Date   

Re: Bonding and grounding on Maramu

karkauai
 

You are seeing the grounding plate)cables for the SSB counterpoise.  The copper strap in the bilge is the keel connection to the bonding system and zincs (assuming it is like the SM) which connects to the zincs via the rudder post.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy

On Feb 22, 2020 4:02 PM, "smiles bernard via Groups.Io" <smilesbernard@...> wrote:

Hello folks

I’m just in the process of replacing the keel bolt bonding strap on my 1985 Maramu.

It’s led to some head scratching re bonding and grounding and the wiring runs on these lovely boats.

SeaLove has a copper ground plate on the skeg. I assume my radar is grounded to this. Perhaps also my furuno weatherfax etc

Can anyone be kind enough to explain where the connection to the ground plate typically surfaces?

Also to check my assumptions re the bonding system setup. . . .
I think  all bonding cables run onto a connection in the transom as per the photo attached



It ‘looks’ like this copper plate is glasses into the hull and runs down the transom to surface near the rudder via the two tubes shown on the left in the photo below :


For some reason this surfaces as 2 separate cables that then are both connected to the rudder stock, and hence the anode on the rudder :




Does  this bonding setup look about right ?

Slightly confused as to why there are 2 cables here ?


Many thanks in advance

Miles
Maramu 162





Bonding and grounding on Maramu

smiles bernard
 

Hello folks

I’m just in the process of replacing the keel bolt bonding strap on my 1985 Maramu.

It’s led to some head scratching re bonding and grounding and the wiring runs on these lovely boats.

SeaLove has a copper ground plate on the skeg. I assume my radar is grounded to this. Perhaps also my furuno weatherfax etc

Can anyone be kind enough to explain where the connection to the ground plate typically surfaces?

Also to check my assumptions re the bonding system setup. . . .
I think all bonding cables run onto a connection in the transom as per the photo attached



It ‘looks’ like this copper plate is glasses into the hull and runs down the transom to surface near the rudder via the two tubes shown on the left in the photo below :


For some reason this surfaces as 2 separate cables that then are both connected to the rudder stock, and hence the anode on the rudder :




Does this bonding setup look about right ?

Slightly confused as to why there are 2 cables here ?


Many thanks in advance

Miles
Maramu 162


Re: Headliner fix

Chip Beaman
 

Joel,
WOW I knew there were health risks associated with the removal. Did not know it was that bad. Your first hand knowledge of this is very powerful, thank you for that response and warning. I will remember that always and pass it on.

I am of the opinion that the plywood that was placed over the vynal to avoid/defer the removal is not a bad solution. I’m of equal opinion, at some point it must be addressed.
I am guessing the replacement is not a cheap date.

Thank you again for your response.

Chip
Future Amel Owner


Re: Headliner fix

amelforme
 

Here is some helpful information regarding the headliner with the foam backing.

FIRST AND FOREMOST. THIS STUFF IS DEADLY POISONOUS AS IT IS MADE OF POLYURETHNE. IT TURNS INTO A FINE DUST AS IT DRIES OUT AND CRUMBLES. ONE NEEDS TO WEAR AN APPROPRIATE RESPIRATOR AND USE EYE PROTECTION AND PROTECTIVE CLOTHING TO PREVENT SEVERE HEALTH COMPLICATIONS. YEARS AGO, I WAS INVOLVED IN WORKING OUT A PROCESS TO REHANG THE FALLING VINYL AS MANY OF THE  AMEL BOATS I WAS RESELLING HAD THIS CHALLENGE.  ON THE VERY FIRST JOB AFTER TAKING DOWN THE HEADLINER, I GOT VERY ILL AND MY 65 YEAR OLD  EXPERT YINYL HANGER ENDED UP IN THE HOSPITAL AND ALMOST DIED. I CANNOT OVEREMPHACIZE THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS AND TAKE EVERY PRECAUGHTION TO NOT BREATHE OR IN ANYWAY INJEST IT OR GET IT IN YOUR EYES. I ENDED UP DOING THREE OR FOUR BOATS PERSONALLY WITH HELPERS ,AND SUPERVISED ANOTHER TWENTY OR SO BOATS OVER THE YEARS.  Working during the hot and humid Florida summer wearing a respirator and a plastic full coverage overall suit was not anywhere near as uncomfortable as getting sick from this stuff. BE CAREFUL.

