Date   

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Digest Number 776

dlm48@...
 

In a message dated 16/03/2006 16:57:19 GMT Standard Time, dlm48@...
writes:

OK TRY THIS


just double or triple that arrangement and connect each 24V bank to the
appropriate buss

i thought T105's were 110 AH my mistook i should have checked but if they
are 220 AH then you have double the capacity :-)

regards

David



damn blast curses yahoo removed my drawing of the battery layout from that
mail i sent

anyone want one mail me direct

GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

regards

David


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Digest Number 776

dlm48@...
 

In a message dated 16/03/2006 15:23:09 GMT Standard Time,
etlindholm@... writes:

David, I agree with your wiring diagram as set forth in the first part of
your email, but I question if I understand your last comment about orienting
the batteries + - then -+ then + - then - +. You end up with two + terminals
and I don't know what voltage. The batteries have to be aligned as in the first
part of your email + - then+ - then+ - then+ -, and you will end up with one
bank of 24 volts, with a + and - terminal to connect to the next bank ++ and
-- to power the boat. 2 banks of 24 volts, and most 6 volt batteries are 220
ah, so one 24 bank should also be 24 volt 220 ah, with the two combined at
440 ah. Eric






OK TRY THIS


just double or triple that arrangement and connect each 24V bank to the
appropriate buss

i thought T105's were 110 AH my mistook i should have checked but if they
are 220 AH then you have double the capacity :-)

regards

David


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] BATTERIES FOR SULAJON SM #347

Horst Pause <horst@...>
 

What batteries do you use? Have they got bolt and nut connectors?



I bought (expensive) Deka Saturated Glass Mat, 12 V, and forgot to
physically disconnect the inverter during a recent 4 month lay-up. This
caused such severe sulphation that the batteries are now for the skip.



The boat is in Sardinia.



Thank you for any information you can give me.



Horst, Maramu 185







________________________________

From: amelyachtowners@...
[mailto:amelyachtowners@...] On Behalf Of Eric Lindholm
Sent: 15 March 2006 03:22
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] BATTERIES FOR SULAJON SM #347



6 volt is the only way to go. you can discharge/ recharge a 6 volt
battery up to 1,000 times compared to a 12 volt, which the best only go
around 250. The plates are twice as thick on the 6 volt. I have used
them for at least 10 years, and would never go back. Two 6 volt
batteries provide almost the same amp hours as a 12 volt 8d, using only
two thirds the space, and they are a lot easier to get in and out of the
boat.
Eric maramu 105

jfolino901 <jfolino901@...> wrote:
HAS ANYONE HAD ANY EXPERIENCE WITH 6 VOLT BATTERIES FOR THE HOUSE
BATTERIES? I HAVE HAD GOOD LUCK WITH ROLLS BATTERIES. I AM NOT IN NEED
YET, BUT WANT TO PLAN FOR THE FUTURE.
JOHN






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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Digest Number 776

dlm48@...
 

i wonder if this will work

-- [6V] ---------- [6V] ----------- [6V] ----------- [6V] ----- 24V 110AH
+ *** - === + *** - === + *** - === + *** -
|| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .||
|| [6V] ---------- [6V] ----------- [6V] ----------- [6V] ----- 24V 110AH
+ *** - === + *** - === + *** - === + *** -
|| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .||
|| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .||
|| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .||
To Positive . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . To Negative
24V buss bar . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24V buss bar --- 24V 220AH

also assuming the 6V bats have a terminal at each end you can orientate the bats + - then - + then + - then - + so that your serial interconnect cables are very very short
regards

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Lindholm <etlindholm@...>
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 18:54:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Digest Number 776

David, I guess I missed the 24 volt question. I just wanted to clarify the
manner in which the batteries are connected. I have seen owners try to connect
all of the negative terminals together, or the supply positive and negative to
terminals used to wire the batteries in series with varying results, ie melted
cables, sparks, or simply a connection to a 6 volt supply. Love this site. Eric

dlm48@... wrote: ah ha but - Bill has a 24 V system on his SM2000 which
is why i posted
what i posted

regards

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Lindholm <etlindholm@...>
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:37:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Digest Number 776

