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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

eric freedman
 

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/awg-wire-gauge-d_731.html

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 10:36 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

 

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/awg-wire-gauge-d_731.html

 

Hi ,

The wire I removed was 2.5 mm diameter not 2.5 sq mm.  I don’t know why mine is different. In any event 2.5 mm equates to over 5 sq. mm which is 10 gauge. That is what I am currently using.

I am aware not to coil up the cable and stretch it out on the dock for shorter runs.

That is also why I am adding a circuit breaker in the cable.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 9:07 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

 

Per Alan's comment here is the link to Olivier Beaute's previous post regarding the Shore Power Plug and Cable on Amel SMs:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/amelyachtowners/conversations/messages/28919

 

And here is a copy of the text:




Hello Alexander,

 

the original shore power cable installed in your SM is a 3G2.5 HO7. This is a high quality cable (HO7), with 3 2.5sqmm wires, able to carry 16 amps, not more. If you connect it to a 32A, even a 63A dock outlet, and turn on ALL of your 230V equipments, it will get fire in a few seconds, without tripping the dock's breaker.

This cable can only carry 16 amps, and if you have no other option than connecting to a 32A or 63A dock outlet, you MUST monitor your draw, and wash your clothes AFTER the scuba tanks are full.

Alan is right, the 32A breaker in the galley is made to hold the higher genset amperage..

 

When you connect to shore power, the cable must be as short as possible and uncoiled. Don't use unnecessary extensions. I've seen boats with 40 metres shore power cable nicely coiled in the lazarette, as the dock outlet was 3 metres from stern. This is a very safe way to get fire in your boat. If you have no choice, first uncoil your cable and spread it on the dock.

 

Concerning the originally mounted 110V/230V, 6kW step-up transformer (cubic grey box in engine room, optionnal) those who have it probably noticed that the 110V shore cable was bigger (3G4), able to carry 25A. So don't take more than 25A out of it (which means 15A on the 220V side of this transformer).

This transformer is NOT equipped with a galvanic isolator, meaning the ground is common to 110V input and 220V output. The 110V shore cable MUST be connected to the dock's ground/earth.

If you want to be protected from stray currents coming from your neighbors through the ground/earth wire, you need to install a galvanic isolator on the 110V input line.

Now some new products include a galvanic isolator, that's why they're called "isolation transformers".

 

Be careful with 220V but keep in mind that 12V or 24V could be even more dangerous (fire).

 

OLIVIER 

 

Mark McGovern

SM #440 Cara

Deale, MD USA

 
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

eric freedman
 

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/awg-wire-gauge-d_731.html

 

Hi ,

The wire I removed was 2.5 mm diameter not 2.5 sq mm.  I don’t know why mine is different. In any event 2.5 mm equates to over 5 sq. mm which is 10 gauge. That is what I am currently using.

I am aware not to coil up the cable and stretch it out on the dock for shorter runs.

That is also why I am adding a circuit breaker in the cable.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 9:07 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

 

Per Alan's comment here is the link to Olivier Beaute's previous post regarding the Shore Power Plug and Cable on Amel SMs:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/amelyachtowners/conversations/messages/28919

 

And here is a copy of the text:



Hello Alexander,

 

the original shore power cable installed in your SM is a 3G2.5 HO7. This is a high quality cable (HO7), with 3 2.5sqmm wires, able to carry 16 amps, not more. If you connect it to a 32A, even a 63A dock outlet, and turn on ALL of your 230V equipments, it will get fire in a few seconds, without tripping the dock's breaker.

This cable can only carry 16 amps, and if you have no other option than connecting to a 32A or 63A dock outlet, you MUST monitor your draw, and wash your clothes AFTER the scuba tanks are full.

Alan is right, the 32A breaker in the galley is made to hold the higher genset amperage.

 

When you connect to shore power, the cable must be as short as possible and uncoiled. Don't use unnecessary extensions. I've seen boats with 40 metres shore power cable nicely coiled in the lazarette, as the dock outlet was 3 metres from stern. This is a very safe way to get fire in your boat. If you have no choice, first uncoil your cable and spread it on the dock.