As further caution, in the early days of polyurethane paint, the warnings on the cans said, " Do not use this product without a respirator and appropriate protective clothing. It will kill you."  I remember asking the paint foreman at the yard I used in San Diego ( Kettenburg's , remember them? Condominiums are there now ) what was with that warning. He said the paint distributor told him a lot of the older paint sprayer specialists got very sick and died because they did not pay attention to a milder warning about 'serious health risks’ and the paint makers were tired of being sued. I am as serious as a heart attack, the dust from the poly foam will make you wish you had been more careful. I was sick for a month.

I have written about this before on the  Amel owners group site and there are several ways to accomplish a good and attractive repair. Here is the most important background information. Every Kirk, Sharki, Maramu, Mango, Santorin and Super Maramu built prior to about February 2006 had the polyurethane foam backing on the headliner. Boats built after that had an organic spun cotton/felt backing which does not deteriorate with thermal cycling that occurs with each sun up/sun down. I have yet to see any of the boats with the felt backing have anything more than minor problems with adhesion and it won’t try to kill you when you work with it like polyurethane will.

Again, there are several ways to get a good repair, dependent on if the original vinyl hasn’t been ruined with attempts to re-hang it with glues that ‘melt’ it. If you must replace the vinyl, I would suggest cotton backed material as it does not deteriorate like most every kind of plastic foam will.

 

All The Best, Joel      

 

       JOEL F. POTTER-CRUISING YACHT SPECIALIST~L.L.C.

                                           THE  EXPERIENCED AMEL GUY

UNSURPASSED AMEL MARKETING EXPERIENCE AND PRODUCT KNOWLEDGE

                                   Office 954-462-5869  Cell 954-812-2485

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chip Beaman
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2020 11:25 AM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Headliner fix

 

Great comments and advice. Thank you Sir.

 

Chip

Future Amel Owner

 

 

 

 


Re: Headliner fix

 

The issue wasn't that they used foam. The issue was the type of foam and the process of adhering the foam to the vinyl. This is the reason that the problem doesn't exist in later Amel SMs.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020, 10:29 AM Matt Salatino via Groups.Io <helmsmatt=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Many boat manufacturers used similar, foam-backed vinyl. All had sagging issues as a result. None should be using it today, unless they don’t care what happens 8-10 years down the road, after warranties are long gone. On our previous boat (as did many manufacturers), we fixed the problem by removing the panel, removing the vinyl, cleaning the deteriorated foam off both the panel and vinyl, and reflux got with contact cement. Hundreds of boats, if not thousands did this.....

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Feb 22, 2020, at 10:50 AM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Chip,

I normally say something like, "trust the original design." But, "trust" is what got us to this point. I think Henri Amel trusted the polyfoam manufacturers to deliver a good product to the vinyl covering manufacturer. And, I believe that Henri Amel trusted the polyfoam backing on the headliner to last a lot longer, but so did most automobile manufacturers at the same time period.

I really do not have the kind of thermal engineering background to be sure that the following comments are 100% correct, but I believe they are: 
An Amel is an unusually dry boat, however, one can change the original design and unintentionally create barriers that aid/cause moisture to form from condensation because of a difference in temperature. This is sometimes inadvertently done by modifying refrigeration or air conditioning, and I assume could be done by adding a non-breathing barrier to the ceiling where the outside temperature and inside temperature can merge to create condensation. I believe that I am correct when I say that most boat builders use materials that breathe in these situations (including the foam layer on the backside of the vinyl in an Amel).

I suggest recovering the ceiling with a foam-backed vinyl from a "trusted source."

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar
cloudHQPowered by
cloudHQ


On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 9:17 AM Chip Beaman <chip@...> wrote:
Thank you Bill, I have read and spoke to folks about the daunting task of headliner replacement. To do it right, replacing the headliner is the right thing to do, I guess, that’s what I am trying to find out. The current owner did a fantastic job covering it and I love the look of it. My great concern, is mold growth in areas of higher humidity. Mold mitigation strategies are a given, regardless of the current liner solution. I just don’t know if it is a bridge to far to expect normal processes to keep mold from growing between the old liner and the covering material (painted plywood)???????
Thank you Sir for all you do.

