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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Rivets for Head sail furling foil
eric freedman
Hi Gary, How long was it between the time that Amel installed the bolts and you had to tighten them again? I had mine done by them in November. Fair Winds Eric Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376
From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2018 11:36 AM To: amelyachtowners@... Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Rivets for Head sail furling foil
When I had my foil and forestay repaired at Amel Martinique they replaced the rivets with threaded bolts. I want to say 10mm They did install backing plates to reinforce the contact points. Tef-Gel and one additional tightening since then, but it has not loosened due to flex and there i no corrosion to date.
Gary W s/v Adagio sm209 Mykonos
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Rivets for Head sail furling foil
James Alton
Kent,
I did not finish my research since it sounded like the 1/4” rivets might work for me so I did not source the oversized rivets. I found some 1/4” (.255 OD) all Aluminum (alloy 5062 for the rivet body, the mandrel however is 7075) structural rivets at Fastenal with a higher shear strength (1300 lbs. min versus about 460) than the more common ones found at Marine stores and have those on order. I will do some testing before using them on the boat. I have some concerns about the 7075 mandrel. https://www.fastenal.com/content/product_specifications/RV.BH.STR.ALUM.ALUM.12.pdf here is what I found about the removal tool and the oversize rivets: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/blindriv-03368.php?gclid=CjwKCAjw8r_XBRBkEiwAjWGLlBw55R9AfK9CIBNdnctbjqnRXO0EhkLEySwouXE4xJNkxmfVTx7QchoCIX4QAvD_BwE Rivet removal tool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNq7EEAvvlA Video of using the Rivet removal tool http://www.cherryaerospace.com/product/blindrivets Mention of 1/64” oversize rivets
James SV Sueño Maramu #220
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Rivets for Head sail furling foil
Interesting, thanks. Where did you find the oversized rivers and removal tool?
Kent SM 243 KRISTY
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Rivets for Head sail furling foil
VLADIMIR SONSEV
James, Do you know where can I buy 9/32" diameter rivets? VLADIMIR SM 345 "LIFE IS GOOD"
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Auto Prop Bearings
Hi Bill K,
Yes I did Google the catalog and noticed the same. I did not see an option without X/Q. Hence the question to the group to see if someone could verify from a package purchased from AB-Marine or Bruntons.
With best regards,
Mark
Skipper Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275 Currently cruising - Bonaire www.creampuff.us
From:
amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
In the SKF catalog, the 32004 bearing is only listed with the X/Q suffix. In the SKF numbering system a suffix like "X" or "Q" is not used as modifiers to a base part number, but rather give some information about the design standards and service loads for that model.
"X" means the dimensions are ISO complient, and "Q" means "optimized contact geometry and surface finish"
There are no versions of this part number without the X/Q suffix in the current catalog.
Bill Kinney SM160, Harmonie Spanish Wells, Bahamas
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] SM Prop Shaft Seal direction and Bush*** IMPORTANT RESPONSE***
Bill,
Well said. We have followed the guidelines posted by you and have never had an issue with any intrusion of water or leakage of oil. It is an easy process to follow. We have always purchased parts for this from Amel. As you say, to replace the drive would be costly. Why risk it.
With best regards,
Mark
Skipper Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275 Currently cruising - Bonaire www.creampuff.us
From: amelyachtowners@...
[mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Monday, May 7, 2018 3:59 PM To: amelyachtowners@... Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] SM Prop Shaft Seal direction and Bush*** IMPORTANT RESPONSE***
Jose, I really appreciate all of your participation in this Group. Thank you very much.
My following response is not intended to be an argument to you, but, it is intended to give those people in the Group who are "new-to-Amel" the reasons NOT to follow your advice. Remember there are a number of things that can go wrong with the installation of the wear bushing and seals. I am absolutely positive that changing the seal orientation from what Amel recommends was NOT the reason for your changing results.
Let's make this simple: What is more important? Oil leaking out, or water leaking in? The answer to the question is obviously oil leaking out, and that is probably the reason Amel recommends a redundancy of seals (2 instead of 1 to hold oil in) to protect your 35,000 euro C-Drive from melt down because of no oil.
