Date   

Amel Super Maramu Hull # 317 Papa - Papa II - Lady Divina

assistanttoblackdog <assistanttoblackdog@...>
 

I noticed that Amel Super Maramu hull # 317 Papa II is listed for sale on yachtworld dot com, lying in Seattle.

I didn't see any history of multiple severe damage incidents mentioned in the broker's listing, thus I felt it my duty to post this.

It is my understanding that some of the history of Amel Super Maramu 2000 hull # 317 is as follows:

The boat was previously known as Lady Divina. She boat was blown off of her stands while on the hard in Venezuela by hurricane Ivan in 2004. A hole was punched completely through the hull and the nav station area and bulkhead underwent extensive repairs.

The boat was then put up for sale and after a long time on the market she was purchased by a new owner at a substantial discount.

On July 6, 2007 while in British Columbia, Canada the new owner ran her into the rocks under full power at 8 knots causing the keel to be completely ripped off, separated from the hull and lost.

In post #'s 2998 and 2999 on this Yahoo group the owner wrote:

"Well the bow thruster prop repair is way down on the list today.
Yesterday PAPA struck a rock HARD at 8 knots in Canada and LOST HER
KEEL. She floated free after it got ripped off in about 10 minutes
of twisting and rolling with the surging currents. I was able to
motor slowly away to deeper water and dive over to see the keel was
GONE. At high RPM's there was severe vibrations so I took the FREE
(CANADA COAST GUARD IS AWESOME) tow to Port Hardy, BC where I will be
spending some time exploring the construction of the AMELS...

Once out of the water you can see all the stainless keel bolts were
cut clean off. The transmission housing is sagging down 4 inches
(but the prop turns fine and was able to motor slowly into the
haulout slip.) There is fresh water leaking out from the bottom of
what is left of the keel, so I will be drinking large quanities of
good Canadian Beer.

If anyone has any experience with reattaching a keel, water tank
repair or transmission issues, I am all ears."


And finally, two months later while awaiting repairs the owner was killed on October 18, 2007 in a tragic kite surfing accident in Seattle. ( www dot sailpapa dot com )

If anyone believes any of this information is in error please notify me and I will immediately post a correction.

Just thought you might want to know – I would if I were in the market.

Best,

Jim
former SM & future Amel owner


Re: [Amel] Anyone need traveler car for Maramu with Goiot 164 track?

Dave_Benjamin
 

I just checked West Marine. Do you have any WM part numbers. Nothing in their catalog that remotely looks like it will fit Goiot "Y-track". This is for traveler track, not genoa fairlead.

--- On Thu, 5/14/09, Iv Pepe <iv_pepe@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Iv Pepe <iv_pepe@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Amel] Anyone need traveler car for Maramu with Goiot 164 track?
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, May 14, 2009, 1:00 AM

















Hi,

All parts from GOJOT France you can find in West Marine,traweler car stopers.

Iv Pepe SM 223



--- El mié, 13/5/09, Dave_Benjamin <dave_benjamin@ yahoo.com> escribió:



De: Dave_Benjamin <dave_benjamin@ yahoo.com>

Asunto: [Amel] Anyone need traveler car for Maramu with Goiot 164 track?

Para: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

Fecha: miércoles, 13 mayo, 2009 6:16



I am ordering a traveler car from France for delivery here in the US. If anyone else wants to replace a car, end stops, etc. let me know. We can split shipping. I can email you diagrams of the cars and tracks. Plan to order in the next day or two.
































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: [Amel] ssb ground strap

jlmertz@free.fr <jlmertz@...>
 

Or less (390 ) for a new one in Canada shipping cost included ..... :-)
jlm
CottonBay
------------------------------------------------------------------------



HI to All,
If you have a VOLVO TAMD 22-P-B, this is Perkins Prima engin,105 hp,instalet an Rover cars model 220-420-620 SDI from 1995-to 2003, engine typ TCI-E, turbo GARET - GT1549S avelible from turboalta.com The engin can be found in a scrap yard for abb.500 euro

Iv-Pepe SM 223--- El mi, 13/5/09, Richard Piller <richard03801@yahoo.com <mailto:richard03801%40yahoo.com>> escribi:

De: Richard Piller <richard03801@yahoo.com <mailto:richard03801%40yahoo.com>>
Asunto: Re: [Amel] ssb ground strap
Para: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com>
Fecha: mircoles, 13 mayo, 2009 11:24

Don, that cooper strip goes to the SSB turner in the aft locker then to the bronze plate on the keel.
good luck.
Richard and Joan on SM 209

--- On Fri, 4/24/09, Don Henderson <maramu48@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Don Henderson <maramu48@yahoo. com>
Subject: [Amel] ssb ground strap
To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 2:52 PM

