Date   

Re: Amel is going lithium

Scott SV Tengah
 

Porter, 

I guess you mean far from the panels to the mppt? 

Maybe you can experiment with parallel to see if you get higher output. I believe parallel is better than serial when you have shading on some panels and not others. 

I have the 3 pairs of wires from the panels to a switch in the aft lazarette.  Then one pair from the lazarette to the mppt which is behind the main switches in the passage berth. Of course the batteries are near there. 

Seems to be no problem with the distance as I'm getting up to 6500wh per day as you can see on the data I posted earlier. 
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Amel is going lithium

Stephen Davis
 

Sorry....Wrong recipient!

On Aug 6, 2019, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Davis via Groups.Io <flyboyscd@...> wrote:

Very cool...Hope I’m able to still do that when I’m 82. This is my cool ne airplane. 

image1.jpeg
image2.jpeg
image3.jpeg


On Aug 6, 2019, at 9:11 AM, Paul Brown <feeder.brown@...> wrote:

Hey Scott, thank you and I was figuring a 5000w inverter upgrade (Maybe a 7500w when available)to run all from 24v when possible, I too have a Bauer junior. I guess then genset is still a great reliable generation item and needed for those jobs, but’s it is great to live off batteries most of the time and look forward to the day when it’s easy.

Nice sharing with you and thanks for the advice 

Regards Paul Fortuna II A55#17


On 6 Aug 2019, at 8:36 pm, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Paul,

At the risk of costing you some money on upgrades, I will say that being able to run all the 220v appliances without the genset is one of the biggest advantages of having lithium. Especially the washing machine as it takes such a long time and has such variable draw but a low average draw, so you're unnecessarily adding runtime to the genset unless you batch it with a lot of other uses.

We have the Victron Quattro 24v/5000va/120amp. At 5000watts, more or less, the only 220v appliance that won't run is the Bauer Junior II scuba compressor. And that's only due to the startup current required. I can probably start the scuba compressor with the genset and continue with the inverter. With your mostly Mastervolt setup, I'd suggest sticking to Mastervolt so the batteries can talk to the inverter. But I'm sure Mastervolt has a similar product.

The danger of having that much inverter capacity is that people sometimes think it's really like being at home. The admiral has been known to run the electric boiler, induction stovetop and microwave at the same time on battery/inverter. With respect to the batteries, it's only around half the recommended continuous draw, but it still makes me cringe!

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Amel is going lithium

Stephen Davis
 

Very cool...Hope I’m able to still do that when I’m 82. This is my cool ne airplane. 

image1.jpeg
image2.jpeg
image3.jpeg


On Aug 6, 2019, at 9:11 AM, Paul Brown <feeder.brown@...> wrote:

Hey Scott, thank you and I was figuring a 5000w inverter upgrade (Maybe a 7500w when available)to run all from 24v when possible, I too have a Bauer junior. I guess then genset is still a great reliable generation item and needed for those jobs, but’s it is great to live off batteries most of the time and look forward to the day when it’s easy.

Nice sharing with you and thanks for the advice 

Regards Paul Fortuna II A55#17


On 6 Aug 2019, at 8:36 pm, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Paul,

At the risk of costing you some money on upgrades, I will say that being able to run all the 220v appliances without the genset is one of the biggest advantages of having lithium. Especially the washing machine as it takes such a long time and has such variable draw but a low average draw, so you're unnecessarily adding runtime to the genset unless you batch it with a lot of other uses.

We have the Victron Quattro 24v/5000va/120amp. At 5000watts, more or less, the only 220v appliance that won't run is the Bauer Junior II scuba compressor. And that's only due to the startup current required. I can probably start the scuba compressor with the genset and continue with the inverter. With your mostly Mastervolt setup, I'd suggest sticking to Mastervolt so the batteries can talk to the inverter. But I'm sure Mastervolt has a similar product.

The danger of having that much inverter capacity is that people sometimes think it's really like being at home. The admiral has been known to run the electric boiler, induction stovetop and microwave at the same time on battery/inverter. With respect to the batteries, it's only around half the recommended continuous draw, but it still makes me cringe!

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Shore power contactor burnt out

Eamonn Washington
 

Hi

The aft lazarette shore power breaker is mounted in a plastic purpose made housing with just the breaker switches protruding.  The manual transfer switch is housed in the original housing of the original contactor, after a little cutting.

