Date   

Re: Wifi extenders and the bonding system

 

Scott,

I hope you guys are safe and healthy.

Since I am a simple person who enjoys simple explanations, let me jump in with what I think will help you. 

The Amel Bonding Checking System on your Amel 54 looks for a connection between the Amel Bonding System and either a positive or a negative connection to the 24-volt battery bank.

Because the A-54, connects many additional things to the Bonding System than previous models, you have a greater chance of some sort of bridge (connection) between things physically mounted on the life rail, lifeline, masts, or anything connected to these things. Boats prior to the 54 did not have all of these additional Bonding System connections. And remember, it could be something the previous owner or his hired technician did. If the Amel Bonding System is compromised by a "wrong" installation somewhere on the boat, 100% of the bonding system is likewise somewhat compromised.

So, when you physically mount a device on the mast or any of the above-interconnected devices, if that device has an internal electrical circuit (+ or -) connected to the case, by mounting it, you have connected 24-volt battery bank voltage to the Amel Bonding System. To further confuse both of us, the Amel Bonding System is almost universally misunderstood by nearly 100% of people you may hire to work on your boat. Something wired or connected wrong by these good-intentioned folks can totally incapacitate the benefit that the Amel Bonding System brings to you.

On another related matter, it seems that nearly all engine repowers that I have recently inspected were done without 12-volt negative isolation. Of course, the C-Drive will likely suffer a long-term death when 12-volt isolation is ignored. I am guessing 4-6 years and poof!

Bill 
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 2:07 PM Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:
Hi all,

This is really a question about bonding, which I'm very weak on. 

We have been using a Wirie Pro wifi extender on our A54 for over 2 years and while the Wirie didn't work that great, I separately used the Ubiquiti Bullet M2HP titanium which was part of the package and that worked great. It was mounted on a plastic Pelican case and therefore electrically isolated.

Recently, it died and I needed a replacement but the Bullet M2hp-Ti is no longer being made. I went for an Alfa Tube 2HP, which is generally quite similar.
https://store.rokland.com/products/alfa-tube-2hp-802-11n-long-distance-outdoor-wi-fi-poe-ap-cpe-ip68

The problem with all these devices is that the antenna port is typically connected internally to device power. So when you mount the device on a rail or on the masthead, it sends voltage to the exterior metal and hence the Amel bonding system. The old Bullet was mounted by Wirie Pro in a plastic Pelican case, but I am almost certain the Bullet's antenna port was connected to power also. The Alfa's design doesn't make it easy to mount on the same Pelican case.
 
Since our A54 is 24v,  I had to use a DC-DC up-converter to get 48v which is then fed into a Passive PoE Injector for my Alfa. The PoE injector is just a simple device that adds power to some of the wire pairs in the the ethernet cable - that is how the device gets power. Once I plugged in the powered ethernet cable into the masthead mounted Alfa, the tester light on our Amel for BOTH + and -  lit up and using a multimeter I saw voltage in our rigging. That is obviously not good.

A few questions:

1) Is the fact that the Alfa runs on 48v and the rest of the boat is at 24v the reason why the Amel tester lights up? If this is the case, I can buy another wifi extender that will run on 24v. That doesn't seem likely as the 24v device's antenna connector would still be energized, but I figured I'd ask.

2) The other option to run the Alfa is a 220vAC power brick run on inverter which then provides 48vDC to the Alfa. Very ineffiecient but in this case, the Amel tester light does NOT light up, probably because the power brick isolates the 48v being provided from the boat's 24v battery circuit? But I presume the rigging is still being energized with 48v? But without a way for the power to complete the circuit through the rigging and get back to the source of the 48vdc (power brick), is this not a problem with respect to corrosion?

I hope my question is explained well enough because my understanding of bonding is quite thin. Many boaters use these wifi extenders and no one has talked about this issue but then again, most of them don't deal with our floating ground bonding system.
 
 
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Sand Blasting

Patrick McAneny
 

A few weeks ago I mentioned that I intended to have by boat sandblasted , I paid for it ,but they did something different,maybe better. I went to see what progress had been made on repairs . The bottom paint ,several layers was mostly gone ,with maybe a half thin coat still attached to the hull. I was confused ,since I expected it to be blasted down to the gel coat . What they did was to use a 5000 psi powerwasher with a rotating turbo head which blasted most of the paint off . I missed that part ,but while I was there a workman used a 7" orbital sander with 60 grit to take it the rest of the way down to the gel coat. He did a 20 sq. ft. area in about 15 minutes . So it should take about 9 hrs of sanding. What he did looks perfect and no concerns for damage to the gel coat. 
Just thought I would put this out there, as another option to sand or soda blasting
Pat
SM Shenanigans 


Wifi extenders and the bonding system

Scott SV Tengah
 

Hi all,

This is really a question about bonding, which I'm very weak on. 