 

Concerning the originally mounted 110V/230V, 6kW step-up transformer (cubic grey box in engine room, optionnal) those who have it probably noticed that the 110V shore cable was bigger (3G4), able to carry 25A. So don't take more than 25A out of it (which means 15A on the 220V side of this transformer).

This transformer is NOT equipped with a galvanic isolator, meaning the ground is common to 110V input and 220V output. The 110V shore cable MUST be connected to the dock's ground/earth.

If you want to be protected from stray currents coming from your neighbors through the ground/earth wire, you need to install a galvanic isolator on the 110V input line.

Now some new products include a galvanic isolator, that's why they're called "isolation transformers".

 

Be careful with 220V but keep in mind that 12V or 24V could be even more dangerous (fire).

 

OLIVIER 

 

Mark McGovern

SM #440 Cara

Deale, MD USA

 
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: 24 Volt Outlet

Ryan Meador
 

I'd advise against wiring a cigarette lighter receptacle for 24V.  Inevitably (maybe the next owner), someone will plug in 12V equipment there and blow something up.  If you did want to do this, the receptacle itself is almost certainly able to tolerate it, and you likely don't have to halve the amperage vs 12V; most connectors are rated by current, not wattage, as long as you don't exceed the maximum voltage rating.  My boat has an actual cigarette lighter at the nav station that is wired for 24V.  I assume it is original -- there were a lot of smokers in 1998!  It is terrifying to me that a guest might accidentally plug into it, but it's also a neat piece of history.

To my knowledge, there is no standardized connector for 24VDC equipment.  The 2-prong things Amel has installed in a few places (I think the fan connectors others have mentioned?  my boat has no fans) are a de facto standard only on Amels, as far as I can tell.  That's what I would use if I could find more of them.  I don't know the part number.

Thanks,
Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA


On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 8:27 PM, sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Vladimir,  thanks for your reply.  It seems reasonable if I don't go over half the rated 12V amps.


Eric,  My boat has 220 volt outlets at the aft cabin desk and in the aft head instead of 24 volt.  I had not thought of plugging it into the fan above the aft cabin desk though!  That will be good for a temporary solution.

Thanks,
Duane
Re: Generator charging question

mfmcgovern@...
 

Per Alan's comment here is the link to Olivier Beaute's previous post regarding the Shore Power Plug and Cable on Amel SMs:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/amelyachtowners/conversations/messages/28919

And here is a copy of the text:

Hello Alexander,

the original shore power cable installed in your SM is a 3G2.5 HO7. This is a high quality cable (HO7), with 3 2.5sqmm wires, able to carry 16 amps, not more. If you connect it to a 32A, even a 63A dock outlet, and turn on ALL of your 230V equipments, it will get fire in a few seconds, without tripping the dock's breaker.
This cable can only carry 16 amps, and if you have no other option than connecting to a 32A or 63A dock outlet, you MUST monitor your draw, and wash your clothes AFTER the scuba tanks are full.
Alan is right, the 32A breaker in the galley is made to hold the higher genset amperage.

When you connect to shore power, the cable must be as short as possible and uncoiled. Don't use unnecessary extensions. I've seen boats with 40 metres shore power cable nicely coiled in the lazarette, as the dock outlet was 3 metres from stern. This is a very safe way to get fire in your boat. If you have no choice, first uncoil your cable and spread it on the dock.

Concerning the originally mounted 110V/230V, 6kW step-up transformer (cubic grey box in engine room, optionnal) those who have it probably noticed that the 110V shore cable was bigger (3G4), able to carry 25A. So don't take more than 25A out of it (which means 15A on the 220V side of this transformer).
This transformer is NOT equipped with a galvanic isolator, meaning the ground is common to 110V input and 220V output. The 110V shore cable MUST be connected to the dock's ground/earth.
If you want to be protected from stray currents coming from your neighbors through the ground/earth wire, you need to install a galvanic isolator on the 110V input line.
Now some new products include a galvanic isolator, that's why they're called "isolation transformers".

Be careful with 220V but keep in mind that 12V or 24V could be even more dangerous (fire).

