Date   

Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Expected RPM at WOT

Porter McRoberts
 

Amen!  I agree Bill. Thank you very much. 

I made a video for posterity if anyone interested 

https://youtu.be/y8921P2B1Yk

Porter

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 12:58 PM, Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I absolutely agree that you have eliminated every possible cause of resistance causing the low RPM. And, since Volvo specified the sizes of the AutoProp and the fixed Prop, Volvo cannot claim that the Prop is over-sized or over-pitched. There is one series of connected things left that are suspect for not only this issue, but previous issues: The Volvo Computer and connected wiring and sensors.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 12:52 PM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Today’s test results WOT comparison of peak RPM: out of gear and in gear but with prop removed. 


After warming up engine to working temperature. 
Out of gear WOT: 3200 RPM
In gear (but no prop) WOT: 3190 RPM 

Can I say with near certainty the problem must lie within the engine itself as the gear presents negligible resistance?  


Thank you all!!

Porter
A54-152

Excuse the errors..  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 11:30 AM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

We all feel for you Porter,


"There but for the grace of God go I”

In your video, at first view, it looked like overload, but was there black smoke at the same time? I doubt it as you would have said, therefore it is likely to be fuel starvation which brings us back to the whole box of magic namely the computerised fuel control and its associated sensors and wiring. So yes I agree with Bill and what is now becoming the general consensus. It is a sensor or computer problem!!!!

You will be at the mercy of the almighty VOLVO agent. You would have thought that the Volvo agent’s diagnostic computer that plugs in below the cockpit instruments (in the locker above the sink) would diagnose such a failing in moment. Alas I guess not. It might be worth checking that they are fully paid up to Volvo and have access to the Volvo system.

I have  mixed experience of Volvo agents. And am now beginning to wonder if your problem is not Turbo related. 

This is my story:

In Grenada I had a fault code on the EVC, I called the agent and he came on board in St Georges and said that the wifi was too slow to access Volvo. Then I sailed to Grenada Marine (St Davids Harbour) and went alongside the agents dock. He still could not access the diagnostic database. I was furious. I had sailed up especially. It transpired that he had not paid his fee and his access code had expired. He then said my fault was the 12v alternator over charging as it was at 14v, which was too high.  I told him to forget it as I knew he was talking rubbish. I refused to pay. (the voltage regulator on that 12v alternator specs it to that voltage, I checked)

I gave up, and sailed to Trinidad and the Volvo agent there diagnosed the problem to the Turbo. He plugged in and accessed the system, the fault code went away.  The boat was out of the water at the time and he said that the problem would be solved by servicing the turbo. So I removed it and had it serviced in the UK. They said it was perfect and did not need servicing.  When I launched and left to sail north I gunned the engine and the fault code came back as before. I continued to sail without the turbo kicking in, so achieved only 2200 RPM. Sound familiar??

I sailed to Martinique. There the Volvo agent plugged in the computer and said it was the boost sensor. He replaced it there and then as it was in stock. Problem solved. Touch wood. Have boost pressure under load get full RPM etc etc. Have fully tested it all. Now some 9 months later, I am happy we got there in the end.

So eventually on the third Volvo agent the problem was correctly diagnosed and fixed.

1.You will forgive me for being so cynical as to suggest you check that the agent has fully paid up for access to Volvo diagnostics. 

2. It will be interesting to hear your news re prop removal.

3. Did you get boost pressure kicking in at about 1400/1500 RPM when the prop was on? If not suspect the boost sensor.



Nick 

(Amelia) missing her already.




On 31 Aug 2018, at 16:06, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

So rational. Thank you Bill

I am gearing up to get under the boat, take off the prop, while reading kids book reports!  
My engine report to follow this afternoon!

Porter
54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 9:51 AM, Bill Rouse brouse@...[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

Some random thoughts...read the last paragraph/suggestion.

I believe any alignment problem will present itself with considerable vibration.

I think you should press Volvo, but I guess you could disconnect the Vetus coupling and see what RPM you can achieve with the transmission in gear. I don't know what the RPM should be in this case, but probably very close to the RPM achieved in neutral. 

I believe an alternator could be a source of too much load, however, if you achieve high RPM in neutral, the alternator(s) can be eliminated.

We must remember that the Volvo computer is designed to prevent sending more fuel to the injectors than the engine is capable of burning. This minimizes pollution, which was the primary goal of the D3. The best example of pollution caused by sending more diesel to diesel cylinders is exhibited by large trucks accelerating with plumes of black smoke (unburned diesel).

What about this scenario:
Remembering that Volvo specified the prop, what about an RPM test with no prop? I believe if you achieve high RPM, you have eliminated all connected sources of friction and proven that the only source of your problem is the Volvo engine and probably, wiring, sensors, or computer.

I hope this helps.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 8:27 AM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill 

As always I really appreciate your thoughts on this... I think it is the computer or sensors too. Also we were getting 2600 rpm before that long block exchange (with poor compression). 
So today I’ll try and wiggle the fixed prop off and run the naked spline. 

And I’ll take you up on your offer of a letter to Volvo. 

Thanks again Guru

Porter. A54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 4:36 PM, Bill Rouse brouse@...[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

If you can easily spin the prop in neutral with the shaft brake OFF, the C-drive isn't adding friction.

I think that you have two remaining possibilities:
  1. The brand new transmission is faulty, when it was not faulty before the long block change (I think very, very unlikely)
  2. Volvo Computer is not allowing higher RPMs for some unknown reason.
With a new transmission, a changed prop (which Volvo spec'd in the 1st place), and the c-drive tested, I have to believe that the problem is with the Volvo Computer. There is one more reason I point to the Volvo Computer: Of all of the possibilities, it is the most likely because of our combined experience with Volvo, the D3 and its computer.

I will happily write Volvo a more detailed explanation when you get to that point..

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:05 PM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups..com> wrote:
 

Nick. Yes. Thank you. 


Re WOT out of gear: 3100rpm

The transmission is fairly new:  replaced in he spring. 


Re friction within the cdrive. 

With engine idling in neutral, brake open I swim under the boat and can easily spin the prop. 

How can I better evaluate resistance in the system?: motor—New ZF tranny—vetus(friction??)— cdrive— prop. 

I think the next step is to take the fixed prop off. 
I need a gear puller to get it off I think (which I don’t have and need to get (any recommendations?).... Unless anyone has another suggestion? Tying the autoprop puller to the fixed prop using low stretch amsteel?  

Again all very good suggestions. 

Let’s say it is the cdrive. What then??????

Thank you all!!

Porter 

Amel 54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 12:47 PM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Sorry Porter,


Just going over the email again.

You have max RPM of 2200 at WOT with the new fixed prop, right? If so that can not be correct. It should be around 2850.  I doubt Amel would supply a spare prop that is not correct for the engine, at least not to that degree. To be so far from the desired RPM at WOT may cause problems with your new engine. 

What RPM can you achieve out of gear? 

What about the C drive? Have you checked that is working without friction? 


On my 54 with 2006 D3 110 and the Autoprop I get 2850 at WOT, with a clean prop and hull. 

Nick



On 30 Aug 2018, at 15:46, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Thank you everyone for your thoughts re our engine woes they are quite appreciated. 


May I ask thoughts re expected rpm during WOT with the supplied fixed prop on the Amel 54?