Bill you connect the positive terminal of one battery to the negative
terminal
of another battery, and those two batteries equal one 12 volt battery.
You will
have one positive terminal( which I will call A terminal), and one
negative
terminal(which I will call B terminal) which are not connected to
anything, and
these are your new 12 volt positive and negative terminals. Make up
four sets
like this. Connect the 4 positive A terminals to each other, and the 4
negative
B terminals to each other just like you do your 12 volt batteries, and
then run
this to your battery switch. Use the largest battery cable you can find
for all
connections, this is very important. These batteries have a lot of
power, and
undersized cable will not let you utilize all that is available. Eric

dlm48@... wrote: cunfused i am

you will need FOUR 6V batteries wired in series to produce 24V

if you have EIGHT 6V batteries then you have two sets of 4 series wired
batteries wired in parallel to double the AH capacity

the only new wiring would be the series wiring as in the above example
six short piecies of wire

and so on

regards

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Rouse <@billrouse>
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 11:28:20 -0600
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Digest Number 776

Eric & John,

I am intrigued by this 6 volt option. I have 12 house batteries.

. I assume that you would divide these into 4 parallel wired sets
of
3
batteries with an output of 6 volts per set.

. Then I assume that you would wire 2 of these sets of 3 in series
producing 12 volts and do the same with the other 2 sets of three.

. Lastly I assume that you wire the 2 12 volt pairs in series to
produce
24 volts.

I guess another option would be 3 sets of 4 wired in a series and then
connect the 3 series-wired sets parallel to produce 24 volts?

I assume that either method will require almost all new wiring? Any
input
will be appreciated.

Regards,

Bill Rouse
S/V Security
SM2 #387






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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Digest Number 776

Eric Lindholm
 

David, I guess I missed the 24 volt question. I just wanted to clarify the manner in which the batteries are connected. I have seen owners try to connect all of the negative terminals together, or the supply positive and negative to terminals used to wire the batteries in series with varying results, ie melted cables, sparks, or simply a connection to a 6 volt supply. Love this site. Eric

dlm48@... wrote: ah ha but - Bill has a 24 V system on his SM2000 which is why i posted
what i posted

regards

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Lindholm <etlindholm@...>
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:37:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Digest Number 776

Bill you connect the positive terminal of one battery to the negative
terminal
of another battery, and those two batteries equal one 12 volt battery.
You will
have one positive terminal( which I will call A terminal), and one
negative
terminal(which I will call B terminal) which are not connected to
anything, and
these are your new 12 volt positive and negative terminals. Make up
four sets
like this. Connect the 4 positive A terminals to each other, and the 4
negative
B terminals to each other just like you do your 12 volt batteries, and
then run
this to your battery switch. Use the largest battery cable you can find
for all
connections, this is very important. These batteries have a lot of
power, and
undersized cable will not let you utilize all that is available. Eric

dlm48@... wrote: cunfused i am

you will need FOUR 6V batteries wired in series to produce 24V

if you have EIGHT 6V batteries then you have two sets of 4 series wired
batteries wired in parallel to double the AH capacity

the only new wiring would be the series wiring as in the above example
six short piecies of wire

and so on

regards

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Rouse <@billrouse>
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 11:28:20 -0600
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Digest Number 776

Eric & John,

I am intrigued by this 6 volt option. I have 12 house batteries.

. I assume that you would divide these into 4 parallel wired sets
of
3
batteries with an output of 6 volts per set.

. Then I assume that you would wire 2 of these sets of 3 in series
producing 12 volts and do the same with the other 2 sets of three.

. Lastly I assume that you wire the 2 12 volt pairs in series to
produce
24 volts.

I guess another option would be 3 sets of 4 wired in a series and then
connect the 3 series-wired sets parallel to produce 24 volts?

I assume that either method will require almost all new wiring? Any
input
will be appreciated.

Regards,

Bill Rouse
S/V Security
SM2 #387






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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Digest Number 776

dlm48@...
 

ah ha but - Bill has a 24 V system on his SM2000 which is why i posted what i posted

regards

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Lindholm <etlindholm@...>
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:37:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Digest Number 776

Bill you connect the positive terminal of one battery to the negative terminal
of another battery, and those two batteries equal one 12 volt battery. You will
have one positive terminal( which I will call A terminal), and one negative
terminal(which I will call B terminal) which are not connected to anything, and
these are your new 12 volt positive and negative terminals. Make up four sets
like this. Connect the 4 positive A terminals to each other, and the 4 negative
B terminals to each other just like you do your 12 volt batteries, and then run
this to your battery switch. Use the largest battery cable you can find for all
connections, this is very important. These batteries have a lot of power, and
undersized cable will not let you utilize all that is available. Eric

dlm48@... wrote: cunfused i am

you will need FOUR 6V batteries wired in series to produce 24V

if you have EIGHT 6V batteries then you have two sets of 4 series wired
batteries wired in parallel to double the AH capacity

the only new wiring would be the series wiring as in the above example
six short piecies of wire

and so on

regards

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Rouse <@billrouse>
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 11:28:20 -0600
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Digest Number 776

Eric & John,

I am intrigued by this 6 volt option. I have 12 house batteries.