To not service a 35,000 euro C-Drive for 8 years (4 times the manufacturers recommended service interval) is not a RISK that I would take and is one that I do not recommend any of my clients taking. Afterall, you are going to haulout every 2 years anyway, why try to save a few hundred euro and risk 35,000 euro?
Let me share with you a summary of a page in my Amel School Book:
Amel has stuck with the same C Drive Bushing, seals and procedures for over 25 years and today recommends the same procedures in new 55s and 64s, which have the same wear bushing and seals. The only change Amel has recommended is the change to 80/90 gear oil. I know for a fact that Amel has experimented with several options and may be close to making a change to the wear bushing which may give it a longer life. But, I assume rather than busing wear with a harder bushing the seal will wear. This may be an insurmountable issue because with a very hard bushing good seals will eventually leak because they wear rather than the bushing.
Best,
CW Bill Rouse
On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 11:47 AM, jvenegas@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
I want to report my experience with the shaft seals and bushing. When I bought my SM2000 278, It had its seal and bushing replaced and the seals oriented as recommended by AMEL. In less than 2 seasons it was leaking water into the oil and I replaced it again in that spring finding substantial wear in the bushing, as you will see in the pix I have uploaded in face book. After trying again the same scheme and less than two years later, as we were returning from Cartagena to Florida, just before reaching the windward passage between Cuba and Española, the transmission oil showed again the dreaded white color and I had to sail with no wind around the eastern tip of Cuba. In Fort Lauderdale, I decided to experiment with the shaft seals direction based on my Mechanical Engineering background: single lip seals are designed to prevent fluid from crossing the seal in only one direction; Fluid from the side facing the lip apply a pressure on the lip and it that prevents it from crossing to the other side. Fluid coming from the other side can expand the lip and move across. This motion of the fluid is helpful as it serves to lubricate the surface of contact between the seal and the shaft. Based on this idea I realized that having the two inner seals facing in prevented oil leaving and to outer seal facing out prevented water coming in. As a result, none of the seals is lubricated and as the grease is worn out the outer seal will start leaking water in, which is not prevented to get into the transmission by the two inner seals. The heavy wear and corrosion can be seen in the bushing surface of the outer seal. So, even if the two inner seals are still viable they will not prevent water entry into the transmission. My solution was to have the outer seal lip face into the transmission, preventing oil from leaving but allowing water to lubricate it. Also, the two inner seals were oriented with the lip facing the shaft, preventing water from entering the transmission but allowing oil to move and lubricate them. After 5 years of use, I noticed a small amount of oil loss ( < 2 cm drop in the tank) which I replaced with a heavier gear oil that completely stopped the oil loss. Last week I decided to replace the seals and bushings. I noticed that the oil was perfectly clean and the two inner seals and corresponding bushing surfaces were intact but, as expected some wear was present in the outer bushing surface. My guess is that with the heavier oil the outer lip began to work again, this time allowing a small amount of oil lubricating it.
Since after the outer lip function deteriorates the oil loss is very gradual and can be easily replaced with heavier oil, my recommendation is that the two inner seal lips should face the prop and the outer seal face the transmission. Based on the wear pattern and total lack of wear in the inner seal I estimate that the seal/bushing system would have worked preventing water entrance into the transmission for another two or 3 years. So my next experiment is to only replace the seals 8 years from now unless I begin to see a drop in oil level which is not fixed with heavier oil which I will report immediately.
Jose Venegas Ipanema SM2k 278
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] SM Prop Shaft Seal direction and Bush*** IMPORTANT RESPONSE***
pjn.mccallin@...
I have to agree absolutely with Bill Rouse.
The drawings that were supplied by AMEL when I bought CARAMELLE new show quite clearly the two innermost lip seals with their stainless steel springs facing the oil, the third seal faces the propeller. Interestingly enough AMEL also show an alternative of just two seals 45x65x12 rather than 45x65x8, this could perhaps prolong the life of the bearing as the wear groove will be in a different location. Just a thought. Food for thought? Patrick #385.