Has anyone with the fixed prop determined an observed RPM with WOT?  Volvo is telling me that they think 2200 is due to too large a prop. Now I know the H6 is a slight over propping, reducing the expected 3100-3200 Volvo D3-110 to your observed 2900ish range. 

But 2200 (our WOT RPM with the fixed prop in calm seas) is much lower than 2900, and I have a hard time thinking such a great drop is due to the lack of prop arm adjustment for appropriate bite as seen with the autoprop. 

Any data would be very appreciated. 

Many thanks

Porter Helen Grace and Lilly
S/V Ibis A54-152
Isla Contadora, Panama

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Porter,

I watched the video that is a massive reduction in RPM.. Is their black smoke when it does that because it looks like the engine is seriously overloaded and about to stall?

So the fixed blade prop stops it right. Therefore there is nothing wrong with the engine itself.

Thus it must be something to do with the Bruntons Autoprop, which is a variable pitch prop.

The pitch varies automatically in order to maximise efficiency. "The Autoprop blades, unlike those of conventional propellers, maximise the thrust delivered whatever rpm the yachts engine is running at “

quote from Autoprop website.

So if the thrust  is maximised at all times then load on the engine must vary a bit. Just like say the big alternator kicking in when one runs a heavy load off it, say a toaster for example. So I would expect a slight variability in the rpm as the load on the engine varies but not like in your video.

Agreed there is something wrong with the prop. You could strip it down yourself, it is pretty easy, before returning for service.


Nick

Amelia (Amel 54 019) back at home for a bit.

On 30 Aug 2018, at 10:44, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Porter,

Wow, that is a pretty major "wander" in the video, so glad to see it was resolved by changing prop.  
Your numbers look ok, except for WOT 2200 seems awfully low. I think you do need to follow that up with Volvo, particularly with the fixed prop now in place.

I checked my WOT this morning in flat water/no wind and it was stable at 2920rpm.  

I also took a short video of the wandering I was referring to, its in the" ZF25 Transmission" folder in the files section.  It shows a variation from 1170 to 1210, difficult to hear the engine note on the video, but 40rpm variation is just enough to make the ears prick up!. Given yours and Mohammad's observations, i'll put it down to propeller effects..

I've also uploaded my Sea Trial results from a few weeks ago after we had the gearbox fitted.
It was a bit choppy and breezy, so the speeds are a bit lower than we get in flat water.

Danny, and others - I've solved my oil leak.  Not sure exactly what to attribute it to.
I found an extra 1/4 turn on one of the fwd end sump bolts, but I've also done my regular oil/filter change including replacing the Oring on the oil filter cap.  One of those things solved it - I suspect the filter cap may have been the culprit.   

Cheers
Dean
SY Stella
AMEL 54 #154














Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Expected RPM at WOT

 

I absolutely agree that you have eliminated every possible cause of resistance causing the low RPM. And, since Volvo specified the sizes of the AutoProp and the fixed Prop, Volvo cannot claim that the Prop is over-sized or over-pitched. There is one series of connected things left that are suspect for not only this issue, but previous issues: The Volvo Computer and connected wiring and sensors.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 12:52 PM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Today’s test results WOT comparison of peak RPM: out of gear and in gear but with prop removed. 


After warming up engine to working temperature. 
Out of gear WOT: 3200 RPM
In gear (but no prop) WOT: 3190 RPM 

Can I say with near certainty the problem must lie within the engine itself as the gear presents negligible resistance?  


Thank you all!!

Porter
A54-152

Excuse the errors..  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 11:30 AM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

We all feel for you Porter,


"There but for the grace of God go I”

In your video, at first view, it looked like overload, but was there black smoke at the same time? I doubt it as you would have said, therefore it is likely to be fuel starvation which brings us back to the whole box of magic namely the computerised fuel control and its associated sensors and wiring. So yes I agree with Bill and what is now becoming the general consensus. It is a sensor or computer problem!!!!

You will be at the mercy of the almighty VOLVO agent. You would have thought that the Volvo agent’s diagnostic computer that plugs in below the cockpit instruments (in the locker above the sink) would diagnose such a failing in moment. Alas I guess not. It might be worth checking that they are fully paid up to Volvo and have access to the Volvo system.

I have  mixed experience of Volvo agents. And am now beginning to wonder if your problem is not Turbo related. 

This is my story:

In Grenada I had a fault code on the EVC, I called the agent and he came on board in St Georges and said that the wifi was too slow to access Volvo. Then I sailed to Grenada Marine (St Davids Harbour) and went alongside the agents dock. He still could not access the diagnostic database. I was furious. I had sailed up especially. It transpired that he had not paid his fee and his access code had expired. He then said my fault was the 12v alternator over charging as it was at 14v, which was too high.  I told him to forget it as I knew he was talking rubbish. I refused to pay. (the voltage regulator on that 12v alternator specs it to that voltage, I checked)

I gave up, and sailed to Trinidad and the Volvo agent there diagnosed the problem to the Turbo. He plugged in and accessed the system, the fault code went away.  The boat was out of the water at the time and he said that the problem would be solved by servicing the turbo. So I removed it and had it serviced in the UK. They said it was perfect and did not need servicing.  When I launched and left to sail north I gunned the engine and the fault code came back as before. I continued to sail without the turbo kicking in, so achieved only 2200 RPM. Sound familiar??

I sailed to Martinique. There the Volvo agent plugged in the computer and said it was the boost sensor. He replaced it there and then as it was in stock. Problem solved. Touch wood. Have boost pressure under load get full RPM etc etc. Have fully tested it all. Now some 9 months later, I am happy we got there in the end.

So eventually on the third Volvo agent the problem was correctly diagnosed and fixed.

1.You will forgive me for being so cynical as to suggest you check that the agent has fully paid up for access to Volvo diagnostics. 

2. It will be interesting to hear your news re prop removal.

3. Did you get boost pressure kicking in at about 1400/1500 RPM when the prop was on? If not suspect the boost sensor.



Nick 

(Amelia) missing her already.




On 31 Aug 2018, at 16:06, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

So rational. Thank you Bill

I am gearing up to get under the boat, take off the prop, while reading kids book reports!  
My engine report to follow this afternoon!

Porter
54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 9:51 AM, Bill Rouse brouse@...[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

Some random thoughts...read the last paragraph/suggestion.

I believe any alignment problem will present itself with considerable vibration.

I think you should press Volvo, but I guess you could disconnect the Vetus coupling and see what RPM you can achieve with the transmission in gear. I don't know what the RPM should be in this case, but probably very close to the RPM achieved in neutral. 

I believe an alternator could be a source of too much load, however, if you achieve high RPM in neutral, the alternator(s) can be eliminated.

We must remember that the Volvo computer is designed to prevent sending more fuel to the injectors than the engine is capable of burning. This minimizes pollution, which was the primary goal of the D3. The best example of pollution caused by sending more diesel to diesel cylinders is exhibited by large trucks accelerating with plumes of black smoke (unburned diesel).

What about this scenario:
Remembering that Volvo specified the prop, what about an RPM test with no prop? I believe if you achieve high RPM, you have eliminated all connected sources of friction and proven that the only source of your problem is the Volvo engine and probably, wiring, sensors, or computer.

I hope this helps.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 8:27 AM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill 

As always I really appreciate your thoughts on this... I think it is the computer or sensors too. Also we were getting 2600 rpm before that long block exchange (with poor compression). 
So today I’ll try and wiggle the fixed prop off and run the naked spline. 

