Date   
Genoa Sheet Length

thomas.kleman <no_reply@...>
 

Hi again- I own SM2K #422 L'ORIENT; When I purchased my boat, I replaced the original genoa sheet with one measured exactly to the old one........only later did I discover that the when the genoa is poled out the lazy line isn't long enough to pass through the opposite pole and to the winch. I'm  not currently on my boat. Does anyone know the length the genoa sheet would need to be to pass through both poles ?

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Helm cover

Jean-Pierre's MacBook Air <jgermain@...>
 

Hello Pat & Alexandre,

I have been exposed to insurance companies internal workings in the past.  I will play the devil’s advocate here so don’t shot the messenger.

- Their first reaction is to refuse payment due to… name some excuse.

- Then they negotiate for a lesser value than claimed… and normally, they will succeed as the insured normally cannot afford the mounting lawyers bills.

One important point to remember in Alexandre’s case, is that he spent 3 days removing the spares from his boat and moved to a “bunker like” hotel.  They will latch on this to force the responsibility to Alexandre… (why did you not sail your boat away?? Will be the first question and regardless of his answer, the next question will be… “why did you remove the spares from your boat and move to “bunker”?

I hope owners who suffered damages due to the hurricanes of this past season receive fair treatment from their insurer;… but don’t expect miracles!

Best of luck to you Alexandre,


Jean-Pierre Germain
SY Eleuthera, SM 007
Panama.


On 22 Nov 2017, at 08:01, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Alex, I had forgotten it was your boat that was hit in Nassau , I remember how long that took to to resolve , if it was resolved. You have had more than your share of damage and hassles with insurance/repairs . I have Pantaenius and without a question , they replaced every piece of electronics on my boat ($58,000) total , all new and better equipment , with no cost to me. So I can't bring pressure , but if you are not treated fairly , I would urge owners insured with your company  to cancel their policies and sight your treatment for their cancellation . 

Stay Strong,
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Wed, Nov 22, 2017 6:48 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Helm cover

 
Thanks Pat.  

I hope the cover will be ok, may be because it was in a compartment where water was not exposed to the sun (so no growth). Otherwise it is sad to see the growth slowly taking over…  

Based on my experience 3.5 years ago in Nassau (a boat lost control and damaged my bow pulpit) (and my insurance agreed I was at zero fault) I knew it would be a fight.  
They are also doing the exact same thing with Rafael, I will write all about it. 

Anyway, have a great day. 

Sincerely, Alexandre

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 11/21/17, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Helm cover
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2017, 4:01 PM


 









Alex,
Keep me posted on the cover , being in water should not have
hurt it much. Sorry your insurance co. is making things
worse for you , as though lack of maintenance would have
been a contributing factor in face of 200 mile winds. 
Good Luck,

Pat




-----Original
Message-----

From: Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>

To: amelyachtowners
<amelyachtowners@...>

Sent: Tue, Nov 21, 2017 4:21 pm

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Helm cover








 













Hello Pat, 





Been so busy I haven’t read many of the forum message for
the last 9 days. 


But just read this one out of the blue.  





I don’t think I removed it from the vessel.  


I think know where it is (in the life raft storage).  


Once the vessel is raised (2 weeks?) I will remove it and
see if it is ok.  





But I did save the cockpit extension.  





General information, as it might take me another week to
have time to read the forum message. So if meanwhile you
need to contact me, please email me directly to uster@...





I just spent 55 hours searching and organizing all the
invoices I could found on the maintenance I did for the last
5 years.  


My lawyers are pretty happy with the work (I don’t think
the insurance will be).  


I still have a lot to do this week.  


Then will be back making the inventory.  





When things calm down, I will give a full detail report on
the forum.  


Many of you will be VERY surprised and people insured
through De Lassee should search for other insurances.  





Sincerely, Alexandre





--------------------------------------------


On Tue, 11/21/17, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:





Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Helm cover


To: amelyachtowners@...


Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2017, 2:53 PM








 





























Alex, Do


you have the vinyl helm cover for sale. My wife threw
ours


away a couple years ago, can't tell you why ,
neither


can she. I was hoping to find one to borrow and use as a


template. I hope things are getting much better for you


,you've been thru Hell .