Chip
Future Amel Owner







Re: Headliner fix

Matt Salatino
 

Many boat manufacturers used similar, foam-backed vinyl. All had sagging issues as a result. None should be using it today, unless they don’t care what happens 8-10 years down the road, after warranties are long gone. On our previous boat (as did many manufacturers), we fixed the problem by removing the panel, removing the vinyl, cleaning the deteriorated foam off both the panel and vinyl, and reflux got with contact cement. Hundreds of boats, if not thousands did this.....

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Feb 22, 2020, at 10:50 AM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Chip,

I normally say something like, "trust the original design." But, "trust" is what got us to this point. I think Henri Amel trusted the polyfoam manufacturers to deliver a good product to the vinyl covering manufacturer. And, I believe that Henri Amel trusted the polyfoam backing on the headliner to last a lot longer, but so did most automobile manufacturers at the same time period.

I really do not have the kind of thermal engineering background to be sure that the following comments are 100% correct, but I believe they are: 
An Amel is an unusually dry boat, however, one can change the original design and unintentionally create barriers that aid/cause moisture to form from condensation because of a difference in temperature. This is sometimes inadvertently done by modifying refrigeration or air conditioning, and I assume could be done by adding a non-breathing barrier to the ceiling where the outside temperature and inside temperature can merge to create condensation. I believe that I am correct when I say that most boat builders use materials that breathe in these situations (including the foam layer on the backside of the vinyl in an Amel).

I suggest recovering the ceiling with a foam-backed vinyl from a "trusted source."

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar
cloudHQPowered by
cloudHQ


On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 9:17 AM Chip Beaman <chip@...> wrote:
Thank you Bill, I have read and spoke to folks about the daunting task of headliner replacement. To do it right, replacing the headliner is the right thing to do, I guess, that’s what I am trying to find out. The current owner did a fantastic job covering it and I love the look of it. My great concern, is mold growth in areas of higher humidity. Mold mitigation strategies are a given, regardless of the current liner solution. I just don’t know if it is a bridge to far to expect normal processes to keep mold from growing between the old liner and the covering material (painted plywood)???????
Thank you Sir for all you do.

Chip
Future Amel Owner







Re: Headliner fix

Chip Beaman
 

Great comments and advice. Thank you Sir.

Chip
Future Amel Owner


Re: Headliner fix

 

Chip,

I normally say something like, "trust the original design." But, "trust" is what got us to this point. I think Henri Amel trusted the polyfoam manufacturers to deliver a good product to the vinyl covering manufacturer. And, I believe that Henri Amel trusted the polyfoam backing on the headliner to last a lot longer, but so did most automobile manufacturers at the same time period.

I really do not have the kind of thermal engineering background to be sure that the following comments are 100% correct, but I believe they are: 
An Amel is an unusually dry boat, however, one can change the original design and unintentionally create barriers that aid/cause moisture to form from condensation because of a difference in temperature. This is sometimes inadvertently done by modifying refrigeration or air conditioning, and I assume could be done by adding a non-breathing barrier to the ceiling where the outside temperature and inside temperature can merge to create condensation. I believe that I am correct when I say that most boat builders use materials that breathe in these situations (including the foam layer on the backside of the vinyl in an Amel).

I suggest recovering the ceiling with a foam-backed vinyl from a "trusted source."

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar
cloudHQPowered by
cloudHQ


On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 9:17 AM Chip Beaman <chip@...> wrote:
Thank you Bill, I have read and spoke to folks about the daunting task of headliner replacement. To do it right, replacing the headliner is the right thing to do, I guess, that’s what I am trying to find out. The current owner did a fantastic job covering it and I love the look of it. My great concern, is mold growth in areas of higher humidity. Mold mitigation strategies are a given, regardless of the current liner solution. I just don’t know if it is a bridge to far to expect normal processes to keep mold from growing between the old liner and the covering material (painted plywood)???????
Thank you Sir for all you do.