And I’ll take you up on your offer of a letter to Volvo. 

Thanks again Guru

Porter. A54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 4:36 PM, Bill Rouse brouse@...[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

If you can easily spin the prop in neutral with the shaft brake OFF, the C-drive isn't adding friction.

I think that you have two remaining possibilities:
  1. The brand new transmission is faulty, when it was not faulty before the long block change (I think very, very unlikely)
  2. Volvo Computer is not allowing higher RPMs for some unknown reason.
With a new transmission, a changed prop (which Volvo spec'd in the 1st place), and the c-drive tested, I have to believe that the problem is with the Volvo Computer. There is one more reason I point to the Volvo Computer: Of all of the possibilities, it is the most likely because of our combined experience with Volvo, the D3 and its computer.

I will happily write Volvo a more detailed explanation when you get to that point..

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:05 PM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups..com> wrote:
 

Nick. Yes. Thank you. 


Re WOT out of gear: 3100rpm

The transmission is fairly new:  replaced in he spring. 


Re friction within the cdrive. 

With engine idling in neutral, brake open I swim under the boat and can easily spin the prop. 

How can I better evaluate resistance in the system?: motor—New ZF tranny—vetus(friction??)— cdrive— prop. 

I think the next step is to take the fixed prop off. 
I need a gear puller to get it off I think (which I don’t have and need to get (any recommendations?).... Unless anyone has another suggestion? Tying the autoprop puller to the fixed prop using low stretch amsteel?  

Again all very good suggestions. 

Let’s say it is the cdrive. What then??????

Thank you all!!

Porter 

Amel 54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 12:47 PM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Sorry Porter,


Just going over the email again.

You have max RPM of 2200 at WOT with the new fixed prop, right? If so that can not be correct. It should be around 2850.  I doubt Amel would supply a spare prop that is not correct for the engine, at least not to that degree. To be so far from the desired RPM at WOT may cause problems with your new engine. 

What RPM can you achieve out of gear? 

What about the C drive? Have you checked that is working without friction? 


On my 54 with 2006 D3 110 and the Autoprop I get 2850 at WOT, with a clean prop and hull. 

Nick



On 30 Aug 2018, at 15:46, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Thank you everyone for your thoughts re our engine woes they are quite appreciated. 


May I ask thoughts re expected rpm during WOT with the supplied fixed prop on the Amel 54?


Has anyone with the fixed prop determined an observed RPM with WOT?  Volvo is telling me that they think 2200 is due to too large a prop. Now I know the H6 is a slight over propping, reducing the expected 3100-3200 Volvo D3-110 to your observed 2900ish range. 

But 2200 (our WOT RPM with the fixed prop in calm seas) is much lower than 2900, and I have a hard time thinking such a great drop is due to the lack of prop arm adjustment for appropriate bite as seen with the autoprop. 

Any data would be very appreciated. 

Many thanks

Porter Helen Grace and Lilly
S/V Ibis A54-152
Isla Contadora, Panama

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Porter,

I watched the video that is a massive reduction in RPM.. Is their black smoke when it does that because it looks like the engine is seriously overloaded and about to stall?

So the fixed blade prop stops it right. Therefore there is nothing wrong with the engine itself.

Thus it must be something to do with the Bruntons Autoprop, which is a variable pitch prop.

The pitch varies automatically in order to maximise efficiency. "The Autoprop blades, unlike those of conventional propellers, maximise the thrust delivered whatever rpm the yachts engine is running at “

quote from Autoprop website.

So if the thrust  is maximised at all times then load on the engine must vary a bit. Just like say the big alternator kicking in when one runs a heavy load off it, say a toaster for example. So I would expect a slight variability in the rpm as the load on the engine varies but not like in your video.

Agreed there is something wrong with the prop. You could strip it down yourself, it is pretty easy, before returning for service.


Nick

Amelia (Amel 54 019) back at home for a bit.

On 30 Aug 2018, at 10:44, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Porter,

Wow, that is a pretty major "wander" in the video, so glad to see it was resolved by changing prop.  
Your numbers look ok, except for WOT 2200 seems awfully low. I think you do need to follow that up with Volvo, particularly with the fixed prop now in place.

I checked my WOT this morning in flat water/no wind and it was stable at 2920rpm.  

I also took a short video of the wandering I was referring to, its in the" ZF25 Transmission" folder in the files section.  It shows a variation from 1170 to 1210, difficult to hear the engine note on the video, but 40rpm variation is just enough to make the ears prick up!. Given yours and Mohammad's observations, i'll put it down to propeller effects..

I've also uploaded my Sea Trial results from a few weeks ago after we had the gearbox fitted.
It was a bit choppy and breezy, so the speeds are a bit lower than we get in flat water.

Danny, and others - I've solved my oil leak.  Not sure exactly what to attribute it to.
I found an extra 1/4 turn on one of the fwd end sump bolts, but I've also done my regular oil/filter change including replacing the Oring on the oil filter cap.  One of those things solved it - I suspect the filter cap may have been the culprit.   

Cheers
Dean
SY Stella
AMEL 54 #154














Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Autoprop Puller

 

Here is the one made by AutoProp:

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 8:23 AM sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

I borrowed a tool from the boatyard to pull the prop and it worked great.  I'm not sure if this is the right size or not but it's only $35.20!  


https://www.grainger.com/product/WESTWARD-Flange-Puller-29FX49


It accomodates pulling items from shafts connected with three bolts like the Autoprop, and it came off without any trouble.  You'll have to supply your own bolts to replace those holding on the prop zinc (or the red nose cone) with suitable washers since the slots are 5/8" wide.  This is at least $200 less than the Autoprop puller.


Duane


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Expected RPM at WOT

Porter McRoberts
 

Today’s test results WOT comparison of peak RPM: out of gear and in gear but with prop removed. 

After warming up engine to working temperature. 
Out of gear WOT: 3200 RPM
In gear (but no prop) WOT: 3190 RPM 

Can I say with near certainty the problem must lie within the engine itself as the gear presents negligible resistance?  


Thank you all!!

Porter
A54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 11:30 AM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

We all feel for you Porter,


"There but for the grace of God go I”

In your video, at first view, it looked like overload, but was there black smoke at the same time? I doubt it as you would have said, therefore it is likely to be fuel starvation which brings us back to the whole box of magic namely the computerised fuel control and its associated sensors and wiring. So yes I agree with Bill and what is now becoming the general consensus. It is a sensor or computer problem!!!!

You will be at the mercy of the almighty VOLVO agent. You would have thought that the Volvo agent’s diagnostic computer that plugs in below the cockpit instruments (in the locker above the sink) would diagnose such a failing in moment. Alas I guess not. It might be worth checking that they are fully paid up to Volvo and have access to the Volvo system.

I have  mixed experience of Volvo agents. And am now beginning to wonder if your problem is not Turbo related. 