Thanks, 





Pat





SM Shenanigans













Re: Anchor chain channel liner

thomas.kleman <no_reply@...>
 

Wow- great idea; hadn't thought about stainless. Thanks.

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Alarm Sound

Chuck_Kim_Joy
 

Have a safe flight. Stay positive. Worry is a killer. Keep us posted. 

Chuck 


On Nov 21, 2017, at 3:27 PM, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Not much of a clear response from the marina. Getting on a flight to Greece tonight.

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Helm cover

Patrick McAneny
 

Alex, I had forgotten it was your boat that was hit in Nassau , I remember how long that took to to resolve , if it was resolved. You have had more than your share of damage and hassles with insurance/repairs . I have Pantaenius and without a question , they replaced every piece of electronics on my boat ($58,000) total , all new and better equipment , with no cost to me. So I can't bring pressure , but if you are not treated fairly , I would urge owners insured with your company  to cancel their policies and sight your treatment for their cancellation . 
Stay Strong,
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Wed, Nov 22, 2017 6:48 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Helm cover

 
Thanks Pat.

I hope the cover will be ok, may be because it was in a compartment where water was not exposed to the sun (so no growth). Otherwise it is sad to see the growth slowly taking over…

Based on my experience 3.5 years ago in Nassau (a boat lost control and damaged my bow pulpit) (and my insurance agreed I was at zero fault) I knew it would be a fight.
They are also doing the exact same thing with Rafael, I will write all about it.

Anyway, have a great day.

Sincerely, Alexandre

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 11/21/17, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Helm cover
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2017, 4:01 PM


 









Alex,
Keep me posted on the cover , being in water should not have
hurt it much. Sorry your insurance co. is making things
worse for you , as though lack of maintenance would have
been a contributing factor in face of 200 mile winds. 
Good Luck,

Pat




-----Original
Message-----

From: Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>

To: amelyachtowners
<amelyachtowners@...>

Sent: Tue, Nov 21, 2017 4:21 pm

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Helm cover








 













Hello Pat,





Been so busy I haven’t read many of the forum message for
the last 9 days.


But just read this one out of the blue.





I don’t think I removed it from the vessel.


I think know where it is (in the life raft storage).


Once the vessel is raised (2 weeks?) I will remove it and
see if it is ok.





But I did save the cockpit extension.





General information, as it might take me another week to
have time to read the forum message. So if meanwhile you
need to contact me, please email me directly to uster@...





I just spent 55 hours searching and organizing all the
invoices I could found on the maintenance I did for the last
5 years.


My lawyers are pretty happy with the work (I don’t think
the insurance will be).


I still have a lot to do this week.


Then will be back making the inventory.





When things calm down, I will give a full detail report on
the forum.


Many of you will be VERY surprised and people insured
through De Lassee should search for other insurances.





Sincerely, Alexandre





--------------------------------------------


On Tue, 11/21/17, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:





Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Helm cover


To: amelyachtowners@...


Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2017, 2:53 PM








 





























Alex, Do


you have the vinyl helm cover for sale. My wife threw
ours


away a couple years ago, can't tell you why ,
neither


can she. I was hoping to find one to borrow and use as a


template. I hope things are getting much better for you


,you've been thru Hell .


Thanks, 





Pat





SM Shenanigans











Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Helm cover

Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Thanks Pat.

I hope the cover will be ok, may be because it was in a compartment where water was not exposed to the sun (so no growth). Otherwise it is sad to see the growth slowly taking over…

Based on my experience 3.5 years ago in Nassau (a boat lost control and damaged my bow pulpit) (and my insurance agreed I was at zero fault) I knew it would be a fight.
They are also doing the exact same thing with Rafael, I will write all about it.

Anyway, have a great day.

Sincerely, Alexandre



--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 11/21/17, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Helm cover
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2017, 4:01 PM


 









Alex,
Keep me posted on the cover , being in water should not have
hurt it much. Sorry your insurance co. is making things
worse for you , as though lack of maintenance would have
been a contributing factor in face of 200 mile winds. 
Good Luck,

Pat




-----Original
Message-----

From: Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>

To: amelyachtowners
<amelyachtowners@...>

Sent: Tue, Nov 21, 2017 4:21 pm

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Helm cover








 













Hello Pat,





Been so busy I haven’t read many of the forum message for
the last 9 days.


