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Re: Heaving-to experiences/advice, and Jordan series drogue use

Ian Townsend
 





Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------
From: Miles <milesbid@...>
Date: 2019-11-16 17:11 (GMT-05:00)
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Heaving-to experiences/advice, and Jordan series drogue use

Hi Aldo,

After some new periods of heaving to, I thought I would share my experiences with the group and repeat the stories that I have told to you—please be patient, it is not all old.

The first time was in Hurricane Mitch which had crossed Florida back into the Atlantic, become a hurricane again, and was moving a 30 mph.   I had about two hours warning on my SSB (no satellite connections back then).  I prepared two drogues at the stern and a huge sea anchor at the bow.  The sea anchor was attached with 100 meters of big line, 20 meters of heavy chain, and another 100 meters of line.  I had the drogues and the sea anchor in the cockpit ready to be deployed.

When the storm arrived, I didn’t use the drogues because some of the waves were breaking and turning around didn’t seem to be a good idea; and before deploying the sea anchor, I wanted to see how long I could heave to.  I had about half the main out and a very small amount of jib, backed.  I have a big eye bolt about 2 feet under the engine controls for tying the wheel.  I used a heavy bungee that lets the wheel move some with the forces.  I tied the wheel so that the boat would head into the wind somewhat until a big wave landed on it and pushed it more sideways, after which it would head up for the next wave.  I had backed the jib because I was afraid the boat would tack through the wind.  It never came close.  The wind increased into the 60s and then the 70s.  The boat just kept doing the same thing and never felt in danger.  At some speed, the sails would have to have come down.  I was amazed that I didn’t feel this with the winds in the 70s.  The worst part was the noise.  Ear plugs would have helped.

Since then I have hove to in much less wind using just the main.  I have used this for repairs or for just a nice meal.   I find it remarkable how the sea appears to be more calm and the motion decreased when hove to. 

I had occasion to do a serious heaving to two weeks ago, on the way from Newport to Bermuda, I tried to race a storm across the Gulf Stream.  The storm won.  I hove to when the wind was in the thirties.  The wind increased into the forties and sometimes into the fifties.  I hove to under about half the main and the wheel tied with a very heavy bungee so that the boat would head up at about 2+ knots to about 40 degrees and then fall off to about 60-70 degrees and then head up again.  We averaged about 2 k forward speed.  As soon as I hove to, the commotion, the crashing into and off waves, and the waves washing over the boat simply stopped. Nothing landed in the cockpit.  The wind direction slowly changed and after 4-5 hours, I was able to add a little jib and sail out of the GS.  I think that the forereaching protects the rudder.  If the boat were to be thrown backwards by a wave, the forces on the rudder would be very great.

That is my experience. There is no “right way” to heave to.  I strongly recommend that everyone contemplating going off shore spend some time experimenting with different amounts of sail and rudder angles.  There will be some combination that feels best to you and to the boat. 

 

Regards,

Miles

s/y Ladybug, sm 216, resting at the dock at Le Marin, Martinique
Re: Raymarine autopilot

ngtnewington Newington
 

Maybe I should just stick with what I got and not worry about it?

If it ain’t broke .....
Nick

S/Y Amelia
AML 54-019

On 16 Nov 2019, at 18:38, ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

I delighted with my Raymarine Autopilot. It has been great but it is now 13 years old. Having done a lot of hand steering on my first boat, we only had a servo pendulum windvane, I know how tedious it can be. I would much rather be light on crew but have autopilot back up.
So how reliable do other owners find these Raymarine autopilots? Am I just lucky?

To that end I am thinking of buying a spare to have on board, including a new linear drive unit.

The new Raymarine would be the obvious choice;
Exactly same linear drive unit
New fancy heading sensor EV1
ACU400 drive
P70 control

Does anyone have any thoughts.

Nick
Amelia AML54-019
Ashore Kilada Greece
Re: Heaving-to experiences/advice, and Jordan series drogue use

Miles
 

Hi Aldo,

After some new periods of heaving to, I thought I would share my experiences with the group and repeat the stories that I have told to you—please be patient, it is not all old.

