1. main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
   Date   
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Sink/Shower grey water

Roger Banks <roger.banks@...>
 

Hi Ian

I would agree with you and Judy if the original post was about what
you are suggesting, but I read it differently and was awaiting his
clarification.

By the way, on my Mango, the sink and basins empty through the side,
above the water line, and only the shower goes into the sump by
gravity and is emptied by the bilge pump. I once gave consideration
to recycling and it was from that experience I responded; I realized
I am well off with the Mango arrangement, and could be more so with
yours as you get even more soap regularly neutralizing any bilge
greases. Not sure about food scraps from the sink though, sounds
disgusting and likely to clog the bilge pump; no wonder Judy reports
have to clean out the sump which i don't seem to need to do.

I really don't think it's in the spirit of a forum to browbeat other
respondents, which is likely to frighten them away (not me though, no
worries). Wish I'd had the same level of response when I requested
the section diameter of the forestay recently (twice).

Regards, Roger, Mango 28 Zorba

On 21/09/2007, at 4:28 PM, Ian Shepherd wrote:

Hi Roger,

I am afraid that I am also totally confused by your posts. You seem
to be
confusing two separate areas of marine operation. I too have a
Super Maramu
and have had no problems at all with the great water bilge
arrangement. It's
a blessing to have the shower water go to the grey water bilge by
gravity
rather than run noisy pump out motors. My only complaint about the
system is
that if you forget to operate the manual override switch before
docking, it
can pump out a full bilge when you are not expecting it and in full
view of
the marina. It would have been better to have an 'off' switch as well.

Having spent much time travelling into Australia, I can understand
the over
reaction of the Australian Authorities. From what you say, throwing
scraps
of food over the side to feed the fish may also be a health hazard!
Not in
most parts of the world Mate!

Cheers

Ian SM 414 Crusader

-------Original Message-------

From: Roger Banks
Date: 09/20/07 22:29:18
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Sink/Shower grey water

Aggression I can do without, thanks, go jump down someone else's
throat. Clearly you didn't read my post or spend a moment thinking
about it.

In Australia at least, recycling sink water containing any food is
considered a health risk without treatment, so needs to be let go. So
the question is whether to capture & recycle shower & basin water or
not. Desalinators like to be run as much as possible (see earlier
posts), thus giving fresh water for washing/showering. QED.

Regards, Roger, Mango 28 Zorba

On 21/09/2007, at 3:51 AM, Judy wrote:

I am totally confused by your response regarding grey water. Perhaps
the term needs to be defined. The only marine definition of grey
water that I am familiar with is the water run-off from the showers
and sinks in the head and the galley sink. Toilet water is termed
black water. At least those are the commonly used definitions of
grey
water and black water in the marine industry in the US. In parts of
the Great Lakes, for example, release of any grey water is
banned. In
all US waters the release of black water is banned.

Please explain how using a desalinator avoids the sludge in the
bilge.

As to the original question, we have experienced no problems with
grey
water going to the sump bilge on our Super Maramu. We have not used
nylon stockings or other secondary filtration methods. If not
cleaned
frequently, the sump bilge will stink to high heaven. It must be
cleaned periodically. We have encountered no problems in function
with
the sump bilge as designed by Amel. The original poster might
want to
invest in a wet/dry vac to make cleaning this bilge an easy job.

Judy
S/V BeBe
Amel SM2 #387

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, Roger Banks
<roger.banks@...>
wrote:

Hi Hugh

I considered the subject but abandoned it when I recalled that
grey
water is used mainly to flush toilets and water gardens, the
former
being done with sea water and the latter hardly applies. Use a
desalinator and avoid all that sludge in your bilges.

Regards, Roger, Mango 28 Zorba
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Sink/Shower grey water

dlm48@...
 

DOWN BOY!!!

The only angry aggressive response i have seen is yours - perhaps you want
to take a chill pill OR write in a more lucid and understandable manner. Have
you ever considered that the reason you are not getting the 'right'
responses is that your are posting in a manner that is somewhat confusing - QED

regards

David

In a message dated 20/09/2007 23:27:00 GMT Daylight Time,
roger.banks@mac.com writes:

Aggression I can do without, thanks, go jump down someone else's
throat. Clearly you didn't read my post or spend a moment thinking
about it.

