Date   
Re: "Permanent" on 12v/24v

greatketch@...
 

Gary,

You wrote:  "all three of them combined are less than one amp when idle" 

That load can add up in a real hurry...  

One amp times 24 hours....  Wow!  That would add almost 25% to the entire electric load on my boat, for--nothing. If you are using the genset as your sole, or primary, power source that might not matter, but for those of us who rely mostly on solar, that's a really big deal.

However, in reading what I have to say, you should know we are probably a bit different than most... we do have a radio/CD player installed but we almost never use, so keeping its memory supplied with power is a vanishing low priority for us.  That, and we move. So radio station memory preset is kind of a worthless feature anyway.

Dealing with a "legacy" electrical system can be a nightmare.  I have done that in the past. I found the only way to keep my sanity was to handle it a bit at a time.  Every time I work on a wire run, even if it is not a new installation, I label it.  Not just at the beginning and end, but every place it is visible.  Every time you find an "abandoned" wire, rip it out.  Attacked a bit at a time, it's not an impossible task.

If you don't have a tone generating wire tracer, it might be a good investment.

Bill Kinney
SM 160, Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD


---In amelyachtowners@..., <gary@...> wrote :

Greetings!

As I've been engrossed in the bowl-of-spaghetti called "wiring" it has been a true learning/labeling/discovering/pondering process.
I've pulled a lot of 'deadwood' wiring out, upgraded and updated some of the not-so-stellar runs and connections and made a couple of (what I think are) improvements to the back-and-forth wire runs I've discovered.
The wire Chase's were all stuffed soooo tightly, and when the old equipment came out (years ago, I guess) the cabling was just left in place. It's all good now,but I have a question about the three "Sailor" 24v-to-12v converters.
They appeared to be routed through one of the three breakers in the wet locker area (on the aft wall of the nav station) but one is marked "Permanent" which would seem to indicate it's 'hot' all the time.
Except for keeping data in the CD Player, is there a compelling reason this converter could not be switched off as well? I mean it probably draws next to nothing (all three of them combined are less than one amp when idle) but every quarter of an amp counts :)
As near as I can tell, all the 12v equipment (VHF, Autohelm, B&G computer, Chain Counter, AIS and stereo system) would not suffer from a switchable supply.
Is there something aboard, either 24v or 12v, that definitely requires permanent power?
Thanks in advance. It's been a heck of a project so far .. started out chasing a lost GPS signal and have been rewiring for two weeks now. The wire-tie folks love me :)

Gary W.
S/V Adagio
Marmaris, Turkey

Re: Distributed vs. Conventional Electrical Systems

greatketch@...
 


Craig,

I think you (and Amel in the "old days") are simply missing the point of circuit breakers.  They are most certainly NOT there to protect the anchor washdown pump, or the thruster motor, or any other piece of equipment.  There is nothing a circuit breaker can do to "protect" the pump motor, or other device:  If it shorts, it has already died! If, in normal operation, it draws too much current for the wiring to support, then the wiring is undersized.

Circuit breakers are there to protect the WIRING and prevent the catastrophic results that can occur if a short occurs ANYWHERE that overloads the wiring.  This can occur from many faults, none of them likely, but all with disastrous consequences.  Wire chafe is probably the most common cause on boats, but others happen. I'd guess loose connections are a close second.  

Having a breaker at the far end of the wire, away from the battery, completely misses the point of why it is there in the first place. In my opinion, if you have a circuit breaker at the point of use of the power, you might as well just replace it with a switch--it is essentially useless. 

When I ran a service department for a large charter company, one of the annual safety meetings I ran for for my staff was to dead short circuit a 12 volt battery through 14 gauge wire.  Watching solid copper wire burst into flame and literally explode was a sobering experience for people who could easily get into the habit of thinking "its only 12 volts." It really made the point about why fuses and circuit breakers were essential.

There is nothing at all wrong with distributed CONTROL of an electrical system. That is just fancy electronics.  But... you can not "distribute" protection of the wiring. I have never heard a  good reason to run long lengths of un-fused wiring on a boat--or anywhere else.  It is just dangerous--and for absolutely no benefit.  Dangerous overloads rarely occur because of equipment problems.  They occur because of wiring faults.  Do they happen often?  No, not at all. But when they do, it is truly terrifying.  

C-zone, Ocotplex, etc, are NOT wiring protection systems.  They are not "circuit breakers".  They are CONTROL systems.  Very different animals.

I have seen several boat fires at much closer quarters than I ever hope to repeat, and most of them were electrical in origin, all from things that shouldn't have happened--but did.  