The first time was in Hurricane Mitch which had crossed Florida back into the Atlantic, become a hurricane again, and was moving a 30 mph.   I had about two hours warning on my SSB (no satellite connections back then).  I prepared two drogues at the stern and a huge sea anchor at the bow.  The sea anchor was attached with 100 meters of big line, 20 meters of heavy chain, and another 100 meters of line.  I had the drogues and the sea anchor in the cockpit ready to be deployed.

When the storm arrived, I didn’t use the drogues because some of the waves were breaking and turning around didn’t seem to be a good idea; and before deploying the sea anchor, I wanted to see how long I could heave to.  I had about half the main out and a very small amount of jib, backed.  I have a big eye bolt about 2 feet under the engine controls for tying the wheel.  I used a heavy bungee that lets the wheel move some with the forces.  I tied the wheel so that the boat would head into the wind somewhat until a big wave landed on it and pushed it more sideways, after which it would head up for the next wave.  I had backed the jib because I was afraid the boat would tack through the wind.  It never came close.  The wind increased into the 60s and then the 70s.  The boat just kept doing the same thing and never felt in danger.  At some speed, the sails would have to have come down.  I was amazed that I didn’t feel this with the winds in the 70s.  The worst part was the noise.  Ear plugs would have helped.

Since then I have hove to in much less wind using just the main.  I have used this for repairs or for just a nice meal.   I find it remarkable how the sea appears to be more calm and the motion decreased when hove to. 

I had occasion to do a serious heaving to two weeks ago, on the way from Newport to Bermuda, I tried to race a storm across the Gulf Stream.  The storm won.  I hove to when the wind was in the thirties.  The wind increased into the forties and sometimes into the fifties.  I hove to under about half the main and the wheel tied with a very heavy bungee so that the boat would head up at about 2+ knots to about 40 degrees and then fall off to about 60-70 degrees and then head up again.  We averaged about 2 k forward speed.  As soon as I hove to, the commotion, the crashing into and off waves, and the waves washing over the boat simply stopped. Nothing landed in the cockpit.  The wind direction slowly changed and after 4-5 hours, I was able to add a little jib and sail out of the GS.  I think that the forereaching protects the rudder.  If the boat were to be thrown backwards by a wave, the forces on the rudder would be very great.

That is my experience. There is no “right way” to heave to.  I strongly recommend that everyone contemplating going off shore spend some time experimenting with different amounts of sail and rudder angles.  There will be some combination that feels best to you and to the boat. 

 

Regards,

Miles

s/y Ladybug, sm 216, resting at the dock at Le Marin, Martinique
Re: Raymarine autopilot

ianjenkins1946 <ianjudyjenkins@hotmail.com>
 

Nick,
We have both the linear drive on the quadrant and a rotary drive , both Raymarine , with a switch over . Not missed a beat in 19 years and 63,000 miles . Pochon in Hyeres ( v. good ) took both off the boat after about 55,000 miles and serviced them but said but said both were in good condition

Ian and Judy , Pen Azen SM 302 Kilada

On 16 Nov 2019, at 18:38, ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

I delighted with my Raymarine Autopilot. It has been great but it is now 13 years old. Having done a lot of hand steering on my first boat, we only had a servo pendulum windvane, I know how tedious it can be. I would much rather be light on crew but have autopilot back up.
So how reliable do other owners find these Raymarine autopilots? Am I just lucky?

To that end I am thinking of buying a spare to have on board, including a new linear drive unit.

The new Raymarine would be the obvious choice;
Exactly same linear drive unit
New fancy heading sensor EV1
ACU400 drive
P70 control

Does anyone have any thoughts.

Nick
Amelia AML54-019
Ashore Kilada Greece
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Efector Anchor Chain Counter Sensor

Thomas Peacock
 

I also replaced the sensor. I was concerned that I would have to install another relay to invert the signal, but that was not necessary. The replacement unit works well. 