Chip
Future Amel Owner







Re: Headliner fix

Chip Beaman <chip@...>
 

Thank you Bill, I have read and spoke to folks about the daunting task of headliner replacement. To do it right, replacing the headliner is the right thing to do, I guess, that’s what I am trying to find out. The current owner did a fantastic job covering it and I love the look of it. My great concern, is mold growth in areas of higher humidity. Mold mitigation strategies are a given, regardless of the current liner solution. I just don’t know if it is a bridge to far to expect normal processes to keep mold from growing between the old liner and the covering material (painted plywood)???????
Thank you Sir for all you do.

Chip
Future Amel Owner


Re: Headliner fix

Chip Beaman
 

Thank you Bill, I have read and spoke to folks about the daunting task of headliner replacement. To do it right, replacing the headliner is the right thing to do, I guess, that’s what I am trying to find out. The current owner did a fantastic job covering it and I love the look of it. My great concern, is mold growth in areas of higher humidity. Mold mitigation strategies are a given, regardless of the current liner solution. I just don’t know if it is a bridge to far to expect normal processes to keep mold from growing between the old liner and the covering material (painted plywood)???????
Thank you Sir for all you do.

Chip
Future Amel Owner


Re: Headliner fix

 

The reason earlier model Amels had sagging headliner was that after about 15 years the foam backing on the vinyl disintegrated. The glue was attached to the foam. 

The best way to repair this is to remove all of the old and then glue new foam-backed vinyl in place. Hint: in some cases you will be able to use the old vinyl as a pattern. This is a difficult and tedious process. Experience and patience are two important tools. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   


On Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 11:24 PM Chip Beaman <chipfrog128@...> wrote:
A 1982 Maramu in low humidity area, headliner sagging.  The fix, cover the inside cabin overhead along with the sagging headliner with painted plywood. 
It looks nice, but my question is-
 
If the boat goes to an area with higher humidity, would mold be a concern between the plywood, old headliner and cabin top????
 
I think it would be, but I don’t know that for fact.  If you have any experience with this please pipe in. 
 
Thank you
Chip Beaman
Future Amel Owner 


Re: Size of main anchor for Super Maramu

Ian Park
 

Paul,
Unless they have changed the design, the Spade has a hollow shank to maximise the lead weighted tip. Mine bent, but maybe that was a one off. I changed to a Rocna after that. Otherwise the Spade held very well.
Ian

Ocean Hobo SN96


Re: Size of main anchor for Super Maramu

Paul Osterberg
 


Pat
We will replace our 40 kg Rocna. The two first year we were super pleased with the performance we had encounter several bad gale nights without moving an inch, but the last year we have noticed that when wind shift 180 degree we have dragged even at moderate winds, that has happened during several occasions, I have googled and found several post about the relatively poor reseting properties of the Rocna. My next anchor will be a Spade.
Paul on SY Kerpa SM#259


Headliner fix

Chip Beaman
 

A 1982 Maramu in low humidity area, headliner sagging.  The fix, cover the inside cabin overhead along with the sagging headliner with painted plywood. 
It looks nice, but my question is-
 
If the boat goes to an area with higher humidity, would mold be a concern between the plywood, old headliner and cabin top????
 
I think it would be, but I don’t know that for fact.  If you have any experience with this please pipe in. 
 
Thank you
Chip Beaman
Future Amel Owner 


Re: Converting my Amel 54 to lithium batteries: what I did, what I like and what I don't like (after one year of full time live aboard use)

Colin - ex SV Island Pearl
 

Greetings Scott

We are moving Island Pearl II from AGM to Lithium this week here in Australia, so I just wanted to shout out to you with a huge thanks for all your hard work here and for sharing. It has been a huge help to us!

Our system will not be as complex as yours, and particularly we have decided to go with 24v Lithium batteries instead of connecting banks of two 12v's in series, and we already had the Victron 3000w/70amp Multi Inverter/Charger installed in the "ex wet locker" (our cockpit is fully enclosed so the Admiral never allows wet gear downstairs anyway!). Even on the old AGM's at 450amp hrs capacity, we have never experienced any heating problem with this unit situated there, and we particularly placed it there due to advice about placing it closer to the battery banks. This also had the advantage to us of having both Dolphin chargers still available too as a backup. With 1040w solar, plus two Rutland 1200 wind gens, we have frequently run 3 x full 6.5kg loads in the clothes washer in a single hot sunny day on the batteries alone, but to get to this we had to replace the old Thompson washer with the latest Bosch model 6.5kg washer last year. We don't normally like to run the rear aircon on the inverter for long but now with Lithium we think that would be a real possibility too!