This is my story:

In Grenada I had a fault code on the EVC, I called the agent and he came on board in St Georges and said that the wifi was too slow to access Volvo. Then I sailed to Grenada Marine (St Davids Harbour) and went alongside the agents dock. He still could not access the diagnostic database. I was furious. I had sailed up especially. It transpired that he had not paid his fee and his access code had expired. He then said my fault was the 12v alternator over charging as it was at 14v, which was too high.  I told him to forget it as I knew he was talking rubbish. I refused to pay. (the voltage regulator on that 12v alternator specs it to that voltage, I checked)

I gave up, and sailed to Trinidad and the Volvo agent there diagnosed the problem to the Turbo. He plugged in and accessed the system, the fault code went away.  The boat was out of the water at the time and he said that the problem would be solved by servicing the turbo. So I removed it and had it serviced in the UK. They said it was perfect and did not need servicing.  When I launched and left to sail north I gunned the engine and the fault code came back as before. I continued to sail without the turbo kicking in, so achieved only 2200 RPM. Sound familiar??

I sailed to Martinique. There the Volvo agent plugged in the computer and said it was the boost sensor. He replaced it there and then as it was in stock. Problem solved. Touch wood. Have boost pressure under load get full RPM etc etc. Have fully tested it all. Now some 9 months later, I am happy we got there in the end.

So eventually on the third Volvo agent the problem was correctly diagnosed and fixed.

1.You will forgive me for being so cynical as to suggest you check that the agent has fully paid up for access to Volvo diagnostics. 

2. It will be interesting to hear your news re prop removal.

3. Did you get boost pressure kicking in at about 1400/1500 RPM when the prop was on? If not suspect the boost sensor.



Nick 

(Amelia) missing her already.




On 31 Aug 2018, at 16:06, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

So rational. Thank you Bill

I am gearing up to get under the boat, take off the prop, while reading kids book reports!  
My engine report to follow this afternoon!

Porter
54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 9:51 AM, Bill Rouse brouse@...[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

Some random thoughts...read the last paragraph/suggestion.

I believe any alignment problem will present itself with considerable vibration.

I think you should press Volvo, but I guess you could disconnect the Vetus coupling and see what RPM you can achieve with the transmission in gear. I don't know what the RPM should be in this case, but probably very close to the RPM achieved in neutral. 

I believe an alternator could be a source of too much load, however, if you achieve high RPM in neutral, the alternator(s) can be eliminated.

We must remember that the Volvo computer is designed to prevent sending more fuel to the injectors than the engine is capable of burning. This minimizes pollution, which was the primary goal of the D3. The best example of pollution caused by sending more diesel to diesel cylinders is exhibited by large trucks accelerating with plumes of black smoke (unburned diesel).

What about this scenario:
Remembering that Volvo specified the prop, what about an RPM test with no prop? I believe if you achieve high RPM, you have eliminated all connected sources of friction and proven that the only source of your problem is the Volvo engine and probably, wiring, sensors, or computer.

I hope this helps.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 8:27 AM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill 

As always I really appreciate your thoughts on this... I think it is the computer or sensors too. Also we were getting 2600 rpm before that long block exchange (with poor compression). 
So today I’ll try and wiggle the fixed prop off and run the naked spline. 

And I’ll take you up on your offer of a letter to Volvo. 

Thanks again Guru

Porter. A54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 4:36 PM, Bill Rouse brouse@...[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

If you can easily spin the prop in neutral with the shaft brake OFF, the C-drive isn't adding friction.

I think that you have two remaining possibilities:
  1. The brand new transmission is faulty, when it was not faulty before the long block change (I think very, very unlikely)
  2. Volvo Computer is not allowing higher RPMs for some unknown reason.
With a new transmission, a changed prop (which Volvo spec'd in the 1st place), and the c-drive tested, I have to believe that the problem is with the Volvo Computer. There is one more reason I point to the Volvo Computer: Of all of the possibilities, it is the most likely because of our combined experience with Volvo, the D3 and its computer.

I will happily write Volvo a more detailed explanation when you get to that point..

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:05 PM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups..com> wrote:
 

Nick. Yes. Thank you. 


Re WOT out of gear: 3100rpm

The transmission is fairly new:  replaced in he spring. 


Re friction within the cdrive. 

With engine idling in neutral, brake open I swim under the boat and can easily spin the prop. 

How can I better evaluate resistance in the system?: motor—New ZF tranny—vetus(friction??)— cdrive— prop. 

I think the next step is to take the fixed prop off. 
I need a gear puller to get it off I think (which I don’t have and need to get (any recommendations?)... Unless anyone has another suggestion? Tying the autoprop puller to the fixed prop using low stretch amsteel?  

Again all very good suggestions. 

Let’s say it is the cdrive. What then??????

Thank you all!!

Porter 

Amel 54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 12:47 PM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Sorry Porter,


Just going over the email again.

You have max RPM of 2200 at WOT with the new fixed prop, right? If so that can not be correct. It should be around 2850.  I doubt Amel would supply a spare prop that is not correct for the engine, at least not to that degree. To be so far from the desired RPM at WOT may cause problems with your new engine. 

What RPM can you achieve out of gear? 

What about the C drive? Have you checked that is working without friction? 


On my 54 with 2006 D3 110 and the Autoprop I get 2850 at WOT, with a clean prop and hull. 

Nick



On 30 Aug 2018, at 15:46, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Thank you everyone for your thoughts re our engine woes they are quite appreciated. 


May I ask thoughts re expected rpm during WOT with the supplied fixed prop on the Amel 54?


Has anyone with the fixed prop determined an observed RPM with WOT?  Volvo is telling me that they think 2200 is due to too large a prop. Now I know the H6 is a slight over propping, reducing the expected 3100-3200 Volvo D3-110 to your observed 2900ish range. 

But 2200 (our WOT RPM with the fixed prop in calm seas) is much lower than 2900, and I have a hard time thinking such a great drop is due to the lack of prop arm adjustment for appropriate bite as seen with the autoprop. 

Any data would be very appreciated. 

Many thanks

Porter Helen Grace and Lilly
S/V Ibis A54-152
Isla Contadora, Panama

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Porter,

I watched the video that is a massive reduction in RPM.. Is their black smoke when it does that because it looks like the engine is seriously overloaded and about to stall?

So the fixed blade prop stops it right. Therefore there is nothing wrong with the engine itself.

Thus it must be something to do with the Bruntons Autoprop, which is a variable pitch prop.

The pitch varies automatically in order to maximise efficiency. "The Autoprop blades, unlike those of conventional propellers, maximise the thrust delivered whatever rpm the yachts engine is running at “

quote from Autoprop website.

So if the thrust  is maximised at all times then load on the engine must vary a bit. Just like say the big alternator kicking in when one runs a heavy load off it, say a toaster for example. So I would expect a slight variability in the rpm as the load on the engine varies but not like in your video.

Agreed there is something wrong with the prop. You could strip it down yourself, it is pretty easy, before returning for service.


Nick

Amelia (Amel 54 019) back at home for a bit.

On 30 Aug 2018, at 10:44, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Porter,

Wow, that is a pretty major "wander" in the video, so glad to see it was resolved by changing prop.  
Your numbers look ok, except for WOT 2200 seems awfully low. I think you do need to follow that up with Volvo, particularly with the fixed prop now in place.

I checked my WOT this morning in flat water/no wind and it was stable at 2920rpm.  

I also took a short video of the wandering I was referring to, its in the" ZF25 Transmission" folder in the files section.  It shows a variation from 1170 to 1210, difficult to hear the engine note on the video, but 40rpm variation is just enough to make the ears prick up!. Given yours and Mohammad's observations, i'll put it down to propeller effects..

