Date   

Re: SM Climma AC - Calpeda Pump Voltage with Breakers Off

 

Dan,

My advice is to never trust a previous owner. 😀

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 1:27 AM Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
Hi Bill R., 

I was specifically replying to Gary Silver and his thread on the Calpeda AC Pump. It  looks like his last response is imbedded below mine in my email, and my response looks like it is still attached to the main thread in my e-mail inbox.  But perhaps in the forum or your email it shows up separately and would thus of course it would be difficult to see the context. As I am remote in the western Carribean, I am pretty limited to my smart phone functionality.

In one of Gary's e-mails he expressed interest in what other boats were measuring; therefore my description of measurements were in response to his measurements at the Calpeda AC sea water pump for the various conditions that I described.
 
When the pump was wired but switched off at the breaker I had one set of readings, another when the main 30amp GFCI was switched off, and then when I disconected the supply wires at the pump I had another set of readings on across the three wires.  I think that my readings are consistent with US power supply having 220 supplied by 110 on one supply and the other 110 being supplied on the 2nd hot wire 180 degrees off phase.  However,  I will take your point to check the pedestal and the 60Hz shore power plug (as it was wired by the previous owner :-) ) 

I also agree with Danny's response supporting full disconnect at the pedistal; however in this case I did my tests carefully with power supplied in order to try to understand and provide some supportive data to Gary's observations.

Thanks and regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe SM#387




On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 11:05 AM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@... wrote:
Dan,

I am a little lost as to where exactly you are measuring the voltage, but will generally respond.

Sounds to me like you could have 120v on the Earth wire (yellow/green) because you show zero between brown and blue. 
Causes:
  • This could be caused by shore power cable/plug wired incorrectly. I have seen the Earth wire (yellow/green) connected to the center post of a USA plug rather than to the metal sleeve of the plug. 
  • I have also seen marina pedestals wired wrong placing voltage on Earth wire (yellow/green
  • I have also seen this happen when using a pedestal shared with another boat which is wired wrong. 
I would trace starting with the pedestal connection.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 12:14 PM Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
Hi Gary,
I am on BeBe at Red Frog Marina in Panama wit 60Hz shore power.  I just checked, with all the AC breakers off but  the main GFI on, and I have: 1)  120v from blue to yellow/green, as well as from brown to the yellow/green. 2) I show 0 volts AC accross the blue to brown contacts (I don't understand how you could measure 240 v across the Blue to brown when the motor is not running?). 3) when I turn of the main GFI breaker there is no voltage.    I did not test the generator.  

That is a shocking discovery!  It would be very interesting to get confirmation of the voltages from a boat on 50 Hz supply. 

One thought: Could the stray voltage be coming back from the capacitor.  It shows 0 across the Blue to brow because the voltage on the blue and brown are on the same cycle when there is only one 120v source?  To test this I disconnected the blue and brown wires and measured the voltage of these independently: Blue wire to yellow/green was 120v, Brown wire to yellow/green showed 39v (Stray voltage?).  The voltage across the Blue to Brown was 120v.

I'm surprised this has not come up before, as it creates a very unsafe condition for one assuming the circuit is de-energized.  My conclusion is to disconnect at the pedistal when working on the AC circuits to be safe.

Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387




On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:37 PM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver=mac.com@groups.io wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Hi Bill and Eric:

Yes, all the 220 panel CBs are double pole (both Line [brown] and Neutral [Blue] are switched).  With all breakers open (tripped) there is still 240 VAC across the blue and brown leads at the Calpeda Pump when hooked to shore power, but not when the genset is running.  Looking at the Climma schematic (really more of a diagram) the neutral and safety ground wires are wire straight thru from the "separate source" and the Line [brown] from the separate source is switched by the relays to provide line voltage to the pump when a given unit is switched on. So I can see perhaps that there might be 110 voltage between the blue and safety ground at the pump from this "seperate source" but not the 220 that I am seeing.  Olivier, are you there?   What is the separate source for the Climma relay box?

I believe that the "other source" supply for the relay box is directly wired from the 220 volt buss just down-stream from the GFCI 30 amp breaker on the side of the 220 volt panel before it is distributed to any of the CBs (Diruptors).  The difference between Euro power and US power is noted and somehow plays into this.   Will continue to puzzle this out along with you.  Perhaps I need to get to sail to some European power, plug in and see if the mystery voltage goes away.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
Puerto Rico 


Re: 100 amp charger on sm2k

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Thomas. If the dolphin is still available I would go with them. I replaced mine 5 or 6 years ago and found the company very good and the chargers work well.

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 28 April 2019 at 19:16 Thomas Kleman <lorient422@...> wrote:

My original 100 amp Dolphin died about 4 years ago, and it made me nervous anyway because it lacked a battery temperature sensor. I replaced it with a 100 amp Mastervolt charger, which seems to have died this weekend....having verified all connections and voltage and still getting nothing. Wondering what others have chosen when replacing the Dolphin. Having done several hours of customer complaint sleuthing it seems that the Mastervolt can be temperature sensitive and the battery chargers on a SM are relatively close to the gen.


100 amp charger on sm2k

Thomas Kleman
 

My original 100 amp Dolphin died about 4 years ago, and it made me nervous anyway because it lacked a battery temperature sensor. I replaced it with a 100 amp Mastervolt charger, which seems to have died this weekend....having verified all connections and voltage and still getting nothing. Wondering what others have chosen when replacing the Dolphin. Having done several hours of customer complaint sleuthing it seems that the Mastervolt can be temperature sensitive and the battery chargers on a SM are relatively close to the gen.


