Tested our watermaker twice today to time it. Green light comes on
at 1 minute 40 seconds.

We have verified that it does produce 160 lph. We have 108 hours on
the watermaker. It has been pickled many times.

Judy
S/V Security
SM2 #387

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, amelliahona <no_reply@...>
wrote:

18 June 2006

Ian:

The green light on the water maker Does do something. It

illuminates

when the diverter solenoid valve switches from sending the product

water

overboard to sending the water to your tank. This occurs at 55

seconds

after system start (per the on board oscillator timer and totally

unrelated

to anything else). IF ANY AMEL OWNER HAS A SYSTEM THAT DOESN'T
CHANGE TO GREEN AT EXACTLY THE 55 SECOND MARK (+/- a second o
two) PLEASE LET ME KNOW SO THAT WE CAN DETERMINE HOW IT IS
CONNECTED THAT ALLOWS IT TOWORK.

<snip>

18 June 2006

Ian:

The green light on the water maker Does do something. It illuminates
when the diverter solenoid valve switches from sending the product water
overboard to sending the water to your tank. This occurs at 55 seconds
after system start (per the on board oscillator timer and totally unrelated
to anything else). IF ANY AMEL OWNER HAS A SYSTEM THAT DOESN'T
CHANGE TO GREEN AT EXACTLY THE 55 SECOND MARK (+/- a second o
two) PLEASE LET ME KNOW SO THAT WE CAN DETERMINE HOW IT IS
CONNECTED THAT ALLOWS IT TOWORK.

So if the green "Good Quality" LED light illuminates you can rest assured
the water (either salty or fresh) is going to your tank. The green light and
diverter solenoid valve are controlled by the exact same logic circuits and
neither circuit is connected to the salinity sensor circuit (if you can call it
that, since the salinity sensor isn't connected at all and therefore really
isn't a circuit). I have asked myself, "Why have all this circuitry and the
expense of the solenoid valve and plumbing if it isn't going to do anything?"
This is what I don't understand.

I spent an hour on the phone with Rod Boreham, the UK rep for Dessalator
last week. He doesn't know who made the decision to hook the system
up with the salinity sensor out of the circuit. He notes that Dessalator
provides water makers to Beneteau and that they all seem to function as
advertised. If the decision on the Amel model was made on the premise
that it would improve reliability then the ultimate reliability would have
been achieved by eliminating the logic circuits, relay, LED, diverter
solenoid and its associated plumbing and installing a small tap so that
the water could be more easily tasted. To have all that electronic
overhead and then not connect the salinity sensor seems to me to actually
increase the risk that the system will fail. A couple of thoughts have
crossed my mind as to what has happened: 1) could it be that the board
was designed and produced and then found to not work as expected due
to the fact that TDS creep takes more than one minute to come down to
normal levels. Dessalator already had the control panels with green lights
and decided to market the system as if it worked that way, 2) or there is
some way that the system can actually be made to function as advertised
and I am not smart enough to figure how to do that, and the salinity sensor
wasn't hooked up due to a production error? (I have run various scenarios
in my mind hooking the salinity sensor to one of three un-used inputs but
still can't find a method that would allow the sensor to work as described
at the time of purchase).

If Amel requested this installation from Dessalator then Dessalator
probably won't admit it for fear of offending Amel. If Dessalator did
this without telling Amel then Dessalator will probably plead ignorance
to avoid looking bad. At any rate, until proven otherwise I am choosing
to believe that this sham installation was made by Dessalator and that
Amel believed them, just as we all did. After all, why would we not believe
them? Until now!

Regards, Gary Silver

Dear Joel, For a man who has a wealth of experience and valuable information on everything to do with Amel boats, to say nothing of an abundance of opinions, your keyboard has been( unusually !)silent in the great debate concerning the watermaker and whether its little green light serves any useful purpose or not.I am sure you will have read that it now seems that the green light and the water sensor do not seem to serve the purpose which many of us had understood them to serve.
It is only fair to say that, despite this ,I calculate that we have made about 70,000 litres in the past 6 years without mishap,( we have the 60 lph model) but nonetheless it would be interesting to hear your take on the matter.
I will spare you the question as to whether Amel ever knew if the water sensor was not connected to anything but I would love to know whether you think we should continue to take any notice of the little green light and, if not ,what we should do to ensure that the product is drinkable.( For my part I do taste the stuff regularly directly from the little tap on the watermaker panel and I have now bought a portable TDS meter)
Fair winds, Ian and Judy Jenkins, Pen Azen, SM 302, Uruguay

