Date   
Re: lofrans windlass switch.

ericmeury@...
 

We have a santorin 1993...hull 86

Re: lofrans windlass switch.

ericmeury@...
 

yes sorry...should have been more clear...the ones mounted on the windless motor housing.

Re: lofrans windlass switch.

greatketch@...
 

Eric,

I am not sure which switches you are talking about... Are these the ones mounted on the motor hoursing of the windlass?

It helps if you post the model and hull number of your boat so we know where to start with a response...

Bill Kinney
SM 160, Harmonie
Rock Sound Harbour, Eleuthera, Bahamas

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Steering hydraulic line

eric freedman
 

Bill,

I have found that the plumbers wrench slips when a lot of force is needed to tighten the nut. When the packing is new it is a no brainer, but when the packing gets compressed, it slips.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2018 11:38 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Steering hydraulic line

 

 

You can buy one from Amel and that will work.  You can have one custom made, and that will work.  

 

Or you can buy what, in the USA, is called a "plumber's slip wrench"...  and that will work just as well.

 

 

I am generally not a fan of "adjustable" wrenches, but in this case these work fine.  You can buy the same wrench from a marine supply store as a "packing gland wrench" for twice the price too...

 

Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

Rock Sound Harbour, Eleuthera, Bahamas

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Steering hydraulic line

greatketch@...
 

You can buy one from Amel and that will work.  You can have one custom made, and that will work.  

Or you can buy what, in the USA, is called a "plumber's slip wrench"...  and that will work just as well.


I am generally not a fan of "adjustable" wrenches, but in this case these work fine.  You can buy the same wrench from a marine supply store as a "packing gland wrench" for twice the price too...

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Rock Sound Harbour, Eleuthera, Bahamas

lofrans windlass switch.

ericmeury@...
 

I know that has been talked about before and i read the threads...


but...has anyone found a source here in the status for these...i know the vetus ones from jamestown would work but they are pretty expensive for what they are.  I found a Victory #RC46047-2 on the boat and can confirm that THIS DOES NOT WORK as the length is not long enough to put the backing nut on it.  


Also thinking about the wireless windless remote but the "marine" versions might be overkill since the control box for it would be inside the boat and well protected....thoughts.

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Props and rpm

karkauai
 

I still have my old AutoProp if anyone wants to buy it.  It’s just taking up space now, so you can have it for a good price.
 I think a good prop shop can modify it to fit your shaft.



Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
SM243

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Props and rpm

karkauai
 

I didn’t notice a significant difference between fuel consumption between the AutoProp and MaxProp.


Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
SM243

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Props and rpm

Patrick McAneny
 

Jose, I would have already bought an Autoprop and almost did, until I was informed that the shaft housing had not been modified as on later models to accept the Autoprop.
Thanks,
Pat
SM#123



-----Original Message-----
From: jvenegas@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Sun, May 13, 2018 12:24 pm
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Props and rpm

 
I did some studying when I was buying a prop for my previous Beneteau 361.  I found that selecting the type of folding prop depended on the objective.  If it is to reduce drag while sailing the Flexofold or Max prop are pretty good doing that, and better than the Auto-prop which, at low wind conditions tends to take strange configurations causing extra drag. In the category the Max prop because its blades are flat has the lowest drag.
If the objective is to minimize fuel consumption during motoring, the blade of the Flexofold and the Autoprop are better shaped with an angle of attack that is reduced from the center outwards (twist).  This is important because the speed of the blade relative to the water increases with the radius of a rotating object.  The Autoprop blades have a constant angle of attack (flat blades) which is less efficient and can cause flow separation, turbulence, and possibly cavitation reducing thei r efficiency. 

Finally, if optimizing fuel consumption while motor-sailing is the objective, the  Autoprop is best as it adjusts its angle of attack as the wind increases and keeps the prop working efficiently.  Fix pitched props like the Flex or Max as the wind increases they end up spinning adding little power.   

In summary,  If cost is not the issue, I find that the Autoprop is Ideal for those of us that tend to motor-sail when the wind is low or comes from the nose.

My 5 cents.

Jose Venegas
Ipanema SM2K 278
Boston

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Steering hydraulic line

eric freedman
 

Thomas,

I would suggest you but the nut wrench from Amel, or have one made out of ¼ inch aluminum. There is a photo of mine in the photo section.