. I assume that you would divide these into 4 parallel wired sets of
3
batteries with an output of 6 volts per set.

. Then I assume that you would wire 2 of these sets of 3 in series
producing 12 volts and do the same with the other 2 sets of three.

. Lastly I assume that you wire the 2 12 volt pairs in series to
produce
24 volts.

I guess another option would be 3 sets of 4 wired in a series and then
connect the 3 series-wired sets parallel to produce 24 volts?

I assume that either method will require almost all new wiring? Any
input
will be appreciated.

Regards,

Bill Rouse
S/V Security
SM2 #387






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Sailing Sailing yacht Amel Boating sailing

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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Digest Number 776

Eric Lindholm
 

Bill you connect the positive terminal of one battery to the negative terminal of another battery, and those two batteries equal one 12 volt battery. You will have one positive terminal( which I will call A terminal), and one negative terminal(which I will call B terminal) which are not connected to anything, and these are your new 12 volt positive and negative terminals. Make up four sets like this. Connect the 4 positive A terminals to each other, and the 4 negative B terminals to each other just like you do your 12 volt batteries, and then run this to your battery switch. Use the largest battery cable you can find for all connections, this is very important. These batteries have a lot of power, and undersized cable will not let you utilize all that is available. Eric

dlm48@... wrote: cunfused i am

you will need FOUR 6V batteries wired in series to produce 24V

if you have EIGHT 6V batteries then you have two sets of 4 series wired
batteries wired in parallel to double the AH capacity

the only new wiring would be the series wiring as in the above example
six short piecies of wire

and so on

regards

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Rouse <@billrouse>
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 11:28:20 -0600
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Digest Number 776

Eric & John,

I am intrigued by this 6 volt option. I have 12 house batteries.

. I assume that you would divide these into 4 parallel wired sets of
3
batteries with an output of 6 volts per set.

. Then I assume that you would wire 2 of these sets of 3 in series
producing 12 volts and do the same with the other 2 sets of three.

. Lastly I assume that you wire the 2 12 volt pairs in series to
produce
24 volts.

I guess another option would be 3 sets of 4 wired in a series and then
connect the 3 series-wired sets parallel to produce 24 volts?

I assume that either method will require almost all new wiring? Any
input
will be appreciated.

Regards,

Bill Rouse
S/V Security
SM2 #387






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Sailing Sailing yacht Amel Boating sailing

---------------------------------
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---------------------------------


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Digest Number 776

dlm48@...
 

cunfused i am

you will need FOUR 6V batteries wired in series to produce 24V

if you have EIGHT 6V batteries then you have two sets of 4 series wired batteries wired in parallel to double the AH capacity

the only new wiring would be the series wiring as in the above example six short piecies of wire

and so on

regards

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Rouse <@billrouse>
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 11:28:20 -0600
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Digest Number 776

Eric & John,

I am intrigued by this 6 volt option. I have 12 house batteries.

. I assume that you would divide these into 4 parallel wired sets of 3
batteries with an output of 6 volts per set.

. Then I assume that you would wire 2 of these sets of 3 in series
producing 12 volts and do the same with the other 2 sets of three.

. Lastly I assume that you wire the 2 12 volt pairs in series to produce
24 volts.

I guess another option would be 3 sets of 4 wired in a series and then
connect the 3 series-wired sets parallel to produce 24 volts?

I assume that either method will require almost all new wiring? Any input
will be appreciated.

Regards,

Bill Rouse
S/V Security
SM2 #387






Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Digest Number 776

 

Eric & John,

I am intrigued by this 6 volt option. I have 12 house batteries.

. I assume that you would divide these into 4 parallel wired sets of 3
batteries with an output of 6 volts per set.

. Then I assume that you would wire 2 of these sets of 3 in series
producing 12 volts and do the same with the other 2 sets of three.

. Lastly I assume that you wire the 2 12 volt pairs in series to produce
24 volts.

I guess another option would be 3 sets of 4 wired in a series and then
connect the 3 series-wired sets parallel to produce 24 volts?

I assume that either method will require almost all new wiring? Any input
will be appreciated.

