Date   

Re: Amel is going lithium

Joerg Esdorn
 

Sorry, Ofer.  It appears I didn’t post the pics.  Here they are. Sorry for the delay. 


Re: When to use Running Back Stays and Onan Control Board PCB

Joerg Esdorn
 

Another try to attach the pictures.  


Re: Annapolis Boat Show

Charles Bell
 

Hello Jay,

I am currently working on a complete refit of Mango #29, almost in eyesight of the boat show...

If you would like to catch up at the show, I will be around and happy to chat. I have mountains of information regarding the engineering and usability choices we have made... and I am happy to share documents.


Charles


Re: Converting my Amel 54 to lithium batteries: what I did, what I like and what I don't like (after one year of full time live aboard use)

Scott SV Tengah
 

I'm sure I'm using the wrong terminology, but Victron's intent (from their engineer's mouths) is that you put the "control wires" through the BP-220.

For example, the thin wires leading from the bow thruster joystick, which carry very little current, would go through the BP-220 but not the big thick wires that carry the current to actually operate the bowthruster. However if you "load disconnect" the wires from the joystick, the bowthruster won't operate, achieving the load disconnect's aim.

I think to segregate it like that on an Amel would be a big project since it wasn't designed from the outset to accommodate a load-disconnect system.
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Converting my Amel 54 to lithium batteries: what I did, what I like and what I don't like (after one year of full time live aboard use)

Brent Cameron
 

Thanks Scott.  I am making copious notes for when I get my own Amel.    A side hobby has been following the whole Lithium thing (even outside of sailboats) so your experience is quite apropos!  I did look up the cost of those 25.6V batteries and you definitely made the right decision!  (They seem to be double the cost of the same capacity configured your way).  I also looked at the Victron documentation and sample schematics for the BP-200 and it seems like they always have it configured as a master cutoff like you have - even with much bigger battery banks.  I’m a bit surprised by this as they are essentially limiting the battery bank to discharging 200A no matter how much capacity it has - albeit 200A at 24V is a whole lot of power so I’m surprised your Passerelle melted it.  I would suspect that your bow thruster has similar or greater current draw.  You might want to look into why it was drawing >> 200A as it is just a hydraulic pump I thought.  Anyway, thanks for responding to my questions.  Fair winds!

On September 5, 2019, 10:49 PM -0400, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...>, wrote:
Brent,

Glad you found some value in it. I went through a lot of brain damage to get to where I am today, so no need for others to repeat my mistakes.

Answers to your questions:

1) That is correct, 1 fuse per 25.8v pair.
2) You are correct - no worries, if I'm wrong about something, I'd rather have someone point it out than for me to remain blissfully ignorant about my ignorance. :) They are daisy chained. I tried to use the BP-220 but that failed due to overcurrent. I think the Victron system responds to over/under voltage in a very blunt manner - I don't believe it shuts down nor disconnects individual batteries. One of the cells in one of the batteries is over voltage and the all of the chargers stop charging. In the under voltage situation, it just cuts off your load to prevent battery damage until the charger(s) have raised voltage back above the lower limit.

Each battery can be monitored (temp and cell voltages) via bluetooth. I surmise if your BMS cut everything off, you could check individually and then remove the battery (or more accurately the battery and the one it's serially connected to) from the bank and continue on.

3) My understanding of the low voltage cutoff is that it's "global"  - so the VE.BUS BMS can't instruct a specific BP-220 to load disconnect. I actually think your idea of putting three BP-220s in the system, one for each battery pair MIGHT work to protect the batteries, but as I said, the load disconnect signal is global. Nowhere in the documentation does it show the capacity to assign specific a specific load disconnector to specific batteries. I'm loathe to spend more money on BP-220s when a single one should have been able to handle the passarelle. 

