Date   

Re: Amel 54 Standing Rigging and changes to the Mainmast Lower and Intermediate Shrouds

Porter McRoberts
 

Great info Bill. Thank you. 
I’ll measure and get back to you
Porter
S/V IBIS 54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On May 29, 2019, at 12:24 PM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Amel 54 owners,

Many of you are considering new standing rigging.
 
It has come to my attention that sometime between 2009 and 2010 Amel installed larger size Mainmast Lower and Intermediate Shrouds on Amel 54s. I am not sure at which hull number the change took place, but I know that the smaller shrouds were still being used from the first Amel 54 to hull 117 (2009); and I know that the larger shrouds were installed on hull 162 (2010). Between these two hull numbers, Amel increased the wire size, first on the Lower and later on both the Lower and Intermediate shrouds. 
 
   Amel 54 Mainmast Shrouds latest information (French):
   Top Shroud (Galhaubans) 12mm (no change)
   Intermediate Shroud (Inters) 10mm (changed from 8mm)
   Lower Shroud (Bas Haubans AR) 12mm (changed from 10mm)
 
ACMO, Amel's OEM standing rigging supplier, currently ships the larger Lower and Intermediate shrouds when they receive orders for either these shrouds separately, or a complete standing rigging kit. If you have already installed new rigging and you or your rigger ordered the rigging from ACMO, you are likely fine. If the rigging was not made by ACMO, chances are your new wire is the same size as the wire you had. This may be a problem for you.

Obviously, you will need to inform any rigger you use of this change. This week I have informed several riggers that I regularly contact, 

As with some information I share with the Amel Yacht Owners Group, my information is not necessarily officially from Amel. I do not speak for Amel. This is the case with this Amel 54 rigging wire size change. Because some of you are currently in the process of changing rigging, I am posting what I know today. If I learn more about this subject, I will update you here.
 
Best,
 
Bill Rouse
Yacht School  
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970


Re: autoprop zinc

jlm@jlmertz.fr
 

After 15 years the main bonding in the lowest point in the black water box faille.

Then your Amel bonding system is NOT operating and the Autoprop is attacked ! his colour change !

JL MERTZ on CottonBay


Le 26/02/2019 à 15:06, CW Bill Rouse a écrit :
Yes H6 is correct, but Henri believed that only a plastic propeller hub should be used.

There are several reasons:
1.) The propeller is protected by the Amel Bonding system.
2.) When the AutoProp zinc deteriorates it is the attachment ears that go first. This causes off-balance and you can only use about 80% of the zinc.

AutoProp makes and recommends the zinc because they want the propeller protected and no other boat yard has a bonding system as good as Amel. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019, 6:37 AM Mark Erdos <mcerdos@...> wrote:

Hi Miles,

 

Yes. H6 is the correct one.

 

https://www.boatzincs.com/autoprop_specs_H6.html

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Miles
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 8:20 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] autoprop zinc

 

I have just ordered a new H6 zinc for my autoprop.  Can anyone please let me know if the H6 is the correct size. 

Regards,
Miles
s/y Ladybug, sm216  Le Marin, Martinique


Garanti sans virus. www.avast.com


Re: Amel 54 Standing Rigging and changes to the Mainmast Lower and Intermediate Shrouds

ngtnewington Newington
 

Amelia AML 54-019 2006 has 10mm lowers and 8mm intermediaries.
This is annoying as when I bought the boat in 2017, I had all new standing rigging made.
Food for thought.....
Nick


On 30 May 2019, at 19:08, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Thanks, Dean. As far as I know, that makes Stella #154 the earliest produced Amel 54 with 12mm lowers and 10mm Intermediates.

This is a summary of what I know as of today. I am sure the hull numbers will narrow with more reporting:
  1. #46 (2007) was produced with 10mm lowers and 8mm intermediates. Had rig failure due to lower shroud failure-reported in Amel Yacht Owners Group ​in ​July 2014.
  2. #117 (2009) was produced with 10mm lowers and 8mm intermediates. #128 (2009) was produced with 12mm lowers and 8mm Intermediates.
  3. #128 (2009) was produced with 12mm lowers and 8mm Intermediates.
  4. #154 (2010) was produced with 12mm lowers and 10mm Intermediates.
 
Best,
 
Bill Rouse
Yacht School  
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970


Re: Genoa Fair Leads

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Ken, everyone to their own. I didnt think once every 17 years too arduous to remove two  screws in the stauncheon base.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 31 May 2019 at 09:16 Ken Powers SV Aquarius <ken@...> wrote:

Removing the end-stop and the stanchion each time you need to replace the sliders or the springs is a bit much.  I think that removing the un-needed part of the track was the right decision.  Now, I remove one bolt and I can remove the Genoa car.  

Thanks!

Ken


Re: Genoa Fair Leads

Ken Powers SV Aquarius
 

Removing the end-stop and the stanchion each time you need to replace the sliders or the springs is a bit much.  I think that removing the un-needed part of the track was the right decision.  Now, I remove one bolt and I can remove the Genoa car.  

Thanks!

Ken


Re: Batteries: copper bars will not work - be sure that you have jumpers to wire the pairs in series

David Vogel
 

Thanks Bill, Dan,

OK, Perigee has a copper bridging bar for each pair, running between the threaded studs of each battery in a pair.

But point taken, there may be the need to use cables to bridge the pairs. Probably a good idea in any case to have a couple of cables made up, for short-term re-assigning individual batteries between pairs. Or, be prepared to muscle the batteries into the new configuration – this would be a real pain whilst underway, or in a rocky anchorage.

David
SV Perigee, SM#396, Panama


From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...>
Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Thursday, 30 May 2019 at 2:05 pm
To: Bill Rouse <@billrouse>
Cc: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: copper bars will not work - be sure that you have jumpers to wire the pairs in series

Regarding the thread on using the copper connecting bars versus cables to connect battery pairs: I had only one copper bar, connecting one of the pairs along the front of the box (BeBe has 12 batteries in 6 pairs).

There is another key benefit of cables: at the end of our 3rd season with the Deka batteries we had two batteries, in different pairs, develop internal shorts in the last month. With cables I was able to rematch the batteries into 5 new pairs without having to move all of the batteries around. And so far for the last month the new pairs we're all playing well together. I will be replacing to whole set in the fall.

Regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM 387

On Thu, May 30, 2019, 1:52 PM Bill Rouse <@billrouse wrote:
I do not think the copper bars will work on all of the pairs...I just do not remember. Maybe Dan Carlson (CC'd) can answer this. They might, but you need to be prepared with jumper wires.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970
My Calendar

Yacht School


On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 1:44 PM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
Hi Bill,

.> copper bars will not work

Whoa – this is a trap for the unwary! Why is this?

We have the copper bridging bars, for use with the threaded studs with nut. Naturally enough, if we add battery balancer/s then perhaps some other arrangement may be needed. But I was hoping to minimise any new work items just at the moment, aiming for drop-in bolt-in replacements.

David
Perigee, SM#396, Panama


From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <@billrouse>
Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Thursday, 30 May 2019 at 12:56 pm
To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

Mark,

Yes, I thought so to. These DEKA batteries are nothing special...they are ordinary workhorses that should give you a minimum of 3 years. Be careful because they look like Freedom batteries. They are not. Check the water at appropriate intervals.

I found this Panama dealer by going to DEKA headquarters at Penn Battery. My client bought from them without any problems. I think that they delivered to Shelter Bay. Be sure that you are clear on the connections and that you have jumpers to wire the pairs in series. The copper bars will not work. There is no issue with fit as these are Group 31.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970
My Calendar

Yacht School


Re: Batteries: copper bars will not work - be sure that you have jumpers to wire the pairs in series

Dan Carlson
 

Regarding the thread on using the copper connecting bars versus cables to connect battery pairs:  I had only one copper bar, connecting one of the pairs along the front of the box (BeBe has 12 batteries in 6 pairs).

There is another key benefit of cables: at the end of our 3rd season with the Deka batteries we had two batteries, in different pairs, develop internal shorts in the last month. With cables I was able to rematch the batteries into 5 new pairs without having to move all of the batteries around. And so far for the last month the new pairs we're all playing well together.  I will be replacing to whole set in the fall.

Regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM 387


On Thu, May 30, 2019, 1:52 PM Bill Rouse <brouse@... wrote:
I do not think the copper bars will work on all of the pairs...I just do not remember. Maybe Dan Carlson (CC'd) can answer this. They might, but you need to be prepared with jumper wires.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 1:44 PM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
Hi Bill,

.> copper bars will not work

Whoa – this is a trap for the unwary!  Why is this?

We have the copper bridging bars, for use with the threaded studs with nut. Naturally enough, if we add battery balancer/s then perhaps some other arrangement may be needed.  But I was hoping to minimise any new work items just at the moment, aiming for drop-in bolt-in replacements.

David
Perigee, SM#396, Panama


From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Thursday, 30 May 2019 at 12:56 pm
To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

Mark,

Yes, I thought so to. These DEKA batteries are nothing special...they are ordinary workhorses that should give you a minimum of 3 years. Be careful because they look like Freedom batteries. They are not. Check the water at appropriate intervals.

I found this Panama dealer by going to DEKA headquarters at Penn Battery. My client bought from them without any problems. I think that they delivered to Shelter Bay. Be sure that you are clear on the connections and that you have jumpers to wire the pairs in series. The copper bars will not work. There is no issue with fit as these are Group 31.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970
My Calendar 

Yacht School


On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 12:40 PM Mark Erdos <mcerdos@...> wrote:
Bill,
 
That is a deal!!! We will probably take her up on that before we head out to the Pacific.
 
On another note – I heard, meaning I do not know for a fact – Batteries are very inexpensive in FP due to subsidies provide from the French Government to encourage solar.
 
