Date   

Re: Furling motor brushes

david bruce
 

Thanks Danny,   
Going to order a few of the Eurton brushes and plan to modify if or more accurately when they are needed.  
Appreciate the advice.  

Best, Dave
Liesse  SN 006 


On May 29, 2019, at 12:30 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

Hi again Dave, Just a little more on this. Put the file on a flat surface and rub the brush back and forth on it. Much more controllable that way.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 30 May 2019 at 07:22 Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

Hi Dave,

If you need to reduce the size of carbon brushes it is easily and accurately achieved with a file.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 30 May 2019 at 06:31 CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Dave and Shelley,

There are at least 5-6 different Mainmast furling and outhaul motors tat have been used by Amel over the years. Additionally there are 12 volt (like yours) and 24 volt.

I suspect that even SAV at Amel cannot answer your question, except to say, "NO, the brushes are not the same."

I saw the slightly smaller brush used successfully by SM233 Iteration. Normally I would record the source of that brush as one to refer to my clients. I did not because I believe at some point that smaller width brush will cause a problem when it wears and the length becomes shorter. I may be wrong, and I am sure that only multiple experiences over time will prove me right or wrong.

One thing for sure is that you can always buy a larger electric motor brush and cut it to size. This is the safe solution. You may have to take the larger brush to a machine shop to have it cut.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 1:20 PM < davidcbruce57@...> wrote:
Thanks for this sourcing information Kelly and Ryan.  

 Would anyone (Bill?) know if the brushes on all furling motors on a given boat as well as those on different model boats such as SM and SN are the same?    

Thanks, 

Dave and Shelley Bruce
Liesse, SN006 
Gaeta, Italy 

On May 28, 2019, at 3:48 PM, Kelly Ran < naryllek@...> wrote:

Hi all,

We recently needed to change the brushes on our main furling motor (Leroy Somer MBT86M).

I found an 8mm x 10mm x 17mm brush which works for us, so far. Unsure of the material but it looks similar to electrographite.

It seems that other owners have issues sourcing this brush, so here is the info:
Eurton Electric  SPR-A007  
7.50USD, ships from California

We also found that Maude has some slightly different brushes (8mm x 9mm x 16mm) in stock right now for 24 Euros. We did not order these, as the Eurton brushes work.

Fair winds,
kelly + ryan
SM233 Iteration
Boston

 

 


 


 


Re: Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

 

Mark,

Yes, I thought so to. These DEKA batteries are nothing special...they are ordinary workhorses that should give you a minimum of 3 years. Be careful because they look like Freedom batteries. They are not. Check the water at appropriate intervals.

I found this Panama dealer by going to DEKA headquarters at Penn Battery. My client bought from them without any problems. I think that they delivered to Shelter Bay. Be sure that you are clear on the connections and that you have jumpers to wire the pairs in series. The copper bars will not work. There is no issue with fit as these are Group 31.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 12:40 PM Mark Erdos <mcerdos@...> wrote:

Bill,

 

That is a deal!!! We will probably take her up on that before we head out to the Pacific.

 

On another note – I heard, meaning I do not know for a fact – Batteries are very inexpensive in FP due to subsidies provide from the French Government to encourage solar.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Panama

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 1:16 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

 

David,

 

In Panama, you can contact Melani Beleño <compras.logistica@...> to have DEKA DC31DT lead acid batteries delivered to your boat at a dock

 

In April 2018 Melani wrote one of my clients the following: The price per units is $ 213.59, but We give you a special offer for $192.23 per units,  if you give us the used units could you have a extra discount. The cost of delivery is a $50.00 

 

Phone: (507) 322-3213 / 7 (507) 226-3693

 

 

Best,

 

Bill Rouse

720 Winnie St.

Galveston, Texas 77550

832-380-4970

 

 

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 12:04 PM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:

Hi Mark,

Thanks for that.  Yes, it’s all in the mix at the moment.

Lithium is not in the picture, mainly because of the need to change charging and management equipment & regimes.  Also, as you say, the risk of new tech on-board when heading out into the wilds.

I could grab some unknown-brand conventional GRP31 flooded lead acids for about USD200- per unit, available this week here in Panama.  Risk of early-failure, or short-life?  Hmmm – this is a big unknown, but have heard some horror-stories on batteries provided here in Panama.  BTW, standard no-name AGMs are about $450- here, off-the shelf.  But at least we’d be away.

Fireflies are under active consideration. Even if I might get one (or even two) dud batteries, I would still have 10 left – not ideal, of course, but still trucking.  With the ability for deeper discharge (than AGMs or conventional FLAs), having 5 pairs will give me approx. the same per-cycle capacity as 6-pairs of AGMs, with more cycles.

As it stands, I am running the risk-analysis on sailing away with only 5-pairs of my existing (3yo) AGMs operational (with one battery presently installed but not wired-in, held ‘in reserve’), knowing that I am exposed to losing another battery (or two).  Which would still leave me with 4-pairs, before I get the next opportunity replace the bank (in NZ or, under duress, in Tahiti).

It is an interesting dilemma to be facing.

I am open to all inputs and perspectives, just in case I am missing something in the heat of the moment.

Thanks again, and with kind regards also to Cindy please,

David&Leanne
SV Perigee, SM#396, Panama



On 30/5/19, 10:26 am, "Mark Erdos" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io on behalf of mcerdos@...> wrote:

    Hi David,

    The biggest issue I have with specialty batteries is the fact you are getting ready to sail to areas of the world where a single replacement of a like battery would be a big issue. Should you have a failure of one battery, you may find yourself in a situation again where you need to replace the entire bank or eliminate a pair. As for the warranty, will they ship a replacement world-wide? If it were me, I would stick with what I know to be readily available throughout the world. Just my unsolicited 2¢ worth.


    With best regards,

    Mark

    Skipper
    Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
    Currently cruising - Panama
    www.creampuff.us


    -----Original Message-----
    From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Vogel
    Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 10:27 AM
    To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    Thanks Bill, for the double-barrel response,

    Batteries: We are leaning towards replacing the whole lot with FIREFLYs, per Bill KINNEY on Harmonie.  If this does not prove possible within a reasonable time frame, we will disconnect the pair containing the remaining single from the pair that contained the dud battery, and head on out, anticipating replacement in NZ late 2020 if we can keep things going for that long, otherwise Tahiti.

    ONAN: In addition to replacing the Starter and –ve solenoid, I went through all the troubleshooting steps as suggested and per the Service Manual – all apparently OK and with no change – still a failure to crank.  When I finally got the technicians on board, they poked around finding nothing and eventually plugged in an old Control-Board from an ONAN 21kVa Genset.  This, apparently, has enough commonality with the 7MDKAV to enable our unit to crank, start and run (for 3 seconds before the protective mechanisms engaged and shut the unit down; this test repeated 3 times).  Thereby indicating that all our switches, relays etc are OK, but the PCB itself is at fault.  We’re n
    ow trying to source one of these control boards.

    Cheers,

    David&Leanne, PERIGEE, SM#396, Panama
    Bound for French Polynesia


    From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
    Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
    Date: Sunday, 26 May 2019 at 1:30 pm
    To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    I am not sure, and I believe you believe the same. With thousands of miles ahead of you and 3+ year old battery bank, I would consider changing the entire house bank, especially since getting 3-4 years is average for high-use Amels.

