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Wintering in potentially freezing conditions, watermaker?
Hi folks,
We will be wintering ashore this year at Ardrossan, Scotland where there is a possibility of subzero temperatures and I intend to take measures to combat possible damage due to freezing. I’ve never wintered in such conditions, so it’s a new process for me. I’m comfortable with the obvious stuff like empty water tanks, drain lines, anti-freeze in engine/gen raw water coolant lines etc. One area that is puzzling me a little is the watermaker system. I’m thinking about some kind of non-toxic antifreeze solution? What do others with such potentially sub-zero wintering conditions do with their watermakers? Many thanks Dean SY Stella A54-154 Islay
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Re: Amel is going lithium
Mohammad Shirloo
Thanks Scott;
We do use LIPO, LI-ION and LiFEpo4 in our hobby and am familiar with the safety vs. energy storage, weight, # of cycles differences. I agree that that LiFepo4 would be the safest choice out of the group and most likely provide the highest number of cycles. It is probably the heaviest of the group, which would not be an issue on a displacement cruising yacht.
I look forward to your findings and opinion. We just replaced our AGM batteries last year and will most likely try to go Lithium for our next bank switch over which hopefully will not be for another 3 years plus. I would assume that would be plenty of time for the industry to work out any bugs in the system and technology, as applies to cruising yachts.
Respectfully;
Mohammad and Aty B&B Kokomo Amel 54 #099
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Scott SV Tengah via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2019 1:59 AM To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel is going lithium
Mohammad,
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Re: Amel is going lithium
Scott SV Tengah
Mohammad,
Both Victron, which I have and Mastervolt use lifepo4 chemistry, a much safer (but less energy dense) technology than the lithium ion that is more common. I don't know much about RC planes, but I assume for weight, they'd go with the lithium ion, which is far more prone to catching fire and when they do have thermal runaway, burn much hotter and are likely to ignite adjacent cells. I'll write about my thoughts on safety in a later post. I'm sure you know about the relative safety of lifepo4, but here's a FAA fire hazard analysis done on the various battery types as they are often used in real airplanes. I read this last year before I was contemplating adding lithium to my boat. Lifepo4 is shown to be safer than the other lithium chemistries. https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-16-17.pdf While safer, it's not without risk. Then again, neither is lead acid as I personally know the owner of an Amel who experienced an unexplained lead acid battery bank explosion. Luckily no one was sleeping on the passage berth at the time. -- Scott 2007 A54 #69 SV Tengah http://www.svtengah.com
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Re: Genoa car springs
Thanks Ken
My initial issue is to get the cotter pin out, the rod won't turn ...I'm going to have to destroy the pin and then try again Cheers Alan ELYSE SM437
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Re: Amel is going lithium
Mohammad Shirloo
Hi Scott;
Very impressive numbers. I am familiar the Lithium battery technology and all the benefits you mention, since we have been using it in giant scale radio control airplane models (Up to 60% scale) for years.
The one major issue with lithium that has prevented us from making the change to Lithium on Kokomo, has been safety. There have been many cases of these batteries burning down models as well as houses, when the fire happened to occur in the house.
In most cases the issue has been misuse or equipment failure, that has led to overcharge/discharge but some that seem to have been without any external input and not during usage As far as I have observed, , once the fire starts, it cannot be extinguished with standard firefighting equipment. It basically seems to need to burn itself out.
Do you know which lithium technology Mastervolt uses? (Lithium Polymer, ION, LIFE, or ?) Did you ever happen to address the safety and evaluate the hazards with this technology? What was your conclusion and how do you view the hazards associated with these batteries?
I would also be interested in seeing a picture of your solar setup, if you have one. Thanks for posting all the useful information and data.
Respectfully;
Mohammad and Aty B&B Kokomo Amel 54 #099
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Porter McRoberts via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 5:25 PM To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel is going lithium
Very interesting re serial vs parallel. I do find a big drop in production with shading, much better days if the wind keeps the solar pointed towards the sun. I’ll have to run a bit more wire to the mppt. I’ll try that in NZ and see what we get. Thanks for the suggestion!!
