ZF25 Transmission Dipstick / Fluid Level
IMPORTANT NOTICE To all Amel Owners, I have recently had a failure event with my ZF25 gearbox. You can read about it further in Topic #41215 on this forum. In that failure event, the dipstick for my ZF25 was damaged, and so I needed some means of checking fluid level until a new dipstick was delivered. I then embarked on a very confusing 2 week journey of trying to determine independently where the correct fluid level should be in a ZF25 gearbox without reference to a dipstick. The results of this are very significant for Amel owners with ZF25 gearboxes. Please note the following: 1. ZF Marine have informed me that ALL user manuals, parts lists, service manuals, brochures, marketing specs, website data etc for the ZF25 gearbox which state that the fluid capacity of the gearbox is 2.0Litres, are all incorrect. 2. The correct fluid level for the ZF25 gearbox is 3.0L, but this figure only appears in the original installation drawing of the ZF25 (in Italian), which ZF sent to me and I will post on the forum files archive. 3. Some owners will already suspect that it is really a 3L box because they will add 2.0L as specified in the manual, and then wonder why they needed to add another full litre to bring it up to the top of their dipstick. These owners have a "short" dipstick and can rest easy. 4. However, some owners will add 2.0l and find that its already close to the full mark on their dipstick. If you are one of those owners then this message is addressed to you. 5. I know that some Amel 54 models have been supplied with an incorrect dipstick. This dipstick is too long and reads "full" when 2 litres of fluid is present in the gearbox. These boats have been operating one litre short of fluid, which equates to a fluid level which is about 20mm too low. 7. I do not know who made the change of dipstick in the production process of these boats, but I can guess why they made the change, that is to try and match the disptick to the 2litre capacity widely published by ZF. I urge all owners to check your dipstick against the following information: If you have a dipstick with part numbers 3312-301-028 or 3312-201-002 then you have the wrong dipstick and your ZF25 is at risk of damage due to low fluid level. If you have a dipstick with part numbers 3311-301-003 or 3311-201-001 then you have the correct dipstick and you will have the correct 3.0l of fluid in your gearbox. If you have already experienced the failure and have replaced your gearbox with a new one from ZF, then you will most likely have the correct dipstick. Finally, as an absolute measure, the correct fluid level is between 84.5mm and 96.5mm from the mating face of the dipstick hole. I do not know if this problem ever affected SM production, but I do know that the documentation error from ZF was present in 2002. I am collating a private list of hull numbers which have been affected by this issue, and I would really appreciate if owners would email me privately on the email below or simply post here on the forum. I'd like to know your hull number and : 1. whether you have the long (incorrect) dipstick and if you've had transmission troubles, 2. If you have the short (correct) dipstick, have you renewed your transmission (or dipstick) since the the boat was delivered new. Thank you Dr Dean Gillies SY STELLA AMEL 54 #154 +61 411 967106 trifin (at) soundthinking (dot) com (dot) au
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ZF25 Transmission Failure
Hi All, After load testing this morning I am 99% sure my ZF25 transmission has failed. I know the root cause of the failure, and I will publish separately on that issue later. I'm told by the ZF representatives that a new transmission will take at least 3 months to supply. I don't want to entertain re-conditioning of this box because I know the root cause of the problem. Our sailing season is over before it started, the admiral is devastated and has lost all confidence in the boat. We will most likely winterise the boat and go home soon.