    Good on the lead acid start battery.

    When troubleshooting the Onan, I believe the weak point is the cable that runs inside from the negative connection post to the battery side of the Negative start solenoid.  The connection post where cables from the battery switches connect is located on the left side, facing, about half way down. I believe you can easily bypass this undersized cable by connecting a jumper from that connection post to the battery side of the negative start solenoid. You could also test the negative start solenoid by connecting that jumper cable to the starter side of the negative solenoid. 1 jumper cable can be used to test two items. If the problem turns out to be the negative start solenoid, don't leave that jumper on the starter side of the solenoid permanently.

    Best,

    CW Bill Rouse
    Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
    www.YachtSchool.us
    720 Winnie St
    Galveston Island, TX 77550
    +1(832) 380-4970

    On Sun, May 26, 2019, 11:24 AM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
    Greetings all,

    Whilst trouble-shooting an unserviceable ONAN (failure to crank), I checked out the health of the 105Ah 800CCA AGM start battery (good), and house-bank (12x105Ah AGMs).  Start and house batteries were all AGM, same model and date-of-install (Sep'16).

    All tested OK, with the exception of one battery in the house bank, which failed the State-of-Charge test with an Open-Circuit-Voltage (OCV) of 11.00V (as measured, so no surprises here), unstable; and failed State-of-Health of CCA of 35.0A).
    The other battery in the pair containing the failed battery surprisingly tested OK, with SoC 12.72V [92%] and SoH CCA of 642A [91%].

    As an interim step, whilst considering broader options ...
    ... I replaced the good start-battery with a 100Ah/700CCA flooded lead-acid battery; removed the failed AGM battery from the house bank, and replaced it with the 'good' AGM start battery.  The performance of the house battery bank immediately improved, I guess due to the absence of the parasitic load of the failed battery.

    However, concerned about the remaining battery in the new pair contained the failed battery, I have been keeping a close eye on the charge volts, current, and temps of all batteries.  24 hours after the swap-out/in, during the second charge cycle, I noted high charging current to the new battery-pair containing the old-start battery.

    The smart-charger was ordering ~150Amps from the 175A/24V Leece-Neville (normal for the start-of-charge-cycle) - 5 battery-pairs were accepting about 20Amps each (OK and as expected, at ~20% of the '20-hour rate' of 105Ah), but the 'at risk' pair was accepting 40 to 50Amps.  Temps for the 5 'good' pairs were about 1ºC above ambient and stable; but the temp of the questionable pair was ambient +2ºC and rising.  I stopped the charge cycle after 30 minutes; and isolated the questionable pair from the house-bank by removing the bridging strap between the batteries in the pair.  Shortly after the cessation of the interrupted charge cycle, the temperature of the high-current pair peaked at 36.5ºC (ambient other batteries +2.5ºC).

    I am seeking clarification regarding: Is is likely that the remaining battery from the 'old pair' had already suffered irreversible damage (such as an internal short), thereby reducing internal resistance, thereby accepting a higher charge (than the other 'good' battery pairs).

    On the basis of temperature alone , I do not think I have suffered temperature-related damage to the old start battery.  However:

    Question - is it likely that 30-minutes of charge at twice the maximum recommend bulk/absorption current charge-rate has resulted in permanent damage to the previously 'good' start-battery?

    This discussion shared for the learning, and also for the benefit of trouble-shooting by other unfortunates who may in future find themselves in a similar predicament.

    Thanks in anticipation ...

    David
    SM#396/Perigee
    On anchor, Brisas, Pacific side of Panama
      Departure for the Marquesas pending the
        return of the ONAN to service

    Diagnostic tools: Magneti Marelli BT002 Battery Tester; FLIR TG165 Spot Thermal Camera; Voltcraft VC-595OLED Digital Clamp Multimeter.
    Note: the OLED display on the Voltcraft multimeter is impossible to read in direct sunlight, so next time I would choose a model with a different type of display.  Otherwise, this is a great tool, although I do not use the BlueTooth functionality.


















Re: Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

Alan Leslie <alanmleslie@...>
 

Hi David
We had a similar battery problem some years ago in Tahiti on our way to Fiji. I disconnected one bank which reduced our capacity but we were able to manage ok with 4 on the boat and extra Onan running.
We use a Chinese balancer I bought through Alibaba, but Vetus make a good one.
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.


Re: Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

Mark Erdos
 

Bill,

 

That is a deal!!! We will probably take her up on that before we head out to the Pacific.

 

On another note – I heard, meaning I do not know for a fact – Batteries are very inexpensive in FP due to subsidies provide from the French Government to encourage solar.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Panama

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 1:16 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

 

David,

 

In Panama, you can contact Melani Beleño <compras.logistica@...> to have DEKA DC31DT lead acid batteries delivered to your boat at a dock

 

In April 2018 Melani wrote one of my clients the following: The price per units is $ 213.59, but We give you a special offer for $192.23 per units,  if you give us the used units could you have a extra discount. The cost of delivery is a $50.00 

 

Phone: (507) 322-3213 / 7 (507) 226-3693

 

 

Best,

 

Bill Rouse

720 Winnie St.

Galveston, Texas 77550

832-380-4970

 

 

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 12:04 PM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:

Hi Mark,

Thanks for that.  Yes, it’s all in the mix at the moment.

Lithium is not in the picture, mainly because of the need to change charging and management equipment & regimes.  Also, as you say, the risk of new tech on-board when heading out into the wilds.

I could grab some unknown-brand conventional GRP31 flooded lead acids for about USD200- per unit, available this week here in Panama.  Risk of early-failure, or short-life?  Hmmm – this is a big unknown, but have heard some horror-stories on batteries provided here in Panama.  BTW, standard no-name AGMs are about $450- here, off-the shelf.  But at least we’d be away.

Fireflies are under active consideration. Even if I might get one (or even two) dud batteries, I would still have 10 left – not ideal, of course, but still trucking.  With the ability for deeper discharge (than AGMs or conventional FLAs), having 5 pairs will give me approx. the same per-cycle capacity as 6-pairs of AGMs, with more cycles.

As it stands, I am running the risk-analysis on sailing away with only 5-pairs of my existing (3yo) AGMs operational (with one battery presently installed but not wired-in, held ‘in reserve’), knowing that I am exposed to losing another battery (or two).  Which would still leave me with 4-pairs, before I get the next opportunity replace the bank (in NZ or, under duress, in Tahiti).

It is an interesting dilemma to be facing.

I am open to all inputs and perspectives, just in case I am missing something in the heat of the moment.

Thanks again, and with kind regards also to Cindy please,

David&Leanne
SV Perigee, SM#396, Panama



On 30/5/19, 10:26 am, "Mark Erdos" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io on behalf of mcerdos@...> wrote:

    Hi David,

    The biggest issue I have with specialty batteries is the fact you are getting ready to sail to areas of the world where a single replacement of a like battery would be a big issue. Should you have a failure of one battery, you may find yourself in a situation again where you need to replace the entire bank or eliminate a pair. As for the warranty, will they ship a replacement world-wide? If it were me, I would stick with what I know to be readily available throughout the world. Just my unsolicited 2¢ worth.