4) The height on the 25.6/200 is a problem. Even with my 12.8/150 model, I had to trim a bit of the bracing on the lid. I just looked and noted the 12.8/200 is reported to be the same size as the 12.8/150. I'm not sure this model existed at the time I installed my system AND it seems a bit odd that you get 33% more capacity with the same size and only 10% more weight. So it may be a typo. But if not, it's an easy way to get more capacity.
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-12,8-&-25,6-Volt-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries-Smart-EN.pdf

6) Great idea in general. I will say that my Volvo isn't ground isolated. A previous owner replaced the 12v alternator and didn't put the isolated version in, so the negative is connected to the bonding system. I've been told by very knowledgable Amel reps that it's not ideal to have the 12v negative connected, but it's not a huge problem. Hell, most boats are setup that way. I'm careful, so we installed an additional "main battery switch" whereby I can disconnect the 12v negative when I'm anchored for a while or tied up, so as to eliminate the connection between 12v negative and bonding. This also prevents the genset/engine from starting, obviously. 

But your idea is very good.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada


Re: Solar Panels

Scott SV Tengah
 

I'll echo Porter's praise of the LG panels. I have the Neon2 320w and combined they should output 960w.

My MPPT is supposed to handle 1000watts / 35amps and has maxed out more than once, indicating the LG is putting out more than rated output. I add about 200-250AH a day via the LGs.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Annapolis Boat Show

Scott SV Tengah
 

We'll be there, most likely anchored out in Back Creek starting Monday of that week.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Converting my Amel 54 to lithium batteries: what I did, what I like and what I don't like (after one year of full time live aboard use)

Scott SV Tengah
 

I considered waiting too and we decided we wanted to be able to take advantage of the benefits now, during our circumnavigation. 

It is a personal decision though. The technology isn't to the point where you just order it off the shelf, drop it in and it all works perfectly. I think even with current systems, you could achieve that, but it requires lots of thinking and planning to get there. It's simply too new for most marine electricians to understand. Lead acid has been around for nearly 100 years and can take the abuse. I would argue that, given the number of Amel's I've heard of with lead acid battery bank explosions/problems, lead acid isn't there either.

For us, however, the ability to run the washer, the dishwasher, the toaster, the microwave, the induction cooker, the projector, the water maker, the water heater, aircon,...all without turning on the generator and getting a massive boost in charging efficiency and high load output efficiency - well I wouldn't want to give that up and wait for something that may be better at some indeterminate point in the future. 

The problem with lithium is that there isn't a boat-specific drop in solution. It's too new and there are far too few users for any company to put the R&D into that. I surmise when the new technology comes out, the same lag will be there. 

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Converting my Amel 54 to lithium batteries: what I did, what I like and what I don't like (after one year of full time live aboard use)

Scott SV Tengah
 
Edited

Correct, the Reg-on wire does turn on/off the alternator. 

I installed the manual in-line switch. I will, in fact, turn off the alternator manually during long motoring days, especially if it's sunny.  However, I don't really like a system that requires me to think about it because there will inevitably be one time when I forget. And with lithium, it's just too expensive to leave the health of the system dependent on me never screwing up and forgetting.

As you alluded, none of the manual systems will not correct an over voltage condition. That is, unless you either monitor the batteries constantly through bluetooth or wire the VE.BUS BMS to sound an alarm at over voltage. But then that goes back to requiring your perfect intervention.  So we need to figure out a way to get the VE.BUS BMS "charge disconnect" signal to disconnect the Mastervolt Reg-on wire. Hopefully that Schneider relay draws so little current that the 10mA VE.BUS Bms charge disconnect circuit can trigger it.
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Converting my Amel 54 to lithium batteries: what I did, what I like and what I don't like (after one year of full time live aboard use)

Scott SV Tengah
 

Paul,

I generally try to keep it between 40-80% but yes, the Victron literature tells you to charge to 100% every month or two to allow the BMV-712 battery monitor to re-calibrate. I believe it also allows your cells to balance out. We do this but only once every month or two.

My understanding is that if you don't do super heavy draws (eg - 1C or 450 amps in my case) or charge to the absolute highest voltage recommended, the batteries will tend to stay in balance. That has been our experience over the last year. 