18 June 2006

Eric:

The O-rings for the Dessalator 160 lph water maker membranes are
as follows:

End Cap O-rings (8 required) 3.5 mm - 56.6 mm ID, 61 mm OD

Product water bore in end cap (4 ? required) 2.65 mm - 18.5 mm ID
, 23.65 mm OD

Interconnect bobbin and high pressure hose connecting fittings
(8 required) 1.5 mm - 9 mm ID, 12 mm OD

O-rings are nitrile rubber (common type O-rings)

Regards, Gary

Hi Eric:

Sorry to hear that you water maker is making salt water. Yes, my water
make is the 160 lph. Originally it was marketed as a 120 lph water
maker (this is a function of the membranes and the newer membranes
are computer manufactured and the glue lines when made by computer
are better than the original hand glued membranes and thus the
production is now up to 160 lph). Make sure that you let your water
maker run for 4 to 5 minutes under pressure (i.e. producing wate)
before making any judgements about the quality of the water. As per
my previous posts, due to TDS creep, the water produced during those
first few minutes will always read somehwere over 9,000 ppm or very
high EC. Also make sure your Omega EC meter is calibrated. They
sell a calibration solution for doing that. I suspect that it comes
calibrated from the factory as mine didn't require any adjusting but
periodic recalibration agains a standard solution is an important
quality control. If you water is tasting salty though there is little
doubt that your membranes have failed.

Evidently water makers love to be run. Disuse is one of their
primary downfalls. I try to use mine every day for a couple of house
when I am on the boat. If you determine that membranes are then you
can purchase new membranes from many sources. I got mine from
Air, Water, Ince, Inc. phone 772-461-0256. They are FilmTec
SW30-2540 membranes. You need two. I paid $177.00 USD each as
of Jan 2006. Request that they double package them for shipping
especially if they are shipping internationally. This was a great
company to do business with but their packaging for shipping was
a bit skimpy and the package had broken open somewhat just going
from Ft. Lauderdale to Utah.

As to servicing the membranes: The water maker is modular, the
pumps are seperate from the membranes and the control panel is
seperate from everything else. To service the membranes you DO
NOT NEED TO REMOVE THE CONTROL PANEL. Removing the control
panel is a whole other story.

To service the membranes you will need to remove the membranes
and their mounting bracket from their mounted position in the engine
room. If your boat is the same as mine, the membranes are mounted
to the ceiling of the engine room. To remove them, first flush the
system with fresh water so that when water drips it won't be salt water
getting on things in the engine room. Next drape some plastic
sheeting over items below the membranes. Next remove the ventilation
tubes as depicted in the WaterMaker Service Photo section to make
acessing the bolts securing the mounting bracket easier. Next remove
the two high pressure hoses at the membrane end cap fittings.
Make sure to hold the fittings with a wrench to prevent torquing
the plastic end caps as you unscrew the B nut of the high pressure
hoses. Next loosen the 4 nuts holding the membrane mounting
bracket to the ceiling. Be ready to support the membrane assembly
to prevent it from falling. It weighs about 20 lbs. Once you have
the membrane assembly out of the engine room you loosen the
nuts holding the tie rods that hold the mounting brackets on to the
membranes. Be careful to control the Kevlar tubes because at the
end opposite the end caps with the fittings for the high pressure
hoses is the inter-connect bobbin. Gently seperate the two Kevlar
tubes and make sure the bobbin doesn't fall out and go down the
cockpit drain. The bobbin is held in place only by its o-rings. Now
comes the tough part. Getting the end caps off the Kevlar tubes.
Again, see the photo section of the WaterMaker Service. You will
need two strap wrenches (Sears) or oil fillter wrences (small size)
and some muscle. Wrap the end cap and Kevlar tube with
anti-skid material or similar (both to protect them from damage
and to provide the necessary grip) and then work the end caps off.
Pay attention to the orientation of the fittings etc. The end caps
are held in place only by their O-rings but it is a tight interferrence
fit and this takes some real effort. Again, paying attention to the
membrane orientation remove the old membranes. Flush
everyting with fresh water (non-chlorinated) and using a plastic
pick remove the O-rings from their grooves and inspect them,
clean up the grooves, lubricate the O-rings (now is a good time
to replace them with new, I will get those dimensions for you)
with a small quantitiy of silicone lube and reassemble the system
by sliding the new membranes into place (again a tight fit). The
membranes have a Chevron seal on one end and must be
inserted in a direction that allows the base (the bottom of
the "V") of the Chevron seal to enter the tube before the free
edge of the "V". Lubricate this seal with some silicone lube as
well. This will be obvious as you place the membrane in the
tube otherwise you won't be able to get the seal to enter the
tube. reassembling the end caps (a tight fit), inserting the
interconnect bobbin, and with six hands get everything back
in the mounting brackets properly oriented with the tie rods
holding everything together. Follow the directions that come
with your membranes regarding initial use. Remount the
whole assembly, connect the high pressure hoses, and follow
the directions that come with the membranes regarding initial
use. The membranes come packaged wet in a pickling
solution so they do need to be flushed with sea water for 20
minutes and the first 20 to 30 minutes of product water
needs to be discarded. I have installed a valve in the product
water line just before it goes into the copper pipe that goes
to the tanks so that I can both test and divert this water.
Good luck.