OLIVIER 

Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] electrolysis on jib furling gearbox? [1 Attachment]

John Clark
 

Is it possible that this is localized galvanic corrosion caused by saltwater/salt accumulation under the disc?  Two metals+saltwater.....

John
SV Annie SM37
St. Augustine.

On Jan 9, 2018 11:11 PM, "pandmdegroot@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
[Attachment(s) from pandmdegroot@... included below]

Greetings and Happy New Year,

I’m new to the group having purchased “Liebling” SM hull #207 In June 2017.  Now she is “La Querida” berthed in Moss Landing, California.

Over the last several months I noticed something like grease dripping out from the jib furling gearbox and finally dismantled it last weekend.  In general it was in reasonable shape for a 20 year old gearbox.  However the aluminum  disc on the out put shaft showed considerable pitting which I interpret as electrolysis.  On my particular box, the aluminum is in contact with a bronze or brass bushing.  I did some reading on line and was quite alarmed to learn that neighboring boats and poor grounding of the marina shore power apparently can accelerate electrolysis on a well designed and maintained boat such as our Amels.  So two questions:

  1. Has anyone else experienced this electrolysis on the aluminum disc on top of the gearbox?  (or is mine indicative of a bigger problem)
  2. I briefly investigated galvanic isolators as protection for poorly grounded shore power.  Is this worthwhile?

Thanks in advance.

BTW our plans are to cruise to Mexicos west coast after retirement in about 3 years.  Saludos a todas!
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

Brent Cameron
 

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Shore power cord

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Eric,
I guess you know not to leave any surplus cable length coiled up. It can cause the wire to overheat and catch on fire.
Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
Mangonui New Zealnd

Sent from my Vodafone Smart

On 11 Jan 2018 9:05 a.m., "'sailormon' kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Ryan,

I bought 100 feet of 10 gauge round black rubber coated wire from Home depot about 8 years ago. It is rated at 30 amps. I hooked  it up to a 50 amp USA twist-lock plug and use only the red, black and green ground. DO NOT HOOK UP THE WHITE NEUTRAL. 

It works well with everything on board running including 3 AC units. The AC units are on timers so they all do not start at once.

I have never seen over 16 amps when everything is running.

It looks exactly like the factory stock wire supplied by Amel.

100 feet is long but on occasion it comes in handy.

I am currently working to make a box to connect into the wire near the pedestal plug with a 35 amp circuit breaker in it. This is because the breaker on the 50  amp pedestal is 50 amps.

 

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

I pulled the wire all the way from the stern to the transfer case so there are no splices.

I have made a number of adapters for the 30 and 50 amp European plugs that just plug into the 50 amp twistlock.

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 2:19 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

 

Interesting that so many marinas as so limiting on power.  Is it possible to run all three air conditioners on 16A?  I've never measured the draw.

 

My SM has a shore power cord and main breaker sized for 35A (I was under the impression this is true for all SM).  I believe the generator runs through that same 35A breaker, so that's the max there as well (it's basically moot since it's a 9kW generator).  My shore power cord could use a replacement, so I've been investigating the possibility of upgrading it to handle 50A.  It would be handy to have the extra power to run the heat in the winter.  My boat came from the factory with extra dedicated heater circuits, which I don't think are standard, so it would be no trouble at all to exceed 35A draw from the panel.  The biggest challenge is fitting a larger cord through the conduit to the panel.

 

Ryan

SM 233 Iteration

Boston, MA, USA

 

 

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:10 PM, 'Mohammad Shirloo' mshirloo@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Ryan;

 

We have a 100A and a 40A charger aboard. If the batteries are being drained to proper levels for optimal life, the 100A charger will only be at max output for 10-15 minutes before the charge rate drops below the max output, so there is minimal advantage in running the two charges together. The disadvantages are, at least to a certain extent, unknown and are dependent on many factors.

 

As far as the shore power connections in other parts of the world, in the Med, there are many marinas and harbors that only have 16A connections. However there are many that also have 32A connections. Some have higher output connections as well. The limiting factor on the Amels, is the shore power connection and wiring to the panel. On our 54, it is sized for 32A. Therefore there is a 32A breaker in the aft lazarette that feeds the panel. You have to check on your SM to see the wire sizing and shore power breaker sizing.