No, I was not able to source a galvanic isolator here but it is on my to-do list.  What size galvanic isolator is required?  With 20A breakers I suppose it makes no sense to go for a higher rated galvanic isolator for the earth connection.

--
Eamonn Washington
Travel Bug
Super Maramu #151
Currently in Cagliari, Sardinia, Italy.


Re: Amel is going lithium

Porter McRoberts
 

We run in series as it’s a bit far from the mppt 90v to the mppt 


Porter

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 6, 2019, at 9:53 AM, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Porter,

You've astutely pointed out one of the major advantages of Lifepo4. 

Charging your lead (?) batteries between 80-100% maximizes their longevity but results in them having trouble accepting even mid-day full current from your panels. With lifepo4, it can accept full current until high 90s state of charge. 

As a corollary, we have 220v chargers that total 200amps. The batteries accept the full current up until 95-98% and that's why our genset runtime is so short. Add in the charging efficiency with only 3% lost through heat vs. 20%+ on lead and it makes a huge difference on both genset usage and solar charging efficiency. 

PS - are you running the 3 panels serial or parallel? If you aren't sure, you can check the voltages on the numerical data. 





--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Amel is going lithium

Scott SV Tengah
 

Hanspeter,

Things must be lost in translation for both of us.

My mind was blown when learning about lithium and after a year aboard with it, I can attest that many of the advantages are real. I'll complete that writeup soon and hopefully it will answer all your questions. My system isn't perfect and I'm hoping some of the shortcomings can be solved by the group's collective brainpower.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Amel is going lithium

Scott SV Tengah
 

I am not familiar with the sizing on the Mastervolt inverter/chargers, but for Victron their 8000va model was too heavy for my piece of mind. 

Agree with you on keeping the genset. I rarely run it but I'm happy we have it. It's not always sunny. :)
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Amel is going lithium

Scott SV Tengah
 

Porter,

You've astutely pointed out one of the major advantages of Lifepo4. 

Charging your lead (?) batteries between 80-100% maximizes their longevity but results in them having trouble accepting even mid-day full current from your panels. With lifepo4, it can accept full current until high 90s state of charge. 

As a corollary, we have 220v chargers that total 200amps. The batteries accept the full current up until 95-98% and that's why our genset runtime is so short. Add in the charging efficiency with only 3% lost through heat vs. 20%+ on lead and it makes a huge difference on both genset usage and solar charging efficiency. 

PS - are you running the 3 panels serial or parallel? If you aren't sure, you can check the voltages on the numerical data. 





--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Amel is going lithium

Paul Brown
 

Hey Scott, thank you and I was figuring a 5000w inverter upgrade (Maybe a 7500w when available)to run all from 24v when possible, I too have a Bauer junior. I guess then genset is still a great reliable generation item and needed for those jobs, but’s it is great to live off batteries most of the time and look forward to the day when it’s easy.

Nice sharing with you and thanks for the advice 

Regards Paul Fortuna II A55#17


On 6 Aug 2019, at 8:36 pm, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Paul,

At the risk of costing you some money on upgrades, I will say that being able to run all the 220v appliances without the genset is one of the biggest advantages of having lithium. Especially the washing machine as it takes such a long time and has such variable draw but a low average draw, so you're unnecessarily adding runtime to the genset unless you batch it with a lot of other uses.

We have the Victron Quattro 24v/5000va/120amp. At 5000watts, more or less, the only 220v appliance that won't run is the Bauer Junior II scuba compressor. And that's only due to the startup current required. I can probably start the scuba compressor with the genset and continue with the inverter. With your mostly Mastervolt setup, I'd suggest sticking to Mastervolt so the batteries can talk to the inverter. But I'm sure Mastervolt has a similar product.

The danger of having that much inverter capacity is that people sometimes think it's really like being at home. The admiral has been known to run the electric boiler, induction stovetop and microwave at the same time on battery/inverter. With respect to the batteries, it's only around half the recommended continuous draw, but it still makes me cringe!

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Amel is going lithium

hanspeter baettig
 

Scott
sorry You completely misunderstand me
and
I do not like your message towards me!Thats not the way we comunicate within this forum !