In Australia at least, recycling sink water containing any food is
considered a health risk without treatment, so needs to be let go. So
the question is whether to capture & recycle shower & basin water or
not. Desalinators like to be run as much as possible (see earlier
posts), thus giving fresh water for washing/showering. QED.

Regards, Roger, Mango 28 Zorba
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Sink/Shower grey water

Ian Shepherd
 

Hi Roger,

I am afraid that I am also totally confused by your posts. You seem to be
confusing two separate areas of marine operation. I too have a Super Maramu
and have had no problems at all with the great water bilge arrangement. It's
a blessing to have the shower water go to the grey water bilge by gravity
rather than run noisy pump out motors. My only complaint about the system is
that if you forget to operate the manual override switch before docking, it
can pump out a full bilge when you are not expecting it and in full view of
the marina. It would have been better to have an 'off' switch as well.

Having spent much time travelling into Australia, I can understand the over
reaction of the Australian Authorities. From what you say, throwing scraps
of food over the side to feed the fish may also be a health hazard! Not in
most parts of the world Mate!

Cheers

Ian SM 414 Crusader

-------Original Message-------

From: Roger Banks
Date: 09/20/07 22:29:18
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Sink/Shower grey water

Aggression I can do without, thanks, go jump down someone else's
throat. Clearly you didn't read my post or spend a moment thinking
about it.

In Australia at least, recycling sink water containing any food is
considered a health risk without treatment, so needs to be let go. So
the question is whether to capture & recycle shower & basin water or
not. Desalinators like to be run as much as possible (see earlier
posts), thus giving fresh water for washing/showering. QED.

Regards, Roger, Mango 28 Zorba

On 21/09/2007, at 3:51 AM, Judy wrote:

I am totally confused by your response regarding grey water. Perhaps
the term needs to be defined. The only marine definition of grey
water that I am familiar with is the water run-off from the showers
and sinks in the head and the galley sink. Toilet water is termed
black water. At least those are the commonly used definitions of grey
water and black water in the marine industry in the US. In parts of
the Great Lakes, for example, release of any grey water is banned. In
all US waters the release of black water is banned.

Please explain how using a desalinator avoids the sludge in the bilge.

As to the original question, we have experienced no problems with grey
water going to the sump bilge on our Super Maramu. We have not used
nylon stockings or other secondary filtration methods. If not cleaned
frequently, the sump bilge will stink to high heaven. It must be
cleaned periodically. We have encountered no problems in function with
the sump bilge as designed by Amel. The original poster might want to
invest in a wet/dry vac to make cleaning this bilge an easy job.

Judy
S/V BeBe
Amel SM2 #387

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, Roger Banks <roger.banks@...>
wrote:

Hi Hugh

I considered the subject but abandoned it when I recalled that grey
water is used mainly to flush toilets and water gardens, the former
being done with sea water and the latter hardly applies. Use a
desalinator and avoid all that sludge in your bilges.

Regards, Roger, Mango 28 Zorba
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Sink/Shower grey water

Judy Rouse
 

Sorry if you thought my first posting was aggressive because that was
not the intent. But your second posting has me just as totally
confused as your first. I have read both several times and do not
understand what you are saying as regards grey water in an Amel. The
original poster inquired about the Amel standard method of draining
shower and sink water (grey water) into what we call the sump bilge.
He did not mention anything about desalination and I truly don't see
how desalination has anything to do with how the shower and sink
drain-off water is handled. I understand his question to be whether
there is a better method of handling this grey water than the standard
manner in which Amel boats are plumbed to drain to the sump bilge.

Others in the past have posted that they use secondary filtration
systems to prevent small items of trash from entering the sump bilge.
We have had no problems with this and do not use a secondary
filtration system of any kind. Our previous boat drained the galley
sink grey water directly overboard without any pump required, and had
sump pumps to drain the shower and head sink grey water overboard.
Perhaps the original poster was thinking of a similar arrangement, but
our experience with the way Amel does the system of handling grey
water is better than our last boat because the Amel requires only one
sump pump instead of two or more.

Perhaps the original poster could clarify his query.

Judy
S/V BeBe
Amel SM2 #387

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, Roger Banks <roger.banks@...>
wrote:

Aggression I can do without, thanks, go jump down someone else's
throat. Clearly you didn't read my post or spend a moment thinking
about it.