 

The only way to get the full 50A 230V to the panel is by the generator.

 

 

Respectfully;

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 9:39 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

At first glance, I thought it could be dangerous to use multiple smart chargers because they could get into different states, but after thinking through all the possible combinations, I've convinced myself it is actually safe -- provided the total current is less than what the batteries can accept.  It might not produce the optimal results for your battery lifespan, though: they could transition from bulk to acceptance or acceptance to float before the battery is actually ready, because each charger can only sense its own contribution to the charge current.  Chargers in different stages shouldn't fight each other directly because they sense the current/voltage of the system.  Floating at different voltages should be safe; the charger with the lower float voltage would just not be doing anything.  If one or more chargers has a float voltage above that which the batteries are designed to handle, that would be bad... but that's also bad with just one charger.

 

I do not think it is safe to mix smart chargers and dumb chargers without knowing exactly how the dumb charger works.  It is conceivable that the dumb charger just puts out a constant voltage, and would act as a sink for a higher voltage -- then you'd get the two chargers directly fighting each other, possibly tripping breakers, and definitely wasting power.  The same could happen with two dumb chargers that have different voltage setpoints; presumably the ones Amel installed as stock were configured with the same voltage and/or were smart enough to shut off if they started acting as a sink.

 

As an aside, is a 16A shore power connection typical in some parts of the world?  At 230V, that's about the same wattage as the "small boat" 30A@120V connections in the USA.  A larger yacht like a Super Maramu is expected to connect to 50A@240V in the US, but usually also has the option of connecting to two 30A@120V connections.  I assume you can't connect to two 16A@230V connections because the 230V parts of the world don't use a split-phase power system like we do in the US, but perhaps I'm wrong about that.

 

Thanks,

Ryan

SM 233 Iteration

Boston, MA, USA

 

 

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:11 AM, svperegrinus@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Our solar chargers by Genasun are not properly adjustable to the voltages required by Trojan for our AGM batteries.  So we disconnect solar when on shorepower to prevent over-voltage charging of full batteries.

 

We routinely turn on both battery chargers as follows:

 

(1) When charging from the generator.

(2) When we will have shore power for only one day or two.

 

Evidently after one hour or less the batteries charge at less than 100 A, and at this point it makes no difference whether you have one or both chargers on.  So we routinely turn one off.

 

Cheers,

 

Peregrinus

SM2K N. 350 (2002)

Herzliya

 

 
Re: electrolysis on jib furling gearbox?

Peter de Groot
 

Thanks Ryan, Mark, Eric and Alexandre,
All good advice, and yes electrolysis is not the correct term.  I'll be pursuing several solutions.  I sincerely appreciate the responses and suggestions

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
Re: 24 Volt Outlet

Duane Siegfri
 

Vladimir,  thanks for your reply.  It seems reasonable if I don't go over half the rated 12V amps.

Eric,  My boat has 220 volt outlets at the aft cabin desk and in the aft head instead of 24 volt.  I had not thought of plugging it into the fan above the aft cabin desk though!  That will be good for a temporary solution.

Thanks,
Duane
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] 24 Volt Outlet

eric freedman
 

Duane,

We have a 24 volt plug at my table in my cabin and in the head.

It is the same plug as on the fans. You could change the plug on your cpap machine and plug it into one of your fan outlets in your cabin.

Oddly enough all four of my regular crew use CPAP machines.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 6:07 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] 24 Volt Outlet

 

 

I'm going to put a 24 volt outlet in the aft cabin to run a CPAP (less than 2 amps at 24V) that has a 12/24 volt transformer block on the chord with a cigarette style plug.  

 

My problem is I can't seem to find a 24 volt outlet.  Blue Seas has a 12 volt cigarette style outlet but doesn't say anything about 24 volts.  

 

Am I missing something?  

 

Thanks,

Duane

Wanderer, SM#477

 

PS: I'm also thinking of repurposing one of the two prong outlets I have at the nav station for 24volts if I can't figure anything else out.

 

 
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

eric freedman
 

My old cable was the metric equivalent of 10 gauge. Must have been a change in the wiring.