This will allow you to tighten the nut while at sea.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...] On Behalf Of thomas.kleman
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2018 3:01 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Steering hydraulic line

 

 

So, I noticed about a shot glass of water in the starboard lower compartment in the aft cabin (just forward of the linear drive). On SM2K #422, this is where sea water ends up when the rudder post stuffing box leaks a bit. As before, I turned the mylar nut one more facing (I guess 1/8 of a revolution) and it seems to have done the trick. Great.

 

However, in making this adjustment it was necessary to take off mattress, etc and completely open the storage area under the bed. I don't have that rudder nut tool I've seen on this site and my wrench only fits on the starboard side of the quadrant.  Not an area of the boat I visit regularly enough. No leaks, spots, anything......so far, so good. But I did notice that one of the hydraulic lines to the rudder quadrant has a small bulge/area of deformity about an inch from its termination and it's joint to the piston. Hmmm. This could have been there for 14 years, 14 months, or 14 minutes........I felt around and the hose seems OK; no blistering, tearing, etc. And it has not leaked to date as the area all around the hose seems to be completely dry.

 

If there were to be a leak from this spot, I suppose it's a pretty big problem.......I would then be dependent on the linear drive autopilot to work because the other autopilot uses the wheel (and thus the hydraulics). And I'm not anxious to ever use the emergency tiller.

 

Has anyone ever changed one of these hoses and what is the process ? It's not clear to me what size the hose/fitting is........nor is it clear how one bleeds it after a new hose is installed. Any ideas ?

 

Tom Kleman

SV L'ORIENT

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Props and rpm

greatketch@...
 

Jose,

I completely agree with the engineering theory of your analysis.  

Where we might differ is I simply do not believe that a on a boat like an SM the drag difference between an Autoprop(worst) and a Maxprop (best) would be at all noticeable to anybody cruising. Especially since people who would chose the Autoprop for the promise of its improved motoring performance are most likely to be motoring at the times when the difference would be largest.

All of these options have drag an order of magnitude lower than a fixed three blade prop, and that difference is most certainly easily noticeable!  But the differences in drag between the various folding/feathering options simply isn't significant given all the other variables involved.

In the real world, an Autoprop costs about $1000 more than a classic Maxprop of similar size. If I accept on faith the maximum fuel economy improvement that Autoprop claims in their marketing (30%), to generate a positive payback would require more miles of motorsailing  than I will likely do in the rest of my cruising life.  Other people do motor sail a lot more than I do and might come to a different conclusion.  

Bill Kinney
Sm160, Harmonie
Rock Sound Harbour, Eleuthera, Bahamas



---In amelyachtowners@..., <jvenegas@...> wrote :

I did some studying when I was buying a prop for my previous Beneteau 361.  I found that selecting the type of folding prop depended on the objective.  If it is to reduce drag while sailing the Flexofold or Max prop are pretty good doing that, and better than the Auto-prop which, at low wind conditions tends to take strange configurations causing extra drag. In the category the Max prop because its blades are flat has the lowest drag.
If the objective is to minimize fuel consumption during motoring, the blade of the Flexofold and the Autoprop are better shaped with an angle of attack that is reduced from the center outwards (twist).  This is important because the speed of the blade relative to the water increases with the radius of a rotating object.  The Autoprop blades have a constant angle of attack (flat blades) which is less efficient and can cause flow separation, turbulence, and possibly cavitation reducing their efficiency. 

Finally, if optimizing fuel consumption while motor-sailing is the objective, the  Autoprop is best as it adjusts its angle of attack as the wind increases and keeps the prop working efficiently.  Fix pitched props like the Flex or Max as the wind increases they end up spinning adding little power.   

In summary,  If cost is not the issue, I find that the Autoprop is Ideal for those of us that tend to motor-sail when the wind is low or comes from the nose.

My 5 cents.

Jose Venegas
Ipanema SM2K 278
Boston

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Props and rpm

Patrick McAneny
 

Kent, Didn't know you had bought the Max prop , glad you are happy with it, I think I am going with it. I may give you a call.
Thanks,
Pat


-----Original Message-----
From: Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Sun, May 13, 2018 12:58 pm
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Props and rpm

 
I’m very happy with my MaxProp. It’s not as persnickety as the AutoProp about growth.  I service it at every bottom paint job when I change the shaft seals and WOB.