Regards, Gary Silver

Gary,
my crew said the water tasted funky on the trip home from st martin .
i just hooked up the omega salinity tester and the water pinned the
instrument. I am going to drain the tank and go out and fil it with
filtered dock water . i will take the boat out into the sea and get
some water directly from the watermaker , i think this is futile but
i will give it a try. I believe my membranes are SHOT with just 66
hours on them. I believe the problem is that i pickled the unit
twice a year and used it only on passages. i think the pickle killed
the membranes.

I have a few questions. do you have the 160 lph watermaker?
what was the company that you got your membranes from?

is it necessary to remove the entire membrane asembly from the
engine room or can i just remove the hoses and the front mounting
plate to remove the watermaker?

Fair winds,
eric
kimberlite sm #376

Hi Ian,
Yes my meter is made in Korea for HM Digital in the States.I gave the
web site addresses in my posting of 8 June omitting the www. bit as
yahoo seems to censor web addresses. Mine sometimes gives the ERR
message but only briefly, I think at start up when the sea water
exceeds 10,000 ppm.
I did not fit the "in" sensor but I now wish I had put it in the "out"
line as well merely to use it as a check. I assume that you followed
the instructions vis a vis lining up the dot correctly on the sensor.

Best wishes, John, SM 319

Ian:

Have you tried orienting the sensor horizontally or inverted? I found that my
sensor didn't give consistent readings when I had it mounted vertically. I think
that perhaps the probes weren't long enough and there was an air bubble
trapped when it was upright. See the photo of my installation in the photo
section and you will see that my sensor is now mounted horizontally and in
that orientation any air in the system is washed past the probes yet the sensor
probes remain imersed in product water. Just a thought.

Regards, Gary

Eventhough the word is in "quotation Mark", please do not use "Radar"
with AIS.
On your radar screen, what you see is what you get WHERE YOU ARE AND
NOW (assuming everything is working properly). With AIS, what you get
is what the other ships ARE TELLING YOU..... not only can it be
incorrect but more imPortantly it is RARELY timely.
On a recent crossing from Turkey to Tunisia, I followed on my AIS
screen a vessel on a somewhat similar route and found that I could not
have relied on AIS for collision avoidance.

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "jrjrjrouse2000"
<sailingjudy@...> wrote:

Does anyone know the code to enable lower sideband on a Furuno 1503?

Judy Rouse
SM Hull 387

On the 1562, it is 1562. So you can try 1503.

Hi,

We have just sold our lovely Amel Sharki Hallelujah. We have enjoyed reading about various specific challenges. We will mill our Amel and have not found any better yacht.

Please remove us from your group e-mail list.

Thank you
Kim & Mike

Hi Ian and Judy,
Bluemarin did not drink the product and relied on bottled water.
They also relied on the salinity monitor which did not work as has
now been clearly revealed. The result was that they did not notice
that sea water was polluting their tank and it corroded/destroyed
their washing machine. The suggestion that the monitor is not
connected may well be because the machine is an Amel version.
I had trouble with my battery chargers, one of which failed and I
had to buy a new one as I was in Turkey and could not wait. This was
still not perfect but I sent the broken one back to the makers for
repair asking them to return it to their standard version. Since
then it has worked much better and with both 50 and 30 amp chargers
on the charge rate starts off at 70 plus amps when the batteries
have been taken down to about 75% charge.
Gary...Many thanks for all your hard work, descriptions and pics.
Much appreciated although I am amazed that someone who descibes
himself as a jeweller can give good advice ranging from using a
sledge hammer on the boom outhaul to reverse engineering a complex
electronic circuit board !