Since we were almost completely running on nature alone before with this existing setup, we very much hope that the switch to 4 x 100Amp hr 24v LifePo4 batteries will be the absolute end of us ever needing the Genset, other than to give it it's normal once two weekly run to ensure we don't "lose it through not using it!"

Wishing you and Mia a wonderful cruising season this year and we do hope to catch up with you if and when you ever sail into Brisbane, Australia.

Best regards

Colin & Lauren Streeter
SV Island Pearl II SM#332
Newport Marina, Brisbane, Australia





On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 11:17 AM Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:
One more thing - I know of another A54 owner who has the 3kva inverter and he stated that it won't run his clothes washer. This is a big surprise to me because my Beko is rated for around 1500 watts I believe. But I guess the startup spike is too high for a 3kva.

Running the washing machine's 3.5 hour program on battery/inverter vs. having to run the genset for that long is one of the reasons I got lfp, so you might want to consider that.
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com



--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445


Re: Converting my Amel 54 to lithium batteries: what I did, what I like and what I don't like (after one year of full time live aboard use)

Scott SV Tengah
 

One more thing - I know of another A54 owner who has the 3kva inverter and he stated that it won't run his clothes washer. This is a big surprise to me because my Beko is rated for around 1500 watts I believe. But I guess the startup spike is too high for a 3kva.

Running the washing machine's 3.5 hour program on battery/inverter vs. having to run the genset for that long is one of the reasons I got lfp, so you might want to consider that.
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Converting my Amel 54 to lithium batteries: what I did, what I like and what I don't like (after one year of full time live aboard use)

Scott SV Tengah
 

Good timing on your question. I have figured out a way to have the Victron BMS control the Mastervolt Reg-on wire. I purchased this solid state relay at the suggestion of Peter Kennedy (PKYS):

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Crydom/DC60S3?qs=mNyg5qXQ%2FsdpD8JEee%252BrpQ%3D%3D&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsruU14Da4AIVEo_ICh1PFARyEAYYBSABEgIUS_D_BwE

It is very low current draw so the Victron BMS successfully triggers it. However, as a solid state relay, there's around a 1 volt drop across the relay! So I ended up up adding two more Hella relays. Excuse my layman's explanation but this is how it works:

1) The Crydom solid state relay coils are triggered by the Victron BMS. As you may recall, the Victron BMS sends a voltage-high on the charge disconnect wire (a bit less than battery voltage) when all is good and then goes open circuit when there's a problem and charging needs to be stopped.

So I have this charge disconnect trigger the solid state relay. 

2) Because the reg-on wire is also the alternator voltage sense wire, the 1 volt drop across the Crydom relay isn't acceptable. So the load circuit (is that the right term? I'm talking about what is passed through when the Crydom relay is closed) controls a 24v Hella relay's coils. The 24v Hella relay connects battery positive to the reg-on of the Mastervolt. So when the BMS is happy, this 24v relay provides the battery voltage to the reg-on wire, which turns on the Alpha Pro and allows the alternator to charge but also provides the voltage sense to the regulator. We'll call this Relay2

3) However, I didn't want that 24v hella relay triggered 99.999% of the time, which it would be because 99.999% of the time, the Victron BMS charge disconnect "all is ok" signal would activate the Crydom relay and consequently activate the 24v Hella relay. So, to solve this problem, I added a 12v relay that is controlled by the Volvo ignition. We'll call this Relay3.  It's easy to get that because the original Amel setup has a 12v relay there already, so I just spliced off that. When the ignition is on, the 12v relay closes and pass through 24v, which is used to power Relay2. In that way, Relay2 is only energized/activated when the ignition switch is on.

I hope this makes some sense and perhaps if you do understand it, you could make an electrical diagram that explains it to others in a simple way.

Note: The Crydom's terminals are exposed, as you can see. I put liquid electrical tape over the whole thing to protect it. Your ELK-924 relay seems to be a good solution too. I didn't see a voltage drop across the relay, so maybe that allows you to get rid of what I call Relay2. However, I think the Crydom is bi-stable and I believe it draws little to no current when activated. Not sure about your proposed relay.