Our Maramu has a 70mm x 1.5mm copper ssb grounding strap exiting the hull at the stern in the aft locker facing the cabin. Does anyone know where the strap goes, and to what is it connected?

thanks

Don and Pam

s/v MINERVA




Re: [Amel] ssb ground strap

Iv Pepe <iv_pepe@...>
 

HI to All,
If you have a VOLVO TAMD 22-P-B, this is Perkins Prima engin,105 hp,instalet an Rover  cars model 220-420-620 SDI from 1995-to 2003, engine typ TCI-E, turbo GARET - GT1549S avelible from turboalta.com The engin can be found in a scrap yard for abb.500 euro

Iv-Pepe SM 223--- El mié, 13/5/09, Richard Piller <richard03801@yahoo.com> escribió:


De: Richard Piller <richard03801@yahoo.com>
Asunto: Re: [Amel] ssb ground strap
Para: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Fecha: miércoles, 13 mayo, 2009 11:24








Don, that cooper strip goes to the SSB turner in the aft locker then to the bronze plate on the keel.
good luck.
Richard and Joan on SM 209

--- On Fri, 4/24/09, Don Henderson <maramu48@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Don Henderson <maramu48@yahoo. com>
Subject: [Amel] ssb ground strap
To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 2:52 PM

Our Maramu has a 70mm x 1.5mm copper ssb grounding strap exiting the hull at the stern in the aft locker facing the cabin. Does anyone know where the strap goes, and to what is it connected?

thanks

Don and Pam

s/v MINERVA


Anyone with a SHARKI in the UK?

GrahamJohnston42 <grahamjohnston42@yahoo.com>
 

We looking for a SHarki but have not been on board one for a couple of years and would like to talk to any owners in the UK and if possible see aboard again to refreshh our memories before we start to travel across the EU.

Regards
Graham


Re: [Amel] Iridium Sat Phone Antenna Installation

Iv Pepe <iv_pepe@...>
 

HI,
How can I get, a REY charger?
Iv Pepe SM,223
--- El mié, 13/5/09, Richard Piller <richard03801@yahoo.com> escribió:


De: Richard Piller <richard03801@yahoo.com>
Asunto: Re: [Amel] Iridium Sat Phone Antenna Installation
Para: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Fecha: miércoles, 13 mayo, 2009 11:38








We mounted ours on the aft rail next to the outboard motor.  It works well there and is protected by the motor.
Richard and Joan on Challenge in Annapolis SM 209

--- On Sun, 4/5/09, sv_seabbatical <sv.lonestar@ gmail.com> wrote:

From: sv_seabbatical <sv.lonestar@ gmail.com>
Subject: [Amel] Iridium Sat Phone Antenna Installation
To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 1:30 PM

I have an Iridium Sat Phone and want to know what kind of antenna installations have been done on Amel 54's. Are they all on the top of the mizzen? Has anyone mounted one on the dodger? All comments will be appreciated.

Craig Scott

LONE STAR

Amel 54 #101































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: [Amel] Anyone need traveler car for Maramu with Goiot 164 track?

Iv Pepe <iv_pepe@...>
 

Hi,
All parts from GOJOT France you can find in West Marine,traweler car stopers.
Iv Pepe SM 223

--- El mié, 13/5/09, Dave_Benjamin <dave_benjamin@yahoo.com> escribió:


De: Dave_Benjamin <dave_benjamin@yahoo.com>
Asunto: [Amel] Anyone need traveler car for Maramu with Goiot 164 track?
Para: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Fecha: miércoles, 13 mayo, 2009 6:16








I am ordering a traveler car from France for delivery here in the US. If anyone else wants to replace a car, end stops, etc. let me know. We can split shipping. I can email you diagrams of the cars and tracks. Plan to order in the next day or two.



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: [Amel] Iridium Sat Phone Antenna Installation

Uhlir János <ujanos@...>
 

Hi

Can we have a picture ?

Intresting !



J



_____

From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Piller
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:39 PM
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Amel] Iridium Sat Phone Antenna Installation








We mounted ours on the aft rail next to the outboard motor. It works well
there and is protected by the motor.
Richard and Joan on Challenge in Annapolis SM 209

--- On Sun, 4/5/09, sv_seabbatical <sv.lonestar@
<mailto:sv.lonestar%40gmail.com> gmail.com> wrote:

From: sv_seabbatical <sv.lonestar@ <mailto:sv.lonestar%40gmail.com>
gmail.com>
Subject: [Amel] Iridium Sat Phone Antenna Installation
To: amelyachtowners@ <mailto:amelyachtowners%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 1:30 PM

I have an Iridium Sat Phone and want to know what kind of antenna
installations have been done on Amel 54's. Are they all on the top of the
mizzen? Has anyone mounted one on the dodger? All comments will be
appreciated.