Best wishes, Anne and John SM 319

Hi Gary,

Your latest findings make further disturbing reading. Crusader went back in
the water a few days ago, and as promised, I have repeated the tests that
you did on your Dessalator water maker. I have a 160 l/h unit which is now 3
years old.

I removed the salinity tester from the output stage and plugged the hole
with a cork. I started the water maker, got the green 'good quality' light,
then immersed the salinity probe in a cup of seawater. NOTHING HAPPENED. The
water maker continued to fill my freshwater tank.

I then shut the unit down and restarted it with the probe still immersed in
seawater. THE GREEN LIGHT CAME ON AFTER ABOUT 55 SECONDS AND WATER WAS
DIVERTED INTO MY TANK.

So you are absolutely right. The safety feature on our water makers is a
complete sham. I find it quite amazing that any reputable manufacturer could
sell/install what is a life saving piece of equipment for those of us on
long voyages with such a potentially dangerous fault. Every other
manufacturer of desalination equipment that I have inspected has a similar
shutdown feature, that I assume, works? Why does it not on a Dessalator
unit?

Amel say in their manual that there is bad water protection, so why has it
been disabled? If Amel are aware that Pin11 is open circuit, then I consider
them to be highly irresponsible in leading their customers to believe that
the system that they chose, sold and installed does have a reliable
diversion system in the event of bad water being produced. This is
especially true on a yacht where there is only one fresh water tank. Pollute
that tank and you have nothing good left.

I shall write to M. Lemonnier and ask what solution Amel propose to assure
their customers that they have a safe water making system on board. I would
urge everyone else to do the same. The Dessalator system would, I think, not
comply with the Trades Description Act.

Thank you Gary for all your hard detective work. I am sure it is appreciated
by many of us.

Regards

Ian Shepherd SM 414 Crusader

Hi John,

Is your TDS meter made by HM Digital? Mine is, and no matter where I put it
in the blue output line, all I get is an 'Err' message when the water maker
is producing water. It does give a reading when the flow is stopped, i.e.
Just after shutdown, and it works fine in a cup of water. It seems not able
to cope with a decent flow rate. I have tried just after the membrane output
and just after the control panel with the same result. I have waited 5-10
minutes as per Gary's suggestion, but get the same result.

I would appreciate any advice. Like you, I have never used chemicals on my
membranes. Only the occasional back flush with self made water when not in
use for a while.

Cheers

Ian Shepherd SM 414 Crusader

Hi Ian:
Mine is the 120 lph (now 160 lph with the new membranes) 220 VAC 50 hertz model. My
membranes had only 185 hours on them when they failed. As I previously mentioned I am
sure that their premature demise was related to prolonged periods of pickling with
pickling solution that was way too concentrated. This due to my ignorance about the bad
effects of pickling and poor instructions from Dessalator (i.e. no really useful owners
manual). As I noted I don't plan to ever pickle the system again. The boat is now on the
hard in Jolly Harbor Antiqua for the hurricane season and I have rigged a multiday timer
with a relay to fllush the system with fresh water for 1 minutes three times per week. The
original Amel pressure water pump flushes about 7 liters per minute through the system.

PS I had a one hour long discussion with Rod Boreham (UK rep for Dessalator) yesterday
about my findings related to the non-connected salinity sensor. He notes that his wiring
diagrams do not match the photo of the circuit board that I sent him but also that the
spare board he has in his parts supply matches my photo. I noted also that the wiring
installation diagram supplied by Amel for my system doesn't match the system installed in
my boat as well. He doesn't know for sure but wondered if perhaps the salinity sensor
hook up and/or the control board were custom made at Amel's request. I suspect we will
never know for sure why or at who's request the salinity sensors were installed but not
connected to anything, but at least we now know that it doesn' work and can take
necessary action.

Regards, Gary Amel SM 2000 Hull # 3335

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "Ian & Judy Jenkins" <ianjudyjenkins@...>
wrote:

Hi Gary, I have just printed some of your very useful photos on changing
the membranes. Is yours a 60lph or 160 lph system? How many hours did you
get out of your membranes before you renewed them? Cheers, Ian Jenkins SM
302

Dear John and Anne, Thanks for those tips. Judy, who is a great water drinker, has a prejudice against the water maker water even though I catch her out on a regular basis with blind tastings against whatever bottled water she has obliged me to lug back from some distant supermarket. As a result I have bought the portable TDS meter so that we can have further competitions on board between the Made water and the Bought water. I am sure the Made water will beat the Bought water on a regular basis but, after 35 years of marriage the innermost workings of Judy's mind are still a complete mystery to me so I am not holding my breath that I shall be able to change her preference.Still, we shall have fun doing all our comparisons. Watch this space! Ian.