I noticed you don't have an external BMS. I suppose the Battle Born batteries have an internal BMS that disconnects the battery when it detects overly high or overly low voltage? My understanding is that if your chargers (alternator/solar/multiplus) can get damaged if they are outputting a lot of current and you suddenly disconnect the battery. The way the Victron VE.BUS BMS charge disconnect works is that it tells the chargers to stop charging. Seems the Battle Born system just disconnects the batteries and does nothing to turn off the chargers? Maybe that is ok, but you will need to investigate.

New Improvements

I have installed two simple switches to control my Victron Quattro. Pretty sure you can do the same with the Multiplus

1) The first switch is to turn the charging portion of the Quattro on/off. I run the VE-Config software and added an assistant called "charge current control". The switch simply passes through 24v that I got near the autopilot above the galley sink and goes to an Aux Input 1 on the Quattro. The charge current control assistant then dictates what happens. When the switch is activated, the Quattro charges at 120amps. When it is inactivated, it doesn't charge. This allows me to easily turn off this big load to assist with warm up and cool down of the generator. 
2) The second switch turns the inverter portion on/off. There's a remote switch input built into the Quattro. I measured Quattro inverter's idle consumption to be 40watts! That's nearly 40 amp hours a day! So now we just turn the inverter on when we need it. Sure, you can get the $125v Victron control panel to do this, but I find this simpler, cheaper and it doesn't consume energy.


Keeping state of charge low when I leave the boat for extended periods

I think I figured out a way to keep the battery in the healthy SOC range for lithium batteries when I am away from the boat for extended periods. Keep in mind I have 960w of solar, but you can easily apply the same solution if you're just plugged in. When we left the boat over the summer for a month, the batteries sat at 100% for a month in hot Southern Virginia. Not good for the batteries.

When I leave the boat, I will use the BMV-712's built-in bi-stable relay to turn on the inverter (using the remote switch wiring I mentioned above). I have a 220v AC (200w) dehumidifier that will be plugged in. When the BMV-712 hits 65% SOC, it will close the relay. That will turn on the inverter and the humidifier will start running and drawing down the SOC. The relay will stay closed until the battery SOC gets down to 45% and then the relay will open, which then will turn off the inverter. 

I think by using this method, I'll keep the batteries in their optimal 45-65% SOC range and also have the dehumidifier run daily. Win-win. I don't recall you having solar, but you could probably achieve something similar with shore power. Just remember to dial down down your charge current on the Multiplus, otherwise the dehumidifier could never draw down the SOC otherwise.

Generator Start-Stop and "load disconnect"

There's a way to have the BMV-712 trigger the Quattro's programmable relays to start/stop the Onan. I have started to think it through but haven't implemented it yet. I am thinking of having the generator automatically start when the SOC drops below 30%. See the 'Alternatives Using Assistants' by Thierry Cortasa below.

https://www.victronenergy.com/live/auto-generator-start-stop:start

Two differences in my plan:

1) Rather than have voltage trigger the start/stop, I will use the BMV-712 bi-stable built in relay to do that. The output of the BMV-712 relay will go to the Quattro's Aux Input 2. Then I will use the Quattro programmable relay assistants perform the start/stop. I am thinking of having the generator automatically start when the SOC drops below 30% and run the generator until SOC reaches 75%. Note that I can't have this active when I leave the boat for extended periods and setup the BMV-712 to turn on/off the inverter, as described above, since the BMV-712 only has one programmable relay.
2) Another improvement I will make is that I will have the Quattro "Ignore AC" for 30 seconds upon the 30% lower SOC generator startup threshold, to allow the oil to circulate before imposing the huge charging loads. I will do the same when the SOC hits 75% to allow the generator to cool down a bit. 

I have been struggling with the load disconnect and have decided I will not add it. Here's my nightmare scenario: I am sailing at night in 45 knots and focusing intently on keeping us safe. The batteries are severely imbalanced somehow and even at 35% overall state of charge, there is one cell that has dropped below the voltage threshold and triggers the BMS to disconnect the load. At this point, I would lose navigation, autopilot, everything electrical. It's an unlikely scenario, but it could happen and the results could be very unpleasant.