 
With best regards,
 
Mark
 
Skipper
Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
Currently cruising - Panama
www.creampuff.us
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 1:16 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries
 
David,
 
In Panama, you can contact Melani Beleño <compras.logistica@...> to have DEKA DC31DT lead acid batteries delivered to your boat at a dock
 
In April 2018 Melani wrote one of my clients the following: The price per units is $ 213.59, but We give you a special offer for $192.23 per units,  if you give us the used units could you have a extra discount. The cost of delivery is a $50.00 
 
Phone: (507) 322-3213 / 7 (507) 226-3693
 
 
Best,
 
Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970
My Calendar 

Yacht School
 
 
On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 12:04 PM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
Hi Mark,

Thanks for that.  Yes, it’s all in the mix at the moment.

Lithium is not in the picture, mainly because of the need to change charging and management equipment & regimes.  Also, as you say, the risk of new tech on-board when heading out into the wilds.

I could grab some unknown-brand conventional GRP31 flooded lead acids for about USD200- per unit, available this week here in Panama.  Risk of early-failure, or short-life?  Hmmm – this is a big unknown, but have heard some horror-stories on batteries provided here in Panama.  BTW, standard no-name AGMs are about $450- here, off-the shelf.  But at least we’d be away.

Fireflies are under active consideration. Even if I might get one (or even two) dud batteries, I would still have 10 left – not ideal, of course, but still trucking.  With the ability for deeper discharge (than AGMs or conventional FLAs), having 5 pairs will give me approx. the same per-cycle capacity as 6-pairs of AGMs, with more cycles.

As it stands, I am running the risk-analysis on sailing away with only 5-pairs of my existing (3yo) AGMs operational (with one battery presently installed but not wired-in, held ‘in reserve’), knowing that I am exposed to losing another battery (or two).  Which would still leave me with 4-pairs, before I get the next opportunity replace the bank (in NZ or, under duress, in Tahiti).

It is an interesting dilemma to be facing.

I am open to all inputs and perspectives, just in case I am missing something in the heat of the moment.

Thanks again, and with kind regards also to Cindy please,

David&Leanne
SV Perigee, SM#396, Panama



On 30/5/19, 10:26 am, "Mark Erdos" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io on behalf of mcerdos@...> wrote:

    Hi David,

    The biggest issue I have with specialty batteries is the fact you are getting ready to sail to areas of the world where a single replacement of a like battery would be a big issue. Should you have a failure of one battery, you may find yourself in a situation again where you need to replace the entire bank or eliminate a pair. As for the warranty, will they ship a replacement world-wide? If it were me, I would stick with what I know to be readily available throughout the world. Just my unsolicited 2¢ worth.


    With best regards,

    Mark

    Skipper
    Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
    Currently cruising - Panama
    www.creampuff.us


    -----Original Message-----
    From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Vogel
    Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 10:27 AM
    To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    Thanks Bill, for the double-barrel response,

    Batteries: We are leaning towards replacing the whole lot with FIREFLYs, per Bill KINNEY on Harmonie.  If this does not prove possible within a reasonable time frame, we will disconnect the pair containing the remaining single from the pair that contained the dud battery, and head on out, anticipating replacement in NZ late 2020 if we can keep things going for that long, otherwise Tahiti.

    ONAN: In addition to replacing the Starter and –ve solenoid, I went through all the troubleshooting steps as suggested and per the Service Manual – all apparently OK and with no change – still a failure to crank.  When I finally got the technicians on board, they poked around finding nothing and eventually plugged in an old Control-Board from an ONAN 21kVa Genset.  This, apparently, has enough commonality with the 7MDKAV to enable our unit to crank, start and run (for 3 seconds before the protective mechanisms engaged and shut the unit down; this test repeated 3 times).  Thereby indicating that all our switches, relays etc are OK, but the PCB itself is at fault.  We’re n
    ow trying to source one of these control boards.

    Cheers,

    David&Leanne, PERIGEE, SM#396, Panama
    Bound for French Polynesia


    From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
    Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
    Date: Sunday, 26 May 2019 at 1:30 pm
    To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    I am not sure, and I believe you believe the same. With thousands of miles ahead of you and 3+ year old battery bank, I would consider changing the entire house bank, especially since getting 3-4 years is average for high-use Amels.

    Good on the lead acid start battery.

    When troubleshooting the Onan, I believe the weak point is the cable that runs inside from the negative connection post to the battery side of the Negative start solenoid.  The connection post where cables from the battery switches connect is located on the left side, facing, about half way down. I believe you can easily bypass this undersized cable by connecting a jumper from that connection post to the battery side of the negative start solenoid. You could also test the negative start solenoid by connecting that jumper cable to the starter side of the negative solenoid. 1 jumper cable can be used to test two items. If the problem turns out to be the negative start solenoid, don't leave that jumper on the starter side of the solenoid permanently.

    Best,

    CW Bill Rouse
    Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
    www.YachtSchool.us
    720 Winnie St
    Galveston Island, TX 77550
    +1(832) 380-4970

    On Sun, May 26, 2019, 11:24 AM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
    Greetings all,

    Whilst trouble-shooting an unserviceable ONAN (failure to crank), I checked out the health of the 105Ah 800CCA AGM start battery (good), and house-bank (12x105Ah AGMs).  Start and house batteries were all AGM, same model and date-of-install (Sep'16).

    All tested OK, with the exception of one battery in the house bank, which failed the State-of-Charge test with an Open-Circuit-Voltage (OCV) of 11.00V (as measured, so no surprises here), unstable; and failed State-of-Health of CCA of 35.0A).
    The other battery in the pair containing the failed battery surprisingly tested OK, with SoC 12.72V [92%] and SoH CCA of 642A [91%].

    As an interim step, whilst considering broader options ...
    ... I replaced the good start-battery with a 100Ah/700CCA flooded lead-acid battery; removed the failed AGM battery from the house bank, and replaced it with the 'good' AGM start battery.  The performance of the house battery bank immediately improved, I guess due to the absence of the parasitic load of the failed battery.

    However, concerned about the remaining battery in the new pair contained the failed battery, I have been keeping a close eye on the charge volts, current, and temps of all batteries.  24 hours after the swap-out/in, during the second charge cycle, I noted high charging current to the new battery-pair containing the old-start battery.

    The smart-charger was ordering ~150Amps from the 175A/24V Leece-Neville (normal for the start-of-charge-cycle) - 5 battery-pairs were accepting about 20Amps each (OK and as expected, at ~20% of the '20-hour rate' of 105Ah), but the 'at risk' pair was accepting 40 to 50Amps.  Temps for the 5 'good' pairs were about 1ºC above ambient and stable; but the temp of the questionable pair was ambient +2ºC and rising.  I stopped the charge cycle after 30 minutes; and isolated the questionable pair from the house-bank by removing the bridging strap between the batteries in the pair.  Shortly after the cessation of the interrupted charge cycle, the temperature of the high-current pair peaked at 36.5ºC (ambient other batteries +2.5ºC).

    I am seeking clarification regarding: Is is likely that the remaining battery from the 'old pair' had already suffered irreversible damage (such as an internal short), thereby reducing internal resistance, thereby accepting a higher charge (than the other 'good' battery pairs).

    On the basis of temperature alone , I do not think I have suffered temperature-related damage to the old start battery.  However:

    Question - is it likely that 30-minutes of charge at twice the maximum recommend bulk/absorption current charge-rate has resulted in permanent damage to the previously 'good' start-battery?

    This discussion shared for the learning, and also for the benefit of trouble-shooting by other unfortunates who may in future find themselves in a similar predicament.

    Thanks in anticipation ...

    David
    SM#396/Perigee
    On anchor, Brisas, Pacific side of Panama
      Departure for the Marquesas pending the
        return of the ONAN to service

    Diagnostic tools: Magneti Marelli BT002 Battery Tester; FLIR TG165 Spot Thermal Camera; Voltcraft VC-595OLED Digital Clamp Multimeter.
    Note: the OLED display on the Voltcraft multimeter is impossible to read in direct sunlight, so next time I would choose a model with a different type of display.  Otherwise, this is a great tool, although I do not use the BlueTooth functionality.
























Re: Batteries: copper bars will not work - be sure that you have jumpers to wire the pairs in series

 

I do not think the copper bars will work on all of the pairs...I just do not remember. Maybe Dan Carlson (CC'd) can answer this. They might, but you need to be prepared with jumper wires.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 1:44 PM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
Hi Bill,

.> copper bars will not work

Whoa – this is a trap for the unwary!  Why is this?

We have the copper bridging bars, for use with the threaded studs with nut. Naturally enough, if we add battery balancer/s then perhaps some other arrangement may be needed.  But I was hoping to minimise any new work items just at the moment, aiming for drop-in bolt-in replacements.

David
Perigee, SM#396, Panama


From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Thursday, 30 May 2019 at 12:56 pm
To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

Mark,

Yes, I thought so to. These DEKA batteries are nothing special...they are ordinary workhorses that should give you a minimum of 3 years. Be careful because they look like Freedom batteries. They are not. Check the water at appropriate intervals.

I found this Panama dealer by going to DEKA headquarters at Penn Battery. My client bought from them without any problems. I think that they delivered to Shelter Bay. Be sure that you are clear on the connections and that you have jumpers to wire the pairs in series. The copper bars will not work. There is no issue with fit as these are Group 31.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970
My Calendar 

Yacht School


On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 12:40 PM Mark Erdos <mcerdos@...> wrote:
Bill,
 
That is a deal!!! We will probably take her up on that before we head out to the Pacific.
 
On another note – I heard, meaning I do not know for a fact – Batteries are very inexpensive in FP due to subsidies provide from the French Government to encourage solar.
 