Re: SM Climma AC - Calpeda Pump Voltage with Breakers Off

Dan Carlson
 

Hi Bill R., 

I was specifically replying to Gary Silver and his thread on the Calpeda AC Pump. It  looks like his last response is imbedded below mine in my email, and my response looks like it is still attached to the main thread in my e-mail inbox.  But perhaps in the forum or your email it shows up separately and would thus of course it would be difficult to see the context. As I am remote in the western Carribean, I am pretty limited to my smart phone functionality.

In one of Gary's e-mails he expressed interest in what other boats were measuring; therefore my description of measurements were in response to his measurements at the Calpeda AC sea water pump for the various conditions that I described.
 
When the pump was wired but switched off at the breaker I had one set of readings, another when the main 30amp GFCI was switched off, and then when I disconected the supply wires at the pump I had another set of readings on across the three wires.  I think that my readings are consistent with US power supply having 220 supplied by 110 on one supply and the other 110 being supplied on the 2nd hot wire 180 degrees off phase.  However,  I will take your point to check the pedestal and the 60Hz shore power plug (as it was wired by the previous owner :-) ) 

I also agree with Danny's response supporting full disconnect at the pedistal; however in this case I did my tests carefully with power supplied in order to try to understand and provide some supportive data to Gary's observations.

Thanks and regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe SM#387




On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 11:05 AM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@... wrote:
Dan,

I am a little lost as to where exactly you are measuring the voltage, but will generally respond.

Sounds to me like you could have 120v on the Earth wire (yellow/green) because you show zero between brown and blue. 
Causes:
  • This could be caused by shore power cable/plug wired incorrectly. I have seen the Earth wire (yellow/green) connected to the center post of a USA plug rather than to the metal sleeve of the plug. 
  • I have also seen marina pedestals wired wrong placing voltage on Earth wire (yellow/green
  • I have also seen this happen when using a pedestal shared with another boat which is wired wrong. 
I would trace starting with the pedestal connection.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 12:14 PM Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
Hi Gary,
I am on BeBe at Red Frog Marina in Panama wit 60Hz shore power.  I just checked, with all the AC breakers off but  the main GFI on, and I have: 1)  120v from blue to yellow/green, as well as from brown to the yellow/green. 2) I show 0 volts AC accross the blue to brown contacts (I don't understand how you could measure 240 v across the Blue to brown when the motor is not running?). 3) when I turn of the main GFI breaker there is no voltage.    I did not test the generator.  

That is a shocking discovery!  It would be very interesting to get confirmation of the voltages from a boat on 50 Hz supply. 

One thought: Could the stray voltage be coming back from the capacitor.  It shows 0 across the Blue to brow because the voltage on the blue and brown are on the same cycle when there is only one 120v source?  To test this I disconnected the blue and brown wires and measured the voltage of these independently: Blue wire to yellow/green was 120v, Brown wire to yellow/green showed 39v (Stray voltage?).  The voltage across the Blue to Brown was 120v.

I'm surprised this has not come up before, as it creates a very unsafe condition for one assuming the circuit is de-energized.  My conclusion is to disconnect at the pedistal when working on the AC circuits to be safe.

Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387




On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:37 PM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver=mac.com@groups.io wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Hi Bill and Eric:

Yes, all the 220 panel CBs are double pole (both Line [brown] and Neutral [Blue] are switched).  With all breakers open (tripped) there is still 240 VAC across the blue and brown leads at the Calpeda Pump when hooked to shore power, but not when the genset is running.  Looking at the Climma schematic (really more of a diagram) the neutral and safety ground wires are wire straight thru from the "separate source" and the Line [brown] from the separate source is switched by the relays to provide line voltage to the pump when a given unit is switched on. So I can see perhaps that there might be 110 voltage between the blue and safety ground at the pump from this "seperate source" but not the 220 that I am seeing.  Olivier, are you there?   What is the separate source for the Climma relay box?

I believe that the "other source" supply for the relay box is directly wired from the 220 volt buss just down-stream from the GFCI 30 amp breaker on the side of the 220 volt panel before it is distributed to any of the CBs (Diruptors).  The difference between Euro power and US power is noted and somehow plays into this.   Will continue to puzzle this out along with you.  Perhaps I need to get to sail to some European power, plug in and see if the mystery voltage goes away.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
Puerto Rico 


Re: SM Chain Counter Update

Thomas Peacock
 

Yes, we have also tried the chain tags. They are sometimes hard to see, and sometimes fall off. They sort of work, but I always felt they were suboptimal. The meters per second idea of Michael is a little easier, again, just in my opinion. But, since there is seemingly a counter on board, that seemed the best solution, if it would work. Plus, Captain Amel thought it was a good idea, so it must be!

Indeed, the counter measures meters whether you are dropping or weighing anchor. There is no plus or minus. There is a switch in the wiring above the sink. My sense is you write down your chain length after you are secure; then turn the switch off and then on, and when you weigh anchor, the two numbers should agree. If you have only dropped 30 or 40 meters, then your system works equally well.

I admit, too many brain-calories for a small problem.



On Apr 27, 2019, at 5:06 PM, Mark Erdos <mcerdos@...> wrote:

Remarkably, our chain counter and display still work after 20 years. Albeit it only counts upward even if the chain is coming in. Easy to work through: put out 30 meters of chain and then count to 60 meters when hoisting the anchor.