In Australia at least, recycling sink water containing any food is
considered a health risk without treatment, so needs to be let go. So
the question is whether to capture & recycle shower & basin water or
not. Desalinators like to be run as much as possible (see earlier
posts), thus giving fresh water for washing/showering. QED.

Regards, Roger, Mango 28 Zorba



On 21/09/2007, at 3:51 AM, Judy wrote:

I am totally confused by your response regarding grey water. Perhaps
the term needs to be defined. The only marine definition of grey
water that I am familiar with is the water run-off from the showers
and sinks in the head and the galley sink. Toilet water is termed
black water. At least those are the commonly used definitions of grey
water and black water in the marine industry in the US. In parts of
the Great Lakes, for example, release of any grey water is banned. In
all US waters the release of black water is banned.

Please explain how using a desalinator avoids the sludge in the bilge.

As to the original question, we have experienced no problems with grey
water going to the sump bilge on our Super Maramu. We have not used
nylon stockings or other secondary filtration methods. If not cleaned
frequently, the sump bilge will stink to high heaven. It must be
cleaned periodically. We have encountered no problems in function with
the sump bilge as designed by Amel. The original poster might want to
invest in a wet/dry vac to make cleaning this bilge an easy job.

Judy
S/V BeBe
Amel SM2 #387

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, Roger Banks <roger.banks@>
wrote:

Hi Hugh

I considered the subject but abandoned it when I recalled that grey
water is used mainly to flush toilets and water gardens, the former
being done with sea water and the latter hardly applies. Use a
desalinator and avoid all that sludge in your bilges.

Regards, Roger, Mango 28 Zorba



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Sink/Shower grey water

Roger Banks <roger.banks@...>
 

Aggression I can do without, thanks, go jump down someone else's
throat. Clearly you didn't read my post or spend a moment thinking
about it.

In Australia at least, recycling sink water containing any food is
considered a health risk without treatment, so needs to be let go. So
the question is whether to capture & recycle shower & basin water or
not. Desalinators like to be run as much as possible (see earlier
posts), thus giving fresh water for washing/showering. QED.

Regards, Roger, Mango 28 Zorba

On 21/09/2007, at 3:51 AM, Judy wrote:

I am totally confused by your response regarding grey water. Perhaps
the term needs to be defined. The only marine definition of grey
water that I am familiar with is the water run-off from the showers
and sinks in the head and the galley sink. Toilet water is termed
black water. At least those are the commonly used definitions of grey
water and black water in the marine industry in the US. In parts of
the Great Lakes, for example, release of any grey water is banned. In
all US waters the release of black water is banned.

Please explain how using a desalinator avoids the sludge in the bilge.

As to the original question, we have experienced no problems with grey
water going to the sump bilge on our Super Maramu. We have not used
nylon stockings or other secondary filtration methods. If not cleaned
frequently, the sump bilge will stink to high heaven. It must be
cleaned periodically. We have encountered no problems in function with
the sump bilge as designed by Amel. The original poster might want to
invest in a wet/dry vac to make cleaning this bilge an easy job.

Judy
S/V BeBe
Amel SM2 #387

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, Roger Banks <roger.banks@...>
wrote:

Hi Hugh

I considered the subject but abandoned it when I recalled that grey
water is used mainly to flush toilets and water gardens, the former
being done with sea water and the latter hardly applies. Use a
desalinator and avoid all that sludge in your bilges.

Regards, Roger, Mango 28 Zorba
Testing water purity

drdavegoodman
 

Dear Ian and Gary;
I have looked at the Simply Hydroponics website that Gary referred me
to and it did have the answers to my question. So I'm getting one of
the TDS meters--good selection on ebay
Thanks!
Dave

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, amelliahona <no_reply@...> wrote:

DAVID, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A DUMB QUESTION!!!

Here is a site that will hopefully answer your question:

http://www.simplyhydro.com/tds-ec.htm

To quote from that site (which by the way is talking about plant
nutrient solutions, but
which are the same principles as for sea water)

"TDS, EC, PPM, microSiemens: What do all those letters mean?