In any event if you use 10 gauge you can use up to 30 amps.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 5:07 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

 

The cable on our SM is rated 16A. There is a previous discussion on this forum where Olivier confirmed that.

Cheers

Alan

Elyse SM437

 
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

eric freedman
 

Brent,

The time delays are standard on my Climma 9eh AC units.

If you open up the black control box, mounted to the white panel is a small electrical device with a knob on it with numbers. That is the number of seconds that the unit is delayed before the compressor starts.

 

The same timer is mounted in the transfer case of my generator transfer case. It prevents the electric going to the panel until the generator has run for a bit.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 4:22 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

 

Eric, are the timers on the three cabin air conditioners for staggered starting that you referred to part of the later version SM design or something you retrofitted?  It’s an awesome idea as three compressors firing up at the same time can draw a lot of current. Thanks! 

 

Brent Cameron

Future SM owner. 

6S+


On Jan 10, 2018, at 3:17 PM, 'sailormon' kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Looking at the wiring on Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376 it appears that you can draw 25 amps from the genset or shore power without any problem.

I don’t know where the 16 amp figure comes from.

 

The genset I believe is 7.5 kw , yet 25 amps is only 5.75 kw

The original Amel wire is also rated at 30 amps as is all the wiring coming from the transfer case to the main electrical panel.

Kimberlite does not have a circuit breaker in the aft lazarette, just a breaker on the side of the AC panel.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 2:56 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

 

Ryan;

 

The ACs draw about 4-5 A at 230V. So with all three running and the charger and other systems you will exceed the 16A. At the recommendation of Bill Rouse of Ex BeBe and now AmelSchool.com (had to give Bill a plug, he has been of tremendous help to every one here), we installed a power meter which helps greatly in monitoring the current being used on board so we do not exceed the limits of the type of connection that is feeding the panel. In this manner we can turn systems on-off based on what we need to do on board.

 

I'm not sure about the SM, but there should be another breaker just for the shore power, before it gets to the main breaker at the panel. On our 54 it is in the aft lazarette, which is the closets point to the shore power connection. I would think that it would be prudent to have a breaker right where the shore power comes in, so that the wires from the shore power connection to the main panel are not left unprotected.

 

We have spent one winter sailing the Greek Isles. It was the coldest winter in 50 years with temperatures typically in the 30s and winds of force 6-9. We managed to heat the entire boat and run all systems on 16A shore power in most occasions by managing the systems that were used simultaneously. The Amels are extremely well designed to function well in most conditions.

 

We have not made any modifications to the factory installed systems for the past 3 years that we have owned her, and are very happy with the systems as installed by the factory. The suggestion to us from every one when we first joined the group, which we have now come to appreciate, was to not make any modifications until you have used the boat extensively for over a year.

 

 

 

Respectfully;

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 11:19 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

Interesting that so many marinas as so limiting on power.  Is it possible to run all three air conditioners on 16A?  I've never measured the draw.

 

My SM has a shore power cord and main breaker sized for 35A (I was under the impression this is true for all SM).  I believe the generator runs through that same 35A breaker, so that's the max there as well (it's basically moot since it's a 9kW generator).  My shore power cord could use a replacement, so I've been investigating the possibility of upgrading it to handle 50A.  It would be handy to have the extra power to run the heat in the winter.  My boat came from the factory with extra dedicated heater circuits, which I don't think are standard, so it would be no trouble at all to exceed 35A draw from the panel.  The biggest challenge is fitting a larger cord through the conduit to the panel..

 

Ryan

SM 233 Iteration

Boston, MA, USA

 

 

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:10 PM, 'Mohammad Shirloo' mshirloo@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Ryan;

 

We have a 100A and a 40A charger aboard. If the batteries are being drained to proper levels for optimal life, the 100A charger will only be at max output for 10-15 minutes before the charge rate drops below the max output, so there is minimal advantage in running the two charges together. The disadvantages are, at least to a certain extent, unknown and are dependent on many factors.