I've also uploaded my Sea Trial results from a few weeks ago after we had the gearbox fitted.
It was a bit choppy and breezy, so the speeds are a bit lower than we get in flat water.

Danny, and others - I've solved my oil leak.  Not sure exactly what to attribute it to.
I found an extra 1/4 turn on one of the fwd end sump bolts, but I've also done my regular oil/filter change including replacing the Oring on the oil filter cap.  One of those things solved it - I suspect the filter cap may have been the culprit.   

Cheers
Dean
SY Stella
AMEL 54 #154














Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Expected RPM at WOT

ngtnewington Newington
 

We all feel for you Porter,

"There but for the grace of God go I”

In your video, at first view, it looked like overload, but was there black smoke at the same time? I doubt it as you would have said, therefore it is likely to be fuel starvation which brings us back to the whole box of magic namely the computerised fuel control and its associated sensors and wiring. So yes I agree with Bill and what is now becoming the general consensus. It is a sensor or computer problem!!!!

You will be at the mercy of the almighty VOLVO agent. You would have thought that the Volvo agent’s diagnostic computer that plugs in below the cockpit instruments (in the locker above the sink) would diagnose such a failing in moment. Alas I guess not. It might be worth checking that they are fully paid up to Volvo and have access to the Volvo system.

I have mixed experience of Volvo agents. And am now beginning to wonder if your problem is not Turbo related.

This is my story:

In Grenada I had a fault code on the EVC, I called the agent and he came on board in St Georges and said that the wifi was too slow to access Volvo. Then I sailed to Grenada Marine (St Davids Harbour) and went alongside the agents dock. He still could not access the diagnostic database. I was furious. I had sailed up especially. It transpired that he had not paid his fee and his access code had expired. He then said my fault was the 12v alternator over charging as it was at 14v, which was too high. I told him to forget it as I knew he was talking rubbish. I refused to pay. (the voltage regulator on that 12v alternator specs it to that voltage, I checked)

I gave up, and sailed to Trinidad and the Volvo agent there diagnosed the problem to the Turbo. He plugged in and accessed the system, the fault code went away. The boat was out of the water at the time and he said that the problem would be solved by servicing the turbo. So I removed it and had it serviced in the UK. They said it was perfect and did not need servicing. When I launched and left to sail north I gunned the engine and the fault code came back as before. I continued to sail without the turbo kicking in, so achieved only 2200 RPM. Sound familiar??

I sailed to Martinique. There the Volvo agent plugged in the computer and said it was the boost sensor. He replaced it there and then as it was in stock. Problem solved. Touch wood. Have boost pressure under load get full RPM etc etc. Have fully tested it all. Now some 9 months later, I am happy we got there in the end.

So eventually on the third Volvo agent the problem was correctly diagnosed and fixed.

1.You will forgive me for being so cynical as to suggest you check that the agent has fully paid up for access to Volvo diagnostics.

2. It will be interesting to hear your news re prop removal.

3. Did you get boost pressure kicking in at about 1400/1500 RPM when the prop was on? If not suspect the boost sensor.



Nick

(Amelia) missing her already.

On 31 Aug 2018, at 16:06, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@yahoo.com [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

So rational. Thank you Bill

I am gearing up to get under the boat, take off the prop, while reading kids book reports!
My engine report to follow this afternoon!

Porter
54-152

Excuse the errors.
Sent from my IPhone
Www.fouribis.com <http://www.fouribis..com/>

On Aug 31, 2018, at 9:51 AM, Bill Rouse brouse@gmail.com <mailto:brouse@gmail.com>[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:



Porter,

Some random thoughts...read the last paragraph/suggestion.

I believe any alignment problem will present itself with considerable vibration.

I think you should press Volvo, but I guess you could disconnect the Vetus coupling and see what RPM you can achieve with the transmission in gear. I don't know what the RPM should be in this case, but probably very close to the RPM achieved in neutral.

I believe an alternator could be a source of too much load, however, if you achieve high RPM in neutral, the alternator(s) can be eliminated.

We must remember that the Volvo computer is designed to prevent sending more fuel to the injectors than the engine is capable of burning. This minimizes pollution, which was the primary goal of the D3. The best example of pollution caused by sending more diesel to diesel cylinders is exhibited by large trucks accelerating with plumes of black smoke (unburned diesel).

What about this scenario:
Remembering that Volvo specified the prop, what about an RPM test with no prop? I believe if you achieve high RPM, you have eliminated all connected sources of friction and proven that the only source of your problem is the Volvo engine and probably, wiring, sensors, or computer.

I hope this helps.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School <http://www.amelschool.com/> http://www.amelschool.com <http://www.amelschool..com/>
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970 <>
My Calendar <https://theamelschool.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html>

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 8:27 AM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@yahoo.com <mailto:portermcroberts@yahoo.com> [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

Bill

As always I really appreciate your thoughts on this... I think it is the computer or sensors too. Also we were getting 2600 rpm before that long block exchange (with poor compression).
So today I’ll try and wiggle the fixed prop off and run the naked spline.

And I’ll take you up on your offer of a letter to Volvo.

Thanks again Guru

Porter. A54-152

Excuse the errors.
Sent from my IPhone
Www.fouribis.com <http://www.fouribis.com/>

On Aug 30, 2018, at 4:36 PM, Bill Rouse brouse@gmail.com <mailto:brouse@gmail.com>[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups..com>> wrote:



Porter,

If you can easily spin the prop in neutral with the shaft brake OFF, the C-drive isn't adding friction.

I think that you have two remaining possibilities:
The brand new transmission is faulty, when it was not faulty before the long block change (I think very, very unlikely)
Volvo Computer is not allowing higher RPMs for some unknown reason.
With a new transmission, a changed prop (which Volvo spec'd in the 1st place), and the c-drive tested, I have to believe that the problem is with the Volvo Computer. There is one more reason I point to the Volvo Computer: Of all of the possibilities, it is the most likely because of our combined experience with Volvo, the D3 and its computer.

I will happily write Volvo a more detailed explanation when you get to that point..

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School <http://www.amelschool....com/> http://www.amelschool.com <http://www.amelschool..com/>
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970 <>
My Calendar <https://theamelschool.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html>

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:05 PM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@yahoo.com <mailto:portermcroberts@yahoo.com> [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups..com <mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

Nick. Yes. Thank you.


Re WOT out of gear: 3100rpm

The transmission is fairly new: replaced in he spring.


Re friction within the cdrive.

With engine idling in neutral, brake open I swim under the boat and can easily spin the prop.

How can I better evaluate resistance in the system?: motor—New ZF tranny—vetus(friction??)— cdrive— prop.

I think the next step is to take the fixed prop off.
I need a gear puller to get it off I think (which I don’t have and need to get (any recommendations?).. Unless anyone has another suggestion? Tying the autoprop puller to the fixed prop using low stretch amsteel?

Again all very good suggestions.

Let’s say it is the cdrive. What then??????

Thank you all!!

Porter

Amel 54-152

Excuse the errors.
Sent from my IPhone
Www.fouribis.com <http://www.fouribis.com/>

On Aug 30, 2018, at 12:47 PM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@aol.com <mailto:ngtnewington@aol.com> [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:


Sorry Porter,


Just going over the email again.

You have max RPM of 2200 at WOT with the new fixed prop, right? If so that can not be correct. It should be around 2850. I doubt Amel would supply a spare prop that is not correct for the engine, at least not to that degree. To be so far from the desired RPM at WOT may cause problems with your new engine.