Regards,

Bill Rouse
S/V Security
SM2 #387


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] BATTERIES FOR SULAJON SM #347

Eric Lindholm
 

6 volt is the only way to go. you can discharge/ recharge a 6 volt battery up to 1,000 times compared to a 12 volt, which the best only go around 250. The plates are twice as thick on the 6 volt. I have used them for at least 10 years, and would never go back. Two 6 volt batteries provide almost the same amp hours as a 12 volt 8d, using only two thirds the space, and they are a lot easier to get in and out of the boat.
Eric maramu 105

jfolino901 <jfolino901@...> wrote:
HAS ANYONE HAD ANY EXPERIENCE WITH 6 VOLT BATTERIES FOR THE HOUSE
BATTERIES? I HAVE HAD GOOD LUCK WITH ROLLS BATTERIES. I AM NOT IN NEED
YET, BUT WANT TO PLAN FOR THE FUTURE.
JOHN






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BATTERIES FOR SULAJON SM #347

jfolino901 <jfolino901@...>
 

HAS ANYONE HAD ANY EXPERIENCE WITH 6 VOLT BATTERIES FOR THE HOUSE
BATTERIES? I HAVE HAD GOOD LUCK WITH ROLLS BATTERIES. I AM NOT IN NEED
YET, BUT WANT TO PLAN FOR THE FUTURE.
JOHN


Autoprops and revs

ianjenkins1946 <ianjudyjenkins@hotmail.com>
 

I wouldnt rush to give up the Autoprop. Ours is no. AP 3294LH, which was recalled for a new locking plate so we fitted the fixed prop to take us from the Caribbean to Ecuador, involving 6 days of motoring in the Pacific.Unless you put two Amels side by side with the different props its impossible to be sure which gives the better performance but we certainly felt the Autoprop had the edge under power and clearly has less resistance under sail.
We are in Brazil at the moment , between Santos and Rio, good motoring country as there is no wind here. Yesterday we did a little test. Bear in mind that Pen Azen is in full cruising mode, including a 15hp outboard,4 anchors, 500m of shorelines,every locker full to overflowing, 600l water , 350 fuel plus 100l in jerry cans in the lazarette, which also holds the second dinghy whilst we were towing the rib with a 2hp attached.Bimini was down but we had sun awnings up, covering both booms. With minimum wind, (4 knots apparent on the beam), we achieved these knots at these revs
1500--- 5.9
1600 6.0
1700 6.4
1800 6.8
1900 7.1
2000 7.4
2100 7.7
2200 7.8
2300 8.0
2400 8.2
2500 8.3
2600 8.5
2700 8.6
2800 8.7

In each case we took a conservative figure for the speed, taking the first decimal pint, so that if we were doing, say, 7.27 we recorded 7.2. Our top speed was 8.89, the pull of the rib making it inconsistent.
These figures are marginally down on the same test conducted when the boat was new, but we must now have an extra ton of stores on board and we didnt have a rib to tow in those days.
Is the log accurate? In 25,000 miles we have never had any reason to consider it anything other than the most accurate log we have ever had on a boat.
To me , this suggests that certainly the standard Volvo and Autoprop are well matched and maybe the performance of the turbo is the most likely culprit.
Happy motoring! Ian and Judy Jenkins, Pen Azen, SM 302, Ilha Grande, Brazil.


Speed vs RPM, Fuel tank cleaning

John and Anne on Bali Hai <hollamby@...>
 

In previous years I have found my Autoprop severely fouled after
leaving the boat in the water in the winter. This resulted in very
low engine revs until cleared. During the last haul out May 05 I
polished the prop and used Pellerclean. Several times during the
season I found that the engine revs were limited and dived to find
that the prop was fouled but only with lime/coral type encrustation
to a depth of about one eigth of an inch (2-3mm). It was quite hard
to remove and I am not impressed with Pellerclean. The boat spent
all last season in Malta in a marina which is relatively clean as
there are very few live/crap aboard owners. My test for build up is
to motor at full throttle to check that I can get 3,300 rpm. The
lime scale reduced this to about 2,200!I then cut the revs back to
take the unfair load off the engine until I clean the prop.
I have a hose about 10 metres long which I connect to the regulator
on the air bottle and to a spare mouthpiece so that I can deal with
the underside using only fins, wet suit,weight belt and gloves.
So far as carbon build up on the turbo is concerned I follow Yanmars
insructions and before turning off I rev up out of gear to 3,000+
for a few seconds and repeat if necessary to burn off any carbon
which comes out of the exhaust as white smoke. It is then important
to let the engine idle for a few minutes to allow it to cool and
lubricate the turbo.