Bill Kinney
Sm160, Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD




---In amelyachtowners@..., <sangaris@...> wrote :

I'd always thought Amel was ahead of the curve with its Distributed Electrical System. That seems to be the direction the industry is going, now with solid state circuit breakers controlled through the NMEA2000 data network. Eliminates the large industrial style circuit breaker panels of yore and adds great flexibility. Check out CAPI2, C-Zone, Octoplex, etc. Seems Amel is going backwards technologically if they're centralizing. Let's see, your anchor washdown pump shorts and rather than it tripping an adjacent breaker it's got to overload a 15 meter long cable run back to the central circuit breaker panel. To say nothing of the excess wiring to give all equipment a "home run". Must be missing something in this discussion.
Cheers, Craig SN68 Sangaris


-

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

karkauai
 

My bow lockers are notoriously damp, not sure how water is getting in.

I really don't think any chemical will help if you get a hole in the sealing layer, what ever it is.  If yours is still solid, I would glass over it after it has dried thoroughly.  That won't protect it from below, but nothing is likely to damage it from below.  If its feeling squishy at all, I'd replace with something that won't rot, or glass over a good marine plywood.
Kent
SM243
Kristy


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] "Permanent" on 12v/24v

VLADIMIR SONSEV
 

Pat,

The system that we have has some advantages. It reduces length of big gauge wires. On our system multiple users feed from one heave gauge bus.
I agree that new system is more convenient, and more traditional.

Vladimir Sonsev
Tel/Text: 202 258 1916


On Oct 15, 2017 9:49 AM, "Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Tom, There are many pieces of equipment throughout the boat located much further from the power source , with their breakers located next to the equipment. This has always concerned & puzzled  me , as we have long runs of hot wires not protected until they reach the breakers. Thursday evening Diane and I had the pleasure of having the owners of SM Kerpa , Paul and  Kerstin and Olivier as well , to our home for dinner . I asked about this set up , with breakers remotely located . Olivier pointed out that Amel now locates all the breakers in a central location , assumedly at the nav station and close to the batteries . This not only makes it much easier and quicker to locate the breakers , but provides protection from dead shorts . I think it was very good for Amel to adopt this electrical configuration . On our model , I think we need to assure that wires are bundled with minimum  movement and protected from chafe. Obviously, if Amel had a do over on our model , they would adopt this new configuration . We may get down to Rock Hall before , Nov , if so we"ll stop by .

Have a good trip,
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Peacock peacock8491@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Oct 15, 2017 8:46 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] "Permanent" on 12v/24v

 
One last thought or two:

To answer your question directly, no other reason to have an always hot Sailor transformer.

As a question to you and others:

I have just replaced the battery monitor due to the original unit going bad after 18 years (they don’t make them like they used to). Tracing the wiring, there are two permanently hot wires going from the battery to the monitor; each wire is fused, located in the battery compartment. The monitor instructions indicate that the fuses should indeed be placed as close as possible to the batteries. That all seems great and as it should be.

I was concerned about whether the permanent Sailor unit was fused in a similar fashion. However, the wiring as it exists goes through the breaker (but somehow bypassing it) in the hanging closet. That breaker dos not cut off power to the Sailor unit. The Sailor unit does have fuse, as per Olivier. Am I correct to assume that the lack of a fuse more proximal to the battery is still safe?

Thanks.

Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay


On Oct 15, 2017, at 4:04 AM, gary@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Greetings!

As I've been engrossed in the bowl-of-spaghetti called "wiring" it has been a true learning/labeling/discovering/pondering process.
I've pulled a lot of 'deadwood' wiring out, upgraded and updated some of the not-so-stellar runs and connections and made a couple of (what I think are) improvements to the back-and-forth wire runs I've discovered.  
The wire Chase's were all stuffed soooo tightly, and when the old equipment came out (years ago, I guess) the cabling was just left in place. It's all good now,but I have a question about the three "Sailor" 24v-to-12v converters.
They appeared to be routed through one of the three breakers in the wet locker area (on the aft wall of the nav station) but one is marked "Permanent" which would seem to indicate it's 'hot' all the time.
Except for keeping data in the CD Player, is there a compelling reason this converter could not be switched off as well? I mean it probably draws next to nothing (all three of them combined are less than one amp when idle) but every quarter of an amp counts :)
As near as I can tell, all the 12v equipment (VHF, Autohelm, B&G computer, Chain Counter, AIS and stereo system) would not suffer from a switchable supply.
Is there something aboard, either 24v or 12v, that definitely requires permanent power?
Thanks in advance. It's been a heck of a project so far .. started out chasing a lost GPS signal and have been rewiring for two weeks now. The wire-tie folks love me :) 