 

As far as the shore power connections in other parts of the world, in the Med, there are many marinas and harbors that only have 16A connections. However there are many that also have 32A connections. Some have higher output connections as well. The limiting factor on the Amels, is the shore power connection and wiring to the panel. On our 54, it is sized for 32A. Therefore there is a 32A breaker in the aft lazarette that feeds the panel. You have to check on your SM to see the wire sizing and shore power breaker sizing.

 

The only way to get the full 50A 230V to the panel is by the generator.

 

 

Respectfully;

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 9:39 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

At first glance, I thought it could be dangerous to use multiple smart chargers because they could get into different states, but after thinking through all the possible combinations, I've convinced myself it is actually safe -- provided the total current is less than what the batteries can accept.  It might not produce the optimal results for your battery lifespan, though: they could transition from bulk to acceptance or acceptance to float before the battery is actually ready, because each charger can only sense its own contribution to the charge current.  Chargers in different stages shouldn't fight each other directly because they sense the current/voltage of the system.  Floating at different voltages should be safe; the charger with the lower float voltage would just not be doing anything.  If one or more chargers has a float voltage above that which the batteries are designed to handle, that would be bad... but that's also bad with just one charger.

 

I do not think it is safe to mix smart chargers and dumb chargers without knowing exactly how the dumb charger works.  It is conceivable that the dumb charger just puts out a constant voltage, and would act as a sink for a higher voltage -- then you'd get the two chargers directly fighting each other, possibly tripping breakers, and definitely wasting power.  The same could happen with two dumb chargers that have different voltage setpoints; presumably the ones Amel installed as stock were configured with the same voltage and/or were smart enough to shut off if they started acting as a sink.

 

As an aside, is a 16A shore power connection typical in some parts of the world?  At 230V, that's about the same wattage as the "small boat" 30A@120V connections in the USA.  A larger yacht like a Super Maramu is expected to connect to 50A@240V in the US, but usually also has the option of connecting to two 30A@120V connections.  I assume you can't connect to two 16A@230V connections because the 230V parts of the world don't use a split-phase power system like we do in the US, but perhaps I'm wrong about that.

 

Thanks,

Ryan

SM 233 Iteration

Boston, MA, USA

 

 

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:11 AM, svperegrinus@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Our solar chargers by Genasun are not properly adjustable to the voltages required by Trojan for our AGM batteries.  So we disconnect solar when on shorepower to prevent over-voltage charging of full batteries.

 

We routinely turn on both battery chargers as follows:

 

(1) When charging from the generator.

(2) When we will have shore power for only one day or two.

 

Evidently after one hour or less the batteries charge at less than 100 A, and at this point it makes no difference whether you have one or both chargers on.  So we routinely turn one off.

 

Cheers,

 

Peregrinus

SM2K N. 350 (2002)

Herzliya

 

 
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Shore power cord

eric freedman
 

Hi,

I do not understand how you get 220 volts between a hot leg and the neutral in the USA. The Neutral (white) has the same potential as the green ground. Only the connection between the  red and the black gets you 220 volts.

Fair winds

 

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 3:41 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Shore power cord

 

 

Ryan, as Peregrinus, Ipanema has  I a semi-dumb (30 amp)  and a smart (60amp) charger, which use together when charging batteries with the generator.  When the batteries are accepting less than 60 amp I turn off the dumb charger.  So far no issues.

 

The European voltage in 3 phases is 440 between phases and 220 between phase and neutral while in the US is 220 between phases and 110 between phase and neutral.  To get 220 shore power in the US I connect the life and neutral of the cable between two phases of the 60 amp outlet and have the ground connected to the ground of the outlet.  Clearly here the two lines going to the system have a voltage relative to the ground.  I am not sure how much additional electrolysis this may cause but it is the way it was connected when I bought it.
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] 24 Volt Outlet

VLADIMIR SONSEV
 

Cigarette lighter 12 V reseptical is good for 24 V

Vladimir
SM 345 "Life is Good"

On Jan 10, 2018 19:07, "sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

I'm going to put a 24 volt outlet in the aft cabin to run a CPAP (less than 2 amps at 24V) that has a 12/24 volt transformer block on the chord with a cigarette style plug.  


My problem is I can't seem to find a 24 volt outlet.  Blue Seas has a 12 volt cigarette style outlet but doesn't say anything about 24 volts.  