In anticipation of all this failing one day while we are in the middle of nowhere without parts, we marked the chain at 25’, 50’, 100’, 150’ 200’ and 250’
 
We use colored rope and colored wire ties. The ties actually work better as I can see them go over the windless from the helm. We are doing an experiment to see which last longer.
 
 
 
 
With best regards,
 
Mark
 
Skipper
Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
Currently cruising - San Blas Islands, Panama
 
 


Re: SM Chain Counter Update

Mark Erdos
 

Remarkably, our chain counter and display still work after 20 years. Albeit it only counts upward even if the chain is coming in. Easy to work through: put out 30 meters of chain and then count to 60 meters when hoisting the anchor.

In anticipation of all this failing one day while we are in the middle of nowhere without parts, we marked the chain at 25’, 50’, 100’, 150’ 200’ and 250’

 

We use colored rope and colored wire ties. The ties actually work better as I can see them go over the windless from the helm. We are doing an experiment to see which last longer.

 

 

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - San Blas Islands, Panama

www.creampuff.us

 

 


Re: SM Chain Counter Update

michael winand
 

We just use a time count. 20sec=25m.
These chain counters are not just an issue with amel. Nearly every vessel I have been on has had issues with the counter. 
Maybe keep it simple 

On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 at 1:05 am, Thomas Peacock
<peacock8491@...> wrote:
Thanks to Ian, Seckin, Kelly and Ryan for your thoughts. I feel like I could declare Chain Counters as a thesis topic towards a PhD after the number of hours I have spent on this. I never considered myself obsessive before sailing this boat, it seems to be bringing that out in me. 
I’m not certain how many SM’s have a similar counter, our #240 was right on the cusp between SM and SM 2000, with features of both. It seems to be a LaRochelle designed counter, as the digital display has the Amel logo on it.
 
As mentioned, there are four cables coming into the junction box above the sink:
 
A 12.5 volts power from the Sailor 24V->12V transformer, two wires, straightforward power and ground; its sole function is power
 
A 24 volts power cable from the windlass control in the cockpit, three wires, one always 24 V, one ground, and one that is 24 V only when the windlass is activated; those wires then go to a block of three relays, which do something, I suspect in part activate the 12V part of the chain counter system, also perhaps convert the rotation of the windlass into meters
 
A three wire cable going forward to the windlass, one with 12.5 volts power, one ground, and the other one being a green signal wire with 11.75 volts power (derived from the display cable)
 
A four wire cable going to the digital display, one with 12.5 volts feeding off the power cable, one with 11.75 volts returning from the display (which feeds power to the green signal wire going to the windlass), the other two being used for signal
 
As mentioned, I have replaced the original sensor (IB5076, made by IFM, no longer in production), with one that is TOTALLY identical in all specs, IB5072, except for the fact that it is normally open. The 5076 was normally closed. These are heavy duty inductive sensors, just detecting proximity to conductive metal, no magnet necessary. They are structurally robust, designed for use in pickle factories! It’s a German company, and the Germans do love their pickles. There is an LED on the unit that will indicate that it is sensing.
 
When the sensor detects a conducting metal, it sends out about 0.7 volts, not sure how many milliamps. With the background voltage in the green signal wire of 11.75 volts, the voltage then rises to 12.5 volts. 
 
All that said, when running the windlass I could never get the chain counter display to change from “00”. I was able to change the sensor output from normally open to normally closed with a relay, again without any success on the counter.
 
After my therapist advised me to take a break from the chain counter obsession, I then went on to rebuild the windlass, which is now completely disassembled. Nevertheless, I returned to the chain counter problem, hooking up the sensor directly to the wires above the sink. I used a steel box cutter knife to act as a target for the sensor, ran the windlass switch (even though no windlass), et voilà!!! The display ticks off once for every three times I pass the knife in front of the sensor, I assume three revolutions of the windlass equals one meter. That was without having to change the open/closed status with a relay.
 
So, the system does now work, not sure why it didn’t work with the actual windlass. A little more trouble-shooting ahead when I get the windlass back on deck. Seckin, and anyone else who is having problems, feel free to contact me off forum if needs be, I’m happy to help. 
 
Tom Peacock
SM #240 Aletes
Rock Hall, Chesapeake Bay
 
I’m not certain how many SM’s have a similar counter, our #240 was right on the cusp between SM and SM 2000, with features of both. It seems to be a LaRochelle designed counter, as the digital display has the Amel logo on it.
 
As mentioned, there are four cables coming into the junction box above the sink:
 
A 12.5 volts power from the Sailor 24V->12V transformer, two wires, straightforward power and ground; its sole function is power
 
A 24 volts power cable from the windlass control in the cockpit, three wires, one always 24 V, one ground, and one that is 24 V only when the windlass is activated; those wires then go to a block of three relays, which do something, I suspect in part activate the 12V part of the chain counter system, also perhaps convert the rotation of the windlass into meters)
 
A three wire cable going forward to the windlass, one with 12.5 volts power, one ground, and the other one being a green signal wire with 11.75 volts power (derived from the display cable)
 
A four wire cable going to the digital display, one with 12.5 volts feeding off the power cable, one with 11.75 volts returning from the display (which feeds power to the green signal wire going to the windlass), the other two being used for signal
 
As mentioned, I have replaced the original sensor (IB5076, made by IFM, no longer in production), with one that is TOTALLY identical in all specs, IB5072, except for the fact that it is normally open. The 5076 was normally closed. These are heavy duty inductive sensors, just detecting proximity to conductive metal, no magnet necessary. They are structurally robust, designed for use in pickle factories! It’s a German company, and the Germans do love their pickles. There is an LED on the unit that will indicate that it is sensing.
 