Craig Scott

LONE STAR

Amel 54 #101











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



A bejv levlben az AVG nem tallt vrust
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.325 / Virus Database: 270.12.27/2112 - Release Date: 05/13/09
07:04:00




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Anyone need traveler car for Maramu with Goiot 164 track?

Dave_Benjamin
 

I am ordering a traveler car from France for delivery here in the US. If anyone else wants to replace a car, end stops, etc. let me know. We can split shipping. I can email you diagrams of the cars and tracks. Plan to order in the next day or two.


Re: [Amel] Re: Vertical Batons

Anne and John Hollamby <annejohnholl@...>
 

Hello,
Look in the seach box going back several years for previous inputs. Setting aside the efficiency of bigger battens the ordinary unbattened sail looks awful and as can be seen in my earlier posting on my last boat adding one or two small verticals (long time ago,I cnnot recall) made it possible to add &% sail area to the main and it no longer had the horrible negative roach and also set very well.
It has always surprised me that sailmakers are so reluctant to make this sort of sail. Perhaps they are cheaper and less expensive than more complex solutions. Mine was made by Mike Relling of North Sails and latterly Relling sails and he made it in another loft in Auckland.
I have yet to get a new main for my boat but when I do ir will certainly not have a negative roach.
I do wish people would add their model type and no to their messages.

Regards, Anneand John, SM319

----- Original Message -----
From: Craig & Katherine
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:17 PM
Subject: [Amel] Re: Vertical Batons





Just to balance this thread, I recently helped Kent Robertson sail "Kristy", his new-to-him SM#243, from Galveston to Key West. (You may recall his postings back in March & April). He had just installed new sails with vertical battens in the main.

Kent may want to weigh in here, too, but IMHO, the vertical battens were great. They furled flawlessly in heavy and light air and the sail was always beautifully shaped. No way to know definitively about added speed, but to an old racing skipper's eye they were the cat's meow.

Certainly the point about potential furling problems is prefectly valid and a very conservative approach may argue against them - a few tenths of a knot, perhaps, vs. a higher comfort level, but, hey, that's why they make chocolate and vanilla - take your pick!

Cheers,
Craig Briggs - Santorin #68 "Sangaris" in Siracusa, Sicily


Re: [Amel] Iridium Sat Phone Antenna Installation

Richard Piller <richard03801@...>
 

We mounted ours on the aft rail next to the outboard motor.  It works well there and is protected by the motor.
Richard and Joan on Challenge in Annapolis SM 209

--- On Sun, 4/5/09, sv_seabbatical <sv.lonestar@gmail.com> wrote:

From: sv_seabbatical <sv.lonestar@gmail.com>
Subject: [Amel] Iridium Sat Phone Antenna Installation
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 1:30 PM












I have an Iridium Sat Phone and want to know what kind of antenna installations have been done on Amel 54's. Are they all on the top of the mizzen? Has anyone mounted one on the dodger? All comments will be appreciated.



Craig Scott

LONE STAR

Amel 54 #101


Re: [Amel] Re: Fw: Alternator smart charger

Richard Piller <richard03801@...>
 

We installed a Rey charger that accepts 90-260 volts and out puts 24 volts.  It is a smart charger that manages the battery bank.  And is a great solution to being in different countries/marinas that have different voltages.
  We also installed an inverter running off the 24 volt bank for 110 volts and did away wiht the Amel supplied coil inverter in the engine room..
Hope this is not to late.
Good luck
Richard and Joan on Challenge SM 209

--- On Fri, 4/17/09, Jose_Luis Isasi <jose.luis.isasi@motorola.com> wrote:

From: Jose_Luis Isasi <jose.luis.isasi@motorola.com>
Subject: [Amel] Re: Fw: Alternator smart charger
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 5:14 AM

















Hi,



Most of these need to bypass the internal regulator, so if your alternator does not have an external connection (someones have), then you need to rework the alternator to have it. Talking to a experienced installer, the best seems to be ADVERC Mk.IVa (189 pounds), and also very robust as you can install it in the engine room. I have bad feedback (from same installer) about the Sterling Universal Advanced Digital Alternator Regulator AR12VD model (79 pounds) that works the same way because of overheating failures. There is a Sterling Pro Digital Advanced Regulator (125 punds) that incorporates a fan, but I would not put it in the engine room either.



However, Sterling has a unit AB1290 (219 pounds) that does not need to bypass the internal regulator and that looks very interesting (at least to me), because it also works as a battery bank charge splitter. It is easier to install and to remove. I need to decide.