Am I missing something?  


Thanks,

Duane

Wanderer, SM#477


PS: I'm also thinking of repurposing one of the two prong outlets I have at the nav station for 24volts if I can't figure anything else out.
24 Volt Outlet

Duane Siegfri
 

I'm going to put a 24 volt outlet in the aft cabin to run a CPAP (less than 2 amps at 24V) that has a 12/24 volt transformer block on the chord with a cigarette style plug.  


My problem is I can't seem to find a 24 volt outlet.  Blue Seas has a 12 volt cigarette style outlet but doesn't say anything about 24 volts.  


Am I missing something?  


Thanks,

Duane

Wanderer, SM#477


PS: I'm also thinking of repurposing one of the two prong outlets I have at the nav station for 24volts if I can't figure anything else out.
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

Brent Cameron
 

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

Alan Leslie
 

The cable on our SM is rated 16A. There is a previous discussion on this forum where Olivier confirmed that.
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Gasket for Hatches

Patrick McAneny
 

Kent , Pretty sure this is what I bought and it fit perfectly , there is several sizes available , but I think 1/2" X 1/2" is what I ordered. Take a measurement of your hatches to be sure. It comes from 25 ft. to 100 ft. rolls. I had plenty on board, could have given to you in St. Michaels. Say Hi! to Iris .
Hope this helps,
Pat 

-----Original Message-----
From: karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Wed, Jan 10, 2018 1:03 pm
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Gasket for Hatches

 
Hi all,
RigRite says it will be a month or more before they have Goiot Tradition hatch gaskets available.

Does anyone have another source? Joel, is there anyone in S Florida who would have them?

Has anyone used another gasket material?

Does anyone have the dimensions and hardness of the Goiot gaskets?

HatchMasters says they've sold a round profile gasket for these hatches, but won't give a size recommendation.

Thanks for any help.

Kent
SM243 Kristy
Currently Ft Lauderdale
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Brent,

The Climma A/C compressor timers are staggered in a SM. As i remember it, 10, 15, & 20 seconds.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970
Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

Brent Cameron
 

Eric, are the timers on the three cabin air conditioners for staggered starting that you referred to part of the later version SM design or something you retrofitted?  It’s an awesome idea as three compressors firing up at the same time can draw a lot of current. Thanks! 

Brent Cameron
Future SM owner. 

6S+

On Jan 10, 2018, at 3:17 PM, 'sailormon' kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Looking at the wiring on Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376 it appears that you can draw 25 amps from the genset or shore power without any problem.

I don’t know where the 16 amp figure comes from.

 

The genset I believe is 7.5 kw , yet 25 amps is only 5.75 kw

The original Amel wire is also rated at 30 amps as is all the wiring coming from the transfer case to the main electrical panel.

Kimberlite does not have a circuit breaker in the aft lazarette, just a breaker on the side of the AC panel.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 2:56 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

 

Ryan;

 

The ACs draw about 4-5 A at 230V. So with all three running and the charger and other systems you will exceed the 16A. At the recommendation of Bill Rouse of Ex BeBe and now AmelSchool.com (had to give Bill a plug, he has been of tremendous help to every one here), we installed a power meter which helps greatly in monitoring the current being used on board so we do not exceed the limits of the type of connection that is feeding the panel. In this manner we can turn systems on-off based on what we need to do on board.

 

I'm not sure about the SM, but there should be another breaker just for the shore power, before it gets to the main breaker at the panel. On our 54 it is in the aft lazarette, which is the closets point to the shore power connection. I would think that it would be prudent to have a breaker right where the shore power comes in, so that the wires from the shore power connection to the main panel are not left unprotected.

 

We have spent one winter sailing the Greek Isles. It was the coldest winter in 50 years with temperatures typically in the 30s and winds of force 6-9. We managed to heat the entire boat and run all systems on 16A shore power in most occasions by managing the systems that were used simultaneously. The Amels are extremely well designed to function well in most conditions.

 

We have not made any modifications to the factory installed systems for the past 3 years that we have owned her, and are very happy with the systems as installed by the factory. The suggestion to us from every one when we first joined the group, which we have now come to appreciate, was to not make any modifications until you have used the boat extensively for over a year.