What RPM can you achieve out of gear?

What about the C drive? Have you checked that is working without friction?


On my 54 with 2006 D3 110 and the Autoprop I get 2850 at WOT, with a clean prop and hull.

Nick



On 30 Aug 2018, at 15:46, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@yahoo.com <mailto:portermcroberts@yahoo.com> [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

Thank you everyone for your thoughts re our engine woes they are quite appreciated.


May I ask thoughts re expected rpm during WOT with the supplied fixed prop on the Amel 54?


Has anyone with the fixed prop determined an observed RPM with WOT? Volvo is telling me that they think 2200 is due to too large a prop. Now I know the H6 is a slight over propping, reducing the expected 3100-3200 Volvo D3-110 to your observed 2900ish range.

But 2200 (our WOT RPM with the fixed prop in calm seas) is much lower than 2900, and I have a hard time thinking such a great drop is due to the lack of prop arm adjustment for appropriate bite as seen with the autoprop.

Any data would be very appreciated.

Many thanks

Porter Helen Grace and Lilly
S/V Ibis A54-152
Isla Contadora, Panama

Excuse the errors.
Sent from my IPhone
Www.fouribis.com <http://www.fouribis.com/>

On Aug 30, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@aol.com <mailto:ngtnewington@aol.com> [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:



Hi Porter,

I watched the video that is a massive reduction in RPM.. Is their black smoke when it does that because it looks like the engine is seriously overloaded and about to stall?

So the fixed blade prop stops it right. Therefore there is nothing wrong with the engine itself.

Thus it must be something to do with the Bruntons Autoprop, which is a variable pitch prop.

The pitch varies automatically in order to maximise efficiency. "The Autoprop blades, unlike those of conventional propellers, maximise the thrust delivered whatever rpm the yachts engine is running at “

quote from Autoprop website.

So if the thrust is maximised at all times then load on the engine must vary a bit. Just like say the big alternator kicking in when one runs a heavy load off it, say a toaster for example. So I would expect a slight variability in the rpm as the load on the engine varies but not like in your video.

Agreed there is something wrong with the prop. You could strip it down yourself, it is pretty easy, before returning for service.


Nick

Amelia (Amel 54 019) back at home for a bit.

On 30 Aug 2018, at 10:44, trifin@soundthinking.com.au <mailto:trifin@soundthinking.com.au> [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

Porter,

Wow, that is a pretty major "wander" in the video, so glad to see it was resolved by changing prop.
Your numbers look ok, except for WOT 2200 seems awfully low. I think you do need to follow that up with Volvo, particularly with the fixed prop now in place.

I checked my WOT this morning in flat water/no wind and it was stable at 2920rpm.

I also took a short video of the wandering I was referring to, its in the" ZF25 Transmission" folder in the files section. It shows a variation from 1170 to 1210, difficult to hear the engine note on the video, but 40rpm variation is just enough to make the ears prick up!. Given yours and Mohammad's observations, i'll put it down to propeller effects..

I've also uploaded my Sea Trial results from a few weeks ago after we had the gearbox fitted.
It was a bit choppy and breezy, so the speeds are a bit lower than we get in flat water.

Danny, and others - I've solved my oil leak. Not sure exactly what to attribute it to.
I found an extra 1/4 turn on one of the fwd end sump bolts, but I've also done my regular oil/filter change including replacing the Oring on the oil filter cap. One of those things solved it - I suspect the filter cap may have been the culprit.

Cheers
Dean
SY Stella
AMEL 54 #154





Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Washing machine removal

Porter McRoberts
 

First hand experience Paul. 

Hardest part by far is finding suitable replacement for the existing unit. 
1. Start by removing handrail above the forward head: look in small hallway closet. 
2. You have to remove the shelf and the carpeted pvc pipe ac duct cover/protector. 
3. Get behind the unit via panel in port bedroom 4. Remove knurled knobs securing washer to panel. Remove and turn off fresh water supply and unplug from 239v outlet 
5. A 2x4 helps facilitate pulling unit out. It’s heavy and may damage toilet. 2 people a plug for this. 
6 once out disassemble unit at the top and find the counter balance/ weight. Removing this significantly diminishes weight of the machine so it’s safely maneuverable.   

7. Out it goes. 

8. Reverse steps with New or fixed unit 

9. Enjoy champagne with elated spouse. 

Hope this helps. 

Porter 
A54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 9:30 AM, sharongbrown@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi all,

Would someone have any experience in removing the clothes washer from its mounting in the Amel 54?

Cheers,
Paul
Ya Fohi - Amel 54 #98



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Expected RPM at WOT

Porter McRoberts
 

So rational. Thank you Bill
I am gearing up to get under the boat, take off the prop, while reading kids book reports!  
My engine report to follow this afternoon!

Porter
54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 9:51 AM, Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

Some random thoughts...read the last paragraph/suggestion.

I believe any alignment problem will present itself with considerable vibration.

I think you should press Volvo, but I guess you could disconnect the Vetus coupling and see what RPM you can achieve with the transmission in gear. I don't know what the RPM should be in this case, but probably very close to the RPM achieved in neutral. 

I believe an alternator could be a source of too much load, however, if you achieve high RPM in neutral, the alternator(s) can be eliminated.

We must remember that the Volvo computer is designed to prevent sending more fuel to the injectors than the engine is capable of burning. This minimizes pollution, which was the primary goal of the D3. The best example of pollution caused by sending more diesel to diesel cylinders is exhibited by large trucks accelerating with plumes of black smoke (unburned diesel).

What about this scenario:
Remembering that Volvo specified the prop, what about an RPM test with no prop? I believe if you achieve high RPM, you have eliminated all connected sources of friction and proven that the only source of your problem is the Volvo engine and probably, wiring, sensors, or computer.

I hope this helps.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 8:27 AM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill 

As always I really appreciate your thoughts on this... I think it is the computer or sensors too. Also we were getting 2600 rpm before that long block exchange (with poor compression). 
So today I’ll try and wiggle the fixed prop off and run the naked spline. 

And I’ll take you up on your offer of a letter to Volvo. 

Thanks again Guru

Porter. A54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 4:36 PM, Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

If you can easily spin the prop in neutral with the shaft brake OFF, the C-drive isn't adding friction.

I think that you have two remaining possibilities:
  1. The brand new transmission is faulty, when it was not faulty before the long block change (I think very, very unlikely)
  2. Volvo Computer is not allowing higher RPMs for some unknown reason.
With a new transmission, a changed prop (which Volvo spec'd in the 1st place), and the c-drive tested, I have to believe that the problem is with the Volvo Computer. There is one more reason I point to the Volvo Computer: Of all of the possibilities, it is the most likely because of our combined experience with Volvo, the D3 and its computer.

I will happily write Volvo a more detailed explanation when you get to that point..

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:05 PM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Nick. Yes. Thank you. 


Re WOT out of gear: 3100rpm

The transmission is fairly new:  replaced in he spring. 


Re friction within the cdrive. 

With engine idling in neutral, brake open I swim under the boat and can easily spin the prop. 

How can I better evaluate resistance in the system?: motor—New ZF tranny—vetus(friction??)— cdrive— prop. 

I think the next step is to take the fixed prop off. 
I need a gear puller to get it off I think (which I don’t have and need to get (any recommendations?).. Unless anyone has another suggestion? Tying the autoprop puller to the fixed prop using low stretch amsteel?  