However, before I do that I'd like to convert that 99% to 100%, to be absolutely certain that the problem is the gearbox. I'm finding it difficult to get the required level of professional support here in Kalamata, so I'm hoping for some sage guidance from the group. So, the symptoms... Two weeks ago we started motoring due to no wind. Flat sea, running about 1700-1800rpm. I started hearing some "modulation" of the engine tone, like wandering RPM. I also noticed the disappearance of a "rattle/chatter" sound which has always come from our Morse Control. It's not a loud rattle, but is clearly transmitted from the gearbox up the gearshift cable and resonates from the hand control unit. (Is that a standard thing - or an early symptom of a gearbox problem?) I thought we had something stuck on the propeller, so we stopped and I checked it. Nothing. We started again and the boat would not run up to normal speeds for the RPM we were using. We stopped again, and I checked the engine room once more. Fluids ok, no leaks, nothing looked out of the ordinary. So we continued and I increased the RPM to about 2000-2100, and continued on making only about 4 knots. After 10 minutes or so, I opened the engine room again to check, and was met with an outburst of smoke, burning smell and everything was very hot. After stopping and investigating further I found the cause of the overheat was that the shaft brake was stuck closed. The ZF 25 gearbox was also very hot, and when I opened it to check the fluid again the lower part of the dipstick was melted into an elongated blob of plastic. There was no fluid leakage, so I assumed that the fluid level was still ok. I found out how to undo the shaft brake, and wedged a spanner in it to make sure it stayed open. By then everything was cooled down and we proceeded to motor slowly to shore at about 1200rpm. Interestingly the "rattle" mentioned above was back. We flushed and changed fluids and ran the boat gently for a day or two until we got to a marina. On testing the boat, we find that all is well until we exceed 2000rpm. Quite quickly after running at 2100rpm our little rattle stops, then the engine noise starts to waver and sounds like it it reducing in rpm, although the digital readout of rpm does not change from 2100rpm. The boat then starts to slow down from the 8.3 knots it was travelling at with 2000rpm. It drops a couple of knots. On checking the shaft brake at this point it is still open so that is not the reason for slowing. If I increase the engine power, we get no more thrust from the propeller. After this happens, I struggle to generate thrust even at lower rpm. Leaving everything to cool down completely appears to reset the problem. The rattle comes back, low RPM operation is ok, but when loaded up the gearbox seems to be failing. The one thing which is niggling in my head is that the engine rpm sounds like it momentarily drops down when this problem occurs, although the rpm readout does not change. However, I can easily increase the engine RPM by pushing the lever, it just does not transfer to the prop, which seems to me like gearbox trouble. All comments/suggestions appreciated. We don't really want to give up on our summer cruising, and apart from that its cold back in Sydney! Thanks all. Dean SY Stella Amel 54#154
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Re: Freshwater Pump - cycles rapidly
Thanks Alan
Sounds like the Marco pump is the way to go. I will get to that - at this stage I have bigger problems on my plate ... but that's a whole other topic! Cheers Dean
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] SVRascal
Jean-Pierre's MacBook Air <jgermain@...>
Hello Rick& Linda,
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Hold the sale… turn her around through the Panama Canal and the Pacific.. thats where you belong :-) But.. again its your decision to swallow the anchor. Big hugs to both of you. Jean-Pierre Germain, Eleuthera, SM007
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] SVRascal
Stephen Davis
Seems like a great idea to me...if your steering works, I might buy her. Steve
On Jul 23, 2018, at 13:54, 'Rick Grimes' rickgrimes1@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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SVRascal
Rick Grimes
Hello Amel Forum Friends,
We want to let you know that, in the next few weeks, Rascal is going to be listed for sale by a broker. IN THE INTERIM, we are offering Rascal for sale for a fixed price of $289,000. Offers less than $289,000 will not be considered. If you know anyone who may be interested, please ask them to contact me at +1-609-932-2307 and/or visit the link below for more detail. Rascal is a 2003 Amel Super Maramu 2000, Hull #404 and is ready to cruise. See this link: www.svrascal.com/rascal-listing.html
Rick and Linda Grimes
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Re: Freshwater Pump - cycles rapidly
The bladders in those accumulators are replaceable. We carried spares and changed them twice.
Last year we replaced the original pump with a Marco UP14E which is much smaller than the original contraption and supplies constant high flow. Very happy with it. We too wash decks, dodger, covers etc with the cockpit hose fresh water. Would definitely recommend changing to a Marco pump. Cheers Alan Elyse SM437 Yasawa-i-rara, Fiji
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Steering Failure on 1992 SM72 "Aloha"
Patrick McAneny
No problem Steve, glad to help anyway I can, let me know if you need anything else.