    With best regards,

    Mark

    Skipper
    Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
    Currently cruising - Panama
    www.creampuff.us


    -----Original Message-----
    From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Vogel
    Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 10:27 AM
    To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    Thanks Bill, for the double-barrel response,

    Batteries: We are leaning towards replacing the whole lot with FIREFLYs, per Bill KINNEY on Harmonie.  If this does not prove possible within a reasonable time frame, we will disconnect the pair containing the remaining single from the pair that contained the dud battery, and head on out, anticipating replacement in NZ late 2020 if we can keep things going for that long, otherwise Tahiti.

    ONAN: In addition to replacing the Starter and –ve solenoid, I went through all the troubleshooting steps as suggested and per the Service Manual – all apparently OK and with no change – still a failure to crank.  When I finally got the technicians on board, they poked around finding nothing and eventually plugged in an old Control-Board from an ONAN 21kVa Genset.  This, apparently, has enough commonality with the 7MDKAV to enable our unit to crank, start and run (for 3 seconds before the protective mechanisms engaged and shut the unit down; this test repeated 3 times).  Thereby indicating that all our switches, relays etc are OK, but the PCB itself is at fault.  We’re n
    ow trying to source one of these control boards.

    Cheers,

    David&Leanne, PERIGEE, SM#396, Panama
    Bound for French Polynesia


    From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
    Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
    Date: Sunday, 26 May 2019 at 1:30 pm
    To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    I am not sure, and I believe you believe the same. With thousands of miles ahead of you and 3+ year old battery bank, I would consider changing the entire house bank, especially since getting 3-4 years is average for high-use Amels.

    Good on the lead acid start battery.

    When troubleshooting the Onan, I believe the weak point is the cable that runs inside from the negative connection post to the battery side of the Negative start solenoid.  The connection post where cables from the battery switches connect is located on the left side, facing, about half way down. I believe you can easily bypass this undersized cable by connecting a jumper from that connection post to the battery side of the negative start solenoid. You could also test the negative start solenoid by connecting that jumper cable to the starter side of the negative solenoid. 1 jumper cable can be used to test two items. If the problem turns out to be the negative start solenoid, don't leave that jumper on the starter side of the solenoid permanently.

    Best,

    CW Bill Rouse
    Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
    www.YachtSchool.us
    720 Winnie St
    Galveston Island, TX 77550
    +1(832) 380-4970

    On Sun, May 26, 2019, 11:24 AM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
    Greetings all,

    Whilst trouble-shooting an unserviceable ONAN (failure to crank), I checked out the health of the 105Ah 800CCA AGM start battery (good), and house-bank (12x105Ah AGMs).  Start and house batteries were all AGM, same model and date-of-install (Sep'16).

    All tested OK, with the exception of one battery in the house bank, which failed the State-of-Charge test with an Open-Circuit-Voltage (OCV) of 11.00V (as measured, so no surprises here), unstable; and failed State-of-Health of CCA of 35.0A).
    The other battery in the pair containing the failed battery surprisingly tested OK, with SoC 12.72V [92%] and SoH CCA of 642A [91%].

    As an interim step, whilst considering broader options ...
    ... I replaced the good start-battery with a 100Ah/700CCA flooded lead-acid battery; removed the failed AGM battery from the house bank, and replaced it with the 'good' AGM start battery.  The performance of the house battery bank immediately improved, I guess due to the absence of the parasitic load of the failed battery.

    However, concerned about the remaining battery in the new pair contained the failed battery, I have been keeping a close eye on the charge volts, current, and temps of all batteries.  24 hours after the swap-out/in, during the second charge cycle, I noted high charging current to the new battery-pair containing the old-start battery.

    The smart-charger was ordering ~150Amps from the 175A/24V Leece-Neville (normal for the start-of-charge-cycle) - 5 battery-pairs were accepting about 20Amps each (OK and as expected, at ~20% of the '20-hour rate' of 105Ah), but the 'at risk' pair was accepting 40 to 50Amps.  Temps for the 5 'good' pairs were about 1ºC above ambient and stable; but the temp of the questionable pair was ambient +2ºC and rising.  I stopped the charge cycle after 30 minutes; and isolated the questionable pair from the house-bank by removing the bridging strap between the batteries in the pair.  Shortly after the cessation of the interrupted charge cycle, the temperature of the high-current pair peaked at 36.5ºC (ambient other batteries +2.5ºC).

    I am seeking clarification regarding: Is is likely that the remaining battery from the 'old pair' had already suffered irreversible damage (such as an internal short), thereby reducing internal resistance, thereby accepting a higher charge (than the other 'good' battery pairs).

    On the basis of temperature alone , I do not think I have suffered temperature-related damage to the old start battery.  However:

    Question - is it likely that 30-minutes of charge at twice the maximum recommend bulk/absorption current charge-rate has resulted in permanent damage to the previously 'good' start-battery?

    This discussion shared for the learning, and also for the benefit of trouble-shooting by other unfortunates who may in future find themselves in a similar predicament.

    Thanks in anticipation ...

    David
    SM#396/Perigee
    On anchor, Brisas, Pacific side of Panama
      Departure for the Marquesas pending the
        return of the ONAN to service

    Diagnostic tools: Magneti Marelli BT002 Battery Tester; FLIR TG165 Spot Thermal Camera; Voltcraft VC-595OLED Digital Clamp Multimeter.
    Note: the OLED display on the Voltcraft multimeter is impossible to read in direct sunlight, so next time I would choose a model with a different type of display.  Otherwise, this is a great tool, although I do not use the BlueTooth functionality.


















Re: Furling motor brushes

david bruce
 

Thanks Bill.

Best regards,  Dave. 
Liesse SN006 


On May 29, 2019, at 11:31 AM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Dave and Shelley,

There are at least 5-6 different Mainmast furling and outhaul motors tat have been used by Amel over the years. Additionally there are 12 volt (like yours) and 24 volt.

I suspect that even SAV at Amel cannot answer your question, except to say, "NO, the brushes are not the same."

I saw the slightly smaller brush used successfully by SM233 Iteration. Normally I would record the source of that brush as one to refer to my clients. I did not because I believe at some point that smaller width brush will cause a problem when it wears and the length becomes shorter. I may be wrong, and I am sure that only multiple experiences over time will prove me right or wrong.

One thing for sure is that you can always buy a larger electric motor brush and cut it to size. This is the safe solution. You may have to take the larger brush to a machine shop to have it cut.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 1:20 PM <davidcbruce57@...> wrote:
Thanks for this sourcing information Kelly and Ryan.  

 Would anyone (Bill?) know if the brushes on all furling motors on a given boat as well as those on different model boats such as SM and SN are the same?    

Thanks, 

Dave and Shelley Bruce
Liesse, SN006 
Gaeta, Italy 

On May 28, 2019, at 3:48 PM, Kelly Ran <naryllek@...> wrote:

Hi all,

We recently needed to change the brushes on our main furling motor (Leroy Somer MBT86M).

I found an 8mm x 10mm x 17mm brush which works for us, so far. Unsure of the material but it looks similar to electrographite.

It seems that other owners have issues sourcing this brush, so here is the info:
Eurton Electric SPR-A007  
7.50USD, ships from California

We also found that Maude has some slightly different brushes (8mm x 9mm x 16mm) in stock right now for 24 Euros. We did not order these, as the Eurton brushes work.