Gary W.
S/V Adagio
Marmaris, Turkey


Distributed vs. Conventional Electrical Systems

Craig & Katherine Briggs SN 68 Sangaris Tropic Isle Harbor, FL
 

I'd always thought Amel was ahead of the curve with its Distributed Electrical System. That seems to be the direction the industry is going, now with solid state circuit breakers controlled through the NMEA2000 data network. Eliminates the large industrial style circuit breaker panels of yore and adds great flexibility. Check out CAPI2, C-Zone, Octoplex, etc. Seems Amel is going backwards technologically if they're centralizing. Let's see, your anchor washdown pump shorts and rather than it tripping an adjacent breaker it's got to overload a 15 meter long cable run back to the central circuit breaker panel. To say nothing of the excess wiring to give all equipment a "home run". Must be missing something in this discussion.
Cheers, Craig SN68 Sangaris


---In amelyachtowners@..., <sailw32@...> wrote :

Tom, There are many pieces of equipment throughout the boat located much further from the power source , with their breakers located next to the equipment. This has always concerned & puzzled  me , as we have long runs of hot wires not protected until they reach the breakers. Thursday evening Diane and I had the pleasure of having the owners of SM Kerpa , Paul and  Kerstin and Olivier as well , to our home for dinner . I asked about this set up , with breakers remotely located . Olivier pointed out that Amel now locates all the breakers in a central location , assumedly at the nav station and close to the batteries . This not only makes it much easier and quicker to locate the breakers , but provides protection from dead shorts . I think it was very good for Amel to adopt this electrical configuration . On our model , I think we need to assure that wires are bundled with minimum  movement and protected from chafe. Obviously, if Amel had a do over on our model , they would adopt this new configuration . We may get down to Rock Hall before , Nov , if so we"ll stop by .
Have a good trip,
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Peacock peacock8491@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Sun, Oct 15, 2017 8:46 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] "Permanent" on 12v/24v

 
One last thought or two:

To answer your question directly, no other reason to have an always hot Sailor transformer.

As a question to you and others:

I have just replaced the battery monitor due to the original unit going bad after 18 years (they don’t make them like they used to). Tracing the wiring, there are two permanently hot wires going from the battery to the monitor; each wire is fused, located in the battery compartment. The monitor instructions indicate that the fuses should indeed be placed as close as possible to the batteries. That all seems great and as it should be.

I was concerned about whether the permanent Sailor unit was fused in a similar fashion. However, the wiring as it exists goes through the breaker (but somehow bypassing it) in the hanging closet. That breaker dos not cut off power to the Sailor unit. The Sailor unit does have fuse, as per Olivier. Am I correct to assume that the lack of a fuse more proximal to the battery is still safe?

Thanks.

Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay


On Oct 15, 2017, at 4:04 AM, gary@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Greetings!

As I've been engrossed in the bowl-of-spaghetti called "wiring" it has been a true learning/labeling/discovering/pondering process.
I've pulled a lot of 'deadwood' wiring out, upgraded and updated some of the not-so-stellar runs and connections and made a couple of (what I think are) improvements to the back-and-forth wire runs I've discovered.  
The wire Chase's were all stuffed soooo tightly, and when the old equipment came out (years ago, I guess) the cabling was just left in place. It's all good now,but I have a question about the three "Sailor" 24v-to-12v converters.
They appeared to be routed through one of the three breakers in the wet locker area (on the aft wall of the nav station) but one is marked "Permanent" which would seem to indicate it's 'hot' all the time.
Except for keeping data in the CD Player, is there a compelling reason this converter could not be switched off as well? I mean it probably draws next to nothing (all three of them combined are less than one amp when idle) but every quarter of an amp counts :)
As near as I can tell, all the 12v equipment (VHF, Autohelm, B&G computer, Chain Counter, AIS and stereo system) would not suffer from a switchable supply.
Is there something aboard, either 24v or 12v, that definitely requires permanent power?
Thanks in advance. It's been a heck of a project so far .. started out chasing a lost GPS signal and have been rewiring for two weeks now. The wire-tie folks love me :) 

Gary W.
S/V Adagio
Marmaris, Turkey


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Fw: Mizzen gooseneck [4 Attachments]

ianjenkins1946 <ianjudyjenkins@hotmail.com>
 

Hi Steve,


 Many thanks. That's really useful as it does show a washer on the lower jaw. I think when Pen Azen was rerigged a few months back and they took both masts ashore the riggers must have forgotten the lower washer.

 We have found a temporary one that fits.

We have also learnt of the wonders of 1200 wet and dry, having spray painted  and rubbed down with 1200 the mast looks like new.

Very satisfying.


Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302, Preveza, Greece


From: amelyachtowners@... on behalf of Stephen Morrison steve_morrison@... [amelyachtowners]
Sent: 15 October 2017 16:08:16
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Fw: Mizzen gooseneck [4 Attachments]
 
Not sure if these are original or not, but this is how 380 looks today






All the best,
Steve Morrison
SM 380 TouRai
Brunswick, Ga



On Oct 15, 2017, at 11:29 AM, Ian & Judy ianjudyjenkins@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi All,


When it rained here in Greece ( first for a month) I noticed a  black stain running from the bottom of the mizzen goose neck fitting. I took it off the boom. ( I also took the opportunity to repaint where there had been bubbles )


 Whereas there is a washer on the top of the aluminium piece that fits in the two jaws attached to the mast, there was no washer on the bottom of that piece. You will see from the photo that the bottom of that piece is blackened.


 There is evidence of  wearing around the hole on the upper side of the lower jaw, the shape of  which suggests that there might originally have been a thin washer there to prevent the aluminium piece rubbing on the jaw. It would have to be pretty thin as there is not much room there.


Does anyone know if there is meant to be a washer there ? It would have to be a hard plastic of some sort, and pretty thin.


Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302, Preveza, Greece




From: ian/judyjenkins <penazen@...>
Sent: 15 October 2017 14:41
To: ianjudyjenkins@...
Subject: Mizzen gooseneck
 


--
  ian and judy jenkins

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Fw: Mizzen gooseneck [3 Attachments]

Stephen Morrison <steve_morrison@...>
 

Not sure if these are original or not, but this is how 380 looks today






All the best,
Steve Morrison
SM 380 TouRai
Brunswick, Ga



On Oct 15, 2017, at 11:29 AM, Ian & Judy ianjudyjenkins@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi All,


When it rained here in Greece ( first for a month) I noticed a  black stain running from the bottom of the mizzen goose neck fitting. I took it off the boom. ( I also took the opportunity to repaint where there had been bubbles )


 Whereas there is a washer on the top of the aluminium piece that fits in the two jaws attached to the mast, there was no washer on the bottom of that piece. You will see from the photo that the bottom of that piece is blackened.


 There is evidence of  wearing around the hole on the upper side of the lower jaw, the shape of  which suggests that there might originally have been a thin washer there to prevent the aluminium piece rubbing on the jaw. It would have to be pretty thin as there is not much room there.


Does anyone know if there is meant to be a washer there ? It would have to be a hard plastic of some sort, and pretty thin.


Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302, Preveza, Greece




From: ian/judyjenkins <penazen@...>
Sent: 15 October 2017 14:41
To: ianjudyjenkins@...
Subject: Mizzen gooseneck
 


--
  ian and judy jenkins

Fw: Mizzen gooseneck

ianjenkins1946 <ianjudyjenkins@hotmail.com>
 

Hi All,


When it rained here in Greece ( first for a month) I noticed a  black stain running from the bottom of the mizzen goose neck fitting. I took it off the boom. ( I also took the opportunity to repaint where there had been bubbles )


 Whereas there is a washer on the top of the aluminium piece that fits in the two jaws attached to the mast, there was no washer on the bottom of that piece. You will see from the photo that the bottom of that piece is blackened.


 There is evidence of  wearing around the hole on the upper side of the lower jaw, the shape of  which suggests that there might originally have been a thin washer there to prevent the aluminium piece rubbing on the jaw. It would have to be pretty thin as there is not much room there.


Does anyone know if there is meant to be a washer there ? It would have to be a hard plastic of some sort, and pretty thin.


Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302, Preveza, Greece




From: ian/judyjenkins
Sent: 15 October 2017 14:41
To: ianjudyjenkins@...
Subject: Mizzen gooseneck
 


--
  ian and judy jenkins
  penazen@...

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] "Permanent" on 12v/24v

Patrick McAneny
 

Tom, There are many pieces of equipment throughout the boat located much further from the power source , with their breakers located next to the equipment. This has always concerned & puzzled  me , as we have long runs of hot wires not protected until they reach the breakers. Thursday evening Diane and I had the pleasure of having the owners of SM Kerpa , Paul and  Kerstin and Olivier as well , to our home for dinner . I asked about this set up , with breakers remotely located . Olivier pointed out that Amel now locates all the breakers in a central location , assumedly at the nav station and close to the batteries . This not only makes it much easier and quicker to locate the breakers , but provides protection from dead shorts . I think it was very good for Amel to adopt this electrical configuration . On our model , I think we need to assure that wires are bundled with minimum  movement and protected from chafe. Obviously, if Amel had a do over on our model , they would adopt this new configuration . We may get down to Rock Hall before , Nov , if so we"ll stop by .
Have a good trip,
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Peacock peacock8491@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Sun, Oct 15, 2017 8:46 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] "Permanent" on 12v/24v

 
One last thought or two:

To answer your question directly, no other reason to have an always hot Sailor transformer.