What is the best way to calibrate a TDS or Ec meter?
Answer: Standard reference solutions are used. The bottles are
marked with the
conductivity (EC) value in microSiemens/cm and the corresponding ppM
values for sodium
chloride (NaCl) and potassium chloride (KCl) solutions, and
sometimes for a "442"
reference mixture. The conductivity of sodium chloride solutions is
close to that of
hydroponic mineral nutrients, so a "1000 ppM NaCl" standard is most
frequently used
when calibrating the meter for hydroponic solutions. You should
follow the calibration
instructions in the manual which the manufacturer of your meter
provided.

What does a TDS or EC meter measure?
Answer: The electrical conductivity (EC) of your nutrient results
from motion of mineral
ions when the meter applies an electrical voltage. The ppM value of
a sodium chloride
solution happens to be very close to half of its conductivity value
(in microSiemens/cm), so
many meters display the conductivity as an equivalent NaCl amount.

What does the term parts per million (ppm) mean?
Answer: It is a common unit for measuring the concentration of
elements in the nutrient
solution. One ppm is one part by weight of the mineral in one
million parts of solution.

How do I convert between TDS and EC readings?
Answer: To obtain an approximate sodium chloride TDS value, multiply
the EC reading (in
microSiemens/cm) by 1000 and divide by 2.

To get an EC value, multiply the ppm reading by 2 and divide by 1000.
Thus, if your EC is 1:
1*1000/2= 500 ppm.
And if your ppm is 500:
500*2/1000= 1 EC

Is it better to use an EC or a TDS meter?
Answer: If you have plant nutrient recommendations in EC units, an
EC meter is
convenient. If your plant nutrient recommendations are in ppM
values, a sodium chloride
TDS calibration is easier to use."

Hope this helps.

My EC meter usually shows about 500-550 microSiemens when the water
maker is
running. It will start out at 550 and fall to as low as 460 after
it has been running
for an hour or so. Water makers work better (at least the membranes
do) when
they are used for prolonged periods frequently. Thus my water maker
TDS readings
should be about 250 ppm.

Regards, Gary Silver, MD

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Goodman"
<drdavegoodman@> wrote:

Forgive my ignorance--What is a TDS reading, and how is it obtained.
Presumably it has to do with water purity?

--
David Goodman
email: drdavegoodman@
cell: 608-772-0634
STT: 340-998-2169


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Sink/Shower grey water

Judy Rouse
 

I am totally confused by your response regarding grey water. Perhaps
the term needs to be defined. The only marine definition of grey
water that I am familiar with is the water run-off from the showers
and sinks in the head and the galley sink. Toilet water is termed
black water. At least those are the commonly used definitions of grey
water and black water in the marine industry in the US. In parts of
the Great Lakes, for example, release of any grey water is banned. In
all US waters the release of black water is banned.

Please explain how using a desalinator avoids the sludge in the bilge.

As to the original question, we have experienced no problems with grey
water going to the sump bilge on our Super Maramu. We have not used
nylon stockings or other secondary filtration methods. If not cleaned
frequently, the sump bilge will stink to high heaven. It must be
cleaned periodically. We have encountered no problems in function with
the sump bilge as designed by Amel. The original poster might want to
invest in a wet/dry vac to make cleaning this bilge an easy job.

Judy
S/V BeBe
Amel SM2 #387

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, Roger Banks <roger.banks@...>
wrote:

Hi Hugh

I considered the subject but abandoned it when I recalled that grey
water is used mainly to flush toilets and water gardens, the former
being done with sea water and the latter hardly applies. Use a
desalinator and avoid all that sludge in your bilges.

Regards, Roger, Mango 28 Zorba
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Sink/Shower grey water

Roger Banks <roger.banks@...>
 

Hi Hugh

I considered the subject but abandoned it when I recalled that grey
water is used mainly to flush toilets and water gardens, the former
being done with sea water and the latter hardly applies. Use a
desalinator and avoid all that sludge in your bilges.