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] SM Prop Shaft Seal direction and Bush*** IMPORTANT RESPONSE***
Jose, I really appreciate all of your participation in this Group. Thank you very much. My following response is not intended to be an argument to you, but, it is intended to give those people in the Group who are "new-to-Amel" the reasons NOT to follow your advice. Remember there are a number of things that can go wrong with the installation of the wear bushing and seals. I am absolutely positive that changing the seal orientation from what Amel recommends was NOT the reason for your changing results. Let's make this simple: What is more important? Oil leaking out, or water leaking in? The answer to the question is obviously oil leaking out, and that is probably the reason Amel recommends a redundancy of seals (2 instead of 1 to hold oil in) to protect your 35,000 euro C-Drive from melt down because of no oil. To not service a 35,000 euro C-Drive for 8 years (4 times the manufacturers recommended service interval) is not a RISK that I would take and is one that I do not recommend any of my clients taking. Afterall, you are going to haulout every 2 years anyway, why try to save a few hundred euro and risk 35,000 euro? Let me share with you a summary of a page in my Amel School Book:
Amel has stuck with the same C Drive Bushing, seals and procedures for over 25 years and today recommends the same procedures in new 55s and 64s, which have the same wear bushing and seals. The only change Amel has recommended is the change to 80/90 gear oil. I know for a fact that Amel has experimented with several options and may be close to making a change to the wear bushing which may give it a longer life. But, I assume rather than busing wear with a harder bushing the seal will wear. This may be an insurmountable issue because with a very hard bushing good seals will eventually leak because they wear rather than the bushing. Best, CW Bill Rouse Admiral, Texas Navy Commander Emeritus Amel School http://www.amelschool.com 720 Winnie St Galveston Island, TX 77550 +1(832) 380-4970 On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 11:47 AM, jvenegas@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Charging / Discharging issue
Ryan Meador
Hi Olaf, How were you measuring the battery capacity? Are you using a built-in battery monitor? I wonder if there could be something wrong with that. What did it show for the charge current when you were running the 100A charger? What about the charge current when the solar and wind were going? What was the current draw from your electronics? Are you sure all of the batteries are connected? Check the connections, and also check any battery terminal fuses that may be installed. It would be worth a sanity check with a multimeter to verify the voltage at the battery bank is what the monitor claims (and you can also use this voltage with some tables you'll find online to estimate the state of charge, if there is no load/charger on the bank when you took the measurement). You can also use your multimeter to measure the voltage across the shunt resistor used by the battery monitor; with the shunt's resistance (should be printed on it) and Ohm's law you can verify the current flow. Ryan
SM 233 Iteration Boston, MA, USA
On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 10:59 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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SM Prop Shaft Seal direction and Bush
Jose Venegas
I want to report my experience with the shaft seals and bushing.
When I bought my SM2000 278, It had its seal and bushing replaced and the seals oriented as recommended by AMEL. In less than 2 seasons it was leaking water into the oil and I replaced it again in that spring finding substantial wear in the bushing, as you will see in the pix I have uploaded in face book. After trying again the same scheme and less than two years later, as we were returning from Cartagena to Florida, just before reaching the windward passage between Cuba and Española, the transmission oil showed again the dreaded white color and I had to sail with no wind around the eastern tip of Cuba. In Fort Lauderdale, I decided to experiment with the shaft seals direction based on my Mechanical Engineering background: single lip seals are designed to prevent fluid from crossing the seal in only one direction; Fluid from the side facing the lip apply a pressure on the lip and it that prevents it from crossing to the other side. Fluid coming from the other side can expand the lip and move across. This motion of the fluid is helpful as it serves to lubricate the surface of contact between the seal and the shaft. Based on this idea I realized that having the two inner seals facing in prevented oil leaving and to outer seal facing out prevented water coming in. As a result, none of the seals is lubricated and as the grease is worn out the outer seal will start leaking water in, which is not prevented to get into the transmission by the two inner seals. The heavy wear and corrosion can be seen in the bushing surface of the outer seal. So, even if the two inner seals are still viable they will not prevent water entry into the transmission. My solution was to have the outer seal lip face into the transmission, preventing oil from leaving but allowing water to lubricate it. Also, the two inner seals were oriented with the lip facing the shaft, preventing water from entering the transmission but allowing oil to move and lubricate them. After 5 years of use, I noticed a small amount of oil loss ( < 2 cm drop in the tank) which I replaced with a heavier gear oil that completely stopped the oil loss. Last week I decided to replace the seals and bushings. I noticed that the oil was perfectly clean and the two inner seals and corresponding bushing surfaces were intact but, as expected some wear was present in the outer bushing surface. My guess is that with the heavier oil the outer lip began to work again, this time allowing a small amount of oil lubricating it. Since after the outer lip function deteriorates the oil loss is very gradual and can be easily replaced with heavier oil, my recommendation is that the two inner seal lips should face the prop and the outer seal face the transmission. Based on the wear pattern and total lack of wear in the inner seal I estimate that the seal/bushing system would have worked preventing water entrance into the transmission for another two or 3 years. So my next experiment is to only replace the seals 8 years from now unless I begin to see a drop in oil level which is not fixed with heavier oil which I will report immediately. Jose Venegas Ipanema SM2k 278
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Re: Rivets for Head sail furling foil
When I had my foil and forestay repaired at Amel Martinique they replaced the rivets with threaded bolts. I want to say 10mm They did install backing plates to reinforce the contact points. Tef-Gel and one additional tightening since then, but it has not loosened due to flex and there i no corrosion to date.