Check here for more options and links to manufacturers, this a english shop that has good pricing. http://www.jgtech. com/alternators. htm



Regards

Jose Luis

Jose_Luis



--- In amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com, Iv Pepe <iv_pepe@... > wrote:

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Iv Pepe <iv_pepe@... >
To: amelyachtowners@ ...
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 9:57:04 AM
Subject: Alternator smart charger
Hallo Everyone,
Pls, your opinion abb. alternator smart charger Xantrex, Sterling ,Adverc,  Beter charging  or dameging
atteries?  Acc. Adverc opinion ,the ratio Altern.--Batter. is 1 to 3 ?
Thank you,
Pepe SM 223






























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: [Amel] ssb ground strap

Richard Piller <richard03801@...>
 

Don, that cooper strip goes to the SSB turner in the aft locker then to the bronze plate on the keel.
good luck.
Richard and Joan on SM 209

--- On Fri, 4/24/09, Don Henderson <maramu48@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Don Henderson <maramu48@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Amel] ssb ground strap
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 2:52 PM



















Our Maramu has a 70mm x 1.5mm copper ssb grounding strap exiting the hull at the stern in the aft locker facing the cabin. Does anyone know where the strap goes, and to what is it connected?

thanks

Don and Pam

s/v MINERVA































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: [Amel] ssb ground strap

Richard Piller <richard03801@...>
 

Don, that cooper strip goes to the SSB turner in the aft locker then to the bronze plate on the keel.
good luck.
Richard and Joan on SM 209

--- On Fri, 4/24/09, Don Henderson <maramu48@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Don Henderson <maramu48@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Amel] ssb ground strap
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 2:52 PM



















Our Maramu has a 70mm x 1.5mm copper ssb grounding strap exiting the hull at the stern in the aft locker facing the cabin. Does anyone know where the strap goes, and to what is it connected?

thanks

Don and Pam

s/v MINERVA































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Vertical Batons

Craig Briggs
 

Just to balance this thread, I recently helped Kent Robertson sail "Kristy", his new-to-him SM#243, from Galveston to Key West. (You may recall his postings back in March & April). He had just installed new sails with vertical battens in the main.

Kent may want to weigh in here, too, but IMHO, the vertical battens were great. They furled flawlessly in heavy and light air and the sail was always beautifully shaped. No way to know definitively about added speed, but to an old racing skipper's eye they were the cat's meow.

Certainly the point about potential furling problems is prefectly valid and a very conservative approach may argue against them - a few tenths of a knot, perhaps, vs. a higher comfort level, but, hey, that's why they make chocolate and vanilla - take your pick!

Cheers,
Craig Briggs - Santorin #68 "Sangaris" in Siracusa, Sicily


Re: [Amel] Verical Batons

Dave_Benjamin
 

Jim,

As a sailmaker I am not enthused with vertical battens although there are some  vocal proponents. There are issues with vertical battens getting stuck and causing problems. On a cruising boat you really don't want that risk.

Has your sailmaker built sails for a SM before? I saw one SM where a sailmaker made the sail a bit too long on the luff and built patches that were bulky. The sail required several modifications to fit properly.

--- On Tue, 5/12/09, linda.desalvo <linda.desalvo@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: linda.desalvo <linda.desalvo@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Amel] Verical Batons
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, May 12, 2009, 4:32 PM

















Hello All

We are in the process of ordering a new mainsail for our Super Maramu #207 and would like any feedback that we could get in reference to vertical batons. Are they something that would enhance the sail. Does anyone out there have a mainsail with vertical baton and what kind of performance does this type of sail give? Could they get stuck in the roller furling? Any advise or comments would be greatly appreciated.

Jim DeSalvo

SV Liebling




























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Verical Batons

linda.desalvo <linda.desalvo@...>
 

Hello All
We are in the process of ordering a new mainsail for our Super Maramu #207 and would like any feedback that we could get in reference to vertical batons. Are they something that would enhance the sail. Does anyone out there have a mainsail with vertical baton and what kind of performance does this type of sail give? Could they get stuck in the roller furling? Any advise or comments would be greatly appreciated.
Jim DeSalvo
SV Liebling


Re: Sharki interior refitting

Mr D
 

--- In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, "claudio.2008" <claudio.2008@...> wrote:

I would like to refit my Sharki interiors, coatings and textiles.
Is there anyone who can give me some tips and guidelines (how and
where) ? The boat is in Italy.
Good winds to all!
I would stay away from the foam backed vinyl used as the original stuff due to the mold buildup.