Regards, Roger, Mango 28 Zorba

On 20/09/2007, at 4:26 PM, hughlevins wrote:

Greetings, can I ask advice regarding the routing all sink/shower grey
water into the bilges? This is for a new boat not yet constructed. Is
there a revised arrangement that AMEL might be persuaded to
incorporate
during the construction? Or maybe the current arrangement is not
likely
to be a problem, as I imagine? I understand from previous
correspondance that leaf filters or ladies nylon sock-ends may well be
usefull ideas to retrofit in the future.
Fair winds,
Hugh
Sink/Shower grey water

hughlevins <hlevins@...>
 

Greetings, can I ask advice regarding the routing all sink/shower grey
water into the bilges? This is for a new boat not yet constructed. Is
there a revised arrangement that AMEL might be persuaded to incorporate
during the construction? Or maybe the current arrangement is not likely
to be a problem, as I imagine? I understand from previous
correspondance that leaf filters or ladies nylon sock-ends may well be
usefull ideas to retrofit in the future.
Fair winds,
Hugh
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] HEATERS

brgdebakker
 

Hi Capt Dan,

Last winter I installed a Webasto heater, TP3500, in my Kirk.
If you're interessed I can take pictures and give you some tips and tricks.

Bart
Amel Kirk 146 "Folie à Deux"

----- Original Message -----
From: dan_bergin
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 12:03 AM
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] HEATERS


ANYONE OUT THERE INSTALLED A WEBASTO Hydronic Heater or similar heating
system in their Super Maramu? If so can you fill me in on the do's and
don't's? THANKS
Capt Dan
s/v PAPA II SM #317
captdan@sailpapa.com
801-556-7858





--
Mijn Postvak In wordt beschermd door SPAMfighter.
520 spam-mails zijn er tot op heden geblokkeerd.
Download de gratis SPAMfighter via deze link: http://www.spamfighter.com/lnl


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
HEATERS

dan_bergin <captdan@...>
 

ANYONE OUT THERE INSTALLED A WEBASTO Hydronic Heater or similar heating
system in their Super Maramu? If so can you fill me in on the do's and
don't's? THANKS
Capt Dan
s/v PAPA II SM #317
captdan@sailpapa.com
801-556-7858
[Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Watermaker Dead

amelliahona <no_reply@...>
 

Hi Ian:

Regarding:

"I am careful with o-rings and do clean the groove thoroughly before
smearing them with silicone grease. Amel says that Vaseline will do.
Being petroleum based, I am not so sure. I certainly use silicone
grease on all my diving seals. I know it's safer when in contact with high
pressure air than grease. I would appreciate your thoughts on silicone
versus Vaseline on 0-rings"

I had no doubt that you would be meticulous about your work, I just
couldn't think of other reasons, so I threw it out there. In my aviation
mechanic training I was taught to use silicone grease (we actually
use a 3M product called DC4.) We use silicone in the aviation industry
because it tolerates higher temps without coking (turning to charred
material) like a petroleum distilate will (i.e vaseline). I don't think that
would be an an issue here. So silicone grease it is for me just out of habit.

"The latest failure had never been disturbed by me, being under the
curved end cap bracket that carries the hose connection."

Could it just have been calendar age? Where the o-rings 'checked'
(i.e. cracked) or did they appear to be stiff or in poor condition?

How many sodium metabisulfite (pickling solution) treatments?
(it is a strong oxidizer resulting in corrosion and attack on
seals etc).

"I doubt if my HP gauge is poorly calibrated else the flow rate would
be off the top of the sight tube."

Point well taken. Wish I had better answers. Those darn gremlins
just seem to like our watermakers.

Regards, Gary
Re: Watermaker Dead

amelliahona <no_reply@...>
 

DAVID, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A DUMB QUESTION!!!

Here is a site that will hopefully answer your question:

http://www.simplyhydro.com/tds-ec.htm

To quote from that site (which by the way is talking about plant nutrient solutions, but
which are the same principles as for sea water)

"TDS, EC, PPM, microSiemens: What do all those letters mean?

What is the best way to calibrate a TDS or Ec meter?
Answer: Standard reference solutions are used. The bottles are marked with the
conductivity (EC) value in microSiemens/cm and the corresponding ppM values for sodium
chloride (NaCl) and potassium chloride (KCl) solutions, and sometimes for a "442"
reference mixture. The conductivity of sodium chloride solutions is close to that of
hydroponic mineral nutrients, so a "1000 ppM NaCl" standard is most frequently used
when calibrating the meter for hydroponic solutions. You should follow the calibration
instructions in the manual which the manufacturer of your meter provided.