Again all very good suggestions. 

Let’s say it is the cdrive. What then??????

Thank you all!!

Porter 

Amel 54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 12:47 PM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Sorry Porter,


Just going over the email again.

You have max RPM of 2200 at WOT with the new fixed prop, right? If so that can not be correct. It should be around 2850.  I doubt Amel would supply a spare prop that is not correct for the engine, at least not to that degree. To be so far from the desired RPM at WOT may cause problems with your new engine. 

What RPM can you achieve out of gear? 

What about the C drive? Have you checked that is working without friction? 


On my 54 with 2006 D3 110 and the Autoprop I get 2850 at WOT, with a clean prop and hull. 

Nick



On 30 Aug 2018, at 15:46, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Thank you everyone for your thoughts re our engine woes they are quite appreciated. 


May I ask thoughts re expected rpm during WOT with the supplied fixed prop on the Amel 54?


Has anyone with the fixed prop determined an observed RPM with WOT?  Volvo is telling me that they think 2200 is due to too large a prop. Now I know the H6 is a slight over propping, reducing the expected 3100-3200 Volvo D3-110 to your observed 2900ish range. 

But 2200 (our WOT RPM with the fixed prop in calm seas) is much lower than 2900, and I have a hard time thinking such a great drop is due to the lack of prop arm adjustment for appropriate bite as seen with the autoprop. 

Any data would be very appreciated. 

Many thanks

Porter Helen Grace and Lilly
S/V Ibis A54-152
Isla Contadora, Panama

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Porter,

I watched the video that is a massive reduction in RPM.. Is their black smoke when it does that because it looks like the engine is seriously overloaded and about to stall?

So the fixed blade prop stops it right. Therefore there is nothing wrong with the engine itself.

Thus it must be something to do with the Bruntons Autoprop, which is a variable pitch prop.

The pitch varies automatically in order to maximise efficiency. "The Autoprop blades, unlike those of conventional propellers, maximise the thrust delivered whatever rpm the yachts engine is running at “

quote from Autoprop website.

So if the thrust  is maximised at all times then load on the engine must vary a bit. Just like say the big alternator kicking in when one runs a heavy load off it, say a toaster for example. So I would expect a slight variability in the rpm as the load on the engine varies but not like in your video.

Agreed there is something wrong with the prop. You could strip it down yourself, it is pretty easy, before returning for service.


Nick

Amelia (Amel 54 019) back at home for a bit.

On 30 Aug 2018, at 10:44, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Porter,

Wow, that is a pretty major "wander" in the video, so glad to see it was resolved by changing prop.  
Your numbers look ok, except for WOT 2200 seems awfully low. I think you do need to follow that up with Volvo, particularly with the fixed prop now in place.

I checked my WOT this morning in flat water/no wind and it was stable at 2920rpm.  

I also took a short video of the wandering I was referring to, its in the" ZF25 Transmission" folder in the files section.  It shows a variation from 1170 to 1210, difficult to hear the engine note on the video, but 40rpm variation is just enough to make the ears prick up!. Given yours and Mohammad's observations, i'll put it down to propeller effects..

I've also uploaded my Sea Trial results from a few weeks ago after we had the gearbox fitted.
It was a bit choppy and breezy, so the speeds are a bit lower than we get in flat water.

Danny, and others - I've solved my oil leak.  Not sure exactly what to attribute it to.
I found an extra 1/4 turn on one of the fwd end sump bolts, but I've also done my regular oil/filter change including replacing the Oring on the oil filter cap.  One of those things solved it - I suspect the filter cap may have been the culprit.   

Cheers
Dean
SY Stella
AMEL 54 #154







Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Expected RPM at WOT

 

Porter,

Some random thoughts...read the last paragraph/suggestion.

I believe any alignment problem will present itself with considerable vibration.

I think you should press Volvo, but I guess you could disconnect the Vetus coupling and see what RPM you can achieve with the transmission in gear. I don't know what the RPM should be in this case, but probably very close to the RPM achieved in neutral. 

I believe an alternator could be a source of too much load, however, if you achieve high RPM in neutral, the alternator(s) can be eliminated.

We must remember that the Volvo computer is designed to prevent sending more fuel to the injectors than the engine is capable of burning. This minimizes pollution, which was the primary goal of the D3. The best example of pollution caused by sending more diesel to diesel cylinders is exhibited by large trucks accelerating with plumes of black smoke (unburned diesel).

What about this scenario:
Remembering that Volvo specified the prop, what about an RPM test with no prop? I believe if you achieve high RPM, you have eliminated all connected sources of friction and proven that the only source of your problem is the Volvo engine and probably, wiring, sensors, or computer.

I hope this helps.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 8:27 AM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill 

As always I really appreciate your thoughts on this.. I think it is the computer or sensors too. Also we were getting 2600 rpm before that long block exchange (with poor compression). 
So today I’ll try and wiggle the fixed prop off and run the naked spline. 

And I’ll take you up on your offer of a letter to Volvo. 

Thanks again Guru

Porter. A54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 4:36 PM, Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

If you can easily spin the prop in neutral with the shaft brake OFF, the C-drive isn't adding friction.

I think that you have two remaining possibilities:
  1. The brand new transmission is faulty, when it was not faulty before the long block change (I think very, very unlikely)
  2. Volvo Computer is not allowing higher RPMs for some unknown reason.
With a new transmission, a changed prop (which Volvo spec'd in the 1st place), and the c-drive tested, I have to believe that the problem is with the Volvo Computer. There is one more reason I point to the Volvo Computer: Of all of the possibilities, it is the most likely because of our combined experience with Volvo, the D3 and its computer.

I will happily write Volvo a more detailed explanation when you get to that point.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:05 PM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Nick. Yes. Thank you. 


Re WOT out of gear: 3100rpm

The transmission is fairly new:  replaced in he spring. 


Re friction within the cdrive. 

With engine idling in neutral, brake open I swim under the boat and can easily spin the prop. 

How can I better evaluate resistance in the system?: motor—New ZF tranny—vetus(friction??)— cdrive— prop. 

I think the next step is to take the fixed prop off. 
I need a gear puller to get it off I think (which I don’t have and need to get (any recommendations?).. Unless anyone has another suggestion? Tying the autoprop puller to the fixed prop using low stretch amsteel?  

Again all very good suggestions. 

Let’s say it is the cdrive. What then??????

Thank you all!!

Porter 

Amel 54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 12:47 PM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Sorry Porter,


Just going over the email again.

You have max RPM of 2200 at WOT with the new fixed prop, right? If so that can not be correct. It should be around 2850.  I doubt Amel would supply a spare prop that is not correct for the engine, at least not to that degree. To be so far from the desired RPM at WOT may cause problems with your new engine. 

What RPM can you achieve out of gear? 

What about the C drive? Have you checked that is working without friction? 


On my 54 with 2006 D3 110 and the Autoprop I get 2850 at WOT, with a clean prop and hull. 

Nick



On 30 Aug 2018, at 15:46, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Thank you everyone for your thoughts re our engine woes they are quite appreciated. 


May I ask thoughts re expected rpm during WOT with the supplied fixed prop on the Amel 54?


Has anyone with the fixed prop determined an observed RPM with WOT?  Volvo is telling me that they think 2200 is due to too large a prop. Now I know the H6 is a slight over propping, reducing the expected 3100-3200 Volvo D3-110 to your observed 2900ish range. 