My last boat had three tubes into the fuel tank, two for fuel out
and return and one for a heater.The fuel out and heater tubes went
into a filter which consisted of two brass plates separated by a
strip of mesh around the edge to act as the filter. A build up of
algae on the filter completely blocked it and it compressed like an
accordian! Luckily the tank was nearly empty so I was able to get at
the filter to remove it and throw it away. I then arranged the fuel
out pipe so that it was a couple of inches above the bottom of the
tank and put the unused heater pipe right down to the bottom of the
tank. This meant that I could connect a plastic tube to the top from
time to time to a small electric pump which was connected to another
tube to discharge the water and other grot into old clear plasic
bottles so that I could see when all the crud had been removed. I
then let the crud settle at the bottom of the bottles and decanted
the clean fuel back into the tank.
I have cleaned out the bottom of my Amel tank a couple of years ago
when it was nearly empty. I did this by removing the inspection
plate and putting a pipe down to the bottom and then pumping out
some of the contents into some big plastic tanks and then scrubbing
the bottom etc of the tank with a paint brush lashed onto end of the
pipe. Note the lashing must be tight and tape must not be used.
The dirty fuel was allowed to settle and most was poured back into
the tank through a Baha filter using only the finest mesh as this
leaves lots of room to avoid over flows, I never use the coarse and
medium mesh filters.I suspect that a prime cause of blockages is
adding algae killer to infected fuel. I now put my long copper tube
down to the very bottom of the tank every year and suck out any
crud/water which has settled whilst the boat is not in use.
One day,when the tank is nearly empty I will drain it and throw away
the internal filter.

Best wishes to all, John, SM 319


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Speed vs. RPM

Krassopoulos Dimitris <dkra@...>
 

I agree that the Autoprop is sensitive to marine growth but any propeller is
I think. Regarding SEAJet product I tried it without any good result. So I
do not recommend it.

My question to John : what was the speed difference with the autoprop and
the fixed propeller?

SM 2000 Alma Libre

Dimitris

-----Original Message-----
From: amelyachtowners@...
[mailto:amelyachtowners@...] On Behalf Of John McDougall
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 2:12 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Speed vs. RPM

Hi Claude & others
My SM2000 no 330 had the Yanmar/Autoprop combination and max revs
would frequently drop to about 1700. This was always cured by
cleaning the prop. My berth is in Antibes and the rate of marine
growth seems very high there for a reason we needn't go into but
let's say the harbour fish are large and fat. Quite expensive as I
don't dive (and certainly wouldn't in the marina!). The prop was
subject to a recall by Bruntons and in May 2004 I had Amel fit the
spare fixed blade prop. This prop is still fitted.

It is difficult to compare the performance of the fixed prop against
the Autoprop but I would say the difference is so slight as to be
unoticeable without making a test under identical conditions. I
agree that the Autoprop is extremely sensitive to fouling and I have
specified a fixed blade prop on my "54" to be delivered at the end
of this month.

Finally, before the fixed prop was fitted I had it treated with
PROPSPEED a silcone based propellor antifouling which works by means
of producing a slippery surface that marine gowth cannot adhere to.
The result was fantastic - the prop was still clean a year later as
opposed needing to be cleaned every couple of months in summer.
Propspeed is very expensive but I believe Seajet Pellerclean to be a
similar product and this has just been rated as the best in March
Yachting Monthly and Motor Boat
magazines. Has anyone tried it?
John McDougall


-- In amelyachtowners@..., Claude Roessiger
<nearlynothing@...> wrote:

I have had no end of trouble with this combination.
Amel aren't playing this straight with us. Every owner
I have met with the Volvo-Auto prop combination has
similar woes. I think the source of the trouble is the
prop. In reverse, do you get 3500 RPM? If so, it says
a lot.
This darned prop (and I have had unsatisfactory
exchanges with Bruntons, the maker) is unbelievably
sensitive. Unless it's polished to perfection, it
seems to just not give power. Expensive as it is, I
think to change it.
At full power the SM ought to give you 8 kts +.
I have had similar woes in waves as you describe, no
power, no speed.
The Volvo turbo-diesel is itself less torquey than a
straight old diesel as in the old Maramus,
bullet-proof engines.
This said, an 80 hp engine should do the job. I think
the prop is suspect.
If anyone has made a prop change successfully, it
would be good to know.
Thanks,
Claude Roessiger


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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Dessalator Water Maker Issues & New Photos

amelliahona <no_reply@...>
 

Steve:

Thanks for your thoughts. I have inquired of several sources about these issues and this
is what I have distilled:

There are two separate phenomenon both of which are applicable to any RO membrane
system:

1. TDS CREEP. Imagine that on once side of the membrane you have very high TDS
(seawater with about 32,000 ppm TDS) and on the other side you have product water with
a TDS of about 400-500 ppm. Water is forced across the membrane by the 55 bar (800
PSI) pressure gradient established by the high-pressure piston pump. This high-pressure
gradient overcomes the natural osmosis and drives the physics of osmosis in the reverse
direction (RO). When the system is shut down the pressure equalizes on both sides of the
membrane but there remains still a very high gradient in solute (TDS) across the
membrane. At this point natural osmosis begins to occur with water being drawn back
across the membrane to the high TDS side in an effort to try to equalize the osmotic
pressure on both sides of the membrane. The longer the membrane sits idle the more
water is drawn back across to the high TDS side. As more and more water is drawn back
across the membrane there is an ever-diminishing amount of pure water on the low TDS
side (but still the same amount of solute) so the TDS measured in ppm actually increases.
When the system is restarted there will be a brief period of relatively high salinity product
water. My experience with my continuous EC meter is that this high salinity, TDS Creep
water with a TDS of about 2500 to 4000, only last less than a minute before it is diluted
with the new 400-500 ppm TDS product water.

2. PRESSURE DEPENDENCY OF PRODUCT WATER TDS. That is, as the pressure of the RO
process is increased the TDS of the product water decreases. This phenomenon is much
less clearly understood. Rod Boreham gave me a similar description to what he gave you
but he also implied that without pressurized water on the chevron seal in the tube that
seawater could leak by. This just didn't seem logical to me for two reasons; a) the chevron
seal that seals the seawater side of the membrane in the tube from the product water side
is very tight. It is all you can do to get the membrane in or out of the tube because it is so
tight. Also, b) the membranes are robotically produced (hence their dramatically reduced
price and better performance than the old style membranes) and the edges and seams are
absolutely sealed. Again, what I can best understand from several sources is that on a
molecular level the angstrom size pores, that allow water to pass and not the solutes,
actually are squeezed even tighter (made smaller) when under pressure and up to the
rupturing pressure of the membrane the pores become smaller and smaller. This allows
less and less solute to pass. All RO membranes exhibit this quality and there is an
optimum pressure for highest quality water and least potential for harm to the membrane.
By running in the green zone the highest quality water will be produced while staying
safely below membrane rupture point.

Related to the salinity sensor and other questions I have raised on this forum regarding
the Dessalator control system suffice it to say that I am still trying to ferret out the truth. I
have been in touch with Amel, Joel, Dessalator and Rod Boreham. I have gone around and
around with Dessalator. Rod has attempted to be helpful but his information comes from
Dessalator and either because of language barriers or just reluctance by Dessalator to be
fully forthcoming he has been unable to come up with a satisfactory answers for me. I
have asked Dessalator for schematics and logic diagrams for their circuit board so that I
might understand the system and know how to trouble shoot it but they tell me that they
have neither available because the board was produced by a subcontractor that is no
longer in business.

This much I know for sure:
1) Amel believed that the system operated as advertised when we took delivery of our
boat. I am still unable to determine if indeed it did live up to Dessalator's claims.
2) There evidently is no way to know if the original equipment salinity sensor is working
correctly or not. The two-minute timer idea may or may not be accurate. I have so far
received no assurance from Dessalator that a properly functioning machine will sense and
divert high TDS water during water production following system start-up.
3) I reiterate my belief that the Dessalator monitoring system cannot be relied on and that
a secondary monitoring system is necessary. I will stick with that statement until
Dessalator or Amel can tell me how one can determine if their original equipment salinity
monitor is functional.
4) Amel has been very good to work with and remains one of the finest companies I have
ever done business with.

Sincerely,

Gary Silver


Gary,

I may have a possible answer to your question about the higher EC reading when the
pressure is below the green range.

According to Rod Boreham, the membranes are not perfectly cylindrical. They have a
slightly larger diameter in the center than at the two ends. The reason for this is to allow
for distortion when the pressure is applied.

The membranes are not constructed by rolling a square sheet of material from one
side to the other. They are rolled corner to corner. This creates angular seams along the
length of the tube. They are actually rolled with enough slack to account for a perfect fit
under pressure. If you run the water maker below the prescribed pressure, you are
squeezing salt water past the unsealed seams. In other words, they have to be fully
pressurized to seal properly. The good news is that your EC appears to be finding it.