Dmitry


Re: [Amel] shaft driven alternator

Eric Lindholm <etlindholm@...>
 

The transmission in my Maramu is a manual transmission, Hurth, which does not have a pump to lubricate the bearings. It is splash lubricated. You can free wheel it without concern. I think it is your hydraulic transmissions that have to be run every once in a while, as they do have a pump for pressure to the plates as well as the bearings. Same as a car. You can tow a manual trans car with no problems, not so with an automatic. Eric maramu 105




________________________________
From: Robin Cooter <robincooter@yahoo.co.uk>
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 9:29:51 AM
Subject: RE: [Amel] shaft driven alternator





Good point.   The Santorin transmission is also designed for "free wheeling"
 
Robin Cooter
Santorin 004, Belouga

--- On Mon, 11/5/09, Richard Piller <richard03801@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Richard Piller <richard03801@ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Amel] shaft driven alternator
To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, 11 May, 2009, 3:43 PM

Guys, the one point you are missing is that the Maramu transmission is designed to allow for free wheeling.  NOT all transmissions are.  Before anyone with a SM takes to sea with the prop turning undersail please take a look at the spec on YOUR transmission to be sure you can safely free wheel.  Regarding the speed of the boat; we did several trans-Atlantic crossings with the prop on our Maramu free wheeling and charging the batteries that worked better then the wind mill we have on our SM.  The fact is that in practice the free wheeling/charging solution is the better way to go..Best to all, Challenge in Annapolis SM 209Richard and Joan

--- On Tue, 5/5/09, G D <maramu@hotmail. com> wrote:

From: G D <maramu@hotmail. com>
Subject: RE: [Amel] shaft driven alternator
To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 1:17 AM

Last but not the least. I wont bother you with rocket science or nuclear physic as I'm not an engineer. So I can tell you that when I engage the prop shaft driven alternator, I loose around half a knot when I'm between 5 and 9 knots

Again this has nothing to do with hydrodynamic theory or fluid mechanic, it is simply a true fact of sailing.

Best regards to all

Erick

To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

From: maramu@hotmail. com

Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 07:09:59 +0200

Subject: RE: [Amel] shaft driven alternator

Dear All

I truly agree with David, a Max Prop can be manipulated so that it will drive a prop shaft alternator and in fact not many people know that. I use a Max prop with an alternator fited by amel. It works perfectly well, provided that you do the following

1 Start the engine and run it at idle,

2 While under sail, engage the reverse and accelerate slowly untill the gearbox is well engaged, you should hear a kind of "Klong"

3 While still runing the engine at idle with the reverse engaged under sail, turn on the alternator switch.

4 Bring back the Morse stick to neutral,(you will fell some kind of resistance)

5 Turn off the engine and ............ ......... ....your power plant is on runing with a max prop.

I have been using this method for the past 10 years and it works perfectly well, generating plentifull Amps. By eight knots, I manage to cover my heavy consumption.

In addition I have fited an Air wind turbine on the mizzaine mast which worls perfectly well.

Regards to all

Erick

To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

From: dlm48@aol.com

Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 23:35:45 +0100

Subject: Re: [Amel] shaft driven alternator

Dave you are missing the point either deliberately or not.

IF you have an excess of HP from your sails and you are at hull speed and

pushing the envelope on the displacement drag curve with say 150/200 or more

HP coming off your sails on an Amel fully powered up - any drag from a prop

driving a shaft alternator is totally unimportant and incidental. As a

multiple disciplined engineer i can categorically prove mathematically that

a fixed bladed prop has less drag when held stationary than one that is

allowed to rotate 'freely' under the influence of the boats motion. HOWEVER

i have proven to myself that the actuality of this - the theory does not

work in practice - for 20 or more years i sailed with the prop stopped with

the engine in gear until i was doing a delivery trip with the owner on board

on a Privilege 37 Cat he had left the props free wheeling and when i stopped

them when i came on watch he came back on deck and explained that the boat

was faster with the props freewheeling. As i knew and could prove

empirically this was not the case i argued the point until he proved to me

that my expert opinion was rubbish. Why you would introduce folding or

feathering props into this topic - i truly dont understand - also fixed

props dont slow a boat down feathering or folding props are go-faster bits

of kit.

So to summarise

IF you have enough sail power to get hull speed then you wont notice any

drag from a prop shaft driven alternator.

IN every boat i have sailed and tested allowing the prop to rotate is less

draggy and is a faster way to sail than keeping it stopped.

A feathering or folding prop has less drag than a fixed bladed prop

A Max Prop can be manipulated so that it will drive a prop shaft alternator

(not many people know that)