Tom Peacock
SM Aletes #240
Martinique 


On Nov 8, 2019, at 11:53 AM, "heinz@..." <heinz@...> wrote:

Hallo 
I have the same one I get it 2 years ago and it works well. 

HEINZ Sm 2000, 292

Am 09.11.2019 um 03:09 schrieb Keith Tice <amel@...>:

My chain counter recently stopped counting.
Before it stopped it was counting when we weren't looking and not counting when the anchor was moving.  
I found that the Efector IB5076 induction sensor is no longer produced, but that the IB5096 is available.
The only difference in the data sheet is that the signal NPN for IB5076 is PNP for IB5096. https://www.ifm.com/ch/en/product/IB5076 
https://www.ifm.com/ch/en/product/IB5096   
Should this be a plug compatible replacement?  
I mean, one is on a lot and turns off and the other is off a lot and turns on. It is pulsing and the counter should just be counting pulses.  
What is the opinion here?
Keith
Bikini SM 282

Re: Important Update Re: No steering parts, rack & pinion, cables, from Amel

CW Bill Rouse
 

I am sure you can rely on Amel, Thierry, & Maud. In 15 years they have never disappointed me. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Amel Owners Yacht School - www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 11:46 AM Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222 <Bijorka@...> wrote:
Good evening.
Yesterday, I spoke to Maud on the Ultrfex Control thing.
Maud assured me that Amel is in the process of settling the matter in the Amelowner's Iteresse . If Ultrafex no longer delivers Amel will find another manufacturer.
Maud was a good thing that will be found by the end of December .
After this conversation I decided to rely on Amel spare parts service as always to leave Amel. I'm always good with that.
Let's wait till Jan. If it's supposed to be different again, it's probably not a witch's work to make it look like we're just gonna have to have a pattern.

Best Elja Röllinghoff
SM Balu 222

Von meinem iPhone gesendet
Re: Auto pilot gear bolt

Mike Ondra
 

Here’s what it looks like on SM#240. Washer and Allen headed bolt. Mike
image1.jpeg

On Nov 16, 2019, at 12:36 PM, John Clark <john.biohead@...> wrote:

Hi Bob, 
   The retaining bolt is on the side of the gear.  It's an Allen head or hex head.  

John

Annie SM 37
Brunswick. GA

On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 9:13 AM Bob Ross via Groups.Io <tuwhiti=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Good day,

On a 2002 SM2K in the autopilot area above the galley sink I think this smaller gear should have a  key retaining bolt or similar in the middle of the shaft.
Having never seen it I am not sure what it looks like nor its dimensions.
Can anyone share a picture of it or any size data?

User question: is this a correct way to share a photo or is there another  preferred way?
Thanks
Bob
SV Nomad #362, Trinidad

<auto pilot gear.jpg>
Re: Raymarine autopilot

Germain Jean-Pierre
 

Hi,

I installed an ACP 400 with hydraulic ram directly on the bell crank of the rudder.

Far smoother than the electric one which is still on tthe he helm.

In the event of a major steering failure, I can steer the boat through. The AP controls after disconnecting the offending rack and pinion... without resorting to hand steering for days on end.  

System is like Paul on Kerpa.

Jean-Pierre Germain, SY Eleuthera, SM007, NZ




On 17 Nov 2019, at 08:00, Paul Osterberg <osterberg.paul.l@...> wrote:


We installed the kit you referring to about 18 month ago, I still have my old Autohelm installed, Installed a switch for swapping between them. I am not totally sold on the new Raymarine had expect it to perform better. Very good up wind, but as soon as you get the wind aft of the beam it start to swing from side to side, after some tweaking and upgrade of software it is now better but fare from excellent.
Paul on SY Kerpa SM#259
Re: Lashing the helm on a Super Maramu

Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Hi Bob and Suzanne,
That item looks perfect for the job. Thanks for sharing. I will see if any are still available from Amel. Hopefully no issues with your rudder slam, always something keeping us on our toes!