When the sensor detects a conducting metal, it sends out about 0.7 volts, not sure how many milliamps. With the background voltage in the green signal wire of 11.75 volts, the voltage then rises to 12.5 volts. 
 
All that said, when running the windlass I could never get the chain counter display to change from “00”. I was able to change the sensor output from normally open to normally closed with a relay, again without any success on the counter.
 
After my therapist advised me to take a break from the chain counter obsession, I then went on to rebuild the windlass, which is now completely disassembled. Nevertheless, I returned to the chain counter problem, hooking up the sensor directly to the wires above the sink. I used a steel box cutter knife to act as a target for the sensor, ran the windlass switch (even though no windlass), et voilà!!! The display ticks off once for every three times I pass the knife in front of the sensor, I assume three revolutions of the windlass equals one meter. That was without having to change the open/closed status with a relay.
 
So, the system does now work, not sure why it didn’t work with the actual windlass. A little more trouble-shooting ahead when I get the windlass back on deck. Seckin, and anyone else who is having problems, feel free to contact me off forum if needs be, I’m happy to help. 
 
Tom Peacock
SM #240 Aletes
Rock Hall, Chesapeake Bay

I’m not certain how many SM’s have a similar counter, our #240 was right on the cusp between SM and SM 2000, with features of both. It seems to be a LaRochelle designed counter, as the digital display has the Amel logo on it.
 
As mentioned, there are four cables coming into the junction box above the sink:
 
A 12.5 volts power from the Sailor 24V->12V transformer, two wires, straightforward power and ground; its sole function is power
 
A 24 volts power cable from the windlass control in the cockpit, three wires, one always 24 V, one ground, and one that is 24 V only when the windlass is activated; those wires then go to a block of three relays, which do something, I suspect in part activate the 12V part of the chain counter system, also perhaps convert the rotation of the windlass into meters)
 
A three wire cable going forward to the windlass, one with 12.5 volts power, one ground, and the other one being a green signal wire with 11.75 volts power (derived from the display cable)
 
A four wire cable going to the digital display, one with 12.5 volts feeding off the power cable, one with 11.75 volts returning from the display (which feeds power to the green signal wire going to the windlass), the other two being used for signal
 
As mentioned, I have replaced the original sensor (IB5076, made by IFM, no longer in production), with one that is TOTALLY identical in all specs, IB5072, except for the fact that it is normally open. The 5076 was normally closed. These are heavy duty inductive sensors, just detecting proximity to conductive metal, no magnet necessary. They are structurally robust, designed for use in pickle factories! It’s a German company, and the Germans do love their pickles. There is an LED on the unit that will indicate that it is sensing.
 
When the sensor detects a conducting metal, it sends out about 0.7 volts, not sure how many milliamps. With the background voltage in the green signal wire of 11.75 volts, the voltage then rises to 12.5 volts. 
 
All that said, when running the windlass I could never get the chain counter display to change from “00”. I was able to change the sensor output from normally open to normally closed with a relay, again without any success on the counter.
 
After my therapist advised me to take a break from the chain counter obsession, I then went on to rebuild the windlass, which is now completely disassembled. Nevertheless, I returned to the chain counter problem, hooking up the sensor directly to the wires above the sink. I used a steel box cutter knife to act as a target for the sensor, ran the windlass switch (even though no windlass), et voilà!!! The display ticks off once for every three times I pass the knife in front of the sensor, I assume three revolutions of the windlass equals one meter. That was without having to change the open/closed status with a relay.
 
So, the system does now work, not sure why it didn’t work with the actual windlass. A little more trouble-shooting ahead when I get the windlass back on deck. Seckin, and anyone else who is having problems, feel free to contact me off forum if needs be, I’m happy to help. 
 
Tom Peacock
SM #240 Aletes
Rock Hall, Chesapeake Bay
 
 
 
 


Re: SM Climma AC - Calpeda Pump Voltage with Breakers Off

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Dan et al,

Anyone who works on 240 volt circuits without turning of the power at the mains switch is living dangerously.(temporally)  These currents are lethal. Likewise I wouldn't work on them with the gen set running

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 28 April 2019 at 02:14 Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:

Hi Gary,
I am on BeBe at Red Frog Marina in Panama wit 60Hz shore power.  I just checked, with all the AC breakers off but  the main GFI on, and I have: 1)  120v from blue to yellow/green, as well as from brown to the yellow/green. 2) I show 0 volts AC accross the blue to brown contacts (I don't understand how you could measure 240 v across the Blue to brown when the motor is not running?). 3) when I turn of the main GFI breaker there is no voltage.    I did not test the generator.  

That is a shocking discovery!  It would be very interesting to get confirmation of the voltages from a boat on 50 Hz supply. 

One thought: Could the stray voltage be coming back from the capacitor.  It shows 0 across the Blue to brow because the voltage on the blue and brown are on the same cycle when there is only one 120v source?  To test this I disconnected the blue and brown wires and measured the voltage of these independently: Blue wire to yellow/green was 120v, Brown wire to yellow/green showed 39v (Stray voltage?).  The voltage across the Blue to Brown was 120v.