regards

David

2009/5/4 Dave Benjamin <dave_benjamin@ yahoo.com>

Eric,
My professional background is in aviation and props in the water and props
in the air have some similarities. Air and water are both fluids albeit
water is a much denser medium. Also the laws of physics come into play.
Anotherwords the prop is not freewheeling since the generator places a load
on it. You cannot extract energy from the water in the form of a prop
generator without creating friction. People can believe what they want to
believe. The laws of physics and hydrodynamics will still apply. The only
way to really reduce the prop drag penalty is with a feathering or folding
prop which is precisely why the racing rules give credits for a fixed prop.
The handicappers know the fixed prop will slow a boat down and give a 3
second or 6 second per mile credit for it.
--- On Mon, 5/4/09, Eric Lindholm <etlindholm@ sbcgloba l.net<etlindholm% 40sbcglobal. net>>
wrote:
From: Eric Lindholm <etlindholm@ sbcgloba l.net <etlindholm% 40sbcglobal. net>
Subject: Re: [Amel] shaft driven alternator
To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com <amelyachtowners% 40yahoogroups. com>
Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 2:12 PM
David, I actually read a study where the results showed that there was
less drag with the prop freewheeling, no alternator, like you said, rather
than locked. I also agree that this goes against everything I have ever
heard. Even after reading the article, I have a very difficult time
believing it. If I can find it I will post it for your info, or at least
amusement. It was a study comparing all of the props available for
sailboats, and there efficiency in forward, reverse, and under sail. It
compared 2 blade, 3 blade, maxi prop, etc. Eric maramu 105
--- On Mon, 5/4/09, David Mackintosh <dlm48@aol.com <dlm48%40aol. com>>
wrote:
From: David Mackintosh <dlm48@aol.com <dlm48%40aol. com>>
Subject: Re: [Amel] shaft driven alternator
To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 3:41 AM
YES and NO there is theory and there is practice.... ...on my O461 the boat
IS faster by up to a knot (unless you are at hull speed with plenty of
wind)
if you let the prop free wheel and i know this is contrary to scientific
theory...i guess the prop is uneducated. I have discovered that this is the
case on quite a few boats i have sailed too - so this is not a one off
phenomenon.
Driving a shaft generator would i 'think' cause more drag - as you dont get
nothing for nothing - and the energy to drive that alternator has to come
from somewhere. However if you have an excess of sail power you 'might' not
see a decrease in boat speed which after all is all that matters. I am
ignoring wear and noise issues (for the pedantic).
regards
David
2009/5/3 Dave Benjamin <dave_benjamin@ yahoo.com>
Ettore and Silvana,
You are defying the laws of physics and hydrodynamics if you really think
the shaft alternator does not slow the boat down. In fact the turning
propeller acts almost like a disc. It generated more resistance than it
would if it was stationary. I would use one if it was already installed
but
I would not go out of my way to install a speed brake like that. There
are
some solutions in the form of a unit that is deployed from the transom.
One
of my neighbors used one to and from Hawaii and it generated electricity
quite well.
--- On Sun, 5/3/09, Arca di Noè <arcadinoesailing@ hotmail.com<
arcadinoesailing % 40hotmail. com>>
wrote:
From: Arca di Noè <arcadinoesailing@ hotmail.com< arcadinoesailing %
40hotmail. com>
Subject: Re: [Amel] shaft driven alternator
To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com <amelyachtowners% 40yahoogroups.
com>
Date: Sunday, May 3, 2009, 9:43 AM
Hi David and Hazel,
We use the shaft driven alternator in our Mango with much satisfaction.
No reduction the speed on sailing.
It will give 7/9 amp when running at 7/8 knots.
It don't works down 4 knots.
Very very important: if you have Hurth gearbox or similar, is imperative
to
run the motor half our every 12 ours, to lubricate the gearbox because r
shaft running isn't enaugh to lubricate the interior of the gearbox: if
the
motor is not on, is easy to break the interior disks of the gearbox.
Now our Mango is independent for the electriciy of Marina: 2 solar panel
and 1 wind generator is perfectly.
With 15/20 wind knots We have cooking the pizza in the electric four at
220v!!!
Ettore & Silvana of Arca di Noè
----- Original Message -----
From: "David and Hazel Worthington" <spritoaffine@ yahoo.co. uk>
To: <amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com>
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 1:43 PM
Subject: [Amel] shaft driven alternator
Hi All
Due to the charges being imposed by marina operators now for
electricity
in the Med I have been considering various options to allow free
battery
charging
Our rattly Max Prop needs rebuilding and I was wondering about
replacing
it with a standard fixed prop in order to use the propshaft alternator
but
am concerned about loss of speed and increase in noise when sailing,
does
anyone still use their prop driven alternator or has everyone turned to
solar and wind power instead. I understand we would need a 19 inch prop
but am not sure whether the 13 mentioned is inches or degrees of pitch.
Our aft cabin is too noisy to sleep in on passage due to
propshaft/cutless
bearing noise even after replacing the cutless bearing, is this normal?
Also would we go backwards straighter with the Max Prop or a fixed
prop?
we don't have a bow thruster
Your opinions would be appreciated
David and Hazel Sharki 148
------------ --------- --------- ------
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Re: [Amel] shaft driven alternator

Patrick McAneny
 

Richard, Welcome back to the Bay, hope you had a good crossing. Since my SM
came with shaft driven alternator is it then safe to assume, that I do not
need to worry about pressurizing the gearbox as someone suggested in a
previous post. I may sail down to Annapolis to see the Blue Angels at the
Academy graduation.Are you guys in Back creek ?