Fair winds,
kelly + ryan
SM233 Iteration
Boston


Re: Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

 

David,

In Panama, you can contact Melani Beleño <compras.logistica@...> to have DEKA DC31DT lead acid batteries delivered to your boat at a dock

In April 2018 Melani wrote one of my clients the following: The price per units is $ 213.59, but We give you a special offer for $192.23 per units,  if you give us the used units could you have a extra discount. The cost of delivery is a $50.00 

Phone: (507) 322-3213 / 7 (507) 226-3693




Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 12:04 PM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
Hi Mark,

Thanks for that.  Yes, it’s all in the mix at the moment.

Lithium is not in the picture, mainly because of the need to change charging and management equipment & regimes.  Also, as you say, the risk of new tech on-board when heading out into the wilds.

I could grab some unknown-brand conventional GRP31 flooded lead acids for about USD200- per unit, available this week here in Panama.  Risk of early-failure, or short-life?  Hmmm – this is a big unknown, but have heard some horror-stories on batteries provided here in Panama.  BTW, standard no-name AGMs are about $450- here, off-the shelf.  But at least we’d be away.

Fireflies are under active consideration. Even if I might get one (or even two) dud batteries, I would still have 10 left – not ideal, of course, but still trucking.  With the ability for deeper discharge (than AGMs or conventional FLAs), having 5 pairs will give me approx. the same per-cycle capacity as 6-pairs of AGMs, with more cycles.

As it stands, I am running the risk-analysis on sailing away with only 5-pairs of my existing (3yo) AGMs operational (with one battery presently installed but not wired-in, held ‘in reserve’), knowing that I am exposed to losing another battery (or two).  Which would still leave me with 4-pairs, before I get the next opportunity replace the bank (in NZ or, under duress, in Tahiti).

It is an interesting dilemma to be facing.

I am open to all inputs and perspectives, just in case I am missing something in the heat of the moment.

Thanks again, and with kind regards also to Cindy please,

David&Leanne
SV Perigee, SM#396, Panama



On 30/5/19, 10:26 am, "Mark Erdos" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io on behalf of mcerdos@...> wrote:

    Hi David,

    The biggest issue I have with specialty batteries is the fact you are getting ready to sail to areas of the world where a single replacement of a like battery would be a big issue. Should you have a failure of one battery, you may find yourself in a situation again where you need to replace the entire bank or eliminate a pair. As for the warranty, will they ship a replacement world-wide? If it were me, I would stick with what I know to be readily available throughout the world. Just my unsolicited 2¢ worth.


    With best regards,

    Mark

    Skipper
    Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
    Currently cruising - Panama
    www.creampuff.us


    -----Original Message-----
    From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Vogel
    Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 10:27 AM
    To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    Thanks Bill, for the double-barrel response,

    Batteries: We are leaning towards replacing the whole lot with FIREFLYs, per Bill KINNEY on Harmonie.  If this does not prove possible within a reasonable time frame, we will disconnect the pair containing the remaining single from the pair that contained the dud battery, and head on out, anticipating replacement in NZ late 2020 if we can keep things going for that long, otherwise Tahiti.

    ONAN: In addition to replacing the Starter and –ve solenoid, I went through all the troubleshooting steps as suggested and per the Service Manual – all apparently OK and with no change – still a failure to crank.  When I finally got the technicians on board, they poked around finding nothing and eventually plugged in an old Control-Board from an ONAN 21kVa Genset.  This, apparently, has enough commonality with the 7MDKAV to enable our unit to crank, start and run (for 3 seconds before the protective mechanisms engaged and shut the unit down; this test repeated 3 times).  Thereby indicating that all our switches, relays etc are OK, but the PCB itself is at fault.  We’re n
    ow trying to source one of these control boards.

    Cheers,

    David&Leanne, PERIGEE, SM#396, Panama
    Bound for French Polynesia


    From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
    Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
    Date: Sunday, 26 May 2019 at 1:30 pm
    To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    I am not sure, and I believe you believe the same. With thousands of miles ahead of you and 3+ year old battery bank, I would consider changing the entire house bank, especially since getting 3-4 years is average for high-use Amels.

    Good on the lead acid start battery.

    When troubleshooting the Onan, I believe the weak point is the cable that runs inside from the negative connection post to the battery side of the Negative start solenoid.  The connection post where cables from the battery switches connect is located on the left side, facing, about half way down. I believe you can easily bypass this undersized cable by connecting a jumper from that connection post to the battery side of the negative start solenoid. You could also test the negative start solenoid by connecting that jumper cable to the starter side of the negative solenoid. 1 jumper cable can be used to test two items. If the problem turns out to be the negative start solenoid, don't leave that jumper on the starter side of the solenoid permanently.

    Best,

    CW Bill Rouse
    Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
    www.YachtSchool.us
    720 Winnie St
    Galveston Island, TX 77550
    +1(832) 380-4970

    On Sun, May 26, 2019, 11:24 AM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
    Greetings all,

    Whilst trouble-shooting an unserviceable ONAN (failure to crank), I checked out the health of the 105Ah 800CCA AGM start battery (good), and house-bank (12x105Ah AGMs).  Start and house batteries were all AGM, same model and date-of-install (Sep'16).

    All tested OK, with the exception of one battery in the house bank, which failed the State-of-Charge test with an Open-Circuit-Voltage (OCV) of 11.00V (as measured, so no surprises here), unstable; and failed State-of-Health of CCA of 35.0A).
    The other battery in the pair containing the failed battery surprisingly tested OK, with SoC 12.72V [92%] and SoH CCA of 642A [91%].

    As an interim step, whilst considering broader options ...
    ... I replaced the good start-battery with a 100Ah/700CCA flooded lead-acid battery; removed the failed AGM battery from the house bank, and replaced it with the 'good' AGM start battery.  The performance of the house battery bank immediately improved, I guess due to the absence of the parasitic load of the failed battery.

    However, concerned about the remaining battery in the new pair contained the failed battery, I have been keeping a close eye on the charge volts, current, and temps of all batteries.  24 hours after the swap-out/in, during the second charge cycle, I noted high charging current to the new battery-pair containing the old-start battery.

    The smart-charger was ordering ~150Amps from the 175A/24V Leece-Neville (normal for the start-of-charge-cycle) - 5 battery-pairs were accepting about 20Amps each (OK and as expected, at ~20% of the '20-hour rate' of 105Ah), but the 'at risk' pair was accepting 40 to 50Amps.  Temps for the 5 'good' pairs were about 1ºC above ambient and stable; but the temp of the questionable pair was ambient +2ºC and rising.  I stopped the charge cycle after 30 minutes; and isolated the questionable pair from the house-bank by removing the bridging strap between the batteries in the pair.  Shortly after the cessation of the interrupted charge cycle, the temperature of the high-current pair peaked at 36.5ºC (ambient other batteries +2.5ºC).

    I am seeking clarification regarding: Is is likely that the remaining battery from the 'old pair' had already suffered irreversible damage (such as an internal short), thereby reducing internal resistance, thereby accepting a higher charge (than the other 'good' battery pairs).