What does a TDS or EC meter measure?
Answer: The electrical conductivity (EC) of your nutrient results from motion of mineral
ions when the meter applies an electrical voltage. The ppM value of a sodium chloride
solution happens to be very close to half of its conductivity value (in microSiemens/cm), so
many meters display the conductivity as an equivalent NaCl amount.

What does the term parts per million (ppm) mean?
Answer: It is a common unit for measuring the concentration of elements in the nutrient
solution. One ppm is one part by weight of the mineral in one million parts of solution.

How do I convert between TDS and EC readings?
Answer: To obtain an approximate sodium chloride TDS value, multiply the EC reading (in
microSiemens/cm) by 1000 and divide by 2.

To get an EC value, multiply the ppm reading by 2 and divide by 1000.
Thus, if your EC is 1:
1*1000/2= 500 ppm.
And if your ppm is 500:
500*2/1000= 1 EC

Is it better to use an EC or a TDS meter?
Answer: If you have plant nutrient recommendations in EC units, an EC meter is
convenient. If your plant nutrient recommendations are in ppM values, a sodium chloride
TDS calibration is easier to use."

Hope this helps.

My EC meter usually shows about 500-550 microSiemens when the water maker is
running. It will start out at 550 and fall to as low as 460 after it has been running
for an hour or so. Water makers work better (at least the membranes do) when
they are used for prolonged periods frequently. Thus my water maker TDS readings
should be about 250 ppm.

Regards, Gary Silver, MD

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Goodman" <drdavegoodman@...> wrote:

Forgive my ignorance--What is a TDS reading, and how is it obtained.
Presumably it has to do with water purity?

--
David Goodman
email: drdavegoodman@...
cell: 608-772-0634
STT: 340-998-2169


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] watermaker filters

Ian Shepherd
 

Hi John,

Amel told me 25 Micron on the pre filter and 5 Micron on the next filter
(closest to the pump). It's worked well for me though when heeled to port,
the inlet through hull can get uncovered causing a fluctuation of pressure
at times. I did have the water maker circuit breaker trip yesterday as the
boat tacked. This might have bee attributed to interrupted water flow
perhaps?

I believe that the Dessalator manual also recommends 25/5.

Cheers

Ian

-------Original Message-------

From: John and Anne on Bali Hai
Date: 19/09/2007 16:57:47
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] watermaker filters

Perhaps my last message was not clear. It seems to me that if the high
pressure pump produces high pressures on the out side it will produce
huge suction on the in side and if it cannot get water it will destruct
something en route.
It is a pity that the documentation does not suggest the size of
filter and it may well be that 5 micron is also too small.

Best wishes, Anne and John SM 319
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Watermaker Dead

Ian Shepherd
 

Hello David,

I believe that TDS stands for Total Dissolved Solids. Yes it measures the
water purity by immersing two probes in the water and taking a measurement.
Quite what is measured, I don't know. Gary Silver is the man to tell you. I
would guess it is the conductivity of the water?

There are many instruments on the market, some hand held and others in line
with the water maker output hose. Hanna Instruments sell a variety of
instruments, but you need to be careful that you buy one which covers the
correct range of readings applicable to marine water makers. TDS is normally
measured in parts per million or PPM. You want one that will read up to
about 1000 ppm. I got mine on E-Bay.

Hope that this helps.

Ian Shepherd SM 414 Crusader

-------Original Message-------

From: Dr. Goodman
Date: 19/09/2007 19:11:59
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Watermaker Dead

Forgive my ignorance--What is a TDS reading, and how is it obtained.
Presumably it has to do with water purity?

--
David Goodman
email: drdavegoodman@gmail.com
cell: 608-772-0634
STT: 340-998-2169
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Watermaker filters

Ian Shepherd
 

Hi John & Anne,

I am a bit confused as to your two sets of TDS readings. I have never seen
anything as low as 100-200, but somewhere around 550 has been common in the
past. I went to a seminar once in Georgetown Bahamas. The guest from from
HRO water makers. He was asked the same question as you have. He said that
anything up to 900 ppm was OK but if you were in the military, 1000 was
allowed for limited periods. He said readings under 600 indicated that the
system was functioning normally, though better could be expected when the
membranes were new.