As a question to you and others:

I have just replaced the battery monitor due to the original unit going bad after 18 years (they don’t make them like they used to). Tracing the wiring, there are two permanently hot wires going from the battery to the monitor; each wire is fused, located in the battery compartment. The monitor instructions indicate that the fuses should indeed be placed as close as possible to the batteries. That all seems great and as it should be.

I was concerned about whether the permanent Sailor unit was fused in a similar fashion. However, the wiring as it exists goes through the breaker (but somehow bypassing it) in the hanging closet. That breaker dos not cut off power to the Sailor unit. The Sailor unit does have fuse, as per Olivier. Am I correct to assume that the lack of a fuse more proximal to the battery is still safe?

Thanks.

Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay


On Oct 15, 2017, at 4:04 AM, gary@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Greetings!

As I've been engrossed in the bowl-of-spaghetti called "wiring" it has been a true learning/labeling/discovering/pondering process.
I've pulled a lot of 'deadwood' wiring out, upgraded and updated some of the not-so-stellar runs and connections and made a couple of (what I think are) improvements to the back-and-forth wire runs I've discovered.  
The wire Chase's were all stuffed soooo tightly, and when the old equipment came out (years ago, I guess) the cabling was just left in place. It's all good now,but I have a question about the three "Sailor" 24v-to-12v converters.
They appeared to be routed through one of the three breakers in the wet locker area (on the aft wall of the nav station) but one is marked "Permanent" which would seem to indicate it's 'hot' all the time.
Except for keeping data in the CD Player, is there a compelling reason this converter could not be switched off as well? I mean it probably draws next to nothing (all three of them combined are less than one amp when idle) but every quarter of an amp counts :)
As near as I can tell, all the 12v equipment (VHF, Autohelm, B&G computer, Chain Counter, AIS and stereo system) would not suffer from a switchable supply.
Is there something aboard, either 24v or 12v, that definitely requires permanent power?
Thanks in advance. It's been a heck of a project so far .. started out chasing a lost GPS signal and have been rewiring for two weeks now. The wire-tie folks love me :) 

Gary W.
S/V Adagio
Marmaris, Turkey


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] "Permanent" on 12v/24v

Thomas Peacock
 

One last thought or two:

To answer your question directly, no other reason to have an always hot Sailor transformer.

As a question to you and others:

I have just replaced the battery monitor due to the original unit going bad after 18 years (they don’t make them like they used to). Tracing the wiring, there are two permanently hot wires going from the battery to the monitor; each wire is fused, located in the battery compartment. The monitor instructions indicate that the fuses should indeed be placed as close as possible to the batteries. That all seems great and as it should be.

I was concerned about whether the permanent Sailor unit was fused in a similar fashion. However, the wiring as it exists goes through the breaker (but somehow bypassing it) in the hanging closet. That breaker dos not cut off power to the Sailor unit. The Sailor unit does have fuse, as per Olivier. Am I correct to assume that the lack of a fuse more proximal to the battery is still safe?

Thanks.

Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay


On Oct 15, 2017, at 4:04 AM, gary@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Greetings!

As I've been engrossed in the bowl-of-spaghetti called "wiring" it has been a true learning/labeling/discovering/pondering process.
I've pulled a lot of 'deadwood' wiring out, upgraded and updated some of the not-so-stellar runs and connections and made a couple of (what I think are) improvements to the back-and-forth wire runs I've discovered.  
The wire Chase's were all stuffed soooo tightly, and when the old equipment came out (years ago, I guess) the cabling was just left in place. It's all good now,but I have a question about the three "Sailor" 24v-to-12v converters.
They appeared to be routed through one of the three breakers in the wet locker area (on the aft wall of the nav station) but one is marked "Permanent" which would seem to indicate it's 'hot' all the time.
Except for keeping data in the CD Player, is there a compelling reason this converter could not be switched off as well? I mean it probably draws next to nothing (all three of them combined are less than one amp when idle) but every quarter of an amp counts :)
As near as I can tell, all the 12v equipment (VHF, Autohelm, B&G computer, Chain Counter, AIS and stereo system) would not suffer from a switchable supply.
Is there something aboard, either 24v or 12v, that definitely requires permanent power?
Thanks in advance. It's been a heck of a project so far .. started out chasing a lost GPS signal and have been rewiring for two weeks now. The wire-tie folks love me :) 

Gary W.
S/V Adagio
Marmaris, Turkey


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] "Permanent" on 12v/24v

Thomas Peacock
 

Hi Gary,

I went through a similar experience about a year ago with the nav station wiring. As always, I was impressed by the design, workmanship, and accessibility of the boat. The “permanent” (how easy it is when the English word was directly borrowed from French) Sailor unit was a little mystery, indeed I found it fed the alway hot wire on our AM/FM radio, to store the presets. Oliver was kind enough to elucidate the design for me, below is his note. 

Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Rock Hall, Maryland; heading for Antigua November 3

Hello everybody, especially the happy SM owners and their tricky and nicely wired nav station!!

You all have three power supplies, located under the nav station, most of them SAILOR, that turn 24V into 12V, for a maximum output of 6 Amps (if you draw more, you blow the fuse inside the box).
One of them is labelled PERMANENT.
This power supply only feeds the auto-radio with 12V. It is permanently wired to the 24V battery set, without going through the main breakers.
Why is that? In order that the memory of the auto-radio is permanently fed and doesn't lose its preset stations.
BUT, you have all noticed that, when you turn off the breaker (NAVIGATION or INSTRUMENTS) in the hanging locker, you cannot turn on the radio. So you might think the radio is NOT permanently fed.
Indeed it is not.
How does AMEL do that?
There are two wires that feed the auto-radio, one feeds directly the memory system from the SAILOR power supply, one feeds the auto-radio through a relay that is activated only when you get power through the INSTRUMENTS breaker.
If you pay careful attention, when you turn on the INSTRUMENTS breaker, you can hear a CLICK noise coming from the back of the nav station, that's the famous relays that allow 12V power to go to the auto-radio. This relay is activated with 24V.
There are two relays one for the 12V positive, one for the 12V negative.

This system is more complicate than on a car because you need to turn 24V into 12V and you don't get negative through the body of the car but with a wire.

If you look at the back of the main breakers, in the passageway, you will find two small wires connected to the 24V positive and negative inputs of these breakers. These wires feed the PERMANENT SAILOR power supply. You will find connectors on these wires that allow you to disconnect the power supply.
In later SMs and the 54s a switch has been installed on the PERMANENT power supply green box, (or behind the wooden board on starboard side of the nav station in the 54) in order you can easily turn it off. Why? this is for those who leave their boat unattended for a while, without a charge possibility (highly recommended) and who don't want the PERMANENT power supply to empty their batteries (which happens within 3 months).

There is a second item which is permanently connected to the 24V batteries and cannot be turned off:
The battery monitor. But this one is permanently drawing less than the SAILOR power supply.

Take your torch lights and chase for the relays and their wirings.

Olivier from sunny Saint-Martin.


On Oct 15, 2017, at 4:04 AM, gary@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Greetings!

As I've been engrossed in the bowl-of-spaghetti called "wiring" it has been a true learning/labeling/discovering/pondering process.
I've pulled a lot of 'deadwood' wiring out, upgraded and updated some of the not-so-stellar runs and connections and made a couple of (what I think are) improvements to the back-and-forth wire runs I've discovered.  
The wire Chase's were all stuffed soooo tightly, and when the old equipment came out (years ago, I guess) the cabling was just left in place. It's all good now,but I have a question about the three "Sailor" 24v-to-12v converters.
They appeared to be routed through one of the three breakers in the wet locker area (on the aft wall of the nav station) but one is marked "Permanent" which would seem to indicate it's 'hot' all the time.
Except for keeping data in the CD Player, is there a compelling reason this converter could not be switched off as well? I mean it probably draws next to nothing (all three of them combined are less than one amp when idle) but every quarter of an amp counts :)
As near as I can tell, all the 12v equipment (VHF, Autohelm, B&G computer, Chain Counter, AIS and stereo system) would not suffer from a switchable supply.
Is there something aboard, either 24v or 12v, that definitely requires permanent power?
Thanks in advance. It's been a heck of a project so far .. started out chasing a lost GPS signal and have been rewiring for two weeks now. The wire-tie folks love me :) 

Gary W.
S/V Adagio
Marmaris, Turkey


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Main furler motor issue

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Thomas, I agree with those who suggest checking the brushes. In my experience they are this number one culprit. You have checked the breakers. I have found if I try to furl under too much load the breaker in the port forward locker in the forward cabin pops.
The brushes can stick because of accumulated carbon dust from wear. Remove them and give the motor a blow out with an air gun if available. The contact surface can get  very glossy and when they are out I give that area a quick rub with sand paper.
Regards
Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl

Sent from my Vodafone Smart

On 15 Oct 2017 20:42, "SV Garulfo svgarulfo@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi all,

The main furler motor stopped working yesterday. We wanted to unfurl the dail and it wouldn't go. The outhaul is ok. 
Battery levels are fine (and the engine alternator was still running and producing amps at the time).
The command produces a click sound in what I think is the solenoid. 
The circuit breaker marked "mast" in the forward cabin above the centre bookshelf /wardrobe is on (as are the other breakers there for "boom", etc).