But just read this one out of the blue.





I don’t think I removed it from the vessel.


I think know where it is (in the life raft storage).


Once the vessel is raised (2 weeks?) I will remove it and
see if it is ok.





But I did save the cockpit extension.





General information, as it might take me another week to
have time to read the forum message. So if meanwhile you
need to contact me, please email me directly to uster@...





I just spent 55 hours searching and organizing all the
invoices I could found on the maintenance I did for the last
5 years.


My lawyers are pretty happy with the work (I don’t think
the insurance will be).


I still have a lot to do this week.


Then will be back making the inventory.





When things calm down, I will give a full detail report on
the forum.


Many of you will be VERY surprised and people insured
through De Lassee should search for other insurances.





Sincerely, Alexandre





--------------------------------------------


On Tue, 11/21/17, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:





Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Helm cover


To: amelyachtowners@...


Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2017, 2:53 PM








 





























Alex, Do


you have the vinyl helm cover for sale. My wife threw
ours


away a couple years ago, can't tell you why ,
neither


can she. I was hoping to find one to borrow and use as a


template. I hope things are getting much better for you


,you've been thru Hell .


Thanks, 





Pat





SM Shenanigans

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Santorin tigres

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Antonio,

It is 1200. The 1500 has only been available for less than 10 years...maybe 6-7. I believe they are the exact same size, but double check that.


CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

   

On Nov 22, 2017 05:15, "SN 108 Vagabundo stilemare@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi owners,
I want to change my windlasses on my Santorin that's 20 years old. Does someone remember If is 1500 or 1200 watts? I remember 1200.
Thanks
Antonio
Sn 108 vagabundo
On Land in Rome

Inviato da iPhone


Santorin tigres

antonio scipioni
 

Hi owners,
I want to change my windlasses on my Santorin that's 20 years old. Does someone remember If is 1500 or 1200 watts? I remember 1200.
Thanks
Antonio
Sn 108 vagabundo
On Land in Rome

Inviato da iPhone

Re: Perkins M 4.154 repairs

j.lochhead@...
 

Hi Warren and Zetta,  Did you get it rebuit in Thailand?  Interested in recommendation on Good Mechanic.

Re: prop shaft bonding

j.lochhead@...
 

Hi,

We replaced our SS prop shaft due to corrosion.  It was not bonded.  I think the original shaft was bronze (we still have it as a spare).   We discovered the corrosion when we pulled the shaft to replace the cutlass bearing. 

If you have a SS shaft with no anode I suggest you pull the shaft to inspect.

 We just added an anode to the end of the new shaft we had made.

Re: Alarm Sound

Dean Gillies
 

Not much of a clear response from the marina. Getting on a flight to Greece tonight.

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Helm cover

Patrick McAneny
 

Alex, Keep me posted on the cover , being in water should not have hurt it much. Sorry your insurance co. is making things worse for you , as though lack of maintenance would have been a contributing factor in face of 200 mile winds. 
Good Luck,
Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Tue, Nov 21, 2017 4:21 pm
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Helm cover

 
Hello Pat,

Been so busy I haven’t read many of the forum message for the last 9 days.
But just read this one out of the blue.

I don’t think I removed it from the vessel.
I think know where it is (in the life raft storage).
Once the vessel is raised (2 weeks?) I will remove it and see if it is ok.

But I did save the cockpit extension.

General information, as it might take me another week to have time to read the forum message. So if meanwhile you need to contact me, please email me directly to uster@...

I just spent 55 hours searching and organizing all the invoices I could found on the maintenance I did for the last 5 years.
My lawyers are pretty happy with the work (I don’t think the insurance will be).
I still have a lot to do this week.
Then will be back making the inventory.

When things calm down, I will give a full detail report on the forum.
Many of you will be VERY surprised and people insured through De Lassee should search for other insurances.