Rod was quite emphatic that the Dessalator should only be operated entirely within the
green zone. Any higher or lower will result in problems. You should check with Rod to be
sure though. I think I interpretted his recommendations correctly, but one never knows.

It may also be due to something else entirely, but this seemed to make sense to me.

Regards,

Steve and Donna. SM#340 Summer Love


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Dessalator Water Maker Issues & New Photos

Steve Constantine <maramu_49@...>
 

Gary,

I may have a possible answer to your question about the higher EC reading when the pressure is below the green range.

According to Rod Boreham, the membranes are not perfectly cylindrical. They have a slightly larger diameter in the center than at the two ends. The reason for this is to allow for distortion when the pressure is applied.

The membranes are not constructed by rolling a square sheet of material from one side to the other. They are rolled corner to corner. This creates angular seams along the length of the tube. They are actually rolled with enough slack to account for a perfect fit under pressure. If you run the water maker below the prescribed pressure, you are squeezing salt water past the unsealed seams. In other words, they have to be fully pressurized to seal properly. The good news is that your EC appears to be finding it.

Rod was quite emphatic that the Dessalator should only be operated entirely within the green zone. Any higher or lower will result in problems. You should check with Rod to be sure though. I think I interpretted his recommendations correctly, but one never knows.

It may also be due to something else entirely, but this seemed to make sense to me.

Regards,

Steve and Donna. SM#340 Summer Love



amelliahona <no_reply@...> wrote:
--- In amelyachtowners@..., eric <kimberlite@...> wrote:
24 Feb 2006
Eric:

I purchased 3/8 inch quick connect fittings at Home Depot (white plastic, push together
fitting that are good to 100 psi) and cut the blue 10 mm product water line. There is
virtually no pressure on this line . The sensor for the EC system that I mentioned
previously plumbs into a 1/2 in pipe thread fitting. I bought a 1/2 inch PVC pipe "T"
fitting, and plumbed it with the quick connects. So the sensor is just immersed in the
product water as it flows by. I'll post photos after my next trip. I took 220 volt 50 Hertz
Power from the circuit breaker for the water maker.

I have noticed that upon startup the EC briefly goes to somewhere above 2000
microsiemens but then within 30 seconds it comes down to about 350. If you run the
watermaker below green range pressure the EC is actually higher than if run in the normal
operating range. I don't quite understand that but it is consistent. I inquired of the Wafer
Fire and Ice people that I bought my membranes from and they tell me that this is normal.
They call it TDS creep. Evidently when the system is shut down the high TDS on the sea
water side draws the product water back across the membrane by osmotic pressure. This
then concentrates the solulte in the product water side as more and more water is drawn
back across the membranes. The longer the system sits idle the more TDS creep there is.
So the initial minute or two of product water will be high in TDS (EC). Perhaps that is why
the Dessalator system had a timer. I have spent hours corresponding with Dessalator and
they will not provide me with schematics or a logic diagram for the system. I plan to take
detail digital photos of the circuit boards next month when I get on the boat and reverse
engineer the electronics. It doesn't appear to be that complicated. Dessalator says that
they do have spare logic circuit boards for sale and will install one if I ship my system to
them but they at the same time make no guarantees that the system will behave as
advertised even with a new board installed. This is about the goofiest company policy that
I have ever run across.

Regards, Gary


Gary,
How did you hook the salinity sensor into the watermaker output?
Fair Winds,
Eric
Amel Super Maramu #376 Kimberlite





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Prop Speed & RPM

John McDougall <j.c.mcdougall@...>
 

Additional to last message, it may be of interest that while the
SM2000 was supplied with an Autoprop as standard equipment, together
with a fixed blade prop as a spare, the new 54 is supplied with a
fixed blade prop only. The Autoprop is an extra cost option.


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Speed vs. RPM

John McDougall <j.c.mcdougall@...>
 

Hi Claude & others
My SM2000 no 330 had the Yanmar/Autoprop combination and max revs
would frequently drop to about 1700. This was always cured by
cleaning the prop. My berth is in Antibes and the rate of marine
growth seems very high there for a reason we needn't go into but
let's say the harbour fish are large and fat. Quite expensive as I
don't dive (and certainly wouldn't in the marina!). The prop was
subject to a recall by Bruntons and in May 2004 I had Amel fit the
spare fixed blade prop. This prop is still fitted.