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV Trilogy, SM23


On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 12:43 PM rossirossix4 <rossidesigngroup@...> wrote:
Hi Mike and Hannah,
Don't know if this is helpful, but the photos in this link show what Amel provided on some SMs (it is on the original invoice for our SM 429). I am away from our boat re: dimensions, etc.--maybe someone else has one.   Don't know if Maud has these but would be an easy bolt on,  Amel reversed the leather on the device for gripping and it is very tight and tenacious and may prevent the travel that could add to teeth wear.  You can see the design and construction is classic "Amelian" Click on image for larger view  https://www.dropbox.com/sc/jag81gnnw41e8o5/AABXwWbF5T2N5l52d9lQt5GRa

BTW we were at a fuel dock in Italy, stern to stern with a good sized power boat.  Guy departed, evidently at near full throttle and violently slammed our (hearty) rudder to the stop--add that to the never ending procedure list we boaters have!

Cheers, Bob and Suzanne KAIMI

Re: Raymarine autopilot

Paul Osterberg
 

We installed the kit you referring to about 18 month ago, I still have my old Autohelm installed, Installed a switch for swapping between them. I am not totally sold on the new Raymarine had expect it to perform better. Very good up wind, but as soon as you get the wind aft of the beam it start to swing from side to side, after some tweaking and upgrade of software it is now better but fare from excellent.
Paul on SY Kerpa SM#259
Re: Raymarine autopilot

Matt Salatino
 

The clutch went out on our first Raymarine linear drive unit, after 17 years and 3 Atlantic crossings. The second was trouble-free, up to the time I sold the boat, 12 years later. I did carry a spare.
~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Nov 16, 2019, at 1:38 PM, ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington@...> wrote:

I  delighted with my Raymarine Autopilot. It has been great but it is now 13 years old. Having done a lot of hand steering on my first boat, we only had a servo pendulum windvane, I know how tedious it can be. I would much rather be light on crew but have autopilot back up.
So how reliable do other owners find these Raymarine autopilots? Am I just lucky?

To that end I am thinking of buying a spare to have on board, including a new linear drive unit.

The new Raymarine would be the obvious choice;
Exactly same linear drive unit
New fancy heading sensor EV1
ACU400 drive
P70 control

Does anyone have any thoughts.

Nick
Amelia AML54-019
Ashore Kilada Greece
Raymarine autopilot

ngtnewington Newington
 

I delighted with my Raymarine Autopilot. It has been great but it is now 13 years old. Having done a lot of hand steering on my first boat, we only had a servo pendulum windvane, I know how tedious it can be. I would much rather be light on crew but have autopilot back up.
So how reliable do other owners find these Raymarine autopilots? Am I just lucky?

To that end I am thinking of buying a spare to have on board, including a new linear drive unit.

The new Raymarine would be the obvious choice;
Exactly same linear drive unit
New fancy heading sensor EV1
ACU400 drive
P70 control

Does anyone have any thoughts.

Nick
Amelia AML54-019
Ashore Kilada Greece
Re: Important Update Re: No steering parts, rack & pinion, cables, from Amel

Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222
 

Good evening.
Yesterday, I spoke to Maud on the Ultrfex Control thing.
Maud assured me that Amel is in the process of settling the matter in the Amelowner's Iteresse . If Ultrafex no longer delivers Amel will find another manufacturer.
Maud was a good thing that will be found by the end of December .
After this conversation I decided to rely on Amel spare parts service as always to leave Amel. I'm always good with that.
Let's wait till Jan. If it's supposed to be different again, it's probably not a witch's work to make it look like we're just gonna have to have a pattern.

Best Elja Röllinghoff
SM Balu 222

Von meinem iPhone gesendet
Re: Auto pilot gear bolt

John Clark
 

Hi Bob, 
   The retaining bolt is on the side of the gear.  It's an Allen head or hex head.  