Sincerely, Alexandre

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 11/21/17, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Helm cover
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2017, 2:53 PM


 









Alex, Do
you have the vinyl helm cover for sale. My wife threw ours
away a couple years ago, can't tell you why , neither
can she. I was hoping to find one to borrow and use as a
template. I hope things are getting much better for you
,you've been thru Hell .
Thanks, 

Pat

SM Shenanigans






-----Original
Message-----

From: Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>

To: amelyachtowners
<amelyachtowners@...>

Sent: Mon, Nov 20, 2017 6:28 am

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Anchor switch / joystick








 













Yes I do!


I also have lots of parts for electric toilet (3 motors,
many valve/seal kits, etc.)


Engine room fan, cabin fan, etc.


Navigation lights, anchor/tri color


air conditioning capacitor and calpeda rebuilt kit


Freezer/fridge thermostat, fan, et.c


Main & Mizzen preventer


2 sets of ballooner lines (red, blue & yellow)


Balloner sheet


3 sails


etc.


Alexandre





--------------------------------------------


On Sun, 11/19/17, pjn.mccallin@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:





Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Anchor switch / joystick


To: amelyachtowners@...


Date: Sunday, November 19, 2017, 4:04 PM








 





























Alexandre, have just changed my yahoo email


setting, hence your problem.


Can you advise me if you still have


the rudder spares the nut and packing, also the


spanner?


If so will


liaise delivery with George.





























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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Helm cover

Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Hello Pat,

Been so busy I haven’t read many of the forum message for the last 9 days.
But just read this one out of the blue.

I don’t think I removed it from the vessel.
I think know where it is (in the life raft storage).
Once the vessel is raised (2 weeks?) I will remove it and see if it is ok.

But I did save the cockpit extension.

General information, as it might take me another week to have time to read the forum message. So if meanwhile you need to contact me, please email me directly to uster@...

I just spent 55 hours searching and organizing all the invoices I could found on the maintenance I did for the last 5 years.
My lawyers are pretty happy with the work (I don’t think the insurance will be).
I still have a lot to do this week.
Then will be back making the inventory.

When things calm down, I will give a full detail report on the forum.
Many of you will be VERY surprised and people insured through De Lassee should search for other insurances.

Sincerely, Alexandre




--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 11/21/17, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Helm cover
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2017, 2:53 PM


 









Alex, Do
you have the vinyl helm cover for sale. My wife threw ours
away a couple years ago, can't tell you why , neither
can she. I was hoping to find one to borrow and use as a
template. I hope things are getting much better for you
,you've been thru Hell .
Thanks, 

Pat

SM Shenanigans






-----Original
Message-----

From: Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>

To: amelyachtowners
<amelyachtowners@...>

Sent: Mon, Nov 20, 2017 6:28 am

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Anchor switch / joystick








 













Yes I do!


I also have lots of parts for electric toilet (3 motors,
many valve/seal kits, etc.)


Engine room fan, cabin fan, etc.


Navigation lights, anchor/tri color


air conditioning capacitor and calpeda rebuilt kit


Freezer/fridge thermostat, fan, et.c


Main & Mizzen preventer


2 sets of ballooner lines (red, blue & yellow)


Balloner sheet


3 sails


etc.


Alexandre





--------------------------------------------


On Sun, 11/19/17, pjn.mccallin@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:





Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Anchor switch / joystick


To: amelyachtowners@...


Date: Sunday, November 19, 2017, 4:04 PM








 





























Alexandre, have just changed my yahoo email


setting, hence your problem.


Can you advise me if you still have


the rudder spares the nut and packing, also the


spanner?


If so will


liaise delivery with George.





























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Helm cover

Patrick McAneny
 

Alex, Do you have the vinyl helm cover for sale. My wife threw ours away a couple years ago, can't tell you why , neither can she. I was hoping to find one to borrow and use as a template. I hope things are getting much better for you ,you've been thru Hell .
Thanks, 
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Mon, Nov 20, 2017 6:28 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Anchor switch / joystick

 
Yes I do!
I also have lots of parts for electric toilet (3 motors, many valve/seal kits, etc.)
Engine room fan, cabin fan, etc.
Navigation lights, anchor/tri color
air conditioning capacitor and calpeda rebuilt kit
Freezer/fridge thermostat, fan, et.c
Main & Mizzen preventer
2 sets of ballooner lines (red, blue & yellow)
Balloner sheet
3 sails
etc.
Alexandre

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/19/17, pjn.mccallin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Anchor switch / joystick
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Sunday, November 19, 2017, 4:04 PM


 









Alexandre, have just changed my yahoo email
setting, hence your problem.
Can you advise me if you still have
the rudder spares the nut and packing, also the
spanner?
If so will
liaise delivery with George.