Gary W s/v Adagio sm209 Mykonos
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Rivets for Head sail furling foil
James Alton
Kent, Thanks for this information. I hope that I can put things back together just as you did. I would like to put back the aluminum rivets since they won't be a dissimilar metal and cannot unscrew with use. I am finding out by the way that oversized aluminum rivets of 17/64 and 9/32" are available for aircraft repairs where a rivet has been removed and the hole has been enlarged. There are special rivet removal tools that center on the head of the rivet to insure that the drilled hole is centered that I am considering. I have not used one. Drilling just deep enough to remove the head and tapping out the rest of the rivet might be something I will try to do to prevent enlarging the hole as well. I have not had time to fully research whether the oversized aircraft rivets would be suitable for the Marine application with regards to alloy etc. But wanted to mention this in case it is helpful to someone with oversized holes. Best, James SV Sueno Maramu #220
On May 7, 2018 9:59 AM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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WG: [Amel Yacht Owners] Oman Generator
Heinz Stutenbaeumer
Von: Heinz Stutenbäumer
Hallo First Thanks to all. Bill You are rigth There is a breaker in the relay Blue it was not in so I've blocked it, and I've established It should work this way for a while until I have a replacement. I am sorry that I only answered today but I had no or bad Internett Fair Winds Heinz SM2000 292 Quetzal
Von: Bill Rouse
The shore power/generator relay inside this box probably needs replacing. Do Not Delay because it can overheat and cause a fire. An electrician could bypass the relay, but you would need to add a switch to have shore power and/or generator power: Best,
CW Bill Rouse
On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 1:28 PM, Stutenbaeumer.Berlin <heinz@...> wrote:
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Rivets for Head sail furling foil
I drilled out the old rivets using a 1/4inch bit, James.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Kent Robertson S/V Kristy SM243
On May 6, 2018, at 11:42 PM, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Kent, Can you tell me if the 1/4” rivets fit the original holes in your furler, or did you need to drill them out some? I will be changing my headstay this year so need to drill out the rivets and would like to bring the correct size with me to the boat. Thanks, James SV Sueño Maramu #220
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Rivets for Head sail furling foil
James Alton
Vladimir,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Thank you for the information. The Mil-spec maximum hole size for a 1/4” rivet is 265 thousandths and 7mm is 275.5 thousandths. I wonder if the hole size you are reporting has been increased by drilling out the rivet? Or if this hole is being measured in the aluminum extrusion, perhaps the riveting process enlarged the hole some? I am wondering if a 1/4” rivet could be preswelled the additional 10 thousandths to completely fill the hole? I will run this one by an engineering friend to get his opinion. It would seem that a single pc. of aluminum could be machined to insert into the inside of the extrusion to provide something to tap into if needed. The hole size to tap for an 8mm bolt is 269 thousandths so very close to the hole size that you have. I am unclear if the Amel Owners that are replacing the original rivets with the 8mm bolts are simply tapping the existing holes in the two parts being joined or are inserting some sort of a backing? Could someone enlighten me on whether a backing plate of some sort is needed to convert the original furler rivets to the 8mm bolts? This change would be nice so that I would not have to drill out the rivets each time the furler needed to be removed. Best of luck, James SV Sueño Maramu #220
On May 7, 2018, at 7:17 AM, Vladimir Sonsev sonsev52@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Rivets for Head sail furling foil
VLADIMIR SONSEV
James, The rivets were drilled out. The holes are 7 mm diameter. 1/4" diameter rivets are small for 7mm holls, but I can't find rivets that are 7 mm in diameter. Does anybody have a drawing of a threaded backing plate that can be inserted in the foil? Perhaps using screws and the backing plats are the best sollution. Does Amel sell the backing plats? Vladimir S/V "Life is Good" SM 345