John

Annie SM 37
Brunswick. GA

On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 9:13 AM Bob Ross via Groups.Io <tuwhiti=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Good day,

On a 2002 SM2K in the autopilot area above the galley sink I think this smaller gear should have a  key retaining bolt or similar in the middle of the shaft.
Having never seen it I am not sure what it looks like nor its dimensions.
Can anyone share a picture of it or any size data?

User question: is this a correct way to share a photo or is there another  preferred way?
Thanks
Bob
SV Nomad #362, Trinidad
Re: Auto pilot gear bolt

CW Bill Rouse
 

Bob,

The following was snipped from the Raymarine Installation PDF:
image.png

--
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   


On Sat, Nov 16, 2019 at 8:13 AM Bob Ross via Groups.Io <tuwhiti=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Good day,

On a 2002 SM2K in the autopilot area above the galley sink I think this smaller gear should have a  key retaining bolt or similar in the middle of the shaft.
Having never seen it I am not sure what it looks like nor its dimensions.
Can anyone share a picture of it or any size data?

User question: is this a correct way to share a photo or is there another  preferred way?
Thanks
Bob
SV Nomad #362, Trinidad
Re: Heaving-to experiences/advice, and Jordan series drogue use

Joerg Esdorn
 

Hi Aldo, we’ve hove to once to fix a staysail sheet which was not holding.  Just had the reefed main up in 35 to 40 knots true.  The boat would lie sideways to the seas and winds and sit very quietly drifting downwind at 2 kn maybe.  Seas were not high west of Gibraltar so that was ok.  In more serious conditions, I would try to bring the bow up more with the mizzen.  


Joerg Esdorn
A55 Kincsem, # 53
Vigo, Spain
Re: Important Update Re: No steering parts, rack & pinion, cables, from Amel

Antonio, Vagabundo SN108
 

Hi guys , Hi owners, Hi Thierry and Maud,

I particularly want to write these lines to give the right meaning back to the discussion.  
I will apologize if I am not short, but I humbly believe that I can interpret the thoughts of many owners and friends. 
The ferment that has developed around the theme of ultraflex cables in my opinion is extremely positive and necessary. 
When I bought Vagabundo I was not aware of the existence of this forum, but thanks amel yacht owners forum and thanks Olivier, over the years I managed my boat to back to the right level of maintenance, so that it could finally be a blue Water Cruise again. 
Many owners entrust their dreams and lives to the boats built and designed by Henri AMEL and thanks to the construction quality of the AMEL shipyard, we all sail safely with our boats.
But there is a particularly important aspect that must never be underestimated and it is the age and the obsolescence of a lot of equipments installed on our boats.
There is no anxiety, no fear in this.  
If there were anxiety and fear, none of us would take the sea and only a crowds would leave the land entrusting their lives to a boat that he considers unsafe.
But if there is one thing I learned during my life spent at sea is that the attention to small details often makes the difference between a happy ending and a misfortune.  
Precisely this attention (that is often found in the posts and discussions of this forum that I call the big family AMEL) has given the AMEL boats in the world and on the used market a great reputation.
I am therefore sure that the food for thought that will arise in this group will be an inexhaustible source of information and advice for amel itself so that over the years more safe and reliable boats can be produced like  in the past. 
At the same time it is inevitable to recognize the fact that many boats that sail have reached an age by now and that a lot of equipment needs a thorough maintenance if not a complete replacement. 
It is clear that the goodness of the materials used has permitted that many years have passed since they were assembled on our boats.  During these years many equipment manufacturers have failed, they have closed, they have changed their business, they have passed on to a better life.  
In the future, it will certainly be necessary to find adjustments and solutions to more or less serious problems that will arise.  I personally believe that it is extremely erroneous and dangerous to underestimate the needs of each owner and of each boat that are expressed in this forum.
Therefore, concluding my speech, I am sure that this time too AMEL will demonstrate sensitivity and attention to a problem that has been necessary to resolve.  At the same time I am sure that it is ultra Flex, a company that I know, it will be able to provide all of us and all the owners who want to take action with a safe solution to the problem that we discussed in this forum.
Br and Fair wind
Antonio Martina e Azzurra 
On board in Tuscany 
Vagabundo Santorin number 108