    On the basis of temperature alone , I do not think I have suffered temperature-related damage to the old start battery.  However:

    Question - is it likely that 30-minutes of charge at twice the maximum recommend bulk/absorption current charge-rate has resulted in permanent damage to the previously 'good' start-battery?

    This discussion shared for the learning, and also for the benefit of trouble-shooting by other unfortunates who may in future find themselves in a similar predicament.

    Thanks in anticipation ...

    David
    SM#396/Perigee
    On anchor, Brisas, Pacific side of Panama
      Departure for the Marquesas pending the
        return of the ONAN to service

    Diagnostic tools: Magneti Marelli BT002 Battery Tester; FLIR TG165 Spot Thermal Camera; Voltcraft VC-595OLED Digital Clamp Multimeter.
    Note: the OLED display on the Voltcraft multimeter is impossible to read in direct sunlight, so next time I would choose a model with a different type of display.  Otherwise, this is a great tool, although I do not use the BlueTooth functionality.



















Re: Amel 54 Standing Rigging and changes to the Mainmast Lower and Intermediate Shrouds

 

Thanks, Dean. As far as I know, that makes Stella #154 the earliest produced Amel 54 with 12mm lowers and 10mm Intermediates.

This is a summary of what I know as of today. I am sure the hull numbers will narrow with more reporting:
  1. #46 (2007) was produced with 10mm lowers and 8mm intermediates. Had rig failure due to lower shroud failure-reported in Amel Yacht Owners Group ​in ​July 2014.
  2. #117 (2009) was produced with 10mm lowers and 8mm intermediates. #128 (2009) was produced with 12mm lowers and 8mm Intermediates.
  3. #128 (2009) was produced with 12mm lowers and 8mm Intermediates.
  4. #154 (2010) was produced with 12mm lowers and 10mm Intermediates.
 
Best,
 
Bill Rouse
Yacht School  
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970


Re: Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

David Vogel
 

Hi Mark,

Thanks for that. Yes, it’s all in the mix at the moment.

Lithium is not in the picture, mainly because of the need to change charging and management equipment & regimes. Also, as you say, the risk of new tech on-board when heading out into the wilds.

I could grab some unknown-brand conventional GRP31 flooded lead acids for about USD200- per unit, available this week here in Panama. Risk of early-failure, or short-life? Hmmm – this is a big unknown, but have heard some horror-stories on batteries provided here in Panama. BTW, standard no-name AGMs are about $450- here, off-the shelf. But at least we’d be away.

Fireflies are under active consideration. Even if I might get one (or even two) dud batteries, I would still have 10 left – not ideal, of course, but still trucking. With the ability for deeper discharge (than AGMs or conventional FLAs), having 5 pairs will give me approx. the same per-cycle capacity as 6-pairs of AGMs, with more cycles.

As it stands, I am running the risk-analysis on sailing away with only 5-pairs of my existing (3yo) AGMs operational (with one battery presently installed but not wired-in, held ‘in reserve’), knowing that I am exposed to losing another battery (or two). Which would still leave me with 4-pairs, before I get the next opportunity replace the bank (in NZ or, under duress, in Tahiti).

It is an interesting dilemma to be facing.

I am open to all inputs and perspectives, just in case I am missing something in the heat of the moment.

Thanks again, and with kind regards also to Cindy please,

David&Leanne
SV Perigee, SM#396, Panama

On 30/5/19, 10:26 am, "Mark Erdos" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io on behalf of mcerdos@...> wrote:

Hi David,

The biggest issue I have with specialty batteries is the fact you are getting ready to sail to areas of the world where a single replacement of a like battery would be a big issue. Should you have a failure of one battery, you may find yourself in a situation again where you need to replace the entire bank or eliminate a pair. As for the warranty, will they ship a replacement world-wide? If it were me, I would stick with what I know to be readily available throughout the world. Just my unsolicited 2¢ worth.


With best regards,

Mark

Skipper
Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
Currently cruising - Panama
www.creampuff.us


-----Original Message-----
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Vogel
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 10:27 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

Thanks Bill, for the double-barrel response,

Batteries: We are leaning towards replacing the whole lot with FIREFLYs, per Bill KINNEY on Harmonie. If this does not prove possible within a reasonable time frame, we will disconnect the pair containing the remaining single from the pair that contained the dud battery, and head on out, anticipating replacement in NZ late 2020 if we can keep things going for that long, otherwise Tahiti.

ONAN: In addition to replacing the Starter and –ve solenoid, I went through all the troubleshooting steps as suggested and per the Service Manual – all apparently OK and with no change – still a failure to crank. When I finally got the technicians on board, they poked around finding nothing and eventually plugged in an old Control-Board from an ONAN 21kVa Genset. This, apparently, has enough commonality with the 7MDKAV to enable our unit to crank, start and run (for 3 seconds before the protective mechanisms engaged and shut the unit down; this test repeated 3 times). Thereby indicating that all our switches, relays etc are OK, but the PCB itself is at fault. We’re n
ow trying to source one of these control boards.

Cheers,

David&Leanne, PERIGEE, SM#396, Panama
Bound for French Polynesia


From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <@billrouse>
Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Sunday, 26 May 2019 at 1:30 pm
To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

I am not sure, and I believe you believe the same. With thousands of miles ahead of you and 3+ year old battery bank, I would consider changing the entire house bank, especially since getting 3-4 years is average for high-use Amels.

Good on the lead acid start battery.

When troubleshooting the Onan, I believe the weak point is the cable that runs inside from the negative connection post to the battery side of the Negative start solenoid. The connection post where cables from the battery switches connect is located on the left side, facing, about half way down. I believe you can easily bypass this undersized cable by connecting a jumper from that connection post to the battery side of the negative start solenoid. You could also test the negative start solenoid by connecting that jumper cable to the starter side of the negative solenoid. 1 jumper cable can be used to test two items. If the problem turns out to be the negative start solenoid, don't leave that jumper on the starter side of the solenoid permanently.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
www.YachtSchool.us
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Sun, May 26, 2019, 11:24 AM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
Greetings all,

Whilst trouble-shooting an unserviceable ONAN (failure to crank), I checked out the health of the 105Ah 800CCA AGM start battery (good), and house-bank (12x105Ah AGMs). Start and house batteries were all AGM, same model and date-of-install (Sep'16).

All tested OK, with the exception of one battery in the house bank, which failed the State-of-Charge test with an Open-Circuit-Voltage (OCV) of 11.00V (as measured, so no surprises here), unstable; and failed State-of-Health of CCA of 35.0A).
The other battery in the pair containing the failed battery surprisingly tested OK, with SoC 12.72V [92%] and SoH CCA of 642A [91%].

As an interim step, whilst considering broader options ...
... I replaced the good start-battery with a 100Ah/700CCA flooded lead-acid battery; removed the failed AGM battery from the house bank, and replaced it with the 'good' AGM start battery. The performance of the house battery bank immediately improved, I guess due to the absence of the parasitic load of the failed battery.

However, concerned about the remaining battery in the new pair contained the failed battery, I have been keeping a close eye on the charge volts, current, and temps of all batteries. 24 hours after the swap-out/in, during the second charge cycle, I noted high charging current to the new battery-pair containing the old-start battery.