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Rivets for Head sail furling foil
James Alton
Kent,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Can you tell me if the 1/4” rivets fit the original holes in your furler, or did you need to drill them out some? I will be changing my headstay this year so need to drill out the rivets and would like to bring the correct size with me to the boat. Thanks, James SV Sueño Maramu #220
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Charging / Discharging issue
You definitely have a problem, Olaf. I have 90AHr batteries, and they last 10-12 hrs at anchor, an hour or so of charging with the Onan gets them back to 90+% of capacity.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I have lead acid batteries, and can’t comment on how to check AGMs. With lead acid batteries, a cold cranking amps test and specific gravity of the electrolyte can help figure out what is wrong. Do AGMs need equalizing??? Kent SM243
On May 6, 2018, at 8:46 PM, olaf_renos@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Hello AMELians,
On Friday I was first time out on anchorage with my SM2K and wondered about the discharging of the batteries. The discharging was around 20% within 6 hours! Only the fridge, refrigerator (on level 2) and the VHF were turned on. No more.
Furthermore, the wind generator was running all the time and the solar panel filled at that time as-well.
I my opinion this isn’t normal and I guess as minimum one battery isn’t working properly.
I also wondered about the charging of the Onan Generator. I run it with 100Amp charger and it could only fill up the batteries by ca. 2% in 1,5 hours!
What is the best way to find out what is wrong? Checking the batteries? How to check them if they don’t work properly?
My questions are now: · Is that the normal charging rate of the Onan generator by using the 100Amp charge controller with those kinds of batteries? · How is the normal charging rate of the Onan generator with those kind of battery setup? · Or do I have an issue with the Onan generator? When that seems to be how could I find out / what I have to check? · How could I find out or what is the best way to find out if the batteries are working properly or not?
Batteries AGM batteries Vision EV-27-AM and the capacity of each one is 100 Ah = 600Ah.
Solar Panel 245W
Wind Generator Silent Wind 400
Any help is highly appreciated.
Fair Winds
Olaf Bauer
S/V Sayonara II, SM2K 392 currently in St. Anne, Martinique
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Rivets for Head sail furling foil
I used1/4 inch rivets. No problems with installation or in the 3 years since
Kent SM 243 KRISTY
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Charging / Discharging issue
olaf_renos@...
Hello AMELians,
On Friday I was first time out on anchorage with my SM2K and wondered about the discharging of the batteries. The discharging was around 20% within 6 hours! Only the fridge, refrigerator (on level 2) and the VHF were turned on. No more.
Furthermore, the wind generator was running all the time and the solar panel filled at that time as-well.
I my opinion this isn’t normal and I guess as minimum one battery isn’t working properly.
I also wondered about the charging of the Onan Generator. I run it with 100Amp charger and it could only fill up the batteries by ca. 2% in 1,5 hours!
What is the best way to find out what is wrong? Checking the batteries? How to check them if they don’t work properly?
My questions are now: · Is that the normal charging rate of the Onan generator by using the 100Amp charge controller with those kinds of batteries? · How is the normal charging rate of the Onan generator with those kind of battery setup? · Or do I have an issue with the Onan generator? When that seems to be how could I find out / what I have to check? · How could I find out or what is the best way to find out if the batteries are working properly or not?
Batteries AGM batteries Vision EV-27-AM and the capacity of each one is 100 Ah = 600Ah.
Solar Panel 245W
Wind Generator Silent Wind 400
Any help is highly appreciated.
Fair Winds
Olaf Bauer
S/V Sayonara II, SM2K 392 currently in St. Anne, Martinique
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