Thks to every who sent me replies about problems with the thruster. I
did manage to repair it - it was slightly out of position and I
asjusted the control box ? a bit down so that the metal arrows had
good contact with the pins over and under the control box.

Charlie , I will report about Trapani later.

Rgds Ivar Mylde
SM 53 Silfrania

Just to correct the information on the Maramu:



From the mid eighties this model was equipped with electrical furling genoa
and main as well as with a retractable bow thruster.



The difference between late Maramu’s and Santorin’s is therefore mainly the
Amel C-drive system, the winged ballast and some hull modifications – e.g.
it is somewhat lighter and will sail a bit faster in most situations.



Best Regards,

Lars, Denmark



_____

Fra: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af abulerhum
Sendt: 13. juni 2006 02:48
Til: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: SuperMaramu vs Maramu vs Santorin.



--- In amelyachtowners@ <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "uno.genesis" <uno.genesis@...> wrote:

I am planning to buy an Amel, and I wonder if some one could tell
me what are the main differences on Supermaramu, Maramu and Santorin
considering 45'and ketch rigging. The pros and cons.
Thaks in advance

I will sumarize quickly, so it will be very uncomplete.
Maramu and Santorin are of the same size (46 ft), Super maramu is 53ft.
There are many difference between Maramu and Santorin.
main differences are:
Maramu:
-line shaft
-3 manual rolling sails
-made until 89
-price range 100 / 150k Euro

Santorin
-Amel type transmission (C)
-Genoa and main electric furling. Artimon manual
-from 89 to 97 (140 made)
-improved hull
-winged ballast
-price range 200 / 250 k Euro
-Perkins 50HP same as maramu
-some sloop made. Not very popular.

Super maramu
-similar to Santorin but larger (53) and 1.5 time the space. (no sloop)
in addition:
-U shaped galley
-washer/dryer + dishwasher
-from 89 to 98
-Perkins 68 to 80HP
-price range 280 / 350 k Euro

Super Maramu 2000
-improvement to SM.
-99 to 2005 (almost 400 made)
-Perkins 80 to 100HP
-price range 350 to +++ k Euro

Condition and options (many available) will make the price.

They are all great boats. I only know happy owners. Amel is a very serious
company.
This is very uncomplete, but it should help for a start.
All depend what you are looking for, and how much you want to spend.

For info, I presently know an excellent Santorin for sale (French flag VAT
paid).

sincerely
Georges Pellegrini





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "uno.genesis" <uno.genesis@...> wrote:

I am planning to buy an Amel, and I wonder if some one could tell
me what are the main differences on Supermaramu, Maramu and Santorin
considering 45'and ketch rigging. The pros and cons.
Thaks in advance

I will sumarize quickly, so it will be very uncomplete.
Maramu and Santorin are of the same size (46 ft), Super maramu is 53ft.
There are many difference between Maramu and Santorin.
main differences are:
Maramu:
-line shaft
-3 manual rolling sails
-made until 89
-price range 100 / 150k Euro

Santorin
-Amel type transmission (C)
-Genoa and main electric furling. Artimon manual
-from 89 to 97 (140 made)
-improved hull
-winged ballast
-price range 200 / 250 k Euro
-Perkins 50HP same as maramu
-some sloop made. Not very popular.

Super maramu
-similar to Santorin but larger (53) and 1.5 time the space. (no sloop)
in addition:
-U shaped galley
-washer/dryer + dishwasher
-from 89 to 98
-Perkins 68 to 80HP
-price range 280 / 350 k Euro

Super Maramu 2000
-improvement to SM.
-99 to 2005 (almost 400 made)
-Perkins 80 to 100HP
-price range 350 to +++ k Euro

Condition and options (many available) will make the price.

They are all great boats. I only know happy owners. Amel is a very serious company.
This is very uncomplete, but it should help for a start.
All depend what you are looking for, and how much you want to spend.

For info, I presently know an excellent Santorin for sale (French flag VAT paid).

sincerely
Georges Pellegrini

I am planning to buy an Amel, and I wonder if some one could tell
me what are the main differences on Supermaramu, Maramu and Santorin
considering 45'and ketch rigging. The pros and cons.
Thaks in advance