To be safe, once a year, I will charge up the bank completely using the Quattro then disconnecting all the batteries and charging them individually with a 12.8v 1.5amp charger until completely full. That's to maintain balance - most likely major overkill, but the cost of the system is quite high, so I'm ok overdoing it. :)

I think you will still need to run the genset now and then. If we have excess energy (eg - over 80% SOC), we will run the water maker to burn off energy. But often, we just do it while motoring. I considered adding another 220 watts (Sunpower flexible panels) on the Bimini. That would put me close to 1200 watts. But the cost and complication of that was too much for me right now (plenty of other higher priority items!) and I resigned to using the genset twice a week. At the end of the day, we should probably use the genset a bit, otherwise my understanding is that non-use can damage it also.


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Converting my Amel 54 to lithium batteries: what I did, what I like and what I don't like (after one year of full time live aboard use)

Scott SV Tengah
 

Joerg,

1) I need to do more research when I get ready to wire my genset to start automatically, but I have heard that the Onan will shut itself down if it detects low oil pressure, over temperature on the coolant, etc. Does anyone know if this is true?

2) It can get warm, yes. It's in the engine room where the old Dolphin 100 was located. There is an air intake directed right at it, which Amel installed for the Dolphin. The Quattro has its own fans and they will kick on after a long period of charging or high load inverting. But I can only hear it if the engine room hatch is open and I've never noted charging current being limited or inverting wattage being limited, so at least with my usage, heat has not been a problem. Another post mentioned it would be nice to have the Quattro trigger the Amel-installed exhaust fans if temps got above XXXX, which I think is a great idea. The Quattro has programmable relays, so that shouldn't be difficult.

3) The way the Quattro is setup is that you have AC-Out1 which feeds both passthrough shorepower/genset 230v AND inverter 230V. There is then AC-Out2 which only feeds passthrough shorepower/genset 230v. The only thing we have wired to AC-Out2 is the Victron Skylla-i 24/80 charger. 

I didn't do the actual connection but had a long discussion with the electrician to ensure the practical operation was how I wanted it. He didn't note any difficulties in wiring it up, so I presume it wasn't hard.

4) First off, I wouldn't want them staying at 100% or anywhere near that. Lithium irreversibly loses capacity if you hold them at high SOC. Secondly, there is a small load from the 24-12v downconverters and frankly, I don't want to lose all the saved settings on the radio, B&G, etc. If the boat is in the water, I want to have power in case the bilge pumps need to operate. Call me paranoid, but well, things happen!


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Converting my Amel 54 to lithium batteries: what I did, what I like and what I don't like (after one year of full time live aboard use)

Scott SV Tengah
 

Brent,

Glad you found some value in it. I went through a lot of brain damage to get to where I am today, so no need for others to repeat my mistakes.

Answers to your questions:

1) That is correct, 1 fuse per 25.8v pair.
2) You are correct - no worries, if I'm wrong about something, I'd rather have someone point it out than for me to remain blissfully ignorant about my ignorance. :) They are daisy chained. I tried to use the BP-220 but that failed due to overcurrent. I think the Victron system responds to over/under voltage in a very blunt manner - I don't believe it shuts down nor disconnects individual batteries. One of the cells in one of the batteries is over voltage and the all of the chargers stop charging. In the under voltage situation, it just cuts off your load to prevent battery damage until the charger(s) have raised voltage back above the lower limit.

Each battery can be monitored (temp and cell voltages) via bluetooth. I surmise if your BMS cut everything off, you could check individually and then remove the battery (or more accurately the battery and the one it's serially connected to) from the bank and continue on.

3) My understanding of the low voltage cutoff is that it's "global"  - so the VE.BUS BMS can't instruct a specific BP-220 to load disconnect. I actually think your idea of putting three BP-220s in the system, one for each battery pair MIGHT work to protect the batteries, but as I said, the load disconnect signal is global. Nowhere in the documentation does it show the capacity to assign specific a specific load disconnector to specific batteries. I'm loathe to spend more money on BP-220s when a single one should have been able to handle the passarelle. 