Changing the subject John, I went to a chemist this morning in Larnaca to
buy some medicine for my son in England. After being served, I stood at the
counter for a while. The chemist looked up and said "Yes?" I said "I am
waiting for my change". He told me that he had given me the change and sure
enough it was in my pocket. I apologized and asked him if he sold pills for
Altzheimers? He said "Yes, but the problem is that you have to remember to
take the pills!"

It creeps up on us John! Sorry I missed you in Turkey this summer.

Regards

Ian

-------Original Message-------

From: John and Anne on Bali Hai
Date: 19/09/2007 15:33:12
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Watermaker filters

It may or may not be relevant but I replaced the saltwater filters
recently using a 30 and a 3 micron filters. The 3 micron one was too
much drag on flow and resulted in the reading on the top meter to
fluctuate wildly from normal to very low and the sight tube was showing
a continuous flow of bubbles which may perhaps have been air leaks past
the end fittings or somewhere else. I changed the fine filter to a 5
micron one which solved the problem although my ppm meter now shows a
reading of 580 instead of the previous figure of about 450.
I do not know at what level one should worry. the 580 is about the same
as tap water in Malta which is claimed to be safe. We have done a blind
testing with bottled water and neither of us could tell which was which.
When we collected the boat seven years ago Olivier told us not to
bother with sterilising and so we never have without any untoward
effects. The product water at 100 or 200ppm is so pure that it will not
nourish pot plants and indeed we met a French boat in the South Pacific
with a dozen people on board and it was their practice to add sea water
to get some minerals into it.
So we are not psychotic about ppms but wonder at which level bacteria
can pass the membrane.

Must go, time for a drink, regards, Anne and John SM319
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Watermaker Dead

Ian Shepherd
 

Hi Gary,

Thanks for your thoughts. I am careful with o-rings and do clean the groove
thoroughly before smearing them with silicone grease. Amel say that Vaseline
will do. Being petroleum based, I am not so sure. I certainly use silicone
grease on all my diving seals. I know it's safer when in contact with high
pressure air than grease. I would appreciate your thoughts on silicone
versus Vaseline on 0-rings. What I have not previously done is to run a pick
around under the seal. A good tip. I do however look at them carefully with
a magnifying glass before pushing the bobbin back into the end cap.

The latest failure had never been disturbed by me, being under the curved
end cap bracket that carries the hose connection. There did appear to be
some erosion of the lower seal in line with where the end cap material had
been washed away. Whether this was from escaping water or a badly fitted
seal is a matter of conjecture.

I doubt if my HP gauge is poorly calibrated else the flow rate would be off
the top of the sight tube. I adjust the pressure so that I achieve 160 l/h
(in warm water). The needle is usually about one third up the green band on
the HP gauge.

Regards

Ian

-------Original Message-------

From: amelliahona
Date: 19/09/2007 04:28:14
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Watermaker Dead

Hi Ian:

Thanks for your input. Regarding:

"To be exact, yet another leaking end cap, this time at the hose
connection end. Water had got pass the two 1.5mm x 9mm o-rings
and eroded the nylon, creating a serious leak. This was my 5th end
cap failure in just over 200 hours of operation! My end caps are
white. Has anyone else had a similar problem? Amel say that it is
very rare! I don't believe them."

I am not sure why you are having such leakage problems.

I have had no leaks from my end caps. My first set of end caps where
white plastic (?nylon) (see photo's in the photo section where I am
trying to remove the white end caps). They looked pristine when
removed during the replacement of my membranes that failed at
the 185 hour mark. I replaced the end caps anyway at the suggestion
of Amel's Olivier Beatue at that time (185 hours). I ordered the end
caps from Dessalator and received the black caps depicted in the
photo's section. I currently only have about 240 hours on the water
maker but I am still leak free.

Just a thought. Could it be that you got a batch of poor guality
o-rings? This might explain the recurrent leaks. The other
possibility is that the o-rings aren't seating well when installed.
Perhaps they have a twist in them?

When I install aircraft o-rings I lube them with a silicone lube, then
after meticulous cleaning of the o-ring groove, I roll the o-ring
into the groove. I then use a plastic pic to to lift a point on the
o-ring circumference and run the pic around the circumference
a couple of times to insure there are no twists.