The smart-charger was ordering ~150Amps from the 175A/24V Leece-Neville (normal for the start-of-charge-cycle) - 5 battery-pairs were accepting about 20Amps each (OK and as expected, at ~20% of the '20-hour rate' of 105Ah), but the 'at risk' pair was accepting 40 to 50Amps. Temps for the 5 'good' pairs were about 1ºC above ambient and stable; but the temp of the questionable pair was ambient +2ºC and rising. I stopped the charge cycle after 30 minutes; and isolated the questionable pair from the house-bank by removing the bridging strap between the batteries in the pair. Shortly after the cessation of the interrupted charge cycle, the temperature of the high-current pair peaked at 36.5ºC (ambient other batteries +2.5ºC).

I am seeking clarification regarding: Is is likely that the remaining battery from the 'old pair' had already suffered irreversible damage (such as an internal short), thereby reducing internal resistance, thereby accepting a higher charge (than the other 'good' battery pairs).

On the basis of temperature alone , I do not think I have suffered temperature-related damage to the old start battery. However:

Question - is it likely that 30-minutes of charge at twice the maximum recommend bulk/absorption current charge-rate has resulted in permanent damage to the previously 'good' start-battery?

This discussion shared for the learning, and also for the benefit of trouble-shooting by other unfortunates who may in future find themselves in a similar predicament.

Thanks in anticipation ...

David
SM#396/Perigee
On anchor, Brisas, Pacific side of Panama
Departure for the Marquesas pending the
return of the ONAN to service

Diagnostic tools: Magneti Marelli BT002 Battery Tester; FLIR TG165 Spot Thermal Camera; Voltcraft VC-595OLED Digital Clamp Multimeter.
Note: the OLED display on the Voltcraft multimeter is impossible to read in direct sunlight, so next time I would choose a model with a different type of display. Otherwise, this is a great tool, although I do not use the BlueTooth functionality.


Re: Amel 54 Standing Rigging and changes to the Mainmast Lower and Intermediate Shrouds

Dean Gillies
 

Bill,
For your records I can confirm that A54-154 has the reinforced mast, and the up-sized rigging.
best regards,
Dean


Re: Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

Mark Erdos
 

Hi David,

The biggest issue I have with specialty batteries is the fact you are getting ready to sail to areas of the world where a single replacement of a like battery would be a big issue. Should you have a failure of one battery, you may find yourself in a situation again where you need to replace the entire bank or eliminate a pair. As for the warranty, will they ship a replacement world-wide? If it were me, I would stick with what I know to be readily available throughout the world. Just my unsolicited 2¢ worth.


With best regards,

Mark

Skipper
Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
Currently cruising - Panama
www.creampuff.us

-----Original Message-----
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Vogel
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 10:27 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

Thanks Bill, for the double-barrel response,

Batteries: We are leaning towards replacing the whole lot with FIREFLYs, per Bill KINNEY on Harmonie. If this does not prove possible within a reasonable time frame, we will disconnect the pair containing the remaining single from the pair that contained the dud battery, and head on out, anticipating replacement in NZ late 2020 if we can keep things going for that long, otherwise Tahiti.

ONAN: In addition to replacing the Starter and –ve solenoid, I went through all the troubleshooting steps as suggested and per the Service Manual – all apparently OK and with no change – still a failure to crank. When I finally got the technicians on board, they poked around finding nothing and eventually plugged in an old Control-Board from an ONAN 21kVa Genset. This, apparently, has enough commonality with the 7MDKAV to enable our unit to crank, start and run (for 3 seconds before the protective mechanisms engaged and shut the unit down; this test repeated 3 times). Thereby indicating that all our switches, relays etc are OK, but the PCB itself is at fault. We’re n
ow trying to source one of these control boards.

Cheers,

David&Leanne, PERIGEE, SM#396, Panama
Bound for French Polynesia


From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <@billrouse>
Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Sunday, 26 May 2019 at 1:30 pm
To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

I am not sure, and I believe you believe the same. With thousands of miles ahead of you and 3+ year old battery bank, I would consider changing the entire house bank, especially since getting 3-4 years is average for high-use Amels.

Good on the lead acid start battery.

When troubleshooting the Onan, I believe the weak point is the cable that runs inside from the negative connection post to the battery side of the Negative start solenoid. The connection post where cables from the battery switches connect is located on the left side, facing, about half way down. I believe you can easily bypass this undersized cable by connecting a jumper from that connection post to the battery side of the negative start solenoid. You could also test the negative start solenoid by connecting that jumper cable to the starter side of the negative solenoid. 1 jumper cable can be used to test two items. If the problem turns out to be the negative start solenoid, don't leave that jumper on the starter side of the solenoid permanently.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
www.YachtSchool.us
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Sun, May 26, 2019, 11:24 AM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
Greetings all,

Whilst trouble-shooting an unserviceable ONAN (failure to crank), I checked out the health of the 105Ah 800CCA AGM start battery (good), and house-bank (12x105Ah AGMs). Start and house batteries were all AGM, same model and date-of-install (Sep'16).

All tested OK, with the exception of one battery in the house bank, which failed the State-of-Charge test with an Open-Circuit-Voltage (OCV) of 11.00V (as measured, so no surprises here), unstable; and failed State-of-Health of CCA of 35.0A).
The other battery in the pair containing the failed battery surprisingly tested OK, with SoC 12.72V [92%] and SoH CCA of 642A [91%].

As an interim step, whilst considering broader options ...
... I replaced the good start-battery with a 100Ah/700CCA flooded lead-acid battery; removed the failed AGM battery from the house bank, and replaced it with the 'good' AGM start battery. The performance of the house battery bank immediately improved, I guess due to the absence of the parasitic load of the failed battery.

However, concerned about the remaining battery in the new pair contained the failed battery, I have been keeping a close eye on the charge volts, current, and temps of all batteries. 24 hours after the swap-out/in, during the second charge cycle, I noted high charging current to the new battery-pair containing the old-start battery.

The smart-charger was ordering ~150Amps from the 175A/24V Leece-Neville (normal for the start-of-charge-cycle) - 5 battery-pairs were accepting about 20Amps each (OK and as expected, at ~20% of the '20-hour rate' of 105Ah), but the 'at risk' pair was accepting 40 to 50Amps. Temps for the 5 'good' pairs were about 1ºC above ambient and stable; but the temp of the questionable pair was ambient +2ºC and rising. I stopped the charge cycle after 30 minutes; and isolated the questionable pair from the house-bank by removing the bridging strap between the batteries in the pair. Shortly after the cessation of the interrupted charge cycle, the temperature of the high-current pair peaked at 36.5ºC (ambient other batteries +2.5ºC).

I am seeking clarification regarding: Is is likely that the remaining battery from the 'old pair' had already suffered irreversible damage (such as an internal short), thereby reducing internal resistance, thereby accepting a higher charge (than the other 'good' battery pairs).

On the basis of temperature alone , I do not think I have suffered temperature-related damage to the old start battery. However:

Question - is it likely that 30-minutes of charge at twice the maximum recommend bulk/absorption current charge-rate has resulted in permanent damage to the previously 'good' start-battery?

This discussion shared for the learning, and also for the benefit of trouble-shooting by other unfortunates who may in future find themselves in a similar predicament.

Thanks in anticipation ...