They make a model that can be repitched in the water.  It’s a lot more expensive than the standard model that you have to haul out to repitch.  I had to do one quick haul to repitch when I reported with the Yanmar.



Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
SM243

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Props and rpm

Patrick McAneny
 

Bill, Thanks for the follow up. I have been leaning more to the Max prop classic,they suggested the Easy , but its like a grand more and once the pitch is set than I don't see that its worth it. Since you have the Max prop, and I assume you also have the TMD22 78 hp , can you tell me what the size and pitch you have as well as your max rpm /speed ? Does it seem to have adequate power to punch through wind and waves and what rpm do you cruise at and at what speed? Sorry for all the questions , but I don't know of another SM with the Max prop .
Thanks Again,
Pat SM#123


-----Original Message-----
From: greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Sun, May 13, 2018 12:17 pm
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Props and rpm

 


Yes, Amel overpitched the prop on the Volvo on purpose. Volvo suggested that one of several reasons that you might want to restrict the top speed of the engine was "reduced noise."  

 I don't know what Amel did on the Yanmars.  I am sure somebody here can answer that...

I wouldn't tell them "under 3000" but rather give them 3000 as the target.  Lower speeds will result in lower net power output from the engine, so you don't want to drop much.

I have owned two boats with a "Classic" 3 blade MaxProp (including Harmonie) and have been very happy with them.  They work, they are easy to care for, no bearings, seals, or other parts that we ar out.  Every haulout I take mine apart and clean and grease it.  I keep a zinc on the end, and all has been good.

I have no experience with Flexofold specifically.  My fleet experience with folding props is limited to Martec brand props on racing sailboats.  Not applicable to a SM installation, but I didn't particularly like them, both from a maintenance and a performance under power standpoint. The maintenance issue was wear of the pivot pins. They needed regular replacement.

In the real world, I very much doubt there is anything other than a theoretical performance difference between any of the major brands of folding or feathering props.  Certainly in sailing performance, and even in motoring the differences aren't really going to be significant. Many folding props struggle a bit with reverse, but I suspect that is more a case of the helmsman needing to rev the engine more than he was used to.

One nice thing about a Maxprop: Based the experiences of other SM owners who have them installed by Amel in the early production run, you know exactly which one to get and where to set the adjustable pitch without trial and error. No need to pay the premium for the model with in-water pitch adjustment.

And as a total aside.... Speaking of "premium," the new 5 blade Maxprop is a beautiful piece of machinework!  Priced like fine jewelry, but I imagine it is runs really, really smoothly.  Certainly not worth it for the two or three hundred hours a year I have the engine running, but it would certainly make me the star of the boatyard at haulout!

Bill Kinney
Sm#160, Harmonie
Rock Sound Harbour, Eleuthera, Bahamas

---In amelyachtowners@..., wrote :

Bill, Thank you for your detailed reply. If I understand you correctly and correct me if I am wrong, Amel purposely over pitched my fixed prop to restrain it from attaining higher rpms and Volvo is fine with that. So, can owners with Yanmars obtain max rpms? I can't imagine I would want to hear my engine running higher than 3000 rpm , I feel as though I am over stressing it at that , I know it stresses me . So whatever prop I should buy , I should have them sell me a prop size and pitc h that keeps my TMD22a under 3000 rpm. I know you were involved in the charter business , do you have any experience with Flexofold or Max Prop ?
Thanks Again,
Pat
SM #123

Re: Steering hydraulic line

thomas.kleman <no_reply@...>
 

Just as you posted this i finished googling "rack and pinion steering" and realized the stupidity of my question. Obviously my double major in Poetry and Contemporary Pottery didn't prepare me well for boat ownership. :)

Re: Steering hydraulic line

Alan Leslie
 

Its not a hydraulic hose, it's a cable. they are supposedly lubricated for life.
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437

Steering hydraulic line

thomas.kleman <no_reply@...>
 

So, I noticed about a shot glass of water in the starboard lower compartment in the aft cabin (just forward of the linear drive). On SM2K #422, this is where sea water ends up when the rudder post stuffing box leaks a bit. As before, I turned the mylar nut one more facing (I guess 1/8 of a revolution) and it seems to have done the trick. Great.