I'm surprised this has not come up before, as it creates a very unsafe condition for one assuming the circuit is de-energized.  My conclusion is to disconnect at the pedistal when working on the AC circuits to be safe.

Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387




On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:37 PM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver= mac.com@groups.io wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Hi Bill and Eric:

Yes, all the 220 panel CBs are double pole (both Line [brown] and Neutral [Blue] are switched).  With all breakers open (tripped) there is still 240 VAC across the blue and brown leads at the Calpeda Pump when hooked to shore power, but not when the genset is running.  Looking at the Climma schematic (really more of a diagram) the neutral and safety ground wires are wire straight thru from the "separate source" and the Line [brown] from the separate source is switched by the relays to provide line voltage to the pump when a given unit is switched on. So I can see perhaps that there might be 110 voltage between the blue and safety ground at the pump from this "seperate source" but not the 220 that I am seeing.  Olivier, are you there?   What is the separate source for the Climma relay box?

I believe that the "other source" supply for the relay box is directly wired from the 220 volt buss just down-stream from the GFCI 30 amp breaker on the side of the 220 volt panel before it is distributed to any of the CBs (Diruptors).  The difference between Euro power and US power is noted and somehow plays into this.   Will continue to puzzle this out along with you.  Perhaps I need to get to sail to some European power, plug in and see if the mystery voltage goes away.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
Puerto Rico 

 

 


Re: SM Climma AC - Calpeda Pump Voltage with Breakers Off

Porter McRoberts
 

Not to confuse things but to add to the conversation. Mine is also live with the AC off on the 230v panel. We traced it to the generator/shore power switch. I wear rubber gloves when dealing with the pump capacitor as remarkably it took two good shocks for me to learn my lesson. 

I think you’d have to have double wiring to each ac unit as well as the pump. A lot of current for each switch?  I thought about putting in a relay and contrasted that with the ease of glove wearing. 


Porter
A54-152. 

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Apr 27, 2019, at 8:04 AM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Dan,

I am a little lost as to where exactly you are measuring the voltage, but will generally respond.

Sounds to me like you could have 120v on the Earth wire (yellow/green) because you show zero between brown and blue. 
Causes:
  • This could be caused by shore power cable/plug wired incorrectly. I have seen the Earth wire (yellow/green) connected to the center post of a USA plug rather than to the metal sleeve of the plug. 
  • I have also seen marina pedestals wired wrong placing voltage on Earth wire (yellow/green
  • I have also seen this happen when using a pedestal shared with another boat which is wired wrong. 
I would trace starting with the pedestal connection.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 12:14 PM Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
Hi Gary,
I am on BeBe at Red Frog Marina in Panama wit 60Hz shore power.  I just checked, with all the AC breakers off but  the main GFI on, and I have: 1)  120v from blue to yellow/green, as well as from brown to the yellow/green. 2) I show 0 volts AC accross the blue to brown contacts (I don't understand how you could measure 240 v across the Blue to brown when the motor is not running?). 3) when I turn of the main GFI breaker there is no voltage.    I did not test the generator.  

That is a shocking discovery!  It would be very interesting to get confirmation of the voltages from a boat on 50 Hz supply. 

One thought: Could the stray voltage be coming back from the capacitor.  It shows 0 across the Blue to brow because the voltage on the blue and brown are on the same cycle when there is only one 120v source?  To test this I disconnected the blue and brown wires and measured the voltage of these independently: Blue wire to yellow/green was 120v, Brown wire to yellow/green showed 39v (Stray voltage?).  The voltage across the Blue to Brown was 120v.

I'm surprised this has not come up before, as it creates a very unsafe condition for one assuming the circuit is de-energized.  My conclusion is to disconnect at the pedistal when working on the AC circuits to be safe.

Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387




On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:37 PM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver=mac.com@groups.io wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Hi Bill and Eric:

Yes, all the 220 panel CBs are double pole (both Line [brown] and Neutral [Blue] are switched).  With all breakers open (tripped) there is still 240 VAC across the blue and brown leads at the Calpeda Pump when hooked to shore power, but not when the genset is running.  Looking at the Climma schematic (really more of a diagram) the neutral and safety ground wires are wire straight thru from the "separate source" and the Line [brown] from the separate source is switched by the relays to provide line voltage to the pump when a given unit is switched on. So I can see perhaps that there might be 110 voltage between the blue and safety ground at the pump from this "seperate source" but not the 220 that I am seeing.  Olivier, are you there?   What is the separate source for the Climma relay box?

I believe that the "other source" supply for the relay box is directly wired from the 220 volt buss just down-stream from the GFCI 30 amp breaker on the side of the 220 volt panel before it is distributed to any of the CBs (Diruptors).  The difference between Euro power and US power is noted and somehow plays into this.   Will continue to puzzle this out along with you.  Perhaps I need to get to sail to some European power, plug in and see if the mystery voltage goes away.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
Puerto Rico 


Re: Sailing north to Annapolis

Wolfgang Weber
 

Thank you all very much for your help
Wolfgang Weber SY Elise Amel 54 #162




Dr. med. Wolfgang Weber
Lenaustr. 2 45657 Recklinghausen Germany
Telefon +49 2361 182005 FAX + 49 2361 182006


Re: SM Climma AC - Calpeda Pump Voltage with Breakers Off

 

Dan,

I am a little lost as to where exactly you are measuring the voltage, but will generally respond.