4) The height on the 25.6/200 is a problem. Even with my 12.8/150 model, I had to trim a bit of the bracing on the lid. I just looked and noted the 12.8/200 is reported to be the same size as the 12.8/150. I'm not sure this model existed at the time I installed my system AND it seems a bit odd that you get 33% more capacity with the same size and only 10% more weight. So it may be a typo. But if not, it's an easy way to get more capacity.
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-12,8-&-25,6-Volt-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries-Smart-EN.pdf

6) Great idea in general. I will say that my Volvo isn't ground isolated. A previous owner replaced the 12v alternator and didn't put the isolated version in, so the negative is connected to the bonding system. I've been told by very knowledgable Amel reps that it's not ideal to have the 12v negative connected, but it's not a huge problem. Hell, most boats are setup that way. I'm careful, so we installed an additional "main battery switch" whereby I can disconnect the 12v negative when I'm anchored for a while or tied up, so as to eliminate the connection between 12v negative and bonding. This also prevents the genset/engine from starting, obviously. 

But your idea is very good.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: C-Drive vs Linecutter

Tim Melbourne
 

Here's a related problem- either a crack or deep scratch along the surface that seats the V-plug O-ring (see attached photo).  
Last haul out my oil also came out milky, but the propshaft seals were 4 years past changeout date, so I can't know whether seawater got in under the O-ring via this crack or through the mainshaft seals. 
Anybody have an idea for a fix?   Fill it with epoxy and sand it fine?  Somehow put in a new seating?  
Previous owner said "Ignore it, it's been there since 2003." which I find unsettling. 

Tim 
SM2K #306


Re: Converting my Amel 54 to lithium batteries: what I did, what I like and what I don't like (after one year of full time live aboard use)

Scott SV Tengah
 
Edited

Nick,

I can't recall exactly, but 15k euros excluding the solar arch/panels/MPPT is probably about right.
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Annapolis Boat Show

Mark Erdos
 

Jay and Dale,

 

You should touch base with Bill Rouse, a fellow Texan and Admiral in the Texas Navy. He is in the Houston area and could guide you through the process of getting a good Amel.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Vista Mar, Panama

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jay Pokorski
Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 1:46 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Group Moderators
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Annapolis Boat Show

 

My wife and I will be in Annapolis Wed through Fri (boat show week). We're 1-2yrs from being in the market, and would love to meet Amel owners to learn more about your experiences - particularly with the SM. I certainly appreciate all the knowledge shared through the group regarding maintenance - it's pushing Amels to the top of our list.

 

Best Regards,

 

Jay and Dale Pokorski

Tartan 33

San Antonio, TX, USA

 

On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 8:29 AM karkauai via Groups.Io <karkauai=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Iris and I will be driving over to Annapolis for the show.  If there’s a get-together for dinner and/or drinks, we’d like to join in.

Kent Robertson

S/V Kristy SM243

St Michaels, MD


On Sep 4, 2019, at 10:23 AM, Mark McGovern <mfmcgovern@...> wrote:

Mike,

No problem.  JL Mertz's Speedi-Sleeve idea is a good one too as the surface finish on the shaft is really not good enough to ensure a good seal with the oil seal. 

Regarding the Annapolis Boat Show, we will definitely be at the show but we are not sure if we will taking Cara or just driving.  It's such a zoo around there at that time and we can't take the days off work to get there early enough to be ensured of a decent anchoring spot.  Definitely let me know what the plans are as they develop!

--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA


Re: Location of the fuse for the chain washing pump requested

 

Find this box in the engine room and you have found the circuit breaker for the anchor wash:
image.png
Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970



On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 2:05 PM Willem Kroes <kavanga@...> wrote:
Dear Amelians,

A few months ago I changed on my SM 2k the light (the whole unit plus light) for the LPG switch on the 24 V panel. It is almost in the middle of the panel and difficult to get it fixed. On one moment there was a short, but I did not see any problems afterwards then.  Later on I discovered the chain washing pump was not working (also no light). So I suppose the short did blow the fuse of the pump or switch. Does anyone knows the location of this fuse?