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Pat
SM Shenanigans
-----Original Message----- From: Stephen Davis flyboyscd@... [amelyachtowners] To: amelyachtowners Sent: Mon, Jul 23, 2018 3:59 pm Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Steering Failure on 1992 SM72 "Aloha" Hi Pat,
I just received the template you made, and really appreciate the effort you went to. It will make the job much easier.
Thanks,
Steve
S/V Aloha
On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 2:25 PM Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Re: Freshwater Pump - cycles rapidly
It’ll be interesting to see if mine fails shortly after this event Jean-Pierre. So far so good with the re-inflated bladder.
You guys are right about the Marco pumps, they are good. I’ve been talking with another owner about the UP14E which he really likes on his 54, but it might be overkill. We like Aussie style showers! Cheers Dean
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Steering Failure on 1992 SM72 "Aloha"
Stephen Davis
Hi Pat, I just received the template you made, and really appreciate the effort you went to. It will make the job much easier. Thanks, Steve S/V Aloha
On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 2:25 PM Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Yanmar Super maramu engine panel
eric freedman
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Freshwater Pump - cycles rapidly
MARCO pumps in the EU and in the US is an Amel School preferred replacement for OEM pumps is an Amel SM and 54. Amel School clients enjoy a 20% discount on MARCO pumps when ordered directly from MARCO or their US distributor MATE-USA. I like the MARCO and their pumps. Sadly they do not have a replacement for the MARINA ZZ bilge pump, but they have replacements for all of the other pumps. Cycling on/off when the tap is turned on/off is almost always a defective bladder inside the accumulator. Amel did have stock of bladders for the Amel 54 accumulator. Best, CW Bill Rouse Admiral, Texas Navy Commander Emeritus Amel School http://www.amelschool.com 720 Winnie St Galveston Island, TX 77550 +1(832) 380-4970 Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be taken when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any referred to mechanical and/or electrical device or system.
On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 12:47 PM Jean-Pierre's MacBook Air jgermain@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Freshwater Pump - cycles rapidly
Jean-Pierre's MacBook Air <jgermain@...>
Hi Dean,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Had this problem recently. In my case, it was a burst line in the engine bay. The pump also failed shortly thereafter and was replaced by a constant pressure Marco 12E. This is an awesome pump giving 3 bars pressure and negates the installation of an accumulator. I can now wash my decks with fresh water :-) Jean-Pierre Germain SY Eleuthera, SM007, Raiatea, Society Islands.
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Re: Freshwater Pump - cycles rapidly
Hi folks,
While on the subject of freshwater pumps, we had an issue recently whereby our pump rapidly cycled on-off every time a tap was opened. This is symptomatic of a discharged (or broken) accumulator. If the accumulator is simply discharged then it can be recharged with a bicycle pump or similar via the Schrader? valve at the forward facing end of the tank. It’s under a plastic cap which can be unscrewed. The process I used was to turn off the pump at the board, then drain a tap slowly until the pressure on the gauge at the pump just approaches zero. Then use the bicycle pump to pressurise the accumulator up to the desired working pressure, in my case around 1.5 - 2.0Bar. Turn on the pump at the board and it should go back to a normal cycle again. If you can’t pressurise the accumulator then it may need replacing. If it returns back to rapid cycling quickly, then maybe it has a leak. Not sure if it can be serviced. Cheers Dean SY Stella Amel 54#154
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] My batteries are dying.
Steve Bode
Thanks, Eric. I'm looking into that water temp alarm. -Capt Bode Steve Bode Sailing Vessel Intention Amel Super Maramu 1994 #117 Facebook.com/svIntention +1 415-710-6659
On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 10:03 PM, 'sailormon' kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] My batteries are dying.
eric freedman
Ps, The photo of the melted Vetus muffler on the Borel site was my muffler. Fair Winds Eric Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376
From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2018 7:37 AM To: amelyachtowners@... Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] My batteries are dying.
Hi Steve;
Glad you figured out your issue and it was a simple solution.