Any further advice before I tinker any further? I would check the motor itself but having never done it, I'd rather be cautious with little local help at hand. 

Thanks 

Fair winds

Thomas 
Garulfo 
Amel 54 #122
Tangier, Morocco 

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Main furler motor issue

Duane Siegfri
 

Thomas,

I had the same problem.  It was caused by the upper bearing in the gearbox being rusted to the point the drive shaft could not rotate.  

If you remove the motor and the gearbox, and you can't turn the shaft the motor turns, then it's likely the bearing.  It's fairly easy to replace.  Take the cover plates off both sides and you'll find an oil seal and a bearing below each cover plate...these will need to be replaced.

There have been several discussions on when to replace the large bronze gear, have a look at those as well.

Duane
Wanderer, SM#477

"Permanent" on 12v/24v

Gary Wells
 

Greetings!

As I've been engrossed in the bowl-of-spaghetti called "wiring" it has been a true learning/labeling/discovering/pondering process.
I've pulled a lot of 'deadwood' wiring out, upgraded and updated some of the not-so-stellar runs and connections and made a couple of (what I think are) improvements to the back-and-forth wire runs I've discovered.
The wire Chase's were all stuffed soooo tightly, and when the old equipment came out (years ago, I guess) the cabling was just left in place. It's all good now,but I have a question about the three "Sailor" 24v-to-12v converters.
They appeared to be routed through one of the three breakers in the wet locker area (on the aft wall of the nav station) but one is marked "Permanent" which would seem to indicate it's 'hot' all the time.
Except for keeping data in the CD Player, is there a compelling reason this converter could not be switched off as well? I mean it probably draws next to nothing (all three of them combined are less than one amp when idle) but every quarter of an amp counts :)
As near as I can tell, all the 12v equipment (VHF, Autohelm, B&G computer, Chain Counter, AIS and stereo system) would not suffer from a switchable supply.
Is there something aboard, either 24v or 12v, that definitely requires permanent power?
Thanks in advance. It's been a heck of a project so far .. started out chasing a lost GPS signal and have been rewiring for two weeks now. The wire-tie folks love me :)

Gary W.
S/V Adagio
Marmaris, Turkey

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Main furler motor issue

Peter Forbes
 

Garulfo,

Try The brushes on the motor - just unscrew the little black retainers and clean them and replace - be careful the brushes are spring loaded. You have to remove the motor cover to access the brush retainers.

Good luck

Peter
Amel 54. #035
Grenada


On 15 Oct 2017, at 08:42, SV Garulfo svgarulfo@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi all,

The main furler motor stopped working yesterday. We wanted to unfurl the dail and it wouldn't go. The outhaul is ok. 
Battery levels are fine (and the engine alternator was still running and producing amps at the time).
The command produces a click sound in what I think is the solenoid. 
The circuit breaker marked "mast" in the forward cabin above the centre bookshelf /wardrobe is on (as are the other breakers there for "boom", etc).

Any further advice before I tinker any further? I would check the motor itself but having never done it, I'd rather be cautious with little local help at hand. 

Thanks 

Fair winds

Thomas 
Garulfo 
Amel 54 #122
Tangier, Morocco 

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Main furler motor issue

Mohammad Shirloo
 

Hi Thomas;
 
Our furler motor stopped working within a few months of purchasing Kokomo. When we wanted to furl the main in a 25 Knot Breeze in Turkey, the furler would not work and we had to disengage the motor and manually furl the main.
 
We removed the motor and as we were removing it about a cup of water drained out of the motor. We sent it for service but were told that the motor was unrepeatable. We had to order a new motor from Amel. In discussing the issue with Amel, we were told that the upper seal of the motor dries out after a few years and water gets into the motor, so the seals should be changed every two years. We purchased new seals from Amel and is now a part of our maintenance schedule to change out the seals.
 
One more item to add to the ever expanding list of routine maintenance items.
 
Respectfully;
Mohammad Shirloo
323-633-2222 Cell
310-454-3148 Fax
 


From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 12:43 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Main furler motor issue

 

Hi all,

The main furler motor stopped working yesterday. We wanted to unfurl the dail and it wouldn't go. The outhaul is ok. 
Battery levels are fine (and the engine alternator was still running and producing amps at the time).
The command produces a click sound in what I think is the solenoid. 
The circuit breaker marked "mast" in the forward cabin above the centre bookshelf /wardrobe is on (as are the other breakers there for "boom", etc).