We have been using a Wirie Pro wifi extender on our A54 for over 2 years and while the Wirie didn't work that great, I separately used the Ubiquiti Bullet M2HP titanium which was part of the package and that worked great. It was mounted on a plastic Pelican case and therefore electrically isolated.

Recently, it died and I needed a replacement but the Bullet M2hp-Ti is no longer being made. I went for an Alfa Tube 2HP, which is generally quite similar.
https://store.rokland.com/products/alfa-tube-2hp-802-11n-long-distance-outdoor-wi-fi-poe-ap-cpe-ip68

The problem with all these devices is that the antenna port is typically connected internally to device power. So when you mount the device on a rail or on the masthead, it sends voltage to the exterior metal and hence the Amel bonding system. The old Bullet was mounted by Wirie Pro in a plastic Pelican case, but I am almost certain the Bullet's antenna port was connected to power also. The Alfa's design doesn't make it easy to mount on the same Pelican case.
 
Since our A54 is 24v,  I had to use a DC-DC up-converter to get 48v which is then fed into a Passive PoE Injector for my Alfa. The PoE injector is just a simple device that adds power to some of the wire pairs in the the ethernet cable - that is how the device gets power. Once I plugged in the powered ethernet cable into the masthead mounted Alfa, the tester light on our Amel for BOTH + and -  lit up and using a multimeter I saw voltage in our rigging. That is obviously not good.

A few questions:

1) Is the fact that the Alfa runs on 48v and the rest of the boat is at 24v the reason why the Amel tester lights up? If this is the case, I can buy another wifi extender that will run on 24v. That doesn't seem likely as the 24v device's antenna connector would still be energized, but I figured I'd ask.

2) The other option to run the Alfa is a 220vAC power brick run on inverter which then provides 48vDC to the Alfa. Very ineffiecient but in this case, the Amel tester light does NOT light up, probably because the power brick isolates the 48v being provided from the boat's 24v battery circuit? But I presume the rigging is still being energized with 48v? But without a way for the power to complete the circuit through the rigging and get back to the source of the 48vdc (power brick), is this not a problem with respect to corrosion?

I hope my question is explained well enough because my understanding of bonding is quite thin. Many boaters use these wifi extenders and no one has talked about this issue but then again, most of them don't deal with our floating ground bonding system.
 
 
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Re: Switch to LiFePO4

Brent Cameron
 

Thanks but I think you are looking for this video…. The other one was a narrowboat guy who seemed happy with his setup.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgoIocPgOug

Brent

On Aug 17, 2020, 1:55 PM -0400, Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222 <Bijorka@...>, wrote:
Je all ,
In the link you find a you Tube Video from victron , it explaniert what Happens Wien you London li battreis with a small ore wrang altinator

Berry intresting

https://youtu.be/ZyIJRjJtCR0
Elja
SM Balu 222


Von meinem iPad gesendet




--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada


Re: Surveyor in Annapolis area?

Doug Smith
 

A second vote for Mike Previti.  He surveyed two of my previous boats, and when I spoke to him about my upcoming purchase of my Amel 54, he was very knowledgeable about them, and was able to describe things to look for.  Solid guy with tons of practical experience.

 

Doug Smith

S/V Aventura, Amel 54-113

Deltaville, VA USA

 

From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Aras <aras.grinius@...>
Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 17, 2020 at 12:57 PM
To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Group Moderators" <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Surveyor in Annapolis area?

 

Michael Previti. He surveyed my Sharki for Insurance purposes.  He is down in Solomons.

Mike Previti

President; PMC, Inc.

410 610 8761

 

Aras

SV FIASCO Sharki #163 1988

 

On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 12:46 PM Kevin Schmit <kevschmit64@...> wrote:

Can anyone recommend a good Marine Surveyor for an Amel in Annapolis MD area?