Inviato da iPhone

Il giorno 15 nov 2019, alle ore 18:35, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> ha scritto:


To review what I previously wrote: I received an email from Uflex USA, the Ultraflex distributor in the US. Email message to me from Uflex USA: Ultraflex, Italy is in contact with Chantier Amel in France, apparently they will be able to supply them a last batch of cables. When one SM owner noticed that the email from Uflex stated only "cables" and not racks, 3 days ago I wrote: "I believe that the US distributor probably misstated what Ultraflex is doing, but since I am not speaking directly to Ultraflex, Italy, I cannot know for sure. Since apparently Thierry BILLARD, manager of SAV at Amel, is in discussions with Ultraflex, I feel it is improper for me to get directly involved. The answer to your question will come from an owner ordering the racks from Amel. I am sure we will know more soon."

Yesterday Thierry Billard SAV Manager emailed me and said: "We suddenly face with numerous emails and phone calls asking for info or order on pinion and rack of the steering system. We suspect you to have posted an anxiolitic message on the social network about a risk of shortage.  Does it  right ? For your review we are about to receive mid of Décember the first units  of the internal toothed bar that must solve almost all this wear issues .The only obligation will be to dismount the pinion rack case to replace this worn toothed bar. Although your help is greatly appreciatly among the Amel community we request you from now to submit us for pre approval any new further message of this sort or to consult us if more info is needed."

Of course it is not my intention to cause "panic" as Maud wrote. My only intention is to help any of you find the information that you need. But, in my attempt to help several of you, I have irritated two good people at Amel. Possibly they think that I am causing "panic" because they are on the receiving side of the solution to this steering parts issue. I will assure you that all I did is what I challenge myself every day to do...that is is help each of you enjoy your Amel while you own her. I have the utmost respect for Thierry and Maud who always do an amazing job helping owners of Amels.

I CC'd Thierry Billard of this email. He will be able to read this so that there is no misunderstanding. 
--
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   


Auto pilot gear bolt

Bob Ross
 

Good day,

On a 2002 SM2K in the autopilot area above the galley sink I think this smaller gear should have a  key retaining bolt or similar in the middle of the shaft.
Having never seen it I am not sure what it looks like nor its dimensions.
Can anyone share a picture of it or any size data?

User question: is this a correct way to share a photo or is there another  preferred way?
Thanks
Bob
SV Nomad #362, Trinidad
Re: Windshield and Port Window Update

Charles Bell
 

Hello Jeremy,

Thank you for sharing your source of parts! Thank you for organizing this. 

We are currently refitting of Mango #29. Our dodger is removed and our glass is out, so the timing is perfect and we will join your order.

Are you redoing the deck hatches as well?


Thank you,

Charles
SV Jupiter
Mango #29
@CruisingJupiter - Facebook
new to Amel Owner Group

Volker Hasenauer
 

Hi Everybody,

we just registered a few days ago with the Amel Owners Group and thought its no a bad idea to introduce our self.  

Michaela & myself (Volker) just bought a Amel Santorin from 1990 (SN 027). The boat is currently in Borneo/Malaysia, however we will bring her back to Langkawi/Malaysia soon.

We are long term expats in Malaysia. Our previous boat, a Hans Christian 43, was sold a couple of years ago because work commitment was too high, however now time is "ours" and we plan to explore the Andaman Sea and in future most likely a "bit" further as well with our Amel.

We took the chance to rename the boat, she is now called "Aquamarine"

I started to read with much interest the mails from the group and enjoy the information shared.

Since our Amel is not quite new, I am sure we will have as well "this & that" to share or to ask the group about some advice.

Greetings from Malaysia

Volker & Michaela