Sounds to me like you could have 120v on the Earth wire (yellow/green) because you show zero between brown and blue. 
Causes:
  • This could be caused by shore power cable/plug wired incorrectly. I have seen the Earth wire (yellow/green) connected to the center post of a USA plug rather than to the metal sleeve of the plug. 
  • I have also seen marina pedestals wired wrong placing voltage on Earth wire (yellow/green
  • I have also seen this happen when using a pedestal shared with another boat which is wired wrong. 
I would trace starting with the pedestal connection.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 12:14 PM Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
Hi Gary,
I am on BeBe at Red Frog Marina in Panama wit 60Hz shore power.  I just checked, with all the AC breakers off but  the main GFI on, and I have: 1)  120v from blue to yellow/green, as well as from brown to the yellow/green. 2) I show 0 volts AC accross the blue to brown contacts (I don't understand how you could measure 240 v across the Blue to brown when the motor is not running?). 3) when I turn of the main GFI breaker there is no voltage.    I did not test the generator.  

That is a shocking discovery!  It would be very interesting to get confirmation of the voltages from a boat on 50 Hz supply. 

One thought: Could the stray voltage be coming back from the capacitor.  It shows 0 across the Blue to brow because the voltage on the blue and brown are on the same cycle when there is only one 120v source?  To test this I disconnected the blue and brown wires and measured the voltage of these independently: Blue wire to yellow/green was 120v, Brown wire to yellow/green showed 39v (Stray voltage?).  The voltage across the Blue to Brown was 120v.

I'm surprised this has not come up before, as it creates a very unsafe condition for one assuming the circuit is de-energized.  My conclusion is to disconnect at the pedistal when working on the AC circuits to be safe.

Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387




On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:37 PM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver=mac.com@groups.io wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Hi Bill and Eric:

Yes, all the 220 panel CBs are double pole (both Line [brown] and Neutral [Blue] are switched).  With all breakers open (tripped) there is still 240 VAC across the blue and brown leads at the Calpeda Pump when hooked to shore power, but not when the genset is running.  Looking at the Climma schematic (really more of a diagram) the neutral and safety ground wires are wire straight thru from the "separate source" and the Line [brown] from the separate source is switched by the relays to provide line voltage to the pump when a given unit is switched on. So I can see perhaps that there might be 110 voltage between the blue and safety ground at the pump from this "seperate source" but not the 220 that I am seeing.  Olivier, are you there?   What is the separate source for the Climma relay box?

I believe that the "other source" supply for the relay box is directly wired from the 220 volt buss just down-stream from the GFCI 30 amp breaker on the side of the 220 volt panel before it is distributed to any of the CBs (Diruptors).  The difference between Euro power and US power is noted and somehow plays into this.   Will continue to puzzle this out along with you.  Perhaps I need to get to sail to some European power, plug in and see if the mystery voltage goes away.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
Puerto Rico 


SM Chain Counter Update

Thomas Peacock
 

Thanks to Ian, Seckin, Kelly and Ryan for your thoughts. I feel like I could declare Chain Counters as a thesis topic towards a PhD after the number of hours I have spent on this. I never considered myself obsessive before sailing this boat, it seems to be bringing that out in me. 
I’m not certain how many SM’s have a similar counter, our #240 was right on the cusp between SM and SM 2000, with features of both. It seems to be a LaRochelle designed counter, as the digital display has the Amel logo on it.
 
As mentioned, there are four cables coming into the junction box above the sink:
 
A 12.5 volts power from the Sailor 24V->12V transformer, two wires, straightforward power and ground; its sole function is power
 
A 24 volts power cable from the windlass control in the cockpit, three wires, one always 24 V, one ground, and one that is 24 V only when the windlass is activated; those wires then go to a block of three relays, which do something, I suspect in part activate the 12V part of the chain counter system, also perhaps convert the rotation of the windlass into meters
 
A three wire cable going forward to the windlass, one with 12.5 volts power, one ground, and the other one being a green signal wire with 11.75 volts power (derived from the display cable)
 
A four wire cable going to the digital display, one with 12.5 volts feeding off the power cable, one with 11.75 volts returning from the display (which feeds power to the green signal wire going to the windlass), the other two being used for signal
 
As mentioned, I have replaced the original sensor (IB5076, made by IFM, no longer in production), with one that is TOTALLY identical in all specs, IB5072, except for the fact that it is normally open. The 5076 was normally closed. These are heavy duty inductive sensors, just detecting proximity to conductive metal, no magnet necessary. They are structurally robust, designed for use in pickle factories! It’s a German company, and the Germans do love their pickles. There is an LED on the unit that will indicate that it is sensing.
 
When the sensor detects a conducting metal, it sends out about 0.7 volts, not sure how many milliamps. With the background voltage in the green signal wire of 11.75 volts, the voltage then rises to 12.5 volts. 
 
All that said, when running the windlass I could never get the chain counter display to change from “00”. I was able to change the sensor output from normally open to normally closed with a relay, again without any success on the counter.
 
After my therapist advised me to take a break from the chain counter obsession, I then went on to rebuild the windlass, which is now completely disassembled. Nevertheless, I returned to the chain counter problem, hooking up the sensor directly to the wires above the sink. I used a steel box cutter knife to act as a target for the sensor, ran the windlass switch (even though no windlass), et voilà!!! The display ticks off once for every three times I pass the knife in front of the sensor, I assume three revolutions of the windlass equals one meter. That was without having to change the open/closed status with a relay.
 