Is it possible that your high pressure gauge is out of calibration
and the system is being over pressurized? Not sure if any of
these things are the actual cause but it certainly seems that you
are suffering from a higher failure rate than I have experienced
or heard about.

Regards, Gary
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Watermaker Dead

Ian Shepherd
 

Hi Bill & Judy,

Thank you for your quick response. I did not believe for one moment that I
was alone in experiencing this type of failure. Let's hope the black
material is more resilient. My latest leak occurred from the end hose
fitting bobbin, which is as you know, under the screw on curved bracket.
That is an area that I have never had to disturb when changing membranes, so
I am concerned at the design.

Whilst seeking a replacement end cap in Marmaris last August, I looked at
many other makes of designators. All of them had heavy duty machined end
caps, and the interconnection was achieved through a reinforced hose with
proper screw in fittings. I also believe that when I looked over the
prototype Amel 54 last September, the water maker installed was also of a
much more robust design. I am not certain, but it might well have been made
by Dessalator.

Quite why we ended up with what we have is a bit of a mystery. Were we early
on in the evolution of the product, or was this a non standard design
instigated by Amel's war on electrolysis perhaps? Maybe someone out there
knows?

Your TDS readings are lower than mine, as are John Hollanby's. This could be
due to residual preservative chemicals from the new membranes even after 30
minutes washing, or a difference in the calibration of our TDS meters. The
water passes the new boards specifications and I know that the new board is
picky when it comes to allowing good water into the tank.

Fair Winds

Ian SM 414 Crusader

-------Original Message-------

From: Judy
Date: 09/19/07 00:48:15
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Watermaker Dead

Ian,

Our endcaps on our 160 liter watermaker failed at about 180 hours
(almost 4 years). Your endcap failure sounds similar manner to ours.
The o-rings on the high pressure fittings ('salt water in' and the
'interconnect bobbin')on the endcaps failed and water eroded the
(white) nylon causing a leak. This was our only failure in less than
200 hours of operation. We bought replacement endcaps from
Dessalator. The replacements are black. We now have 284 hours on the
system.

We have been getting between 130 and 200 TDS readings since the
replacement of the membranes which came from AirWaterIce. The longer
the system runs the less TDS.

We should note that we have a manual diverter valve and we discard the
first several minutes of product water until the TDS reading moves
below 200. We always check the TDS before we shut the system down and
usually have a reading of less than 140...in other words TDS does
improve the longer the system runs. A TDS reading from our fresh
water tank is usually about 135.

Regards,

Bill Rouse, sailing with captain Judy
s/v BeBe, SM2 #387

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Shepherd"
<sv_freespirit@...> wrote:

Hi Gary,

I managed to run the water maker fitted with the new control board today
with a brand new set of membranes. The unit worked fine as far as the
electronics were concerned, giving a green light after exactly 2
minutes of
high pressure operation. You will recall I said that I said that
they built
a two minute delay into the new board for commonality with the old
board.
The TDS reading of the water produced was 340 ppm which is marvelous
compared with an off scale reading on the failed membranes.

So the board did previously do exactly what it was supposed to do.
It dumped
the water overboard as soon as it detected a problem with my
membranes and
activated the bad water LED.

I did experience another problem. To be exact, yet another leaking
end cap,
this time at the hose connection end. Water had got pass the two
1.5mm x 9mm
o-rings and eroded the nylon, creating a serious leak. This was my
5th end
cap failure in just over 200 hours of operation! My end caps are
white. Has
anyone else had a similar problem? Amel say that it is very rare! I
don't
believe them.
Re: Watermaker Dead

drdavegoodman
 

Forgive my ignorance--What is a TDS reading, and how is it obtained.
Presumably it has to do with water purity?

--
David Goodman
email: drdavegoodman@gmail.com
cell: 608-772-0634
STT: 340-998-2169
watermaker filters

John and Anne on Bali Hai <annejohn@...>
 

Perhaps my last message was not clear. It seems to me that if the high
pressure pump produces high pressures on the out side it will produce
huge suction on the in side and if it cannot get water it will destruct
something en route.
It is a pity that the documentation does not suggest the size of
filter and it may well be that 5 micron is also too small.

Best wishes, Anne and John SM 319
53541 - 53560 of 56728