 
With best regards,
 
Mark
 
Skipper
Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
Currently cruising - Panama
www.creampuff.us
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 1:16 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries
 
David,
 
In Panama, you can contact Melani Beleño <compras.logistica@...> to have DEKA DC31DT lead acid batteries delivered to your boat at a dock
 
In April 2018 Melani wrote one of my clients the following: The price per units is $ 213.59, but We give you a special offer for $192.23 per units,  if you give us the used units could you have a extra discount. The cost of delivery is a $50.00 
 
Phone: (507) 322-3213 / 7 (507) 226-3693
 
 
Best,
 
Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970
My Calendar 

Yacht School
 
 
On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 12:04 PM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
Hi Mark,

Thanks for that.  Yes, it’s all in the mix at the moment.

Lithium is not in the picture, mainly because of the need to change charging and management equipment & regimes.  Also, as you say, the risk of new tech on-board when heading out into the wilds.

I could grab some unknown-brand conventional GRP31 flooded lead acids for about USD200- per unit, available this week here in Panama.  Risk of early-failure, or short-life?  Hmmm – this is a big unknown, but have heard some horror-stories on batteries provided here in Panama.  BTW, standard no-name AGMs are about $450- here, off-the shelf.  But at least we’d be away.

Fireflies are under active consideration. Even if I might get one (or even two) dud batteries, I would still have 10 left – not ideal, of course, but still trucking.  With the ability for deeper discharge (than AGMs or conventional FLAs), having 5 pairs will give me approx. the same per-cycle capacity as 6-pairs of AGMs, with more cycles.

As it stands, I am running the risk-analysis on sailing away with only 5-pairs of my existing (3yo) AGMs operational (with one battery presently installed but not wired-in, held ‘in reserve’), knowing that I am exposed to losing another battery (or two).  Which would still leave me with 4-pairs, before I get the next opportunity replace the bank (in NZ or, under duress, in Tahiti).

It is an interesting dilemma to be facing.

I am open to all inputs and perspectives, just in case I am missing something in the heat of the moment.

Thanks again, and with kind regards also to Cindy please,

David&Leanne
SV Perigee, SM#396, Panama



On 30/5/19, 10:26 am, "Mark Erdos" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io on behalf of mcerdos@...> wrote:

    Hi David,

    The biggest issue I have with specialty batteries is the fact you are getting ready to sail to areas of the world where a single replacement of a like battery would be a big issue. Should you have a failure of one battery, you may find yourself in a situation again where you need to replace the entire bank or eliminate a pair. As for the warranty, will they ship a replacement world-wide? If it were me, I would stick with what I know to be readily available throughout the world. Just my unsolicited 2¢ worth.


    With best regards,

    Mark

    Skipper
    Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
    Currently cruising - Panama
    www.creampuff.us


    -----Original Message-----
    From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Vogel
    Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 10:27 AM
    To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    Thanks Bill, for the double-barrel response,

    Batteries: We are leaning towards replacing the whole lot with FIREFLYs, per Bill KINNEY on Harmonie.  If this does not prove possible within a reasonable time frame, we will disconnect the pair containing the remaining single from the pair that contained the dud battery, and head on out, anticipating replacement in NZ late 2020 if we can keep things going for that long, otherwise Tahiti.

    ONAN: In addition to replacing the Starter and –ve solenoid, I went through all the troubleshooting steps as suggested and per the Service Manual – all apparently OK and with no change – still a failure to crank.  When I finally got the technicians on board, they poked around finding nothing and eventually plugged in an old Control-Board from an ONAN 21kVa Genset.  This, apparently, has enough commonality with the 7MDKAV to enable our unit to crank, start and run (for 3 seconds before the protective mechanisms engaged and shut the unit down; this test repeated 3 times).  Thereby indicating that all our switches, relays etc are OK, but the PCB itself is at fault.  We’re n
    ow trying to source one of these control boards.

    Cheers,

    David&Leanne, PERIGEE, SM#396, Panama
    Bound for French Polynesia


    From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
    Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
    Date: Sunday, 26 May 2019 at 1:30 pm
    To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    I am not sure, and I believe you believe the same. With thousands of miles ahead of you and 3+ year old battery bank, I would consider changing the entire house bank, especially since getting 3-4 years is average for high-use Amels.

    Good on the lead acid start battery.

    When troubleshooting the Onan, I believe the weak point is the cable that runs inside from the negative connection post to the battery side of the Negative start solenoid.  The connection post where cables from the battery switches connect is located on the left side, facing, about half way down. I believe you can easily bypass this undersized cable by connecting a jumper from that connection post to the battery side of the negative start solenoid. You could also test the negative start solenoid by connecting that jumper cable to the starter side of the negative solenoid. 1 jumper cable can be used to test two items. If the problem turns out to be the negative start solenoid, don't leave that jumper on the starter side of the solenoid permanently.

    Best,

    CW Bill Rouse
    Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
    www.YachtSchool.us
    720 Winnie St
    Galveston Island, TX 77550
    +1(832) 380-4970

    On Sun, May 26, 2019, 11:24 AM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
    Greetings all,

    Whilst trouble-shooting an unserviceable ONAN (failure to crank), I checked out the health of the 105Ah 800CCA AGM start battery (good), and house-bank (12x105Ah AGMs).  Start and house batteries were all AGM, same model and date-of-install (Sep'16).

    All tested OK, with the exception of one battery in the house bank, which failed the State-of-Charge test with an Open-Circuit-Voltage (OCV) of 11.00V (as measured, so no surprises here), unstable; and failed State-of-Health of CCA of 35.0A).
    The other battery in the pair containing the failed battery surprisingly tested OK, with SoC 12.72V [92%] and SoH CCA of 642A [91%].

    As an interim step, whilst considering broader options ...
    ... I replaced the good start-battery with a 100Ah/700CCA flooded lead-acid battery; removed the failed AGM battery from the house bank, and replaced it with the 'good' AGM start battery.  The performance of the house battery bank immediately improved, I guess due to the absence of the parasitic load of the failed battery.

    However, concerned about the remaining battery in the new pair contained the failed battery, I have been keeping a close eye on the charge volts, current, and temps of all batteries.  24 hours after the swap-out/in, during the second charge cycle, I noted high charging current to the new battery-pair containing the old-start battery.

    The smart-charger was ordering ~150Amps from the 175A/24V Leece-Neville (normal for the start-of-charge-cycle) - 5 battery-pairs were accepting about 20Amps each (OK and as expected, at ~20% of the '20-hour rate' of 105Ah), but the 'at risk' pair was accepting 40 to 50Amps.  Temps for the 5 'good' pairs were about 1ºC above ambient and stable; but the temp of the questionable pair was ambient +2ºC and rising.  I stopped the charge cycle after 30 minutes; and isolated the questionable pair from the house-bank by removing the bridging strap between the batteries in the pair.  Shortly after the cessation of the interrupted charge cycle, the temperature of the high-current pair peaked at 36.5ºC (ambient other batteries +2.5ºC).

    I am seeking clarification regarding: Is is likely that the remaining battery from the 'old pair' had already suffered irreversible damage (such as an internal short), thereby reducing internal resistance, thereby accepting a higher charge (than the other 'good' battery pairs).

    On the basis of temperature alone , I do not think I have suffered temperature-related damage to the old start battery.  However:

    Question - is it likely that 30-minutes of charge at twice the maximum recommend bulk/absorption current charge-rate has resulted in permanent damage to the previously 'good' start-battery?

    This discussion shared for the learning, and also for the benefit of trouble-shooting by other unfortunates who may in future find themselves in a similar predicament.

    Thanks in anticipation ...

    David
    SM#396/Perigee
    On anchor, Brisas, Pacific side of Panama
      Departure for the Marquesas pending the
        return of the ONAN to service

    Diagnostic tools: Magneti Marelli BT002 Battery Tester; FLIR TG165 Spot Thermal Camera; Voltcraft VC-595OLED Digital Clamp Multimeter.
    Note: the OLED display on the Voltcraft multimeter is impossible to read in direct sunlight, so next time I would choose a model with a different type of display.  Otherwise, this is a great tool, although I do not use the BlueTooth functionality.
























Re: Batteries: copper bars will not work - be sure that you have jumpers to wire the pairs in series

David Vogel
 

Hi Bill,

.> copper bars will not work

Whoa – this is a trap for the unwary! Why is this?

We have the copper bridging bars, for use with the threaded studs with nut. Naturally enough, if we add battery balancer/s then perhaps some other arrangement may be needed. But I was hoping to minimise any new work items just at the moment, aiming for drop-in bolt-in replacements.

David
Perigee, SM#396, Panama


From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <@billrouse>
Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Thursday, 30 May 2019 at 12:56 pm
To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

Mark,

Yes, I thought so to. These DEKA batteries are nothing special...they are ordinary workhorses that should give you a minimum of 3 years. Be careful because they look like Freedom batteries. They are not. Check the water at appropriate intervals.

I found this Panama dealer by going to DEKA headquarters at Penn Battery. My client bought from them without any problems. I think that they delivered to Shelter Bay. Be sure that you are clear on the connections and that you have jumpers to wire the pairs in series. The copper bars will not work. There is no issue with fit as these are Group 31.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970
My Calendar 

Yacht School

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 12:40 PM Mark Erdos <mcerdos@...> wrote:
Bill,
 
That is a deal!!! We will probably take her up on that before we head out to the Pacific.
 
On another note – I heard, meaning I do not know for a fact – Batteries are very inexpensive in FP due to subsidies provide from the French Government to encourage solar.
 
 
With best regards,
 
Mark
 
Skipper
Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
Currently cruising - Panama
www.creampuff.us
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 1:16 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries
 
David,
 
In Panama, you can contact Melani Beleño <compras.logistica@...> to have DEKA DC31DT lead acid batteries delivered to your boat at a dock
 
In April 2018 Melani wrote one of my clients the following: The price per units is $ 213.59, but We give you a special offer for $192.23 per units,  if you give us the used units could you have a extra discount. The cost of delivery is a $50.00 
 
Phone: (507) 322-3213 / 7 (507) 226-3693
 
 
Best,
 
Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970
My Calendar 

Yacht School
 
 
On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 12:04 PM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
Hi Mark,

Thanks for that.  Yes, it’s all in the mix at the moment.