I only ask you how you can handel your battery capacity. I‘m an owner of a SM Nr.16 since 25 Years and I never heard from other Amel Owners, even not from Amel , what you ! can do with your Lithium Power Bank
anyway fair winds and good luck
Hanspeter
SM16
Tamango 2
Trinidad

------ Original Nachricht ------
Am Dienstag, 6. Aug, 2019 um 18:20, Scott SV Tengah schrieb:

Hanspeter,

Given the tone of your message, I get the impression that you're quite argumentative. I'm not interested in getting into an internet urination contest, so I'll just provide data and verifiable facts for you.

First, you are close to correct in the water maker calc. Yes, I make water on battery alone, generally with a fully charged battery. I am not on the boat now - damn hurricane season, but the manual tells me the 24v duo 100 motor draws 600watts. Lithium fully charged is 3.6 volts per cell and has a very small voltage drop on such a small load given my 450ah/24 bank. Even the windlass doesn't result in a huge voltage drop. People who have not used lithium are amazed when they see that. So we'll be conservative and use your 25 amps per hour. I average about 80l/hr from my Duo100. That's 11.25 hours to fill up an empty water tank. The Peukert effect is negligible on a lifepo4 battery, another surprise for many so 25*11.25 = 281.25AH.  Given my battery bank is 450AH, the battery bank still has 60% left after making water for almost half a day.

For the solar panels, I'll just attach the latest data output from my Victron solar charge controller. I use LG Neon2 320w panels x 3. 

Fair winds,

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Amel is going lithium

Porter McRoberts
 

Here’s the lithium difference: we also have about the same solar 3x LG315s. We’re in FP. Nice sunny days. 
Attached is our last month. We just can’t absorb the energy like a lithium, we go between 100 and 80% and run the generator about a half hour a day in average. 

See attachment

image1.png



Porter A54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 6, 2019, at 6:31 AM, Paul Brown <feeder.brown@...> wrote:

Scott, unfortunately my aircon and washing machine and water maker does not work of my inverter otherwise I’d love to, maybe I can upgrade my inverter and wire them in to the 720ah lithium 24v system 

Regards Paul 



On 6 Aug 2019, at 6:21 pm, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Paul,

You should try to run one of the AC units on battery for a few hours one night. Once the room is cooled (aft cabin in our case), the compressor duty cycle is 25-35% in my experience. Of course, we don't set it to upper-Siberia temperatures. :)
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Amel is going lithium

Scott SV Tengah
 

Paul,

At the risk of costing you some money on upgrades, I will say that being able to run all the 220v appliances without the genset is one of the biggest advantages of having lithium. Especially the washing machine as it takes such a long time and has such variable draw but a low average draw, so you're unnecessarily adding runtime to the genset unless you batch it with a lot of other uses.

We have the Victron Quattro 24v/5000va/120amp. At 5000watts, more or less, the only 220v appliance that won't run is the Bauer Junior II scuba compressor. And that's only due to the startup current required. I can probably start the scuba compressor with the genset and continue with the inverter. With your mostly Mastervolt setup, I'd suggest sticking to Mastervolt so the batteries can talk to the inverter. But I'm sure Mastervolt has a similar product.

The danger of having that much inverter capacity is that people sometimes think it's really like being at home. The admiral has been known to run the electric boiler, induction stovetop and microwave at the same time on battery/inverter. With respect to the batteries, it's only around half the recommended continuous draw, but it still makes me cringe!

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Haul out preparation - use of a dehumidifier

Matt Salatino
 

Although not available everywhere, we’ve used paraformaldehyde crystals. Learned about them from a Canadian friend, when we were in Trinidad.
In US, brands are Sun-Pac, Mildew-zone. There are others.
Exudes a poison gas. Not only prevents mold, but kills any existing mold, insects, vermin. Bugs and rodents will not come in the boat.
When you return, just open the boat and air it out for a few minutes.
We kept the boat sealed up, storing in Guatemala for a few off-seasons.


~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Aug 6, 2019, at 11:47 AM, Theo s/v Paloma <sailingpaloma1@...> wrote:

I used cat litter with great success when I was leaving my ex-Lagoon 450 in New Zealand off season. I bought several aluminum disposable cooking pans, filled them with cat litter and placed them in each room.

I also opened every drawer and cabinet so that it airs. All hatches and doors were closed and locked. 