So, the system does now work, not sure why it didn’t work with the actual windlass. A little more trouble-shooting ahead when I get the windlass back on deck. Seckin, and anyone else who is having problems, feel free to contact me off forum if needs be, I’m happy to help. 
 
Tom Peacock
SM #240 Aletes
Rock Hall, Chesapeake Bay
 
I’m not certain how many SM’s have a similar counter, our #240 was right on the cusp between SM and SM 2000, with features of both. It seems to be a LaRochelle designed counter, as the digital display has the Amel logo on it.
 
As mentioned, there are four cables coming into the junction box above the sink:
 
A 12.5 volts power from the Sailor 24V->12V transformer, two wires, straightforward power and ground; its sole function is power
 
A 24 volts power cable from the windlass control in the cockpit, three wires, one always 24 V, one ground, and one that is 24 V only when the windlass is activated; those wires then go to a block of three relays, which do something, I suspect in part activate the 12V part of the chain counter system, also perhaps convert the rotation of the windlass into meters)
 
A three wire cable going forward to the windlass, one with 12.5 volts power, one ground, and the other one being a green signal wire with 11.75 volts power (derived from the display cable)
 
A four wire cable going to the digital display, one with 12.5 volts feeding off the power cable, one with 11.75 volts returning from the display (which feeds power to the green signal wire going to the windlass), the other two being used for signal
 
As mentioned, I have replaced the original sensor (IB5076, made by IFM, no longer in production), with one that is TOTALLY identical in all specs, IB5072, except for the fact that it is normally open. The 5076 was normally closed. These are heavy duty inductive sensors, just detecting proximity to conductive metal, no magnet necessary. They are structurally robust, designed for use in pickle factories! It’s a German company, and the Germans do love their pickles. There is an LED on the unit that will indicate that it is sensing.
 
When the sensor detects a conducting metal, it sends out about 0.7 volts, not sure how many milliamps. With the background voltage in the green signal wire of 11.75 volts, the voltage then rises to 12.5 volts. 
 
All that said, when running the windlass I could never get the chain counter display to change from “00”. I was able to change the sensor output from normally open to normally closed with a relay, again without any success on the counter.
 
After my therapist advised me to take a break from the chain counter obsession, I then went on to rebuild the windlass, which is now completely disassembled. Nevertheless, I returned to the chain counter problem, hooking up the sensor directly to the wires above the sink. I used a steel box cutter knife to act as a target for the sensor, ran the windlass switch (even though no windlass), et voilà!!! The display ticks off once for every three times I pass the knife in front of the sensor, I assume three revolutions of the windlass equals one meter. That was without having to change the open/closed status with a relay.
 
So, the system does now work, not sure why it didn’t work with the actual windlass. A little more trouble-shooting ahead when I get the windlass back on deck. Seckin, and anyone else who is having problems, feel free to contact me off forum if needs be, I’m happy to help. 
 
Tom Peacock
SM #240 Aletes
Rock Hall, Chesapeake Bay

I’m not certain how many SM’s have a similar counter, our #240 was right on the cusp between SM and SM 2000, with features of both. It seems to be a LaRochelle designed counter, as the digital display has the Amel logo on it.
 
As mentioned, there are four cables coming into the junction box above the sink:
 
A 12.5 volts power from the Sailor 24V->12V transformer, two wires, straightforward power and ground; its sole function is power
 
A 24 volts power cable from the windlass control in the cockpit, three wires, one always 24 V, one ground, and one that is 24 V only when the windlass is activated; those wires then go to a block of three relays, which do something, I suspect in part activate the 12V part of the chain counter system, also perhaps convert the rotation of the windlass into meters)
 
A three wire cable going forward to the windlass, one with 12.5 volts power, one ground, and the other one being a green signal wire with 11.75 volts power (derived from the display cable)
 
A four wire cable going to the digital display, one with 12.5 volts feeding off the power cable, one with 11.75 volts returning from the display (which feeds power to the green signal wire going to the windlass), the other two being used for signal
 
As mentioned, I have replaced the original sensor (IB5076, made by IFM, no longer in production), with one that is TOTALLY identical in all specs, IB5072, except for the fact that it is normally open. The 5076 was normally closed. These are heavy duty inductive sensors, just detecting proximity to conductive metal, no magnet necessary. They are structurally robust, designed for use in pickle factories! It’s a German company, and the Germans do love their pickles. There is an LED on the unit that will indicate that it is sensing.
 
When the sensor detects a conducting metal, it sends out about 0.7 volts, not sure how many milliamps. With the background voltage in the green signal wire of 11.75 volts, the voltage then rises to 12.5 volts. 
 
All that said, when running the windlass I could never get the chain counter display to change from “00”. I was able to change the sensor output from normally open to normally closed with a relay, again without any success on the counter.
 
After my therapist advised me to take a break from the chain counter obsession, I then went on to rebuild the windlass, which is now completely disassembled. Nevertheless, I returned to the chain counter problem, hooking up the sensor directly to the wires above the sink. I used a steel box cutter knife to act as a target for the sensor, ran the windlass switch (even though no windlass), et voilà!!! The display ticks off once for every three times I pass the knife in front of the sensor, I assume three revolutions of the windlass equals one meter. That was without having to change the open/closed status with a relay.
 
So, the system does now work, not sure why it didn’t work with the actual windlass. A little more trouble-shooting ahead when I get the windlass back on deck. Seckin, and anyone else who is having problems, feel free to contact me off forum if needs be, I’m happy to help. 
 