Lithium is not in the picture, mainly because of the need to change charging and management equipment & regimes.  Also, as you say, the risk of new tech on-board when heading out into the wilds.

I could grab some unknown-brand conventional GRP31 flooded lead acids for about USD200- per unit, available this week here in Panama.  Risk of early-failure, or short-life?  Hmmm – this is a big unknown, but have heard some horror-stories on batteries provided here in Panama.  BTW, standard no-name AGMs are about $450- here, off-the shelf.  But at least we’d be away.

Fireflies are under active consideration. Even if I might get one (or even two) dud batteries, I would still have 10 left – not ideal, of course, but still trucking.  With the ability for deeper discharge (than AGMs or conventional FLAs), having 5 pairs will give me approx. the same per-cycle capacity as 6-pairs of AGMs, with more cycles.

As it stands, I am running the risk-analysis on sailing away with only 5-pairs of my existing (3yo) AGMs operational (with one battery presently installed but not wired-in, held ‘in reserve’), knowing that I am exposed to losing another battery (or two).  Which would still leave me with 4-pairs, before I get the next opportunity replace the bank (in NZ or, under duress, in Tahiti).

It is an interesting dilemma to be facing.

I am open to all inputs and perspectives, just in case I am missing something in the heat of the moment.

Thanks again, and with kind regards also to Cindy please,

David&Leanne
SV Perigee, SM#396, Panama



On 30/5/19, 10:26 am, "Mark Erdos" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io on behalf of mcerdos@...> wrote:

    Hi David,

    The biggest issue I have with specialty batteries is the fact you are getting ready to sail to areas of the world where a single replacement of a like battery would be a big issue. Should you have a failure of one battery, you may find yourself in a situation again where you need to replace the entire bank or eliminate a pair. As for the warranty, will they ship a replacement world-wide? If it were me, I would stick with what I know to be readily available throughout the world. Just my unsolicited 2¢ worth.


    With best regards,

    Mark

    Skipper
    Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
    Currently cruising - Panama
    www.creampuff.us


    -----Original Message-----
    From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Vogel
    Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 10:27 AM
    To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    Thanks Bill, for the double-barrel response,

    Batteries: We are leaning towards replacing the whole lot with FIREFLYs, per Bill KINNEY on Harmonie.  If this does not prove possible within a reasonable time frame, we will disconnect the pair containing the remaining single from the pair that contained the dud battery, and head on out, anticipating replacement in NZ late 2020 if we can keep things going for that long, otherwise Tahiti.

    ONAN: In addition to replacing the Starter and –ve solenoid, I went through all the troubleshooting steps as suggested and per the Service Manual – all apparently OK and with no change – still a failure to crank.  When I finally got the technicians on board, they poked around finding nothing and eventually plugged in an old Control-Board from an ONAN 21kVa Genset.  This, apparently, has enough commonality with the 7MDKAV to enable our unit to crank, start and run (for 3 seconds before the protective mechanisms engaged and shut the unit down; this test repeated 3 times).  Thereby indicating that all our switches, relays etc are OK, but the PCB itself is at fault.  We’re n
    ow trying to source one of these control boards.

    Cheers,

    David&Leanne, PERIGEE, SM#396, Panama
    Bound for French Polynesia


    From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <@billrouse>
    Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
    Date: Sunday, 26 May 2019 at 1:30 pm
    To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    I am not sure, and I believe you believe the same. With thousands of miles ahead of you and 3+ year old battery bank, I would consider changing the entire house bank, especially since getting 3-4 years is average for high-use Amels.

    Good on the lead acid start battery.

    When troubleshooting the Onan, I believe the weak point is the cable that runs inside from the negative connection post to the battery side of the Negative start solenoid.  The connection post where cables from the battery switches connect is located on the left side, facing, about half way down. I believe you can easily bypass this undersized cable by connecting a jumper from that connection post to the battery side of the negative start solenoid. You could also test the negative start solenoid by connecting that jumper cable to the starter side of the negative solenoid. 1 jumper cable can be used to test two items. If the problem turns out to be the negative start solenoid, don't leave that jumper on the starter side of the solenoid permanently.

    Best,

    CW Bill Rouse
    Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
    www.YachtSchool.us
    720 Winnie St
    Galveston Island, TX 77550
    +1(832) 380-4970

    On Sun, May 26, 2019, 11:24 AM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
    Greetings all,

    Whilst trouble-shooting an unserviceable ONAN (failure to crank), I checked out the health of the 105Ah 800CCA AGM start battery (good), and house-bank (12x105Ah AGMs).  Start and house batteries were all AGM, same model and date-of-install (Sep'16).

    All tested OK, with the exception of one battery in the house bank, which failed the State-of-Charge test with an Open-Circuit-Voltage (OCV) of 11.00V (as measured, so no surprises here), unstable; and failed State-of-Health of CCA of 35.0A).
    The other battery in the pair containing the failed battery surprisingly tested OK, with SoC 12.72V [92%] and SoH CCA of 642A [91%].

    As an interim step, whilst considering broader options ...
    ... I replaced the good start-battery with a 100Ah/700CCA flooded lead-acid battery; removed the failed AGM battery from the house bank, and replaced it with the 'good' AGM start battery.  The performance of the house battery bank immediately improved, I guess due to the absence of the parasitic load of the failed battery.

    However, concerned about the remaining battery in the new pair contained the failed battery, I have been keeping a close eye on the charge volts, current, and temps of all batteries.  24 hours after the swap-out/in, during the second charge cycle, I noted high charging current to the new battery-pair containing the old-start battery.

    The smart-charger was ordering ~150Amps from the 175A/24V Leece-Neville (normal for the start-of-charge-cycle) - 5 battery-pairs were accepting about 20Amps each (OK and as expected, at ~20% of the '20-hour rate' of 105Ah), but the 'at risk' pair was accepting 40 to 50Amps.  Temps for the 5 'good' pairs were about 1ºC above ambient and stable; but the temp of the questionable pair was ambient +2ºC and rising.  I stopped the charge cycle after 30 minutes; and isolated the questionable pair from the house-bank by removing the bridging strap between the batteries in the pair.  Shortly after the cessation of the interrupted charge cycle, the temperature of the high-current pair peaked at 36.5ºC (ambient other batteries +2.5ºC).

    I am seeking clarification regarding: Is is likely that the remaining battery from the 'old pair' had already suffered irreversible damage (such as an internal short), thereby reducing internal resistance, thereby accepting a higher charge (than the other 'good' battery pairs).

    On the basis of temperature alone , I do not think I have suffered temperature-related damage to the old start battery.  However:

    Question - is it likely that 30-minutes of charge at twice the maximum recommend bulk/absorption current charge-rate has resulted in permanent damage to the previously 'good' start-battery?

    This discussion shared for the learning, and also for the benefit of trouble-shooting by other unfortunates who may in future find themselves in a similar predicament.

    Thanks in anticipation ...

    David
    SM#396/Perigee
    On anchor, Brisas, Pacific side of Panama
      Departure for the Marquesas pending the
        return of the ONAN to service

    Diagnostic tools: Magneti Marelli BT002 Battery Tester; FLIR TG165 Spot Thermal Camera; Voltcraft VC-595OLED Digital Clamp Multimeter.
    Note: the OLED display on the Voltcraft multimeter is impossible to read in direct sunlight, so next time I would choose a model with a different type of display.  Otherwise, this is a great tool, although I do not use the BlueTooth functionality.


Re: Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

Miles
 

Hi David & Leanne,

 

I want to say Hi and to put in a comment about your batteries.

 Frist, I agree with Bill that you should replace the lot.  Second, I suggest a different replacement.  If you can get them, and they are widely available in france and Europe, I have been very pleased with Calcium batteries (really calcium, lead, acid).  The Calcium batteries take a much higher (and faster) charging voltage, don’t discharge when left for extended periods of time, and have a longer life and  more cycles.  They are usually sold as sealed, no maintenance batteries.  I recall that mine cost about 50% more than a standard deep-cycle lead acid, but the long life compensated.

If you do go that route, be sure that the charging voltage is as high as specified.  I was warned that if it was less, the batteries would not last.

Other than the battery problem, I trust that you are both having a wonderful time.  

 

Warm regards,

 

Miles  s/y Ladybug, sm216, Le Marin, Martinique

 


Re: Furling motor brushes

 

Dave, 

That sounds like a really good plan.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 1:01 PM <davidcbruce57@...> wrote:
Thanks Danny,   
Going to order a few of the Eurton brushes and plan to modify if or more accurately when they are needed.  
Appreciate the advice.  

Best, Dave
Liesse  SN 006 


On May 29, 2019, at 12:30 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

Hi again Dave, Just a little more on this. Put the file on a flat surface and rub the brush back and forth on it. Much more controllable that way.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 30 May 2019 at 07:22 Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

Hi Dave,

If you need to reduce the size of carbon brushes it is easily and accurately achieved with a file.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 30 May 2019 at 06:31 CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Dave and Shelley,

There are at least 5-6 different Mainmast furling and outhaul motors tat have been used by Amel over the years. Additionally there are 12 volt (like yours) and 24 volt.

I suspect that even SAV at Amel cannot answer your question, except to say, "NO, the brushes are not the same."

I saw the slightly smaller brush used successfully by SM233 Iteration. Normally I would record the source of that brush as one to refer to my clients. I did not because I believe at some point that smaller width brush will cause a problem when it wears and the length becomes shorter. I may be wrong, and I am sure that only multiple experiences over time will prove me right or wrong.