Theo
s/v Paloma
Amel 50 #18


Re: Amel is going lithium

Paul Brown
 

Scott, unfortunately my aircon and washing machine and water maker does not work of my inverter otherwise I’d love to, maybe I can upgrade my inverter and wire them in to the 720ah lithium 24v system 

Regards Paul 



On 6 Aug 2019, at 6:21 pm, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Paul,

You should try to run one of the AC units on battery for a few hours one night. Once the room is cooled (aft cabin in our case), the compressor duty cycle is 25-35% in my experience. Of course, we don't set it to upper-Siberia temperatures. :)
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Amel is going lithium

Scott SV Tengah
 

Paul,

You should try to run one of the AC units on battery for a few hours one night. Once the room is cooled (aft cabin in our case), the compressor duty cycle is 25-35% in my experience. Of course, we don't set it to upper-Siberia temperatures. :)
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Amel is going lithium

Scott SV Tengah
 

Hanspeter,

Given the tone of your message, I get the impression that you're quite argumentative. I'm not interested in getting into an internet urination contest, so I'll just provide data and verifiable facts for you.

First, you are close to correct in the water maker calc. Yes, I make water on battery alone, generally with a fully charged battery. I am not on the boat now - damn hurricane season, but the manual tells me the 24v duo 100 motor draws 600watts. Lithium fully charged is 3.6 volts per cell and has a very small voltage drop on such a small load given my 450ah/24 bank. Even the windlass doesn't result in a huge voltage drop. People who have not used lithium are amazed when they see that. So we'll be conservative and use your 25 amps per hour. I average about 80l/hr from my Duo100. That's 11.25 hours to fill up an empty water tank. The Peukert effect is negligible on a lifepo4 battery, another surprise for many so 25*11.25 = 281.25AH.  Given my battery bank is 450AH, the battery bank still has 60% left after making water for almost half a day.

For the solar panels, I'll just attach the latest data output from my Victron solar charge controller. I use LG Neon2 320w panels x 3. 

Fair winds,

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Haul out preparation - use of a dehumidifier

Theo s/v Paloma
 

I used cat litter with great success when I was leaving my ex-Lagoon 450 in New Zealand off season. I bought several aluminum disposable cooking pans, filled them with cat litter and placed them in each room.

I also opened every drawer and cabinet so that it airs. All hatches and doors were closed and locked. 

Theo
s/v Paloma
Amel 50 #18


Re: Amel is going lithium

hanspeter baettig
 

Hi Scott
amazing
so on your electric solar system you produce an average of 8.3 A on 24 v
! even by night!
Tell us what special kind of solar panal you use !
And btw you use the Duo watermaker (60 or 100 l/h ? )only via the batteries?
No engine or genset on ?
The watermaker use about 25 a at 24 volt. Really I‘m interested to know more
about your new tecnical installation
again amazing ?!?
regards Hanspeter
SM 16, Tamango 2
Trinidad by Peake
PS
Dear Bill R.
please comment

------ Original Nachricht ------
Am Montag, 5. Aug, 2019 um 23:04, Scott SV Tengah schrieb:

[Edited Message Follows]

Porter,

I have the Duo and generally make water using the batteries. Something about running the genset, putting all that soot in the water and then sucking it up to make water makes me nervous! I run the water maker as 220v now and then to keep things from corroding from non-use.

How many Ah do you get a day from your wind generator on average? We get about 200-250AH a day from our solar panels and it's nearly enough. I'm at the point now where I worry that we're not using the genset enough and it'll develop problems from non-use.

But as they say, energy is like money. You think you'll be happy with X but then you get to X and you think, but if I only I had Y more, I would have enough. :)
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
www.svtengah.com


Re: Mango Sail sizes

 

Gerry,

I like all Amel models, including the newest 50 and 60. Some models are an evolution of previous Amels, and some models break new ground like some of the first models Henri Amel made. Sometimes when someone explains the difference between one model and the next, the listener can get the unintended impression that one is better than the other. 

You are correct, this forum is certainly not the place for this subject. 

If you want to have a private discussion about the differences, or about anything, contact me at bill"at"yachtschool.us.
--
 
Best,
 
Bill Rouse
Yacht School  
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970


Re: Haul out preparation - use of a dehumidifier

Craig Briggs
 

Marina Seca in San Carlos, Mexico has some great storage tips for all their customers, including being sure seal all open through hulls with something like bronze wool to keep the bugs and vermin out while allowing any water to weep out. So if you run the dehumidified drain tube through the depth sounder hole, be sure to wrap it snugly.
Craig SN68