Tom Peacock
SM #240 Aletes
Rock Hall, Chesapeake Bay
 
 
 
 


Re: Sailing north to Annapolis

Mark Erdos
 

Fernandina Beach FL

Cumberland Island GA (National Park)

Charleston SC

Beaufort NC (a good spot to wait for a window to get around Cape Hateras)

Hampton VA (inside the Chesapeake Bay)

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - San Blas Islands, Panama

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Wolfgang Weber via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2019 9:48 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Sailing north to Annapolis

 

Hi to the group,
After sailing the Bahamas I am on the way to the north. I will leave the boat for 2 months in Annapolis.Today we sailed from Fort Lauderdale to St. Augustine. Are there any recommendations for the next stops - Marina or Anchorage ?
Thank you very much Wolfgang SY Elise Amel 54 #162 


Re: SM Climma AC - Calpeda Pump Voltage with Breakers Off

Dan Carlson
 

Hi Gary,
I am on BeBe at Red Frog Marina in Panama wit 60Hz shore power.  I just checked, with all the AC breakers off but  the main GFI on, and I have: 1)  120v from blue to yellow/green, as well as from brown to the yellow/green. 2) I show 0 volts AC accross the blue to brown contacts (I don't understand how you could measure 240 v across the Blue to brown when the motor is not running?). 3) when I turn of the main GFI breaker there is no voltage.    I did not test the generator.  

That is a shocking discovery!  It would be very interesting to get confirmation of the voltages from a boat on 50 Hz supply. 

One thought: Could the stray voltage be coming back from the capacitor.  It shows 0 across the Blue to brow because the voltage on the blue and brown are on the same cycle when there is only one 120v source?  To test this I disconnected the blue and brown wires and measured the voltage of these independently: Blue wire to yellow/green was 120v, Brown wire to yellow/green showed 39v (Stray voltage?).  The voltage across the Blue to Brown was 120v.

I'm surprised this has not come up before, as it creates a very unsafe condition for one assuming the circuit is de-energized.  My conclusion is to disconnect at the pedistal when working on the AC circuits to be safe.

Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387




On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:37 PM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver=mac.com@groups.io wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Hi Bill and Eric:

Yes, all the 220 panel CBs are double pole (both Line [brown] and Neutral [Blue] are switched).  With all breakers open (tripped) there is still 240 VAC across the blue and brown leads at the Calpeda Pump when hooked to shore power, but not when the genset is running.  Looking at the Climma schematic (really more of a diagram) the neutral and safety ground wires are wire straight thru from the "separate source" and the Line [brown] from the separate source is switched by the relays to provide line voltage to the pump when a given unit is switched on. So I can see perhaps that there might be 110 voltage between the blue and safety ground at the pump from this "seperate source" but not the 220 that I am seeing.  Olivier, are you there?   What is the separate source for the Climma relay box?

I believe that the "other source" supply for the relay box is directly wired from the 220 volt buss just down-stream from the GFCI 30 amp breaker on the side of the 220 volt panel before it is distributed to any of the CBs (Diruptors).  The difference between Euro power and US power is noted and somehow plays into this.   Will continue to puzzle this out along with you.  Perhaps I need to get to sail to some European power, plug in and see if the mystery voltage goes away.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
Puerto Rico 


Connecting wind data to AP

ngtnewington Newington
 

Eureka sailing to wind. Only problem now is that it’s 20-25 kn true but laying Funchal for now.
Nick
Amelia
AML54 -019 on passage towards Madeira


Interior wood

Joerg Esdorn
 

Hi, I have the light colored oak interior on my boat and am wondering whether to treat the wood in some way.  There are some corners where a bit of dirt has accumulated.  Any suggestions would be most welcome.  

Joerg Esdorn
A55 #53 Kincsem 


Re: Sailing north to Annapolis

Courtney Gorman
 

Brunswick Landing Marina in Brunswick GA 
Cheers 🍻 


On Apr 26, 2019, at 9:47 PM, Wolfgang Weber via Groups.Io <webercardio@...> wrote:

Hi to the group,
After sailing the Bahamas I am on the way to the north. I will leave the boat for 2 months in Annapolis.Today we sailed from Fort Lauderdale to St. Augustine. Are there any recommendations for the next stops - Marina or Anchorage ?
Thank you very much Wolfgang SY Elise Amel 54 #162 


SM Fairlead

Keith Tice
 

My SM2K stern fairleads need to be replaced.
Amel no longer offers this part.
The port fairlead is warped and the starboard fairlead was replaced by the previous owner, but the replacement fairlead is biting into the 20mm mooring lines.
I have been unable to locate a fairlead as large and smooth as the original fairleads fitted by Amel.
The previous owner told me that Amel switched to roller fairleads, but that they do not fit the available space on the SM2K.

Keith Tice
Bikini - SM2K #282


Sailing north to Annapolis

Wolfgang Weber
 

Hi to the group,
After sailing the Bahamas I am on the way to the north. I will leave the boat for 2 months in Annapolis.Today we sailed from Fort Lauderdale to St. Augustine. Are there any recommendations for the next stops - Marina or Anchorage ?
Thank you very much Wolfgang SY Elise Amel 54 #162 


Re: Changing engine bearings Amel Mango Perkins 4.236

Arlo
 

If you can forward the contact details and what you nwed to order ro me plwaae it would help me out a lot. This is a project on my list as well to do soon.
Thanks Arlo
1985 Mango
Seaduction