It is difficult to compare the performance of the fixed prop against
the Autoprop but I would say the difference is so slight as to be
unoticeable without making a test under identical conditions. I
agree that the Autoprop is extremely sensitive to fouling and I have
specified a fixed blade prop on my "54" to be delivered at the end
of this month.

Finally, before the fixed prop was fitted I had it treated with
PROPSPEED a silcone based propellor antifouling which works by means
of producing a slippery surface that marine gowth cannot adhere to.
The result was fantastic - the prop was still clean a year later as
opposed needing to be cleaned every couple of months in summer.
Propspeed is very expensive but I believe Seajet Pellerclean to be a
similar product and this has just been rated as the best in March
Yachting Monthly and Motor Boat
magazines. Has anyone tried it?
John McDougall


-- In amelyachtowners@..., Claude Roessiger
<nearlynothing@...> wrote:

I have had no end of trouble with this combination.
Amel aren't playing this straight with us. Every owner
I have met with the Volvo-Auto prop combination has
similar woes. I think the source of the trouble is the
prop. In reverse, do you get 3500 RPM? If so, it says
a lot.
This darned prop (and I have had unsatisfactory
exchanges with Bruntons, the maker) is unbelievably
sensitive. Unless it's polished to perfection, it
seems to just not give power. Expensive as it is, I
think to change it.
At full power the SM ought to give you 8 kts +.
I have had similar woes in waves as you describe, no
power, no speed.
The Volvo turbo-diesel is itself less torquey than a
straight old diesel as in the old Maramus,
bullet-proof engines.
This said, an 80 hp engine should do the job. I think
the prop is suspect.
If anyone has made a prop change successfully, it
would be good to know.
Thanks,
Claude Roessiger


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Speed vs. RPM

ianjenkins1946 <ianjudyjenkins@hotmail.com>
 

Hi Claude and others. Sorry to read of your experience. I dont know if my Bruntons Autoprop is different to yours ( Pen Azen is June 2000, no 302, standard Volvo/Perkins engine) but after nearly 2,000 engine hours, usually cruising at 1900 revs with a burst of 2,800 for about ten minutes every 6 or so hours, I cen happily get 8.6-8.8 knots on a calm day with a full cruising load aboard.
Twice I have had the revs stick at about 2200 in gear even though I was getting 2800 in neutral. On each occasion the boat had just been put in the water after several months ashore. All I did on each occasion was to keep revving up and down for ten minutes or so and the thing cleared itself.
So far, performance hasnt been affected by small amounts of sealife. On one occasion, in UK waters, I couldnt exceed 7 knots at full throttle and on diving I found the prop absolutely covered in barnacles between one and two centimeters across. I was amazed that it functioned at all.
I confess that I have never seen how high I can rev astern, but going ahead I have found nothing to complain of.
Bruntons claim that you should think of changing the bearings after 1000 hours or so. I think this depends on revs and the condition of the water you sail in. I will do it next time the boat is out of the water. Fair winds, Ian and Judy Jenkins, Pen Azen, Rio de Janeiro ( just about the dirtiest water you can find!)

From: Claude Roessiger <nearlynothing@...>
Reply-To: amelyachtowners@...
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Speed vs. RPM
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 09:10:49 -0800 (PST)

I have had no end of trouble with this combination.
Amel aren't playing this straight with us. Every owner
I have met with the Volvo-Auto prop combination has
similar woes. I think the source of the trouble is the
prop. In reverse, do you get 3500 RPM? If so, it says
a lot.
This darned prop (and I have had unsatisfactory
exchanges with Bruntons, the maker) is unbelievably
sensitive. Unless it's polished to perfection, it
seems to just not give power. Expensive as it is, I
think to change it.
At full power the SM ought to give you 8 kts +.
I have had similar woes in waves as you describe, no
power, no speed.
The Volvo turbo-diesel is itself less torquey than a
straight old diesel as in the old Maramus,
bullet-proof engines.
This said, an 80 hp engine should do the job. I think
the prop is suspect.
If anyone has made a prop change successfully, it
would be good to know.
Thanks,
Claude Roessiger


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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com



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S M half model

john martin <symoondog@...>
 

Hello, I just posted a picture of a SM half model on the Amel site under "moondog". Its trully beautiful. It's 2 feet long,made of about 5 different types of wood,has a brass prop.alluminum winches,hatches,cockpit and is made to scale." It is worthy of the wall." It cost a little under $1,500 delivered. It mounts with 2 small bolts thru the wall, and it won"t leave a shadow on the wall if you ever take it down,like a big expensive painting will do. Any one interested I have info. John "Moondog" sm248

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