KS




--

Aras Grinius


Re: Switch to LiFePO4

Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222
 

Je all ,
In the link you find a you Tube Video from victron , it explaniert what Happens Wien you London li battreis with a small ore wrang altinator

Berry intresting

https://youtu.be/ZyIJRjJtCR0
Elja
SM Balu 222


Von meinem iPad gesendet


Water hoses in engine room

Vic Fryzel
 

Hi,

For the first time, I'm looking at replacing a lot of or ~all of the hoses/valves that deliver fresh or raw water in the engine room.

Some of mine have become extremely rusted or are a bit split. A lot of the hose clamps are rusted closed. And some of the valves are barely usable because of some corrosion or rust. I'm hoping folks might be able to help me with a few questions:

1. Is there a type or class of hose I need to use? Any other hose requirements? Are transparent hoses okay?
2. Should I be double clamping each hose end?
3. Is there a valve material or SAE/metric requirement for both fresh and salt water?
4. When cutting the hoses, do I need any sort of special tool?
5. Similar questions for the bilge pump hoses specifically. Not sure if there are requirements of these?
6. Any retailers that sell this stuff that come to mind? I have a West Marine close by, but am happy to go elsewhere. For reference my boat is in San Diego right now.
7. After I replace this stuff, is there any specific type of maintenance other than visual inspection to keep things in good working order?
8. For my hot water heater, do folks have any references they could link me to on how to clean it? I don't think it's been cleaned/serviced in 6+ years.

Thanks!
-Vic "Moon Dog" SM248


Re: Surveyor in Annapolis area?

Aras Grinius
 

Michael Previti. He surveyed my Sharki for Insurance purposes.  He is down in Solomons.

Mike Previti

President; PMC, Inc.

410 610 8761


Aras
SV FIASCO Sharki #163 1988


On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 12:46 PM Kevin Schmit <kevschmit64@...> wrote:
Can anyone recommend a good Marine Surveyor for an Amel in Annapolis MD area?

KS





--
Aras Grinius


Surveyor in Annapolis area?

Kevin Schmit
 

Can anyone recommend a good Marine Surveyor for an Amel in Annapolis MD area?

KS


Re: Anchor washing pump model

Slavko Despotovic
 

I disassembled pump, clean it and put it back as it was. Starts working, but after  30-40 seconds the fuse goes off. I can reset and it starts again and after 30 seconds the fuse gores off. No water comes on anchor. Is there anything that can block the water or the way to anchor?
The pump is REYA A 66B, 24V, 10A

Thank you.

Slavko


Re: Power usage data for Washer dryer on Amel 55

Arno Luijten
 

Whatever. It may be a 30 sec. capacity. It’s like audio amplifiers with their heavily inflated power rating. The thing is 2kW continuously, the only number you can count on.
Bad Mastervolt...
Regards,

Arno


Re: Power usage data for Washer dryer on Amel 55

Billy Newport
 

Peak is actually 5kw. See here: https://www.mastervolt.com/products/mass-sine-24v/mass-sine-24-2500-230v-50hz/

2.5kw is their P30 number, I don't know what P30 means, 30 second pulse? 5kw might be momentary peak for motors and so on.

Billy
SV Coder
A55-56


Re: Power usage data for Washer dryer on Amel 55

Arno Luijten
 

Well, as I stated earlier, your Mastervolt is actually only 2kW. The 2.5 kW is peak load...

Cheers,

Arno Luijten,
SV Luna,
A54-121


Power usage data for Washer dryer on Amel 55

Billy Newport
 
Edited

I added a Shelly EM AC monitor to my MV 2500 inverter today so I did a wash/dry cycle on my LG Direct 7 machine and here is the data. So, max draw of around 1.8kw, the motor itself uses < 300W, the heater is the bulk of the power draw. Notice that the inverter voltage drops from 234V to 225V at 1.7kw draw, makes you wonder what the voltage would be at the rated 2.5kw draw. I added the screen shot at my Album here also as the quality of the attached photo seems pretty bad. https://amelyachtowners.groups.io/g/main/album?id=252162


Re: Switch to LiFePO4

Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222
 

He Brant

so I see many problems I can't control as an electrolaie ( inexperienced)
I don't know that plug and play

Elja


Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Re: Switch to LiFePO4

Brent Cameron
 

All of those leads are tied together at a common post so it’s putting each pair in parallel and unless the offending battery completely disconnects (i.e. breaks the circuit), the second battery can get back fed 24V from the rest of the bank. This is why it’s so important that your batteries are well balanced and the leads are the same length as any difference in resistance can result in a battery getting a significant portion of the full capability of the load (which on Amel’s can be very considerable with things like the bow thruster, anchor windless, A/C, appliances, etc). 