David
SM#396/Perigee
On anchor, Brisas, Pacific side of Panama
Departure for the Marquesas pending the
return of the ONAN to service

Diagnostic tools: Magneti Marelli BT002 Battery Tester; FLIR TG165 Spot Thermal Camera; Voltcraft VC-595OLED Digital Clamp Multimeter.
Note: the OLED display on the Voltcraft multimeter is impossible to read in direct sunlight, so next time I would choose a model with a different type of display. Otherwise, this is a great tool, although I do not use the BlueTooth functionality.


Re: Amel 54 Standing Rigging and changes to the Mainmast Lower and Intermediate Shrouds

 

Arno, yes, I also would think that Amel should have notified owners, but apparently did not issue anything to the owners. However, apparently Amel did change the specification with ACMO. And, yes, I would have expected SAV to give me some guidance when I specifically asked, but, maybe I will eventually receive that.

I am sure that there is a lot that I do not know about this, and if known, might answer your questions.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 10:52 AM Peter Forbes <ppsforbes@...> wrote:
Bill,

OK if Rudi had them changed ‘up-spec’ then I’m not surprised - lucky for me and any new owner of Carango.

Thanks 

Peter

Peter Forbes
The Old Rectory
Farnham
Blandford
Dorset
DT11 8DE




On 30 May 2019, at 14:39, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Peter,

Probably not. Rudi probably changed them before you bought her. Amel 54 #46 was made several months after #35 and had 10mm Lower Shrouds. 

#46 reported to this group a failure of both lower shrouds which caused rig failure near Easter Island. You can search topics in this group for "Lower Shrouds Main Mast" to see that report. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
www.YachtSchool.us
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Thu, May 30, 2019, 7:59 AM Peter Forbes <ppsforbes@...> wrote:
My Main Aft Lowers are 12mm- on AMEL 54 #035 - I imagine these are the original.

Peter Forbes
Amel 54
Carango
La Rochelle

On Thu, 30 May 2019 at 13:40, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Arno,

I think we can assume that ACMO did this on instructions from Amel because the larger rigging wire was installed on later production 54s, and obviously ordered that way by Amel.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
www.YachtSchool.us
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Thu, May 30, 2019, 6:45 AM Arno Luijten <arno.luijten@...> wrote:
Hi Bill,

On hull 121 the sizes are still the original ones so 8 intermediate, 10 lower.
I have not noticed any issues with these shrouds.
I have more concern with the lower shroud on the mizzen as it is 7 mm and seems to be a bit too stretchy when sailing. 
Did the OEM rigger give any reason why they beefed up the main mast rigging?

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121




-- 
Best wishes
Peter Forbes
+44 (0) 7836 209730




Re: Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

 


On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 10:51 AM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:

Hi Mark,

 

Done.  Thanks.

 

David

 

 

 

From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Mark McGovern <mfmcgovern@...>
Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Thursday, 30 May 2019 at 10:39 am
To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

 

David,

I was going to suggest the following but you beat me to it: 

"we will disconnect the pair containing the remaining single from the pair that contained the dud battery"

However, I would suggest that you do this immediately so as to not risk damaging the other pairs. Especially if you want to wring a little more life out out of the remaining batteries in the bank.

--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA


Re: Amel 54 Standing Rigging and changes to the Mainmast Lower and Intermediate Shrouds

Peter Forbes
 

Bill,

OK if Rudi had them changed ‘up-spec’ then I’m not surprised - lucky for me and any new owner of Carango.

Thanks 

Peter

Peter Forbes
The Old Rectory
Farnham
Blandford
Dorset
DT11 8DE




On 30 May 2019, at 14:39, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Peter,

Probably not. Rudi probably changed them before you bought her. Amel 54 #46 was made several months after #35 and had 10mm Lower Shrouds. 

#46 reported to this group a failure of both lower shrouds which caused rig failure near Easter Island. You can search topics in this group for "Lower Shrouds Main Mast" to see that report. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
www.YachtSchool.us
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Thu, May 30, 2019, 7:59 AM Peter Forbes <ppsforbes@...> wrote:
My Main Aft Lowers are 12mm- on AMEL 54 #035 - I imagine these are the original.

Peter Forbes
Amel 54
Carango
La Rochelle

On Thu, 30 May 2019 at 13:40, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Arno,

I think we can assume that ACMO did this on instructions from Amel because the larger rigging wire was installed on later production 54s, and obviously ordered that way by Amel.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
www.YachtSchool.us
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Thu, May 30, 2019, 6:45 AM Arno Luijten <arno.luijten@...> wrote:
Hi Bill,

On hull 121 the sizes are still the original ones so 8 intermediate, 10 lower.
I have not noticed any issues with these shrouds.
I have more concern with the lower shroud on the mizzen as it is 7 mm and seems to be a bit too stretchy when sailing. 
Did the OEM rigger give any reason why they beefed up the main mast rigging?

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121




-- 
Best wishes
Peter Forbes
+44 (0) 7836 209730




Re: Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

David Vogel
 

Hi Mark,

 

Done.  Thanks.

 

David

 

 

 

From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Mark McGovern <mfmcgovern@...>
Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Thursday, 30 May 2019 at 10:39 am
To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

 

David,

I was going to suggest the following but you beat me to it: 

"we will disconnect the pair containing the remaining single from the pair that contained the dud battery"

However, I would suggest that you do this immediately so as to not risk damaging the other pairs. Especially if you want to wring a little more life out out of the remaining batteries in the bank.

--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA


Re: Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

Mark McGovern
 

David,

I was going to suggest the following but you beat me to it

"we will disconnect the pair containing the remaining single from the pair that contained the dud battery"

However, I would suggest that you do this immediately so as to not risk damaging the other pairs. Especially if you want to wring a little more life out out of the remaining batteries in the bank.


--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA


Re: Amel 54 Standing Rigging and changes to the Mainmast Lower and Intermediate Shrouds

Arno Luijten
 

Hi Bill,

I get that, but it does not reveal the real cause for the increase. I would imagine Amel would issue a safety bulletin if they found out the original sizes too small. Loosing your rig seems a bit much to find out the shrouds were not beefy enough.

Arno
SV Luna,
A54-121


Re: Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

David Vogel
 

Thanks Alan,

The old start battery seems to be OOK in service. However, it appears that the battery that was paired with the failed one is also on the way out (if not already failed, just showing signs of life).

We are leaning towards replacing the whole lot with Fireflies, but this is introducing scheduling issues – namely, the clock it already ticking on our French Long-Stay visas, and if we don’t get away soon, the VISAs wil time-expire. Naming that we will have to move on (to NZ), where we might well have otherwise done the replacement anyway (if the current remaining batteries do not fail in the meantime).

Which Battery Balancer to you use (&/or recommend)?

Best,

David&Leanne, PERIGEE, SM#396, Panama
Bound for French Poly

From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...>
Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Monday, 27 May 2019 at 2:14 am
To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

David.
I think it highly likely that the AGM start battery is not in the same state of charge as the house bank AGMs that have been charged quite differently. 
All house bank batteries should be the same brand, type and age to minimise differences in charging. Further I believe that if you have batteries in series parallel, the in between links should be connected in parallel banks and also with a battery balancer to ensure equal charging to each individual battery.
I'm afraid I agree with Bill, you should replace the complete house bank.
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM 437


Re: Vetus Flexi coupling

 

Gary,

I think you identified two big issues. The heat will reach the operating temperature of the engine, which is 80C. 