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Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Predict Wind

Courtney Gorman
 

thanks Mark
Cheers
Courtney
54 Trippin'


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Garver mgarver@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Tue, Nov 21, 2017 12:00 pm
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Predict Wind

 

Courtney,

I use the standard version and get most everything I need. Other data I simply get from others, etc. If I'm going someplace unfamiliar and need extra information I request a forecast for current and route planning from Chris Parker mwxc.com. 

I also use my PredictWind with my Iridium GO! which has worked great for me.

Best,

Mark
S/V It's Good
Amel Super Maramu #105

On Nov 20, 2017, at 09:58 AM, "Courtney Gorman Itsfun1@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

For those of you who use Predictwind would you mind telling which version you chose and why?  Right now I am trying to decide between Standard and Pro and am not sure if there are enough advantages to get the Pro.  All advice is appreciated.
Thanks
Courtney
54 Trippin'
Brunswick




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Amel 54 Corrosion

greatketch@...
 

I'll second Bill R's comments.  When we bought our boat it was 20 years old, had circumnavigated twice.  It was as close to pristine as could be asked for.  

Things were just clean and well cared for everywhere.  Any leaks that might have caused corrosion were fixed and cleaned up before the problem got out of hand.

Some things even the best maintenance can not put off forever (the sun is pretty tough on things!)  but what you describe on a relatively new boat is just a boat that is not well loved.

If you have the chance to look at a number of different boats, you'll get a better feel for what kind of things are unavoidable wear and tear, and what points to an owner who wasn't as careful as they could be.

Bill Kinney
SM160,  Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Predict Wind

greatketch@...
 

For us it depends on the density of towers on shore.  With iPhones and verizon when approaching an urban area we normally see our first signals 10 to 15 miles offshore.  But not always able to count on it.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
For Lauderdale, FL

Re: Anchor chain channel liner

greatketch@...
 

Our boat (significantly earlier in production sequence) has the very front edge of the channel near the rollerprotected with stainless steel screwed into the fiberglass.  And another small piece nearer the windlass where the links would impact the channel.

We are replacing them with a single piece of stainless that covers the whole channel.

Bill Kinney
Sm160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL

---In amelyachtowners@..., <no_reply@...> wrote :

I own L'ORIENT, SM2K #422; as the anchor chain exits the boat, underneath the chain forward of the windlass is some kind of heavy duty paper liner intended to protect the gelcoat/fiberglass underneath in the channel. Mine has worn badly........replacing this would be straightforward if I only knew what it was. Kind of looks like a heavy duty non-skid paper of some kind. Thoughts ?

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Predict Wind

Mark Garver
 


Courtney,

I use the standard version and get most everything I need. Other data I simply get from others, etc. If I'm going someplace unfamiliar and need extra information I request a forecast for current and route planning from Chris Parker mwxc.com. 

I also use my PredictWind with my Iridium GO! which has worked great for me.

Best,

Mark
S/V It's Good
Amel Super Maramu #105

On Nov 20, 2017, at 09:58 AM, "Courtney Gorman Itsfun1@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 


For those of you who use Predictwind would you mind telling which version you chose and why?  Right now I am trying to decide between Standard and Pro and am not sure if there are enough advantages to get the Pro.  All advice is appreciated.

Thanks
Courtney
54 Trippin'
Brunswick




Anchor chain channel liner

thomas.kleman <no_reply@...>
 

I own L'ORIENT, SM2K #422; as the anchor chain exits the boat, underneath the chain forward of the windlass is some kind of heavy duty paper liner intended to protect the gelcoat/fiberglass underneath in the channel. Mine has worn badly........replacing this would be straightforward if I only knew what it was. Kind of looks like a heavy duty non-skid paper of some kind. Thoughts ?