 

 

 

Respectfully;

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 11:19 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

Interesting that so many marinas as so limiting on power.  Is it possible to run all three air conditioners on 16A?  I've never measured the draw.

 

My SM has a shore power cord and main breaker sized for 35A (I was under the impression this is true for all SM).  I believe the generator runs through that same 35A breaker, so that's the max there as well (it's basically moot since it's a 9kW generator).  My shore power cord could use a replacement, so I've been investigating the possibility of upgrading it to handle 50A.  It would be handy to have the extra power to run the heat in the winter.  My boat came from the factory with extra dedicated heater circuits, which I don't think are standard, so it would be no trouble at all to exceed 35A draw from the panel.  The biggest challenge is fitting a larger cord through the conduit to the panel.

 

Ryan

SM 233 Iteration

Boston, MA, USA

 

 

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:10 PM, 'Mohammad Shirloo' mshirloo@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Ryan;

 

We have a 100A and a 40A charger aboard. If the batteries are being drained to proper levels for optimal life, the 100A charger will only be at max output for 10-15 minutes before the charge rate drops below the max output, so there is minimal advantage in running the two charges together. The disadvantages are, at least to a certain extent, unknown and are dependent on many factors.

 

As far as the shore power connections in other parts of the world, in the Med, there are many marinas and harbors that only have 16A connections. However there are many that also have 32A connections. Some have higher output connections as well. The limiting factor on the Amels, is the shore power connection and wiring to the panel. On our 54, it is sized for 32A. Therefore there is a 32A breaker in the aft lazarette that feeds the panel. You have to check on your SM to see the wire sizing and shore power breaker sizing.

 

The only way to get the full 50A 230V to the panel is by the generator.

 

 

Respectfully;

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 9:39 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

At first glance, I thought it could be dangerous to use multiple smart chargers because they could get into different states, but after thinking through all the possible combinations, I've convinced myself it is actually safe -- provided the total current is less than what the batteries can accept.  It might not produce the optimal results for your battery lifespan, though: they could transition from bulk to acceptance or acceptance to float before the battery is actually ready, because each charger can only sense its own contribution to the charge current.  Chargers in different stages shouldn't fight each other directly because they sense the current/voltage of the system.  Floating at different voltages should be safe; the charger with the lower float voltage would just not be doing anything.  If one or more chargers has a float voltage above that which the batteries are designed to handle, that would be bad... but that's also bad with just one charger.

 

I do not think it is safe to mix smart chargers and dumb chargers without knowing exactly how the dumb charger works.  It is conceivable that the dumb charger just puts out a constant voltage, and would act as a sink for a higher voltage -- then you'd get the two chargers directly fighting each other, possibly tripping breakers, and definitely wasting power.  The same could happen with two dumb chargers that have different voltage setpoints; presumably the ones Amel installed as stock were configured with the same voltage and/or were smart enough to shut off if they started acting as a sink.

 

As an aside, is a 16A shore power connection typical in some parts of the world?  At 230V, that's about the same wattage as the "small boat" 30A@120V connections in the USA.  A larger yacht like a Super Maramu is expected to connect to 50A@240V in the US, but usually also has the option of connecting to two 30A@120V connections.  I assume you can't connect to two 16A@230V connections because the 230V parts of the world don't use a split-phase power system like we do in the US, but perhaps I'm wrong about that.

 

Thanks,

Ryan

SM 233 Iteration

Boston, MA, USA

 

 

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:11 AM, svperegrinus@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Our solar chargers by Genasun are not properly adjustable to the voltages required by Trojan for our AGM batteries.  So we disconnect solar when on shorepower to prevent over-voltage charging of full batteries.

 

We routinely turn on both battery chargers as follows:

 

(1) When charging from the generator.

(2) When we will have shore power for only one day or two.

 

Evidently after one hour or less the batteries charge at less than 100 A, and at this point it makes no difference whether you have one or both chargers on.  So we routinely turn one off.

 

Cheers,

 

Peregrinus

SM2K N. 350 (2002)

Herzliya