Best regards,

Willem Kroes

SM2K #351 KAVANGA

now in the Ionian in Greece


Re: Solar Panels

Porter McRoberts
 

My LG 315 panels consistently out perform their rating of 315w giving up to 350w. They are about 2.3 years old. I haven’t seen any degradation. 
Good Luck Nick. 
Now I’m looking at wind gens!


Porter
A54-152 
Niue



Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Sep 5, 2019, at 6:07 AM, Matt Salatino via Groups.Io <helmsmatt@...> wrote:

My experience might be an outlier, but I had the best luck with the lowest price, Chinese panels, Trina, and a bad experience with the best, SunPower. After 4 years, the SunPower output 55%. They would not honor their warranty. The Trina’s after 5 years, are doing great.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Sep 5, 2019, at 6:48 AM, ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington@...> wrote:

Hello fellow Amel owners,

In 2017 I purchased Amelia in Grenada and built a solar and wind arch. It has been great. I installed what was available at the time; namely two 265w mono panels measuring 1655mm x 992mm.

I am pretty close to self sufficient if there is some wind, but as we all know you can not have too much power,  especially as I have a 2.4kw inverter that can soak up a lot of power. 

I am back in the UK for a few weeks and see, Canadian Solar have a mono 410w panel  measuring 1700mm x 992mm. The same width but only 45mm longer. This would pump out over 50% extra….in those two years the technology has improved a lot!!! The amazing thing is that the prices have fallen too. I paid US$ 363 for each panel. Still waiting on prices but will be less for sure. It would not be a huge expense to upgrade the panels as the whole infrastructure is already in place. 50% extra solar output is huge.

Does anyone have any opinion as to the very best panel to buy? Is there any specific technology I should look for? 

This is just brainstorming at the moment...

Happy sailing 

Nick

S/Y Amelia AML 54-019
Kefalonia, Greece.



Location of the fuse for the chain washing pump requested

Willem Kroes
 

Dear Amelians,

A few months ago I changed on my SM 2k the light (the whole unit plus light) for the LPG switch on the 24 V panel. It is almost in the middle of the panel and difficult to get it fixed. On one moment there was a short, but I did not see any problems afterwards then.  Later on I discovered the chain washing pump was not working (also no light). So I suppose the short did blow the fuse of the pump or switch. Does anyone knows the location of this fuse?

Best regards,

Willem Kroes

SM2K #351 KAVANGA

now in the Ionian in Greece


Re: Annapolis Boat Show

Jay Pokorski
 

My wife and I will be in Annapolis Wed through Fri (boat show week). We're 1-2yrs from being in the market, and would love to meet Amel owners to learn more about your experiences - particularly with the SM. I certainly appreciate all the knowledge shared through the group regarding maintenance - it's pushing Amels to the top of our list.

Best Regards,

Jay and Dale Pokorski
Tartan 33
San Antonio, TX, USA

On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 8:29 AM karkauai via Groups.Io <karkauai=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Iris and I will be driving over to Annapolis for the show.  If there’s a get-together for dinner and/or drinks, we’d like to join in.

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy SM243
St Michaels, MD

On Sep 4, 2019, at 10:23 AM, Mark McGovern <mfmcgovern@...> wrote:

Mike,

No problem.  JL Mertz's Speedi-Sleeve idea is a good one too as the surface finish on the shaft is really not good enough to ensure a good seal with the oil seal. 

Regarding the Annapolis Boat Show, we will definitely be at the show but we are not sure if we will taking Cara or just driving.  It's such a zoo around there at that time and we can't take the days off work to get there early enough to be ensured of a decent anchoring spot.  Definitely let me know what the plans are as they develop!

--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA


Amel 54

@Apsara01
 

AMEL 54 - Apsara 
experiences about Refit in Croatia?