However, in making this adjustment it was necessary to take off mattress, etc and completely open the storage area under the bed. I don't have that rudder nut tool I've seen on this site and my wrench only fits on the starboard side of the quadrant.  Not an area of the boat I visit regularly enough. No leaks, spots, anything......so far, so good. But I did notice that one of the hydraulic lines to the rudder quadrant has a small bulge/area of deformity about an inch from its termination and it's joint to the piston. Hmmm. This could have been there for 14 years, 14 months, or 14 minutes........I felt around and the hose seems OK; no blistering, tearing, etc. And it has not leaked to date as the area all around the hose seems to be completely dry.


If there were to be a leak from this spot, I suppose it's a pretty big problem.......I would then be dependent on the linear drive autopilot to work because the other autopilot uses the wheel (and thus the hydraulics). And I'm not anxious to ever use the emergency tiller.


Has anyone ever changed one of these hoses and what is the process ? It's not clear to me what size the hose/fitting is........nor is it clear how one bleeds it after a new hose is installed. Any ideas ?


Tom Kleman

SV L'ORIENT

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: SM Prop Shaft Seal direction and Bush***RESPONSE TO *** IMPORTAN

eric freedman
 

Bill,

I agree with you 100%.

That is why I do it the way it is done in the original installation.

Fair Winds

Eric

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2018 8:55 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: SM Prop Shaft Seal direction and Bush***RESPONSE TO *** IMPORTAN

 

 

Eric,

 

Since you gave me some hints on my first C-DRIVE service and Gary Silver provided me with written instructions, I would like to share this. In my personal experience with SM 387 and with over 40 SM & 54 clients, when water enters the C-DRIVE, it has nothing to do with seal orientation. It has always been something else that has been done wrong. 

 

That said, to RISK the double protection of the oil to try to overcome what, in my experience, is something else done wrong is a RISK that I wouldn't take.


Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

 

On Sat, May 12, 2018, 22:53 'sailormon' kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

[Attachment(s) from sailormon included below]

Hi Miles,

Here is the page from my Amel manual. Possibly yours is different. For the first 4 or 5 years I hauled Kimberlite every year and sanded the bottom and painted it. Now I do her every other year.

This summer I had the bottom paint removed to the Gel coat .

 

Every time she was out of the water, I also did the zincs, WOB with seals, line cutter,  and bowthruster.

As we both know these are inexpensive items and I don’t understand the hubbub about trying to make the WOB last longer. I have always installed the seals with the 2 closest to the oil ( as per the drawing) with the spring side facing the oil , and the outboard one with the spring side facing the prop. Just goes to show you that your method and mine both work.  If you look at the text in the drawing they use either 3 8 mm lip seals or 2 12 mm seals.

 

Looking forward to seeing you for the 4th.

 

Fair Winds

Eric

 

 

 

 

Jose, Craig,

 

I don’t understand why two years has any significance.  The original Amel instructions were to change the wearing out bearing every 650 hours.  How much the bearing wears is a function of engine hours not time.   Any valid comparison test would need to for the same number of hours at the same engine speed.

For over 5000 engine hours, I have changed the wearing out bearing using lots of silicone grease and following the Amel instructions of the first bearing facing in and the outer two bearings facing out.  I have done this (or Amel has done it) every 650 hours or so.  I have never had any problem of water in the oil or loss of oil.    I have had  my boat since it was new and I learned early on that everything that Amel does or recommends is for a reason.   

 

Regards,

 

Miles

s/y Ladybug, sm 216, Le Marin Martinique

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Props and rpm

 

Bill,

Excellent analysis! Clear, concise, accurate and very logical. Thanks, this is a gentle of a posting!

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Sun, May 13, 2018, 09:12 greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Pat,


It is totally "normal" when picking a prop for a diesel engine to do exactly as Felxofold suggests.  You pick a propeller that allows the engine to turn its full rated RPM at full throttle. (which is where the engine power rating is specified). The way a propeller power curve is shaped, there is no advantage to operating the engine at its "maxiumum torque."

Most engine makers will insist on speed matching as part of the proper installation.  In fact, Volvo does on their other engines.  If you installed most marine diesel engines propped to run at 1500RPM below rating at full throttle, they would struggle, have significant maintenance issues, and have a shorter than expected lifespan.