Appreciated
Porter A54-152
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Re: Dessslator HP hoses
Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
Eric,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Thank u very much for your help. This time it was faster for us to order from Dessalator France. 1 day delivery time only. We have been a bit in a hurry to get it working because we got visitors. I think it might be better to get pure SS fittings. The originals are mix brass and SS and i ran in some electrolysis problems. Not sure if its the material mix or something else? Thanks Oliver Vela Nautica A54#39 Portugal Sent from my Huawei Mobile
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Dessslator HP hoses From: eric freedman To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io CC:
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Re: Genoa car springs
Ken Powers SV Aquarius
I did this in one of my videos called "Booms and Running Rigging!
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Changes and what they cost" Not sure if you have the same car or not, but this is how I did mine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_XB5qfptqQ This is pretty much a step by step.... Some say that you should not cut the track, but I disagree. If done correctly, it will make it easy the next time you have to remove the car. Ken Powers Aquarius SM2K#262 Currently in Indonesia
On 8/5/19, Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@hotmail.com> wrote:
I need to replace the springs in one of my Antal genoa cars.
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Re: Shore power contactor burnt out
eric freedman
Hi, Thanks for the info. I don’t know what is available in Italy , however Amazon has a few. Fair Winds Eric Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Eamonn Washington
Hi
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Re: Amel is going lithium
Porter McRoberts
Very interesting re serial vs parallel. I do find a big drop in production with shading, much better days if the wind keeps the solar pointed towards the sun. I’ll have to run a bit more wire to the mppt. I’ll try that in NZ and see what we get. Thanks for the suggestion!!
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Appreciated
On Aug 6, 2019, at 2:18 PM, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:
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Re: Amel is going lithium
Scott SV Tengah
Porter,
I guess you mean far from the panels to the mppt? Maybe you can experiment with parallel to see if you get higher output. I believe parallel is better than serial when you have shading on some panels and not others. I have the 3 pairs of wires from the panels to a switch in the aft lazarette. Then one pair from the lazarette to the mppt which is behind the main switches in the passage berth. Of course the batteries are near there. Seems to be no problem with the distance as I'm getting up to 6500wh per day as you can see on the data I posted earlier. -- Scott 2007 A54 #69 SV Tengah http://www.svtengah.com
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Re: Amel is going lithium
Stephen Davis
Sorry....Wrong recipient!
On Aug 6, 2019, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Davis via Groups.Io <flyboyscd@...> wrote:
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Re: Amel is going lithium
Stephen Davis
Very cool...Hope I’m able to still do that when I’m 82. This is my cool ne airplane.
On Aug 6, 2019, at 9:11 AM, Paul Brown <feeder.brown@...> wrote:
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Re: Shore power contactor burnt out
Eamonn Washington
Hi
The aft lazarette shore power breaker is mounted in a plastic purpose made housing with just the breaker switches protruding. The manual transfer switch is housed in the original housing of the original contactor, after a little cutting. No, I was not able to source a galvanic isolator here but it is on my to-do list. What size galvanic isolator is required? With 20A breakers I suppose it makes no sense to go for a higher rated galvanic isolator for the earth connection. -- Eamonn Washington Travel Bug Super Maramu #151 Currently in Cagliari, Sardinia, Italy.
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Re: Amel is going lithium
Porter McRoberts
We run in series as it’s a bit far from the mppt 90v to the mppt
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On Aug 6, 2019, at 9:53 AM, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:
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Re: Amel is going lithium
Scott SV Tengah
Hanspeter,
Things must be lost in translation for both of us. My mind was blown when learning about lithium and after a year aboard with it, I can attest that many of the advantages are real. I'll complete that writeup soon and hopefully it will answer all your questions. My system isn't perfect and I'm hoping some of the shortcomings can be solved by the group's collective brainpower. -- Scott 2007 A54 #69 SV Tengah http://www.svtengah.com
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Re: Amel is going lithium
Scott SV Tengah
I am not familiar with the sizing on the Mastervolt inverter/chargers, but for Victron their 8000va model was too heavy for my piece of mind.