One thing for sure is that you can always buy a larger electric motor brush and cut it to size. This is the safe solution. You may have to take the larger brush to a machine shop to have it cut.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 1:20 PM < davidcbruce57@...> wrote:
Thanks for this sourcing information Kelly and Ryan.  

 Would anyone (Bill?) know if the brushes on all furling motors on a given boat as well as those on different model boats such as SM and SN are the same?    

Thanks, 

Dave and Shelley Bruce
Liesse, SN006 
Gaeta, Italy 

On May 28, 2019, at 3:48 PM, Kelly Ran < naryllek@...> wrote:

Hi all,

We recently needed to change the brushes on our main furling motor (Leroy Somer MBT86M).

I found an 8mm x 10mm x 17mm brush which works for us, so far. Unsure of the material but it looks similar to electrographite.

It seems that other owners have issues sourcing this brush, so here is the info:
Eurton Electric  SPR-A007  
7.50USD, ships from California

We also found that Maude has some slightly different brushes (8mm x 9mm x 16mm) in stock right now for 24 Euros. We did not order these, as the Eurton brushes work.

Fair winds,
kelly + ryan
SM233 Iteration
Boston

 

 


 


 


Re: Furling motor brushes

david bruce
 

Thanks Danny,   
Going to order a few of the Eurton brushes and plan to modify if or more accurately when they are needed.  
Appreciate the advice.  

Best, Dave
Liesse  SN 006 


On May 29, 2019, at 12:30 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

Hi again Dave, Just a little more on this. Put the file on a flat surface and rub the brush back and forth on it. Much more controllable that way.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 30 May 2019 at 07:22 Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

Hi Dave,

If you need to reduce the size of carbon brushes it is easily and accurately achieved with a file.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 30 May 2019 at 06:31 CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Dave and Shelley,

There are at least 5-6 different Mainmast furling and outhaul motors tat have been used by Amel over the years. Additionally there are 12 volt (like yours) and 24 volt.

I suspect that even SAV at Amel cannot answer your question, except to say, "NO, the brushes are not the same."

I saw the slightly smaller brush used successfully by SM233 Iteration. Normally I would record the source of that brush as one to refer to my clients. I did not because I believe at some point that smaller width brush will cause a problem when it wears and the length becomes shorter. I may be wrong, and I am sure that only multiple experiences over time will prove me right or wrong.

One thing for sure is that you can always buy a larger electric motor brush and cut it to size. This is the safe solution. You may have to take the larger brush to a machine shop to have it cut.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 1:20 PM < davidcbruce57@...> wrote:
Thanks for this sourcing information Kelly and Ryan.  

 Would anyone (Bill?) know if the brushes on all furling motors on a given boat as well as those on different model boats such as SM and SN are the same?    

Thanks, 

Dave and Shelley Bruce
Liesse, SN006 
Gaeta, Italy 

On May 28, 2019, at 3:48 PM, Kelly Ran < naryllek@...> wrote:

Hi all,

We recently needed to change the brushes on our main furling motor (Leroy Somer MBT86M).

I found an 8mm x 10mm x 17mm brush which works for us, so far. Unsure of the material but it looks similar to electrographite.

It seems that other owners have issues sourcing this brush, so here is the info:
Eurton Electric  SPR-A007  
7.50USD, ships from California

We also found that Maude has some slightly different brushes (8mm x 9mm x 16mm) in stock right now for 24 Euros. We did not order these, as the Eurton brushes work.

Fair winds,
kelly + ryan
SM233 Iteration
Boston

 

 


 


 


Re: Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

 

Mark,

Yes, I thought so to. These DEKA batteries are nothing special...they are ordinary workhorses that should give you a minimum of 3 years. Be careful because they look like Freedom batteries. They are not. Check the water at appropriate intervals.

I found this Panama dealer by going to DEKA headquarters at Penn Battery. My client bought from them without any problems. I think that they delivered to Shelter Bay. Be sure that you are clear on the connections and that you have jumpers to wire the pairs in series. The copper bars will not work. There is no issue with fit as these are Group 31.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 12:40 PM Mark Erdos <mcerdos@...> wrote:

Bill,

 

That is a deal!!! We will probably take her up on that before we head out to the Pacific.

 

On another note – I heard, meaning I do not know for a fact – Batteries are very inexpensive in FP due to subsidies provide from the French Government to encourage solar.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Panama

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 1:16 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

 

David,

 

In Panama, you can contact Melani Beleño <compras.logistica@...> to have DEKA DC31DT lead acid batteries delivered to your boat at a dock

 

In April 2018 Melani wrote one of my clients the following: The price per units is $ 213.59, but We give you a special offer for $192.23 per units,  if you give us the used units could you have a extra discount. The cost of delivery is a $50.00 

 

Phone: (507) 322-3213 / 7 (507) 226-3693

 

 

Best,

 

Bill Rouse

720 Winnie St.

Galveston, Texas 77550

832-380-4970

 

 

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 12:04 PM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:

Hi Mark,

Thanks for that.  Yes, it’s all in the mix at the moment.

Lithium is not in the picture, mainly because of the need to change charging and management equipment & regimes.  Also, as you say, the risk of new tech on-board when heading out into the wilds.

I could grab some unknown-brand conventional GRP31 flooded lead acids for about USD200- per unit, available this week here in Panama.  Risk of early-failure, or short-life?  Hmmm – this is a big unknown, but have heard some horror-stories on batteries provided here in Panama.  BTW, standard no-name AGMs are about $450- here, off-the shelf.  But at least we’d be away.

Fireflies are under active consideration. Even if I might get one (or even two) dud batteries, I would still have 10 left – not ideal, of course, but still trucking.  With the ability for deeper discharge (than AGMs or conventional FLAs), having 5 pairs will give me approx. the same per-cycle capacity as 6-pairs of AGMs, with more cycles.

As it stands, I am running the risk-analysis on sailing away with only 5-pairs of my existing (3yo) AGMs operational (with one battery presently installed but not wired-in, held ‘in reserve’), knowing that I am exposed to losing another battery (or two).  Which would still leave me with 4-pairs, before I get the next opportunity replace the bank (in NZ or, under duress, in Tahiti).

It is an interesting dilemma to be facing.

I am open to all inputs and perspectives, just in case I am missing something in the heat of the moment.

Thanks again, and with kind regards also to Cindy please,

David&Leanne
SV Perigee, SM#396, Panama



On 30/5/19, 10:26 am, "Mark Erdos" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io on behalf of mcerdos@...> wrote:

    Hi David,

    The biggest issue I have with specialty batteries is the fact you are getting ready to sail to areas of the world where a single replacement of a like battery would be a big issue. Should you have a failure of one battery, you may find yourself in a situation again where you need to replace the entire bank or eliminate a pair. As for the warranty, will they ship a replacement world-wide? If it were me, I would stick with what I know to be readily available throughout the world. Just my unsolicited 2¢ worth.


    With best regards,

    Mark

    Skipper
    Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
    Currently cruising - Panama
    www.creampuff.us


    -----Original Message-----
    From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Vogel
    Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 10:27 AM
    To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    Thanks Bill, for the double-barrel response,

    Batteries: We are leaning towards replacing the whole lot with FIREFLYs, per Bill KINNEY on Harmonie.  If this does not prove possible within a reasonable time frame, we will disconnect the pair containing the remaining single from the pair that contained the dud battery, and head on out, anticipating replacement in NZ late 2020 if we can keep things going for that long, otherwise Tahiti.

    ONAN: In addition to replacing the Starter and –ve solenoid, I went through all the troubleshooting steps as suggested and per the Service Manual – all apparently OK and with no change – still a failure to crank.  When I finally got the technicians on board, they poked around finding nothing and eventually plugged in an old Control-Board from an ONAN 21kVa Genset.  This, apparently, has enough commonality with the 7MDKAV to enable our unit to crank, start and run (for 3 seconds before the protective mechanisms engaged and shut the unit down; this test repeated 3 times).  Thereby indicating that all our switches, relays etc are OK, but the PCB itself is at fault.  We’re n
    ow trying to source one of these control boards.

    Cheers,

    David&Leanne, PERIGEE, SM#396, Panama
    Bound for French Polynesia


    From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
    Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
    Date: Sunday, 26 May 2019 at 1:30 pm
    To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    I am not sure, and I believe you believe the same. With thousands of miles ahead of you and 3+ year old battery bank, I would consider changing the entire house bank, especially since getting 3-4 years is average for high-use Amels.

    Good on the lead acid start battery.

    When troubleshooting the Onan, I believe the weak point is the cable that runs inside from the negative connection post to the battery side of the Negative start solenoid.  The connection post where cables from the battery switches connect is located on the left side, facing, about half way down. I believe you can easily bypass this undersized cable by connecting a jumper from that connection post to the battery side of the negative start solenoid. You could also test the negative start solenoid by connecting that jumper cable to the starter side of the negative solenoid. 1 jumper cable can be used to test two items. If the problem turns out to be the negative start solenoid, don't leave that jumper on the starter side of the solenoid permanently.

    Best,

    CW Bill Rouse
    Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
    www.YachtSchool.us
    720 Winnie St
    Galveston Island, TX 77550
    +1(832) 380-4970

    On Sun, May 26, 2019, 11:24 AM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
    Greetings all,

    Whilst trouble-shooting an unserviceable ONAN (failure to crank), I checked out the health of the 105Ah 800CCA AGM start battery (good), and house-bank (12x105Ah AGMs).  Start and house batteries were all AGM, same model and date-of-install (Sep'16).

    All tested OK, with the exception of one battery in the house bank, which failed the State-of-Charge test with an Open-Circuit-Voltage (OCV) of 11.00V (as measured, so no surprises here), unstable; and failed State-of-Health of CCA of 35.0A).
    The other battery in the pair containing the failed battery surprisingly tested OK, with SoC 12.72V [92%] and SoH CCA of 642A [91%].