In a message dated 5/11/2009 10:45:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
richard03801@yahoo.com writes:





Guys, the one point you are missing is that the Maramu transmission is
designed to allow for free wheeling. NOT all transmissions are. Before anyone
with a SM takes to sea with the prop turning undersail please take a look
at the spec on YOUR transmission to be sure you can safely free wheel.
Regarding the speed of the boat; we did several trans-Atlantic crossings with
the prop on our Maramu free wheeling and charging the batteries that worked
better then the wind mill we have on our SM. The fact is that in practice
the free wheeling/charging solution is the better way to go..Best to all,
Challenge in Annapolis SM 209Richard and Joan

--- On Tue, 5/5/09, G D <_maramu@hotmail.mar_ (mailto:maramu@hotmail.com) >
wrote:

From: G D <_maramu@hotmail.mar_ (mailto:maramu@hotmail.com) >
Subject: RE: [Amel] shaft driven alternator
To: _amelyachtowners@amelyachtowname_
(mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com)
Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 1:17 AM

Last but not the least. I wont bother you with rocket science or nuclear
physic as I'm not an engineer. So I can tell you that when I engage the prop
shaft driven alternator, I loose around half a knot when I'm between 5 and
9 knots

Again this has nothing to do with hydrodynamic theory or fluid mechanic,
it is simply a true fact of sailing.

Best regards to all

Erick

To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

From: maramu@hotmail. com

Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 07:09:59 +0200

Subject: RE: [Amel] shaft driven alternator

Dear All

I truly agree with David, a Max Prop can be manipulated so that it will
drive a prop shaft alternator and in fact not many people know that. I use a
Max prop with an alternator fited by amel. It works perfectly well,
provided that you do the following

1 Start the engine and run it at idle,

2 While under sail, engage the reverse and accelerate slowly untill the
gearbox is well engaged, you should hear a kind of "Klong"

3 While still runing the engine at idle with the reverse engaged under
sail, turn on the alternator switch.

4 Bring back the Morse stick to neutral,(you will fell some kind of
resistance)

5 Turn off the engine and ............ ......... ....your power plant is
on runing with a max prop.

I have been using this method for the past 10 years and it works perfectly
well, generating plentifull Amps. By eight knots, I manage to cover my
heavy consumption.

In addition I have fited an Air wind turbine on the mizzaine mast which
worls perfectly well.

Regards to all

Erick

To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com

From: _dlm48@aol.com_ (mailto:dlm48@aol.com)

Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 23:35:45 +0100

Subject: Re: [Amel] shaft driven alternator

Dave you are missing the point either deliberately or not.

IF you have an excess of HP from your sails and you are at hull speed and

pushing the envelope on the displacement drag curve with say 150/200 or
more

HP coming off your sails on an Amel fully powered up - any drag from a
prop

driving a shaft alternator is totally unimportant and incidental. As a

multiple disciplined engineer i can categorically prove mathematically that

a fixed bladed prop has less drag when held stationary than one that is

allowed to rotate 'freely' under the influence of the boats motion. HOWEVER

i have proven to myself that the actuality of this - the theory does not

work in practice - for 20 or more years i sailed with the prop stopped with

the engine in gear until i was doing a delivery trip with the owner on
board

on a Privilege 37 Cat he had left the props free wheeling and when i
stopped

them when i came on watch he came back on deck and explained that the boat

was faster with the props freewheeling. As i knew and could prove

empirically this was not the case i argued the point until he proved to me

that my expert opinion was rubbish. Why you would introduce folding or

feathering props into this topic - i truly dont understand - also fixed

props dont slow a boat down feathering or folding props are go-faster bits

of kit.

So to summarise

IF you have enough sail power to get hull speed then you wont notice any

drag from a prop shaft driven alternator.

IN every boat i have sailed and tested allowing the prop to rotate is less

draggy and is a faster way to sail than keeping it stopped.

A feathering or folding prop has less drag than a fixed bladed prop

A Max Prop can be manipulated so that it will drive a prop shaft alternator

(not many people know that)

regards

David

2009/5/4 Dave Benjamin <dave_benjamin@ yahoo.com>

Eric,
My professional background is in aviation and props in the water and
props

in the air have some similarities. Air and water are both fluids albeit
water is a much denser medium. Also the laws of physics come into play.
Anotherwords the prop is not freewheeling since the generator places a
load

on it. You cannot extract energy from the water in the form of a prop
generator without creating friction. People can believe what they want
to

believe. The laws of physics and hydrodynamics will still apply. The only
way to really reduce the prop drag penalty is with a feathering or
folding

prop which is precisely why the racing rules give credits for a fixed
prop.