To solve this, I will add the load disconnect as an additional trigger to start the generator. If the Victron BMS load disconnect signal is triggered (aka goes open circuit), it will start the generator and charge the batteries to remove that low cell voltage condition. I think this is far preferable to simply disconnecting all electrical devices because it actually solves the cell low voltage problem.

So the generator start/stop will be triggered by either SOC or the BMS sending a "load disconnect" signal. I just need to figure out a way to make sure I can connect both the BMS load disconnect wire and the BMV-712 relay output to the same Aux Input 2 on the Quattro without causing any trouble. Also need to think it through to ensure that if the BMS triggers a generator start, the BMV-712 relay will still turn off the generator when it hits 75%. Just need to test I guess. Thoughts?

Some thoughts/comments on your choices specifically:

- You will need the Mastervolt Masterbus-USB interface to adjust the charging profile in your alternator. Or just borrow one.
- One advantage of using 12v batteries in serial to create our 24v house bank system is that if you have a problem with the engine/genset battery, you can easily borrow one from the house bank. You won't be able to do that with your 24v Battle Born batteries. That said, one huge annoyance of my system using 12v batteries in serial to create 24v is that, annually, I need to disconnect by batteries and charge them individually to balance them out. The cells in a 12v individual battery will balance automatically but two 12v batteries in serial to make 24v will not balance themselves. 

Maybe a solution for you is to get a backup 12v starter battery that is connected a battery tender that keeps it topped off whenever you run your generator. That way, you have a backup that stays fully charged in case the single engine/genset starting battery fails in the middle of nowhere.

- Your idea of being able to charge and invert simultaneously is good. I was considering doing that by having my Skylla charge and then my Quattro invert to avoid the 50hz/60hz problem you describe. But frankly, we are going through the P-Canal soon and I think most our cruising route will be in 50hz land and in any event, we're rarely at marinas. In Panama/Colombia I got 230v/60hz power, which my appliances don't love. So what I simply did was turn off the 230v outlets and appliances, run the charger for an hour or two to charge the lithiums and then disconnect shore power. That's good enough for us at the moment. Your solution is obviously preferable if you're going to be spending lots of time in 230v/60hz marinas. 

Hope this helps you and everyone else. I welcome comments/criticisms/improvements.


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Size of main anchor for Super Maramu

Matt Salatino
 

Second on those Fatty Goodlander books. The anchoring one is excellent!

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Feb 21, 2020, at 2:36 PM, Porter McRoberts via Groups.Io <portermcroberts@...> wrote:

As important as the anchor...is everything else. It’s a system, and failure suggests “causal reductionism”. The best money spent in my opinion is on “Creative Anchoring” followed by “Stormproofing your boat and crew” both by the very readable Fatty Goodlander.  
PS I routinely abuse our Rocna 40kg with poor technique, low scope, anchoring in crevices, etc. I’m blown away by it’s amazing design. But it do make sure, when wind weather and current will conspire I’ve given the rocna the best chance I can with best technique. Probably the Bugel would have been fine had I been better at technique back when I thought I needed a rocna. 

Porter A54-152. 

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Feb 21, 2020, at 11:06 AM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Pat, I agree completely. I am totally confident that you will be fine, if you have a Rocna, Mantus, Wasi, or any other anchor whose design was  inspired by the design of the Wasi Buegal anchor, and you practice good anchoring procedure.

I am not sure what the percentage is, but I believe that a significant portion of those that blame their anchor should look elsewhere for blame. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 9:47 AM Patrick McAneny via Groups.Io <sailw32=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
It seems that many owners are opting to switch from their Rocna anchors and buy a larger Mantus ,considering the expense ,I am wondering why. Has many of you drug anchor with the Rocna? I never have ,in fact last winter my Rocna held me and a 47' Catana that drug anchor at 4am., hit my boat and then his anchor slid up my chain to my bow , my Rocna 33 held both of us for an hour in 30- 35 kt. winds ,before finally breaking out. I do wish I had the 40 for extra margin ,but given my experience over several years ,I am very confident with the Rocna. I put much more time into anchoring than most ,many just drop the hook,with little scope and rarely back down,especially rental boats ,like this Catana. Its amazing how poorly many people anchor,its no wonder many drag. I try to avoid anchoring behind anyone ,this cat anchored a day after me, about 50 yards in front of me, and didn't feel like moving,wish I had. Repairs are finally going to be done this spring.
Pat
SM #123

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Barter <markbarter100@...>
To: main <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Feb 21, 2020 9:26 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Size of main anchor for Super Maramu

Hi Karen,

I am going to fit the Mantus anchor this Spring. I am also going to fit the Anchor Mate.