    As an interim step, whilst considering broader options ...
    ... I replaced the good start-battery with a 100Ah/700CCA flooded lead-acid battery; removed the failed AGM battery from the house bank, and replaced it with the 'good' AGM start battery.  The performance of the house battery bank immediately improved, I guess due to the absence of the parasitic load of the failed battery.

    However, concerned about the remaining battery in the new pair contained the failed battery, I have been keeping a close eye on the charge volts, current, and temps of all batteries.  24 hours after the swap-out/in, during the second charge cycle, I noted high charging current to the new battery-pair containing the old-start battery.

    The smart-charger was ordering ~150Amps from the 175A/24V Leece-Neville (normal for the start-of-charge-cycle) - 5 battery-pairs were accepting about 20Amps each (OK and as expected, at ~20% of the '20-hour rate' of 105Ah), but the 'at risk' pair was accepting 40 to 50Amps.  Temps for the 5 'good' pairs were about 1ºC above ambient and stable; but the temp of the questionable pair was ambient +2ºC and rising.  I stopped the charge cycle after 30 minutes; and isolated the questionable pair from the house-bank by removing the bridging strap between the batteries in the pair.  Shortly after the cessation of the interrupted charge cycle, the temperature of the high-current pair peaked at 36.5ºC (ambient other batteries +2.5ºC).

    I am seeking clarification regarding: Is is likely that the remaining battery from the 'old pair' had already suffered irreversible damage (such as an internal short), thereby reducing internal resistance, thereby accepting a higher charge (than the other 'good' battery pairs).

    On the basis of temperature alone , I do not think I have suffered temperature-related damage to the old start battery.  However:

    Question - is it likely that 30-minutes of charge at twice the maximum recommend bulk/absorption current charge-rate has resulted in permanent damage to the previously 'good' start-battery?

    This discussion shared for the learning, and also for the benefit of trouble-shooting by other unfortunates who may in future find themselves in a similar predicament.

    Thanks in anticipation ...

    David
    SM#396/Perigee
    On anchor, Brisas, Pacific side of Panama
      Departure for the Marquesas pending the
        return of the ONAN to service

    Diagnostic tools: Magneti Marelli BT002 Battery Tester; FLIR TG165 Spot Thermal Camera; Voltcraft VC-595OLED Digital Clamp Multimeter.
    Note: the OLED display on the Voltcraft multimeter is impossible to read in direct sunlight, so next time I would choose a model with a different type of display.  Otherwise, this is a great tool, although I do not use the BlueTooth functionality.


















Re: Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

Alan Leslie <alanmleslie@...>
 

Hi David
We had a similar battery problem some years ago in Tahiti on our way to Fiji. I disconnected one bank which reduced our capacity but we were able to manage ok with 4 on the boat and extra Onan running.
We use a Chinese balancer I bought through Alibaba, but Vetus make a good one.
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.


Re: Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

Mark Erdos
 

Bill,

 

That is a deal!!! We will probably take her up on that before we head out to the Pacific.

 

On another note – I heard, meaning I do not know for a fact – Batteries are very inexpensive in FP due to subsidies provide from the French Government to encourage solar.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Panama

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 1:16 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

 

David,

 

In Panama, you can contact Melani Beleño <compras.logistica@...> to have DEKA DC31DT lead acid batteries delivered to your boat at a dock

 

In April 2018 Melani wrote one of my clients the following: The price per units is $ 213.59, but We give you a special offer for $192.23 per units,  if you give us the used units could you have a extra discount. The cost of delivery is a $50.00 

 

Phone: (507) 322-3213 / 7 (507) 226-3693

 

 

Best,

 

Bill Rouse

720 Winnie St.

Galveston, Texas 77550

832-380-4970

 

 

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 12:04 PM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:

Hi Mark,

Thanks for that.  Yes, it’s all in the mix at the moment.

Lithium is not in the picture, mainly because of the need to change charging and management equipment & regimes.  Also, as you say, the risk of new tech on-board when heading out into the wilds.

I could grab some unknown-brand conventional GRP31 flooded lead acids for about USD200- per unit, available this week here in Panama.  Risk of early-failure, or short-life?  Hmmm – this is a big unknown, but have heard some horror-stories on batteries provided here in Panama.  BTW, standard no-name AGMs are about $450- here, off-the shelf.  But at least we’d be away.

Fireflies are under active consideration. Even if I might get one (or even two) dud batteries, I would still have 10 left – not ideal, of course, but still trucking.  With the ability for deeper discharge (than AGMs or conventional FLAs), having 5 pairs will give me approx. the same per-cycle capacity as 6-pairs of AGMs, with more cycles.

As it stands, I am running the risk-analysis on sailing away with only 5-pairs of my existing (3yo) AGMs operational (with one battery presently installed but not wired-in, held ‘in reserve’), knowing that I am exposed to losing another battery (or two).  Which would still leave me with 4-pairs, before I get the next opportunity replace the bank (in NZ or, under duress, in Tahiti).

It is an interesting dilemma to be facing.

I am open to all inputs and perspectives, just in case I am missing something in the heat of the moment.

Thanks again, and with kind regards also to Cindy please,

David&Leanne
SV Perigee, SM#396, Panama



On 30/5/19, 10:26 am, "Mark Erdos" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io on behalf of mcerdos@...> wrote:

    Hi David,

    The biggest issue I have with specialty batteries is the fact you are getting ready to sail to areas of the world where a single replacement of a like battery would be a big issue. Should you have a failure of one battery, you may find yourself in a situation again where you need to replace the entire bank or eliminate a pair. As for the warranty, will they ship a replacement world-wide? If it were me, I would stick with what I know to be readily available throughout the world. Just my unsolicited 2¢ worth.


    With best regards,

    Mark

    Skipper
    Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
    Currently cruising - Panama
    www.creampuff.us


    -----Original Message-----
    From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Vogel
    Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 10:27 AM
    To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    Thanks Bill, for the double-barrel response,

    Batteries: We are leaning towards replacing the whole lot with FIREFLYs, per Bill KINNEY on Harmonie.  If this does not prove possible within a reasonable time frame, we will disconnect the pair containing the remaining single from the pair that contained the dud battery, and head on out, anticipating replacement in NZ late 2020 if we can keep things going for that long, otherwise Tahiti.

    ONAN: In addition to replacing the Starter and –ve solenoid, I went through all the troubleshooting steps as suggested and per the Service Manual – all apparently OK and with no change – still a failure to crank.  When I finally got the technicians on board, they poked around finding nothing and eventually plugged in an old Control-Board from an ONAN 21kVa Genset.  This, apparently, has enough commonality with the 7MDKAV to enable our unit to crank, start and run (for 3 seconds before the protective mechanisms engaged and shut the unit down; this test repeated 3 times).  Thereby indicating that all our switches, relays etc are OK, but the PCB itself is at fault.  We’re n
    ow trying to source one of these control boards.

    Cheers,

    David&Leanne, PERIGEE, SM#396, Panama
    Bound for French Polynesia


    From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
    Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
    Date: Sunday, 26 May 2019 at 1:30 pm
    To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    I am not sure, and I believe you believe the same. With thousands of miles ahead of you and 3+ year old battery bank, I would consider changing the entire house bank, especially since getting 3-4 years is average for high-use Amels.

    Good on the lead acid start battery.

    When troubleshooting the Onan, I believe the weak point is the cable that runs inside from the negative connection post to the battery side of the Negative start solenoid.  The connection post where cables from the battery switches connect is located on the left side, facing, about half way down. I believe you can easily bypass this undersized cable by connecting a jumper from that connection post to the battery side of the negative start solenoid. You could also test the negative start solenoid by connecting that jumper cable to the starter side of the negative solenoid. 1 jumper cable can be used to test two items. If the problem turns out to be the negative start solenoid, don't leave that jumper on the starter side of the solenoid permanently.

    Best,

    CW Bill Rouse
    Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
    www.YachtSchool.us
    720 Winnie St
    Galveston Island, TX 77550
    +1(832) 380-4970

    On Sun, May 26, 2019, 11:24 AM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
    Greetings all,

    Whilst trouble-shooting an unserviceable ONAN (failure to crank), I checked out the health of the 105Ah 800CCA AGM start battery (good), and house-bank (12x105Ah AGMs).  Start and house batteries were all AGM, same model and date-of-install (Sep'16).

    All tested OK, with the exception of one battery in the house bank, which failed the State-of-Charge test with an Open-Circuit-Voltage (OCV) of 11.00V (as measured, so no surprises here), unstable; and failed State-of-Health of CCA of 35.0A).
    The other battery in the pair containing the failed battery surprisingly tested OK, with SoC 12.72V [92%] and SoH CCA of 642A [91%].

    As an interim step, whilst considering broader options ...
    ... I replaced the good start-battery with a 100Ah/700CCA flooded lead-acid battery; removed the failed AGM battery from the house bank, and replaced it with the 'good' AGM start battery.  The performance of the house battery bank immediately improved, I guess due to the absence of the parasitic load of the failed battery.

    However, concerned about the remaining battery in the new pair contained the failed battery, I have been keeping a close eye on the charge volts, current, and temps of all batteries.  24 hours after the swap-out/in, during the second charge cycle, I noted high charging current to the new battery-pair containing the old-start battery.

    The smart-charger was ordering ~150Amps from the 175A/24V Leece-Neville (normal for the start-of-charge-cycle) - 5 battery-pairs were accepting about 20Amps each (OK and as expected, at ~20% of the '20-hour rate' of 105Ah), but the 'at risk' pair was accepting 40 to 50Amps.  Temps for the 5 'good' pairs were about 1ºC above ambient and stable; but the temp of the questionable pair was ambient +2ºC and rising.  I stopped the charge cycle after 30 minutes; and isolated the questionable pair from the house-bank by removing the bridging strap between the batteries in the pair.  Shortly after the cessation of the interrupted charge cycle, the temperature of the high-current pair peaked at 36.5ºC (ambient other batteries +2.5ºC).