Any further advice before I tinker any further? I would check the motor itself but having never done it, I'd rather be cautious with little local help at hand. 

Thanks 

Fair winds

Thomas 
Garulfo 
Amel 54 #122
Tangier, Morocco 

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Main furler motor issue

Bob Sarff <bob.sarff@...>
 

I'd check the brushes in the motor first.   That is the issue I've had in the past.  It can usually be fixed by gently tapping on the end of the Brush and/ or removing it and cleaning it.

Good luck

On Oct 15, 2017, at 7:42 PM, SV Garulfo svgarulfo@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi all,

The main furler motor stopped working yesterday. We wanted to unfurl the dail and it wouldn't go. The outhaul is ok. 
Battery levels are fine (and the engine alternator was still running and producing amps at the time).
The command produces a click sound in what I think is the solenoid. 
The circuit breaker marked "mast" in the forward cabin above the centre bookshelf /wardrobe is on (as are the other breakers there for "boom", etc).

Any further advice before I tinker any further? I would check the motor itself but having never done it, I'd rather be cautious with little local help at hand. 

Thanks 

Fair winds

Thomas 
Garulfo 
Amel 54 #122
Tangier, Morocco 

Main furler motor issue

Sv Garulfo
 

Hi all,

The main furler motor stopped working yesterday. We wanted to unfurl the dail and it wouldn't go. The outhaul is ok. 
Battery levels are fine (and the engine alternator was still running and producing amps at the time).
The command produces a click sound in what I think is the solenoid. 
The circuit breaker marked "mast" in the forward cabin above the centre bookshelf /wardrobe is on (as are the other breakers there for "boom", etc).

Any further advice before I tinker any further? I would check the motor itself but having never done it, I'd rather be cautious with little local help at hand. 

Thanks 

Fair winds

Thomas 
Garulfo 
Amel 54 #122
Tangier, Morocco 

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Electric Heads

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

I guess we had a special Super Maramu. Ours came, standard, with 2 Jabsco "Not-So-Quiet-Flush" toilets. 


CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

   

On Oct 14, 2017 09:38, "divanz620@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Agree,

I have had that experience also...either a bad batch or they were distorted because of packaging/ packing...
In any event you could see a big gap...and of course, they didn't work.
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Going North in December

Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Joel, 

I am waiting for your book. 

Great advice. It seems to me that most of the people that I know who got in trouble on a passage we're either, sailing to a calendar appointment, departing with "friends," or bored with where they were.  

Study the situation well and don't let anything or anyone pressure your decision. 

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

   

On Oct 14, 2017 07:51, "'Joel Potter' jfpottercys@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hello Amel Folks. I sold Chuck and Kim their boat but I will respond to all so I can pass along some thoughts that will form separate chapters in the book about cruising that I will probably never find the time to write.

 

The common element running through all the good advice given by all respondents was time. Consider that for a moment.

 

“ When you buy a power boat, throw away your watch. When you buy a sailboat, throw away your calendar.” This should be considered along with, “ The two most important things to have aboard any vessel are good, well maintained ground tackle and a well-developed sense of fear.”

 

It can be dangerous to commit to a specific time period to complete a passage, no matter how short or seemingly ‘easy’ the journey may be.

 

If that little voice starts screaming at you as you prepare to depart, gentlemen, ( you know, the one that encourages you to stop and make sure of where you presently are when lost  ) listen to it carefully. If you are not sure of being able to reasonably clear all ‘no-go’ concerns before casting off, don’t. Start the voyage with confidence so you don’t finish it with fear.

 

And, like all who proffer advice, there have been times when I regretted not listening to my own.

 

Have fun with your Amel.

 

Joel

Joel F. Potter/Cruising Yacht Specialist LLC

THE EXPERIENCED AMEL GUY

954 462 5869 office

954 812 2485 cell

 

  

 

From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 11:26 AM
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Going North in December

 

 

Hi All,

I know many of you have traveled North along the Florida coast during various parts of the year. A little advice requested. I will be moving my boat from Ft. Lauderdale to Brunswick, GA. We will be moving it in early December. That brings the prospect of North winds against the Gulf Stream (December pilot charts and conventional wisdom seem to indicate this). Is there a general consensus as to a straight shot (~2.5 days). Daily hops (~5-6 days) or a combination depending on 3-5 day forecasts. Just don't want to get caught out at night in a bad blow and have to find shelter in a skinny poorly marked inlet. This stretch is unfamiliar to me. I researched acceptable inlets so there are a number to choose from. 

 

Thanks for your time.

 

Chuck & Kim

s/v Joy #388