There is a port and starboard version of the Anchor Mate. Which version do I need?

Thanks
Mark
--
Mark & Nicky Barter
S/V Nunky
SM 110


Re: Size of main anchor for Super Maramu

Porter McRoberts
 

As important as the anchor...is everything else. It’s a system, and failure suggests “causal reductionism”. The best money spent in my opinion is on “Creative Anchoring” followed by “Stormproofing your boat and crew” both by the very readable Fatty Goodlander.  
PS I routinely abuse our Rocna 40kg with poor technique, low scope, anchoring in crevices, etc. I’m blown away by it’s amazing design. But it do make sure, when wind weather and current will conspire I’ve given the rocna the best chance I can with best technique. Probably the Bugel would have been fine had I been better at technique back when I thought I needed a rocna. 

Porter A54-152. 

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 
Www.fouribis.com

On Feb 21, 2020, at 11:06 AM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Pat, I agree completely. I am totally confident that you will be fine, if you have a Rocna, Mantus, Wasi, or any other anchor whose design was  inspired by the design of the Wasi Buegal anchor, and you practice good anchoring procedure.

I am not sure what the percentage is, but I believe that a significant portion of those that blame their anchor should look elsewhere for blame. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 9:47 AM Patrick McAneny via Groups.Io <sailw32=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
It seems that many owners are opting to switch from their Rocna anchors and buy a larger Mantus ,considering the expense ,I am wondering why. Has many of you drug anchor with the Rocna? I never have ,in fact last winter my Rocna held me and a 47' Catana that drug anchor at 4am., hit my boat and then his anchor slid up my chain to my bow , my Rocna 33 held both of us for an hour in 30- 35 kt. winds ,before finally breaking out. I do wish I had the 40 for extra margin ,but given my experience over several years ,I am very confident with the Rocna. I put much more time into anchoring than most ,many just drop the hook,with little scope and rarely back down,especially rental boats ,like this Catana. Its amazing how poorly many people anchor,its no wonder many drag. I try to avoid anchoring behind anyone ,this cat anchored a day after me, about 50 yards in front of me, and didn't feel like moving,wish I had. Repairs are finally going to be done this spring.
Pat
SM #123

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Barter <markbarter100@...>
To: main <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Feb 21, 2020 9:26 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Size of main anchor for Super Maramu

Hi Karen,

I am going to fit the Mantus anchor this Spring. I am also going to fit the Anchor Mate.

There is a port and starboard version of the Anchor Mate. Which version do I need?

Thanks
Mark
--
Mark & Nicky Barter
S/V Nunky
SM 110


Re: Size of main anchor for Super Maramu

Arnold Mente
 

Hi everyone,
I am now following the discussion about the anchor and the type for a few days. I have had the following anchor types in my 35 years of sailing. CQR, Delta, Bügel and Rocna. I currently have the Rocna 33 kg on my SM. I also drove it on my Benetau 523. I think the discussion is going in the wrong direction. The connection between anchor and chain length and chain dimension is not considered. On a sailing yacht for all areas should be 100 - 120m. The chain length is essential for the horizontal forces on a well buried anchor. Only this interaction is essential for the holding force. You can also use 100 kg anchors and they will break out if there is not enough chain.

Best
Arnold
SV Zephyr
SM 203

Am 21.02.2020 um 18:52 schrieb VICTOR MOLERO <victor.moleroxx@...>:

Hello all.
I am one of those planning to change my current 30 Kg. stainless steel Bugel for a 48 Kg. galvanized Mantus. I confess that I have doubts between Mantus and Rocna because I very much like both. The reason for this change is because I drag anchor in a 35-40 knots wind, although I had 40 meters of chain on a four or five meters mud depth.
But I am open to comments from you, since I don't think I am among the most experienced sailors in this group...
Victor 
SM #314 Alendoy 



--
Arnold
SY Zephyr SM203