    I am seeking clarification regarding: Is is likely that the remaining battery from the 'old pair' had already suffered irreversible damage (such as an internal short), thereby reducing internal resistance, thereby accepting a higher charge (than the other 'good' battery pairs).

    On the basis of temperature alone , I do not think I have suffered temperature-related damage to the old start battery.  However:

    Question - is it likely that 30-minutes of charge at twice the maximum recommend bulk/absorption current charge-rate has resulted in permanent damage to the previously 'good' start-battery?

    This discussion shared for the learning, and also for the benefit of trouble-shooting by other unfortunates who may in future find themselves in a similar predicament.

    Thanks in anticipation ...

    David
    SM#396/Perigee
    On anchor, Brisas, Pacific side of Panama
      Departure for the Marquesas pending the
        return of the ONAN to service

    Diagnostic tools: Magneti Marelli BT002 Battery Tester; FLIR TG165 Spot Thermal Camera; Voltcraft VC-595OLED Digital Clamp Multimeter.
    Note: the OLED display on the Voltcraft multimeter is impossible to read in direct sunlight, so next time I would choose a model with a different type of display.  Otherwise, this is a great tool, although I do not use the BlueTooth functionality.


















Re: Furling motor brushes

david bruce
 

Thanks Bill.

Best regards,  Dave. 
Liesse SN006 


On May 29, 2019, at 11:31 AM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Dave and Shelley,

There are at least 5-6 different Mainmast furling and outhaul motors tat have been used by Amel over the years. Additionally there are 12 volt (like yours) and 24 volt.

I suspect that even SAV at Amel cannot answer your question, except to say, "NO, the brushes are not the same."

I saw the slightly smaller brush used successfully by SM233 Iteration. Normally I would record the source of that brush as one to refer to my clients. I did not because I believe at some point that smaller width brush will cause a problem when it wears and the length becomes shorter. I may be wrong, and I am sure that only multiple experiences over time will prove me right or wrong.

One thing for sure is that you can always buy a larger electric motor brush and cut it to size. This is the safe solution. You may have to take the larger brush to a machine shop to have it cut.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 1:20 PM <davidcbruce57@...> wrote:
Thanks for this sourcing information Kelly and Ryan.  

 Would anyone (Bill?) know if the brushes on all furling motors on a given boat as well as those on different model boats such as SM and SN are the same?    

Thanks, 

Dave and Shelley Bruce
Liesse, SN006 
Gaeta, Italy 

On May 28, 2019, at 3:48 PM, Kelly Ran <naryllek@...> wrote:

Hi all,

We recently needed to change the brushes on our main furling motor (Leroy Somer MBT86M).

I found an 8mm x 10mm x 17mm brush which works for us, so far. Unsure of the material but it looks similar to electrographite.

It seems that other owners have issues sourcing this brush, so here is the info:
Eurton Electric SPR-A007  
7.50USD, ships from California

We also found that Maude has some slightly different brushes (8mm x 9mm x 16mm) in stock right now for 24 Euros. We did not order these, as the Eurton brushes work.

Fair winds,
kelly + ryan
SM233 Iteration
Boston


Re: Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

 

David,

In Panama, you can contact Melani Beleño <compras.logistica@...> to have DEKA DC31DT lead acid batteries delivered to your boat at a dock

In April 2018 Melani wrote one of my clients the following: The price per units is $ 213.59, but We give you a special offer for $192.23 per units,  if you give us the used units could you have a extra discount. The cost of delivery is a $50.00 

Phone: (507) 322-3213 / 7 (507) 226-3693




Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 12:04 PM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
Hi Mark,

Thanks for that.  Yes, it’s all in the mix at the moment.

Lithium is not in the picture, mainly because of the need to change charging and management equipment & regimes.  Also, as you say, the risk of new tech on-board when heading out into the wilds.

I could grab some unknown-brand conventional GRP31 flooded lead acids for about USD200- per unit, available this week here in Panama.  Risk of early-failure, or short-life?  Hmmm – this is a big unknown, but have heard some horror-stories on batteries provided here in Panama.  BTW, standard no-name AGMs are about $450- here, off-the shelf.  But at least we’d be away.

Fireflies are under active consideration. Even if I might get one (or even two) dud batteries, I would still have 10 left – not ideal, of course, but still trucking.  With the ability for deeper discharge (than AGMs or conventional FLAs), having 5 pairs will give me approx. the same per-cycle capacity as 6-pairs of AGMs, with more cycles.

As it stands, I am running the risk-analysis on sailing away with only 5-pairs of my existing (3yo) AGMs operational (with one battery presently installed but not wired-in, held ‘in reserve’), knowing that I am exposed to losing another battery (or two).  Which would still leave me with 4-pairs, before I get the next opportunity replace the bank (in NZ or, under duress, in Tahiti).

It is an interesting dilemma to be facing.

I am open to all inputs and perspectives, just in case I am missing something in the heat of the moment.

Thanks again, and with kind regards also to Cindy please,

David&Leanne
SV Perigee, SM#396, Panama



On 30/5/19, 10:26 am, "Mark Erdos" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io on behalf of mcerdos@...> wrote:

    Hi David,

    The biggest issue I have with specialty batteries is the fact you are getting ready to sail to areas of the world where a single replacement of a like battery would be a big issue. Should you have a failure of one battery, you may find yourself in a situation again where you need to replace the entire bank or eliminate a pair. As for the warranty, will they ship a replacement world-wide? If it were me, I would stick with what I know to be readily available throughout the world. Just my unsolicited 2¢ worth.


    With best regards,

    Mark

    Skipper
    Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
    Currently cruising - Panama
    www.creampuff.us


    -----Original Message-----
    From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Vogel
    Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 10:27 AM
    To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    Thanks Bill, for the double-barrel response,

    Batteries: We are leaning towards replacing the whole lot with FIREFLYs, per Bill KINNEY on Harmonie.  If this does not prove possible within a reasonable time frame, we will disconnect the pair containing the remaining single from the pair that contained the dud battery, and head on out, anticipating replacement in NZ late 2020 if we can keep things going for that long, otherwise Tahiti.

    ONAN: In addition to replacing the Starter and –ve solenoid, I went through all the troubleshooting steps as suggested and per the Service Manual – all apparently OK and with no change – still a failure to crank.  When I finally got the technicians on board, they poked around finding nothing and eventually plugged in an old Control-Board from an ONAN 21kVa Genset.  This, apparently, has enough commonality with the 7MDKAV to enable our unit to crank, start and run (for 3 seconds before the protective mechanisms engaged and shut the unit down; this test repeated 3 times).  Thereby indicating that all our switches, relays etc are OK, but the PCB itself is at fault.  We’re n
    ow trying to source one of these control boards.

    Cheers,

    David&Leanne, PERIGEE, SM#396, Panama
    Bound for French Polynesia


    From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
    Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
    Date: Sunday, 26 May 2019 at 1:30 pm
    To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    I am not sure, and I believe you believe the same. With thousands of miles ahead of you and 3+ year old battery bank, I would consider changing the entire house bank, especially since getting 3-4 years is average for high-use Amels.

    Good on the lead acid start battery.

    When troubleshooting the Onan, I believe the weak point is the cable that runs inside from the negative connection post to the battery side of the Negative start solenoid.  The connection post where cables from the battery switches connect is located on the left side, facing, about half way down. I believe you can easily bypass this undersized cable by connecting a jumper from that connection post to the battery side of the negative start solenoid. You could also test the negative start solenoid by connecting that jumper cable to the starter side of the negative solenoid. 1 jumper cable can be used to test two items. If the problem turns out to be the negative start solenoid, don't leave that jumper on the starter side of the solenoid permanently.

    Best,

    CW Bill Rouse
    Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
    www.YachtSchool.us
    720 Winnie St
    Galveston Island, TX 77550
    +1(832) 380-4970

    On Sun, May 26, 2019, 11:24 AM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
    Greetings all,

    Whilst trouble-shooting an unserviceable ONAN (failure to crank), I checked out the health of the 105Ah 800CCA AGM start battery (good), and house-bank (12x105Ah AGMs).  Start and house batteries were all AGM, same model and date-of-install (Sep'16).

    All tested OK, with the exception of one battery in the house bank, which failed the State-of-Charge test with an Open-Circuit-Voltage (OCV) of 11.00V (as measured, so no surprises here), unstable; and failed State-of-Health of CCA of 35.0A).
    The other battery in the pair containing the failed battery surprisingly tested OK, with SoC 12.72V [92%] and SoH CCA of 642A [91%].

    As an interim step, whilst considering broader options ...
    ... I replaced the good start-battery with a 100Ah/700CCA flooded lead-acid battery; removed the failed AGM battery from the house bank, and replaced it with the 'good' AGM start battery.  The performance of the house battery bank immediately improved, I guess due to the absence of the parasitic load of the failed battery.

    However, concerned about the remaining battery in the new pair contained the failed battery, I have been keeping a close eye on the charge volts, current, and temps of all batteries.  24 hours after the swap-out/in, during the second charge cycle, I noted high charging current to the new battery-pair containing the old-start battery.

    The smart-charger was ordering ~150Amps from the 175A/24V Leece-Neville (normal for the start-of-charge-cycle) - 5 battery-pairs were accepting about 20Amps each (OK and as expected, at ~20% of the '20-hour rate' of 105Ah), but the 'at risk' pair was accepting 40 to 50Amps.  Temps for the 5 'good' pairs were about 1ºC above ambient and stable; but the temp of the questionable pair was ambient +2ºC and rising.  I stopped the charge cycle after 30 minutes; and isolated the questionable pair from the house-bank by removing the bridging strap between the batteries in the pair.  Shortly after the cessation of the interrupted charge cycle, the temperature of the high-current pair peaked at 36.5ºC (ambient other batteries +2.5ºC).