In a “drop in replacement “ battery like the Battle Born, if the internal BMS (battery management system) is sealed and the battery can’t tell an external charge source when to stop charging or a load to stop discharging (which is the definition of a drop in replacement) it CAN lead to problems. 

The current rating on many of these internal BMS systems is nothing like the full current that can be run through the loads generated on an Amel. Many drop in replacement batteries use tiny little MOFSET switches as the BMS on/off switching and these things can’t handle even the TYPICAL loads of an Amel. Remember that for a battery rated at a continuous load of say 100A, you are asking for potentially ALL of that load to pass through a printed circuit board, a few short light gauge wires (nothing like your battery cables), and some solid state FET switches. That’s a big ask. 

Remember that if your parallel wiring isn’t perfect (i.e. the leads aren't all the same length and the crimp connections don’t all have the same resistance, some of those batteries are going to be seeing a LOT more than 1C charge/discharge rate so relying on a tiny switch that can theoretically handle only a fraction of 1C is problematic to say the least. 

This can also be problematic to your charging sources like alternators that might not like seeing 100A suddenly disappear with no communication. Those diodes will go poof and at a minimum the voltages will go to about 80V just before that happens so your fancy electronics may go poof too. At a minimum, I’d install an external alternator protection device to prevent issues. 

I’d be happier if BB allowed their internal BMS to communicate with the entire system like what happens with Mastervolt on a CANbus system but I guess that’s one way they are selling for a fraction of the price. 

Brent

On Aug 16, 2020, 4:40 AM -0400, Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222 <Bijorka@...>, wrote:
He all

On the SM and I assume on the 54/55 each pair of batteries 2x12 V / 24 V is supplied by a seperate plus and minus . ?
so every package has one
extra line to load .
therefore, for solution 24v 50 AH, each battery itself should decide when the load is terminated ? The battery is not used to be used in the battery.

Elja
SM Balu
222

Von meinem iPhone gesendet




--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada


Re: Switch to LiFePO4

Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222
 

He all

On the SM and I assume on the 54/55 each pair of batteries 2x12 V / 24 V is supplied by a seperate plus and minus . ?
so every package has one
extra line to load .
therefore, for solution 24v 50 AH, each battery itself should decide when the load is terminated ? The battery is not used to be used in the battery.

Elja
SM Balu
222

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Re: Switch to LiFePO4

Brent Cameron
 

I asked that exact question of the BB guys and they assured us that the second battery would refuse any charge as a result of being wired in series (I gather because the first one is taken completely out of the circuit by its internal BMS). That said, it’s relying on an internal solid state relay to switch off 100A so I personally am still not totally convinced it’s totally kosher but I guess if they stand behind that architecture with a 10 year warranty you aren't out much (except the inconvenience somewhere in the South Pacific). I think it is one more reason to go for the 50A 24VDC batteries instead of wiring two 100A 12VDC batteries in series. 

Brent

On Aug 15, 2020, 4:59 PM -0400, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...>, wrote:
One last thought:

If BB batteries have internal BMS that can disconnect charging and load on a battery level, some questions come up.  For example, if battery 1, consisting of 4 cells, has a high voltage condition, the BMS in that battery stops charging in Battery1 only. 

At first glance, that seems ideal. You may not need an external charge or load disconnect circuit because the battery experiencing a fault just stops accepting charge or stops driving load if there's a high cell voltage or low cell voltage condition, respectively.

My question is what happens then? I only ask this because I don't know but it could cause problems. Say you have 12 batteries = 6 pairs of 12v batteries. Each 12v battery pair is in serial to create 24v and each pair of batteries connected in parallel to the other 5 pairs to create your AH total. Say Battery1 has a high cell voltage condition and the internal BMS cuts off charging to this battery, but still allows load. That means that Battery 1 is still connected to its Battery2 serial pair and hence connected to the entire bank. The charger is still outputting 26+ volts. But for this battery1-battery2 pair, only one of them is accepting charge. Is that ok?


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada


Re: Switch to LiFePO4

Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222
 

I think all batteriecompartment from SM , 54/55 are watertight

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Re: Switch to LiFePO4

Billy Newport
 

Well,
I learned something today. The battery compartment on a 55 is watertight? Good to know. All MV is attractive given the bus and so on.