Olivier did recommended not to use both chargers together when he did our survey. I know some do use both together, but we do not. We do have have a 100 A and a 40 A and we find the 100A sufficient for charging. My recommendation would be to select the biggest charger that your generator can handle. Use this for when you are on the generator and the smaller one when plugged in. With 400A 24V bank you could use 60-80A charger,if your generator and wiring allows.
The temperature sensors for the battery bank is a great safety item and also a worth while investment to maximize the life of your batteries. We see fluctuations of up to 0.4V during the different charging cycles depending on the battery compartment temperature.
As far as audible alarms check out Borel manufacturing. http://www.borelmfg.com. Respectfully;
Mohammad And Aty B&B KOKOMO AMEL 54 #099
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] My batteries are dying.
Mohammad Shirloo
Hi Steve;
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Glad you figured out your issue and it was a simple solution. Olivier did recommended not to use both chargers together when he did our survey. I know some do use both together, but we do not. We do have have a 100 A and a 40 A and we find the 100A sufficient for charging. My recommendation would be to select the biggest charger that your generator can handle. Use this for when you are on the generator and the smaller one when plugged in. With 400A 24V bank you could use 60-80A charger,if your generator and wiring allows. The temperature sensors for the battery bank is a great safety item and also a worth while investment to maximize the life of your batteries. We see fluctuations of up to 0.4V during the different charging cycles depending on the battery compartment temperature. As far as audible alarms check out Borel manufacturing. http://www.borelmfg.com. Respectfully; Mohammad And Aty B&B KOKOMO AMEL 54 #099
On Jul 22, 2018, at 3:32 AM, Steve Bode stevenmbode@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] My batteries are dying.
Steve Bode
Thank you Amelians! I believe that the problem was that the monitor lost its programming of max capacity. What I did: 1. Batteries have been on charger for days so I assumed that they were fully charged as charger is in float. 2. Turn off charger 3. Turn of house batteries (big red handles) 4. Take picture of battery voltage on monitor -- 27.08 volts 3. Program the Magnetronic DCC4000 Battery Monitor to set capacity to 100% and total Ah to 400 4. Leave batteries to see how fast the voltage drops (remember, batteries are disconnected so there is no drain on them) 5. 2 hours later, check battery voltage - exactly the same 27.08 6. Open battery case and measure voltage on each battery. All were (almost) exactly the same - 13.52 7. Measured the voltage of each battery set -- nearly exactly the same -- 27.02 (slightly different than the battery monitor, but okay. 8. Check the charging profile of my Sterling 30A battery charger - AGM, charge=28.6, float=26.6 Now I guess buying AGMs put me in a spot to need a new alternator voltage regulator. Looking at the Sterling Alternator Regulator Damn, they're proud of that unit at 221 pounds! Also, I think that the 30A Sterling charger is too small. I have another 30A charger that I'm going to look into putting on line. That would be 60A charging and redundancy. Lastly, want to find out if I can use the sterling regulator as my solar panel regulator (they aren't installed yet). Probably better than the cheapy regulator that I bought with the panel and could give nice uniform monitoring capability. No wait, lastly. I want to hook up temperature sensors to my battery and alternator. Does everyone else use these? One thing I'm really big on is getting more audible alarms on the boat. I want to build an alarm system that I can connect various inputs into. Anyone know of a good system? Steve Bode Sailing Vessel Intention Amel Super Maramu 1994 #117 Facebook.com/svIntention +1 415-710-6659
On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 11:27 PM, divanz620@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Virgin Island Marinas or other options for leaving boat
On Jul 21, 2018, at 4:19 PM, 'Mark Erdos' mcerdos@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] My batteries are dying.
You should also disconnect the batteries (just one terminal) and test them individually..assuming they are 12V, if any battery shows substantially less than 12.8V then that could be the cause of your issue.
Why has it happened? Could be just a bad battery, or it could be, if you have the standard alternator without a 3 step regulator, many long periods of motoring will eventually kill your batteries. Cheers Alan Elyse SM437
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