    I am seeking clarification regarding: Is is likely that the remaining battery from the 'old pair' had already suffered irreversible damage (such as an internal short), thereby reducing internal resistance, thereby accepting a higher charge (than the other 'good' battery pairs).

    On the basis of temperature alone , I do not think I have suffered temperature-related damage to the old start battery.  However:

    Question - is it likely that 30-minutes of charge at twice the maximum recommend bulk/absorption current charge-rate has resulted in permanent damage to the previously 'good' start-battery?

    This discussion shared for the learning, and also for the benefit of trouble-shooting by other unfortunates who may in future find themselves in a similar predicament.

    Thanks in anticipation ...

    David
    SM#396/Perigee
    On anchor, Brisas, Pacific side of Panama
      Departure for the Marquesas pending the
        return of the ONAN to service

    Diagnostic tools: Magneti Marelli BT002 Battery Tester; FLIR TG165 Spot Thermal Camera; Voltcraft VC-595OLED Digital Clamp Multimeter.
    Note: the OLED display on the Voltcraft multimeter is impossible to read in direct sunlight, so next time I would choose a model with a different type of display.  Otherwise, this is a great tool, although I do not use the BlueTooth functionality.



















Re: Amel 54 Standing Rigging and changes to the Mainmast Lower and Intermediate Shrouds

 

Thanks, Dean. As far as I know, that makes Stella #154 the earliest produced Amel 54 with 12mm lowers and 10mm Intermediates.

This is a summary of what I know as of today. I am sure the hull numbers will narrow with more reporting:
  1. #46 (2007) was produced with 10mm lowers and 8mm intermediates. Had rig failure due to lower shroud failure-reported in Amel Yacht Owners Group ​in ​July 2014.
  2. #117 (2009) was produced with 10mm lowers and 8mm intermediates. #128 (2009) was produced with 12mm lowers and 8mm Intermediates.
  3. #128 (2009) was produced with 12mm lowers and 8mm Intermediates.
  4. #154 (2010) was produced with 12mm lowers and 10mm Intermediates.
 
Best,
 
Bill Rouse
Yacht School  
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970


Re: Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

David Vogel
 

Hi Mark,

Thanks for that. Yes, it’s all in the mix at the moment.

Lithium is not in the picture, mainly because of the need to change charging and management equipment & regimes. Also, as you say, the risk of new tech on-board when heading out into the wilds.

I could grab some unknown-brand conventional GRP31 flooded lead acids for about USD200- per unit, available this week here in Panama. Risk of early-failure, or short-life? Hmmm – this is a big unknown, but have heard some horror-stories on batteries provided here in Panama. BTW, standard no-name AGMs are about $450- here, off-the shelf. But at least we’d be away.

Fireflies are under active consideration. Even if I might get one (or even two) dud batteries, I would still have 10 left – not ideal, of course, but still trucking. With the ability for deeper discharge (than AGMs or conventional FLAs), having 5 pairs will give me approx. the same per-cycle capacity as 6-pairs of AGMs, with more cycles.

As it stands, I am running the risk-analysis on sailing away with only 5-pairs of my existing (3yo) AGMs operational (with one battery presently installed but not wired-in, held ‘in reserve’), knowing that I am exposed to losing another battery (or two). Which would still leave me with 4-pairs, before I get the next opportunity replace the bank (in NZ or, under duress, in Tahiti).

It is an interesting dilemma to be facing.

I am open to all inputs and perspectives, just in case I am missing something in the heat of the moment.

Thanks again, and with kind regards also to Cindy please,

David&Leanne
SV Perigee, SM#396, Panama

On 30/5/19, 10:26 am, "Mark Erdos" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io on behalf of mcerdos@...> wrote:

Hi David,

The biggest issue I have with specialty batteries is the fact you are getting ready to sail to areas of the world where a single replacement of a like battery would be a big issue. Should you have a failure of one battery, you may find yourself in a situation again where you need to replace the entire bank or eliminate a pair. As for the warranty, will they ship a replacement world-wide? If it were me, I would stick with what I know to be readily available throughout the world. Just my unsolicited 2¢ worth.


With best regards,

Mark

Skipper
Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
Currently cruising - Panama
www.creampuff.us


-----Original Message-----
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Vogel
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 10:27 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

Thanks Bill, for the double-barrel response,

Batteries: We are leaning towards replacing the whole lot with FIREFLYs, per Bill KINNEY on Harmonie. If this does not prove possible within a reasonable time frame, we will disconnect the pair containing the remaining single from the pair that contained the dud battery, and head on out, anticipating replacement in NZ late 2020 if we can keep things going for that long, otherwise Tahiti.

ONAN: In addition to replacing the Starter and –ve solenoid, I went through all the troubleshooting steps as suggested and per the Service Manual – all apparently OK and with no change – still a failure to crank. When I finally got the technicians on board, they poked around finding nothing and eventually plugged in an old Control-Board from an ONAN 21kVa Genset. This, apparently, has enough commonality with the 7MDKAV to enable our unit to crank, start and run (for 3 seconds before the protective mechanisms engaged and shut the unit down; this test repeated 3 times). Thereby indicating that all our switches, relays etc are OK, but the PCB itself is at fault. We’re n
ow trying to source one of these control boards.

Cheers,

David&Leanne, PERIGEE, SM#396, Panama
Bound for French Polynesia


From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <@billrouse>
Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Sunday, 26 May 2019 at 1:30 pm
To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

I am not sure, and I believe you believe the same. With thousands of miles ahead of you and 3+ year old battery bank, I would consider changing the entire house bank, especially since getting 3-4 years is average for high-use Amels.

Good on the lead acid start battery.

When troubleshooting the Onan, I believe the weak point is the cable that runs inside from the negative connection post to the battery side of the Negative start solenoid. The connection post where cables from the battery switches connect is located on the left side, facing, about half way down. I believe you can easily bypass this undersized cable by connecting a jumper from that connection post to the battery side of the negative start solenoid. You could also test the negative start solenoid by connecting that jumper cable to the starter side of the negative solenoid. 1 jumper cable can be used to test two items. If the problem turns out to be the negative start solenoid, don't leave that jumper on the starter side of the solenoid permanently.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
www.YachtSchool.us
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Sun, May 26, 2019, 11:24 AM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
Greetings all,

Whilst trouble-shooting an unserviceable ONAN (failure to crank), I checked out the health of the 105Ah 800CCA AGM start battery (good), and house-bank (12x105Ah AGMs). Start and house batteries were all AGM, same model and date-of-install (Sep'16).

All tested OK, with the exception of one battery in the house bank, which failed the State-of-Charge test with an Open-Circuit-Voltage (OCV) of 11.00V (as measured, so no surprises here), unstable; and failed State-of-Health of CCA of 35.0A).
The other battery in the pair containing the failed battery surprisingly tested OK, with SoC 12.72V [92%] and SoH CCA of 642A [91%].

As an interim step, whilst considering broader options ...
... I replaced the good start-battery with a 100Ah/700CCA flooded lead-acid battery; removed the failed AGM battery from the house bank, and replaced it with the 'good' AGM start battery. The performance of the house battery bank immediately improved, I guess due to the absence of the parasitic load of the failed battery.

However, concerned about the remaining battery in the new pair contained the failed battery, I have been keeping a close eye on the charge volts, current, and temps of all batteries. 24 hours after the swap-out/in, during the second charge cycle, I noted high charging current to the new battery-pair containing the old-start battery.

The smart-charger was ordering ~150Amps from the 175A/24V Leece-Neville (normal for the start-of-charge-cycle) - 5 battery-pairs were accepting about 20Amps each (OK and as expected, at ~20% of the '20-hour rate' of 105Ah), but the 'at risk' pair was accepting 40 to 50Amps. Temps for the 5 'good' pairs were about 1ºC above ambient and stable; but the temp of the questionable pair was ambient +2ºC and rising. I stopped the charge cycle after 30 minutes; and isolated the questionable pair from the house-bank by removing the bridging strap between the batteries in the pair. Shortly after the cessation of the interrupted charge cycle, the temperature of the high-current pair peaked at 36.5ºC (ambient other batteries +2.5ºC).

I am seeking clarification regarding: Is is likely that the remaining battery from the 'old pair' had already suffered irreversible damage (such as an internal short), thereby reducing internal resistance, thereby accepting a higher charge (than the other 'good' battery pairs).

On the basis of temperature alone , I do not think I have suffered temperature-related damage to the old start battery. However:

Question - is it likely that 30-minutes of charge at twice the maximum recommend bulk/absorption current charge-rate has resulted in permanent damage to the previously 'good' start-battery?

This discussion shared for the learning, and also for the benefit of trouble-shooting by other unfortunates who may in future find themselves in a similar predicament.

Thanks in anticipation ...

David
SM#396/Perigee
On anchor, Brisas, Pacific side of Panama
Departure for the Marquesas pending the
return of the ONAN to service

Diagnostic tools: Magneti Marelli BT002 Battery Tester; FLIR TG165 Spot Thermal Camera; Voltcraft VC-595OLED Digital Clamp Multimeter.
Note: the OLED display on the Voltcraft multimeter is impossible to read in direct sunlight, so next time I would choose a model with a different type of display. Otherwise, this is a great tool, although I do not use the BlueTooth functionality.


Re: Amel 54 Standing Rigging and changes to the Mainmast Lower and Intermediate Shrouds

Dean Gillies
 

Bill,
For your records I can confirm that A54-154 has the reinforced mast, and the up-sized rigging.
best regards,
Dean