The handicappers know the fixed prop will slow a boat down and give a 3
second or 6 second per mile credit for it.
--- On Mon, 5/4/09, Eric Lindholm <etlindholm@etlindholm@<WB<etlindholm%
40sbcglobal. net>>

wrote:
From: Eric Lindholm <etlindholm@etlindholm@<WBR<etlindholm% 40sbcglobal.
net>

Subject: Re: [Amel] shaft driven alternator
To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com <amelyachtowners% 40yahoogroups.
com>

Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 2:12 PM
David, I actually read a study where the results showed that there was
less drag with the prop freewheeling, no alternator, like you said,
rather

than locked. I also agree that this goes against everything I have ever
heard. Even after reading the article, I have a very difficult time
believing it. If I can find it I will post it for your info, or at least
amusement. It was a study comparing all of the props available for
sailboats, and there efficiency in forward, reverse, and under sail. It
compared 2 blade, 3 blade, maxi prop, etc. Eric maramu 105
--- On Mon, 5/4/09, David Mackintosh <_dlm48@aol.com_
(mailto:dlm48@aol.com) <dlm48%40aol. com>>

wrote:
From: David Mackintosh <_dlm48@aol.com_ (mailto:dlm48@aol.com)
<dlm48%40aol. com>>

Subject: Re: [Amel] shaft driven alternator
To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 3:41 AM
YES and NO there is theory and there is practice.... ...on my O461 the
boat

IS faster by up to a knot (unless you are at hull speed with plenty of
wind)
if you let the prop free wheel and i know this is contrary to scientific
theory...i guess the prop is uneducated. I have discovered that this is
the

case on quite a few boats i have sailed too - so this is not a one off
phenomenon.
Driving a shaft generator would i 'think' cause more drag - as you dont
get

nothing for nothing - and the energy to drive that alternator has to come
from somewhere. However if you have an excess of sail power you 'might'
not

see a decrease in boat speed which after all is all that matters. I am
ignoring wear and noise issues (for the pedantic).
regards
David
2009/5/3 Dave Benjamin <dave_benjamin@ yahoo.com>
>
Ettore and Silvana,
>
You are defying the laws of physics and hydrodynamics if you really
think

the shaft alternator does not slow the boat down. In fact the turning
propeller acts almost like a disc. It generated more resistance than it
would if it was stationary. I would use one if it was already installed
but
I would not go out of my way to install a speed brake like that. There
are
some solutions in the form of a unit that is deployed from the transom.
One
of my neighbors used one to and from Hawaii and it generated
electricity

quite well.
--- On Sun, 5/3/09, Arca di Noè <arcadinoesailing@ hotmail.com<
arcadinoesailing % 40hotmail. com>>
wrote:
From: Arca di Noè <arcadinoesailing@ hotmail.com< arcadinoesailing %
40hotmail. com>
> Subject: Re: [Amel] shaft driven alternator
To: amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com <amelyachtowners% 40yahoogroups.
com>
Date: Sunday, May 3, 2009, 9:43 AM
>
Hi David and Hazel,
>
We use the shaft driven alternator in our Mango with much satisfaction.
>
No reduction the speed on sailing.
It will give 7/9 amp when running at 7/8 knots.
>
It don't works down 4 knots.
Very very important: if you have Hurth gearbox or similar, is
imperative

to
>
run the motor half our every 12 ours, to lubricate the gearbox because
r

>
shaft running isn't enaugh to lubricate the interior of the gearbox: if
the
>
motor is not on, is easy to break the interior disks of the gearbox.
Now our Mango is independent for the electriciy of Marina: 2 solar
panel

and 1 wind generator is perfectly.
> With 15/20 wind knots We have cooking the pizza in the electric four
at

220v!!!
Ettore & Silvana of Arca di Noè
> ----- Original Message -----
>
From: "David and Hazel Worthington" <spritoaffine@ yahoo.co. uk>
>
To: <amelyachtowners@ yahoogroups. com>
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 1:43 PM
>
Subject: [Amel] shaft driven alternator
Hi All
Due to the charges being imposed by marina operators now for
electricity
in the Med I have been considering various options to allow free
battery
charging
>
Our rattly Max Prop needs rebuilding and I was wondering about
replacing
it with a standard fixed prop in order to use the propshaft
alternator

but
>
am concerned about loss of speed and increase in noise when sailing,
does
>
anyone still use their prop driven alternator or has everyone turned
to

solar and wind power instead. I understand we would need a 19 inch
prop

but am not sure whether the 13 mentioned is inches or degrees of
pitch.

Our aft cabin is too noisy to sleep in on passage due to
propshaft/cutless
> bearing noise even after replacing the cutless bearing, is this
normal?

Also would we go backwards straighter with the Max Prop or a fixed
prop?
we don't have a bow thruster
> Your opinions would be appreciated
>
David and Hazel Sharki 148
>
>
>
------------ --------- --------- ------
>
>
Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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Show them the way! Add maps and directions to your party invites.

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