Agree with you on keeping the genset. I rarely run it but I'm happy we have it. It's not always sunny. :) -- Scott 2007 A54 #69 SV Tengah http://www.svtengah.com
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Re: Amel is going lithium
Scott SV Tengah
Porter,
You've astutely pointed out one of the major advantages of Lifepo4. Charging your lead (?) batteries between 80-100% maximizes their longevity but results in them having trouble accepting even mid-day full current from your panels. With lifepo4, it can accept full current until high 90s state of charge. As a corollary, we have 220v chargers that total 200amps. The batteries accept the full current up until 95-98% and that's why our genset runtime is so short. Add in the charging efficiency with only 3% lost through heat vs. 20%+ on lead and it makes a huge difference on both genset usage and solar charging efficiency. PS - are you running the 3 panels serial or parallel? If you aren't sure, you can check the voltages on the numerical data. -- Scott 2007 A54 #69 SV Tengah http://www.svtengah.com
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Re: Amel is going lithium
Hey Scott, thank you and I was figuring a 5000w inverter upgrade (Maybe a 7500w when available)to run all from 24v when possible, I too have a Bauer junior. I guess then genset is still a great reliable generation item and needed for those jobs, but’s it is great to live off batteries most of the time and look forward to the day when it’s easy.
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Nice sharing with you and thanks for the advice Regards Paul Fortuna II A55#17
On 6 Aug 2019, at 8:36 pm, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:
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Re: Amel is going lithium
hanspeter baettig
Scott
sorry You completely misunderstand me and I do not like your message towards me!Thats not the way we comunicate within this forum ! I only ask you how you can handel your battery capacity. I‘m an owner of a SM Nr.16 since 25 Years and I never heard from other Amel Owners, even not from Amel , what you ! can do with your Lithium Power Bank anyway fair winds and good luck Hanspeter SM16 Tamango 2 Trinidad ------ Original Nachricht ------ Am Dienstag, 6. Aug, 2019 um 18:20, Scott SV Tengah schrieb: Hanspeter, Given the tone of your message, I get the impression that you're quite argumentative. I'm not interested in getting into an internet urination contest, so I'll just provide data and verifiable facts for you. First, you are close to correct in the water maker calc. Yes, I make water on battery alone, generally with a fully charged battery. I am not on the boat now - damn hurricane season, but the manual tells me the 24v duo 100 motor draws 600watts. Lithium fully charged is 3.6 volts per cell and has a very small voltage drop on such a small load given my 450ah/24 bank. Even the windlass doesn't result in a huge voltage drop. People who have not used lithium are amazed when they see that. So we'll be conservative and use your 25 amps per hour. I average about 80l/hr from my Duo100. That's 11.25 hours to fill up an empty water tank. The Peukert effect is negligible on a lifepo4 battery, another surprise for many so 25*11.25 = 281.25AH. Given my battery bank is 450AH, the battery bank still has 60% left after making water for almost half a day. For the solar panels, I'll just attach the latest data output from my Victron solar charge controller. I use LG Neon2 320w panels x 3. Fair winds, -- Scott 2007 A54 #69 SV Tengah http://www.svtengah.com
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Re: Amel is going lithium
Porter McRoberts
Here’s the lithium difference: we also have about the same solar 3x LG315s. We’re in FP. Nice sunny days.
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Attached is our last month. We just can’t absorb the energy like a lithium, we go between 100 and 80% and run the generator about a half hour a day in average. See attachment
On Aug 6, 2019, at 6:31 AM, Paul Brown <feeder.brown@...> wrote:
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