With THIS engine in particular, Volvo did not insist. They even suggested in the engine manual that there are advantages to "over-propping" the engine and having it peak at lowe r RPM than its full rating. In fact you have to look really hard to even find Volvo mentioning the 4500 RPM number! I am not completely sure WHY Volvo felt this appropriate for this engine, but Amel took advantage of this flexibility in full throttle RPM, and propped it to full-throttle at about 3000RPM.  

I think the history of this engine in Amels supports that decision.  We do suffer from some issues (minor carbon build up in the turbo, and constant black soot on the hull) that come from it, but but they seem to have a long and relatively trouble free service life, as a rule.  Mine just turned 8000 hours.  If I figure 12,000 hours as a reasonable lifespan, that gives me another... 15 years :)

This is one of those places where someone coming from a long history with other boats looks at the Volvo installation in an Amel and decides right away that it is wrong...  but it works exactly like it is supposed to.

My wild speculation with what happened on this engine, is that that Perkins specified the max RPM with an eye to the Automotive market.  It was a popular engine in Land Rovers, among others. A redline RPM means something very different in an automobile, where running at maximum rated RPM is an unusual and short term event.  (At least the way I drive.) In addition, automobile engines that last 5000 hours are the exception, not the rule.

In a marine installation, an engine operates very high up on its power curve--all the time.  Volvo probably felt that operating the engine at 4500RPM continuously wasn&# 39;t a good idea for service and longevity, but for some reason didn't want to change the injection pump to lower the peak RPM and HP rating of the engine.  I suspect because they wanted to keep the 74HP rating as a sales tool--even if it was unrealistic for a typical marine installation.

Long and short of this is: Have flexofold specify a prop that will load your engine enough that it tops out at something between 2900 and 3300RPM.  You'll motor at 8 knots (full throttle), and be happy.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Rock Sound Harbour, Eleuthera, Bahamas

---In amelyachtowners@..., wrote :

I had flexofold suggest a prop and pitch that would allow the engine reach its max rpm , in my case 4500 . I now just read on the Max prop website , that their prop would also allow the engine to reach full rpm ,"in flat water." I wrote back to Flexofold that this did not sound correct , as my fixed prop does not allow me to get beyond 3000, and I have not read about anyone else able to reach rpms that high. I would think  reaching max torque would be the goal . Should a prop/ pitch allow an engine to obtain max rpms ? I don't know what to think or what is correct on this subject, and I may owe Flexofold a retraction.

Thanks,

Pat

SM #123

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Props and rpm

karkauai
 

I’m very happy with my MaxProp. It’s not as persnickety as the AutoProp about growth.  I service it at every bottom paint job when I change the shaft seals and WOB.

They make a model that can be repitched in the water.  It’s a lot more expensive than the standard model that you have to haul out to repitch.  I had to do one quick haul to repitch when I reported with the Yanmar.



Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
SM243

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Props and rpm

Jose Venegas
 

I did some studying when I was buying a prop for my previous Beneteau 361.  I found that selecting the type of folding prop depended on the objective.  If it is to reduce drag while sailing the Flexofold or Max prop are pretty good doing that, and better than the Auto-prop which, at low wind conditions tends to take strange configurations causing extra drag. In the category the Max prop because its blades are flat has the lowest drag.
If the objective is to minimize fuel consumption during motoring, the blade of the Flexofold and the Autoprop are better shaped with an angle of attack that is reduced from the center outwards (twist).  This is important because the speed of the blade relative to the water increases with the radius of a rotating object.  The Autoprop blades have a constant angle of attack (flat blades) which is less efficient and can cause flow separation, turbulence, and possibly cavitation reducing their efficiency. 

Finally, if optimizing fuel consumption while motor-sailing is the objective, the  Autoprop is best as it adjusts its angle of attack as the wind increases and keeps the prop working efficiently.  Fix pitched props like the Flex or Max as the wind increases they end up spinning adding little power.   

In summary,  If cost is not the issue, I find that the Autoprop is Ideal for those of us that tend to motor-sail when the wind is low or comes from the nose.

My 5 cents.

Jose Venegas
Ipanema SM2K 278
Boston