I just did a search of nylocs. The temperature range is all over the place, but 80 degrees seems within the range of all I checked that specify a temperature range. And 10-15 used seems to be the range of those that claimed multiple use. 

The fact is that most of us would not think of these things and grab nylocs from a bin without any verification of material used, or specifications. That fact, along with the fact that Chinese manufacturers probably make most of these, spells problems.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
www.YachtSchool.us
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Thu, May 30, 2019, 9:17 AM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Kent:

You are correct that Nylock nuts a single use items (at least in aircraft applications and I assume in other critical applications).  They are also low heat suitable as nylon deforms at temperature.  I don't know how hot this area gets but perhaps metal locking nuts would be better.  In the aircraft industry metal locking nuts are used in virtually all engine compartment applications.  There are specially coated metal locking nuts that are suitable even on exhaust components. 
Various types such as  https://jlanfranco.com/products/all-metal-locknuts/    or  for aircraft https://catalog.continental-aero.com/viewitems/all-metal-lock-nuts/all-categories-all-metal-lock-nuts-aero-flex

You will have to do some research to find the metric size and grade you need. 

All the best, 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
Puerto Del Rey Marina, Puerto Rico 


Re: Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

David Vogel
 

Thanks Bill, for the double-barrel response,

Batteries: We are leaning towards replacing the whole lot with FIREFLYs, per Bill KINNEY on Harmonie. If this does not prove possible within a reasonable time frame, we will disconnect the pair containing the remaining single from the pair that contained the dud battery, and head on out, anticipating replacement in NZ late 2020 if we can keep things going for that long, otherwise Tahiti.

ONAN: In addition to replacing the Starter and –ve solenoid, I went through all the troubleshooting steps as suggested and per the Service Manual – all apparently OK and with no change – still a failure to crank. When I finally got the technicians on board, they poked around finding nothing and eventually plugged in an old Control-Board from an ONAN 21kVa Genset. This, apparently, has enough commonality with the 7MDKAV to enable our unit to crank, start and run (for 3 seconds before the protective mechanisms engaged and shut the unit down; this test repeated 3 times). Thereby indicating that all our switches, relays etc are OK, but the PCB itself is at fault. We’re n
ow trying to source one of these control boards.

Cheers,

David&Leanne, PERIGEE, SM#396, Panama
Bound for French Polynesia


From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <@billrouse>
Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Sunday, 26 May 2019 at 1:30 pm
To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

I am not sure, and I believe you believe the same. With thousands of miles ahead of you and 3+ year old battery bank, I would consider changing the entire house bank, especially since getting 3-4 years is average for high-use Amels. 

Good on the lead acid start battery. 

When troubleshooting the Onan, I believe the weak point is the cable that runs inside from the negative connection post to the battery side of the Negative start solenoid.  The connection post where cables from the battery switches connect is located on the left side, facing, about half way down. I believe you can easily bypass this undersized cable by connecting a jumper from that connection post to the battery side of the negative start solenoid. You could also test the negative start solenoid by connecting that jumper cable to the starter side of the negative solenoid. 1 jumper cable can be used to test two items. If the problem turns out to be the negative start solenoid, don't leave that jumper on the starter side of the solenoid permanently.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
www.YachtSchool.us
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Sun, May 26, 2019, 11:24 AM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
Greetings all,

Whilst trouble-shooting an unserviceable ONAN (failure to crank), I checked out the health of the 105Ah 800CCA AGM start battery (good), and house-bank (12x105Ah AGMs).  Start and house batteries were all AGM, same model and date-of-install (Sep'16).

All tested OK, with the exception of one battery in the house bank, which failed the State-of-Charge test with an Open-Circuit-Voltage (OCV) of 11.00V (as measured, so no surprises here), unstable; and failed State-of-Health of CCA of 35.0A).
The other battery in the pair containing the failed battery surprisingly tested OK, with SoC 12.72V [92%] and SoH CCA of 642A [91%].

As an interim step, whilst considering broader options ...
... I replaced the good start-battery with a 100Ah/700CCA flooded lead-acid battery; removed the failed AGM battery from the house bank, and replaced it with the 'good' AGM start battery.  The performance of the house battery bank immediately improved, I guess due to the absence of the parasitic load of the failed battery.

However, concerned about the remaining battery in the new pair contained the failed battery, I have been keeping a close eye on the charge volts, current, and temps of all batteries.  24 hours after the swap-out/in, during the second charge cycle, I noted high charging current to the new battery-pair containing the old-start battery.

The smart-charger was ordering ~150Amps from the 175A/24V Leece-Neville (normal for the start-of-charge-cycle) - 5 battery-pairs were accepting about 20Amps each (OK and as expected, at ~20% of the '20-hour rate' of 105Ah), but the 'at risk' pair was accepting 40 to 50Amps.  Temps for the 5 'good' pairs were about 1ºC above ambient and stable; but the temp of the questionable pair was ambient +2ºC and rising.  I stopped the charge cycle after 30 minutes; and isolated the questionable pair from the house-bank by removing the bridging strap between the batteries in the pair.  Shortly after the cessation of the interrupted charge cycle, the temperature of the high-current pair peaked at 36.5ºC (ambient other batteries +2.5ºC).

I am seeking clarification regarding: Is is likely that the remaining battery from the 'old pair' had already suffered irreversible damage (such as an internal short), thereby reducing internal resistance, thereby accepting a higher charge (than the other 'good' battery pairs).

On the basis of temperature alone , I do not think I have suffered temperature-related damage to the old start battery.  However:

Question - is it likely that 30-minutes of charge at twice the maximum recommend bulk/absorption current charge-rate has resulted in permanent damage to the previously 'good' start-battery?

This discussion shared for the learning, and also for the benefit of trouble-shooting by other unfortunates who may in future find themselves in a similar predicament.

Thanks in anticipation ...

David
SM#396/Perigee
On anchor, Brisas, Pacific side of Panama
  Departure for the Marquesas pending the
    return of the ONAN to service

Diagnostic tools: Magneti Marelli BT002 Battery Tester; FLIR TG165 Spot Thermal Camera; Voltcraft VC-595OLED Digital Clamp Multimeter.
Note: the OLED display on the Voltcraft multimeter is impossible to read in direct sunlight, so next time I would choose a model with a different type of display.  Otherwise, this is a great tool, although I do not use the BlueTooth functionality.


Re: Vetus Flexi coupling

Gary Silver
 

Hi Kent:

You are correct that Nylock nuts a single use items (at least in aircraft applications and I assume in other critical applications).  They are also low heat suitable as nylon deforms at temperature.  I don't know how hot this area gets but perhaps metal locking nuts would be better.  In the aircraft industry metal locking nuts are used in virtually all engine compartment applications.  There are specially coated metal locking nuts that are suitable even on exhaust components. 
Various types such as  https://jlanfranco.com/products/all-metal-locknuts/    or  for aircraft https://catalog.continental-aero.com/viewitems/all-metal-lock-nuts/all-categories-all-metal-lock-nuts-aero-flex

You will have to do some research to find the metric size and grade you need. 

All the best, 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
Puerto Del Rey Marina, Puerto Rico