But 2200 (our WOT RPM with the fixed prop in calm seas) is much lower than 2900, and I have a hard time thinking such a great drop is due to the lack of prop arm adjustment for appropriate bite as seen with the autoprop. 

Any data would be very appreciated. 

Many thanks

Porter Helen Grace and Lilly
S/V Ibis A54-152
Isla Contadora, Panama

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Porter,

I watched the video that is a massive reduction in RPM. Is their black smoke when it does that because it looks like the engine is seriously overloaded and about to stall?

So the fixed blade prop stops it right. Therefore there is nothing wrong with the engine itself.

Thus it must be something to do with the Bruntons Autoprop, which is a variable pitch prop.

The pitch varies automatically in order to maximise efficiency. "The Autoprop blades, unlike those of conventional propellers, maximise the thrust delivered whatever rpm the yachts engine is running at “

quote from Autoprop website.

So if the thrust  is maximised at all times then load on the engine must vary a bit. Just like say the big alternator kicking in when one runs a heavy load off it, say a toaster for example. So I would expect a slight variability in the rpm as the load on the engine varies but not like in your video.

Agreed there is something wrong with the prop. You could strip it down yourself, it is pretty easy, before returning for service.


Nick

Amelia (Amel 54 019) back at home for a bit.

On 30 Aug 2018, at 10:44, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Porter,

Wow, that is a pretty major "wander" in the video, so glad to see it was resolved by changing prop.  
Your numbers look ok, except for WOT 2200 seems awfully low. I think you do need to follow that up with Volvo, particularly with the fixed prop now in place.

I checked my WOT this morning in flat water/no wind and it was stable at 2920rpm.  

I also took a short video of the wandering I was referring to, its in the" ZF25 Transmission" folder in the files section.  It shows a variation from 1170 to 1210, difficult to hear the engine note on the video, but 40rpm variation is just enough to make the ears prick up!. Given yours and Mohammad's observations, i'll put it down to propeller effects..

I've also uploaded my Sea Trial results from a few weeks ago after we had the gearbox fitted.
It was a bit choppy and breezy, so the speeds are a bit lower than we get in flat water.

Danny, and others - I've solved my oil leak.  Not sure exactly what to attribute it to.
I found an extra 1/4 turn on one of the fwd end sump bolts, but I've also done my regular oil/filter change including replacing the Oring on the oil filter cap.  One of those things solved it - I suspect the filter cap may have been the culprit.   

Cheers
Dean
SY Stella
AMEL 54 #154







Washing machine removal

ya_fohi
 

Hi all,

Would someone have any experience in removing the clothes washer from its mounting in the Amel 54?

Cheers,
Paul
Ya Fohi - Amel 54 #98



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] D3-110I-C Wandering RPM

Porter McRoberts
 

Nick
Thank you. 

Particularly good intel from the website re the prop. Thank you!

I’m gonna send this thing in for a full service. I need to reduce variables in the equation for sure!  

Appreciated. 

Porter
A54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Porter,

I watched the video that is a massive reduction in RPM. Is their black smoke when it does that because it looks like the engine is seriously overloaded and about to stall?

So the fixed blade prop stops it right. Therefore there is nothing wrong with the engine itself.

Thus it must be something to do with the Bruntons Autoprop, which is a variable pitch prop.

The pitch varies automatically in order to maximise efficiency. "The Autoprop blades, unlike those of conventional propellers, maximise the thrust delivered whatever rpm the yachts engine is running at “

quote from Autoprop website.

So if the thrust  is maximised at all times then load on the engine must vary a bit. Just like say the big alternator kicking in when one runs a heavy load off it, say a toaster for example. So I would expect a slight variability in the rpm as the load on the engine varies but not like in your video.

Agreed there is something wrong with the prop. You could strip it down yourself, it is pretty easy, before returning for service.


Nick

Amelia (Amel 54 019) back at home for a bit.

On 30 Aug 2018, at 10:44, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Porter,

Wow, that is a pretty major "wander" in the video, so glad to see it was resolved by changing prop.  
Your numbers look ok, except for WOT 2200 seems awfully low. I think you do need to follow that up with Volvo, particularly with the fixed prop now in place.

I checked my WOT this morning in flat water/no wind and it was stable at 2920rpm.  

I also took a short video of the wandering I was referring to, its in the" ZF25 Transmission" folder in the files section.  It shows a variation from 1170 to 1210, difficult to hear the engine note on the video, but 40rpm variation is just enough to make the ears prick up!. Given yours and Mohammad's observations, i'll put it down to propeller effects.

I've also uploaded my Sea Trial results from a few weeks ago after we had the gearbox fitted.
It was a bit choppy and breezy, so the speeds are a bit lower than we get in flat water.

Danny, and others - I've solved my oil leak.  Not sure exactly what to attribute it to.
I found an extra 1/4 turn on one of the fwd end sump bolts, but I've also done my regular oil/filter change including replacing the Oring on the oil filter cap.  One of those things solved it - I suspect the filter cap may have been the culprit.   

Cheers
Dean
SY Stella
AMEL 54 #154




Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Expected RPM at WOT

Porter McRoberts
 

Dean thanks brother for the email. 

I don’t think Volvo will budge until I’ve removed all doubt in their minds that It could not be the drive train.   That I tell about the fixed prop is perfect and I very much appreciate it. I’ll pass that along. 

Re sensors: yes all old sensors. 
Re computer: interesting: after first arriving in Panama city CDM/Volvo cam to the boat and fried the computer. 2.5 weeks waiting for a new ECU which they paid for and then installed. They then they mucked up the wiring harnesses, I paid for that. Then they got around to looking at the boost pressure sensor: bad. Ordered new one. 2 weeks. Put in: Hey, now it’s all fixed!!!....NOT!  Oil from bad block contaminated new sensor too... in 8 weeks had never looked beyond the sensor. 
That’s when they finally traced source of sensor-oil to crankcase. 

Prop comes off today if I can get my Amsteel-autoprop puller contraption to pull off the fixed prop. 

I’ll let you guys know.  

Incidentally, on a different note this am we just rounded one megawatt production on our solar panels. Thanks Bill Rouse and even a thank you to the, not so popular on this forum, Riza who built and sent our (beautiful in my eyes) arch. 

You guys are great. Our here in this lonely anchorage it’s like having a back up team!  


So appreciated. 

Porter
A54-152



Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 12:54 AM, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,
Our WOT with the original Amel FIXED prop was just under 3000rpm when we sea-trialled the boat with Olivier last August.

I agree with Bill’s logic, I think you need to lean on Volvo to investigate further. I know that’s easy to say, but when you are in ‘exotic places’ it’s not so easy to do!

With everything else in the drive train tested, it has to be down to a sensor/interface problem or a software issue.

Did your old sensors get RE-installed in the system with the long block change?

I don’t know how easy it would be to achieve, but can the EVC unit be swapped over for testing by Volvo?
That should eliminate the EVC itself.

Given that you have good WOT under no-load conditions, it can only be either physical resistance in the drive train or perceived resistance by the sensors/software.

Are you proposing to remove the prop and re-test the drive train sans-propeller?
I believe that would seem to eliminate the physical resistance question.

Good luck mate, keep us posted we’re thinking of you 🤔

Cheers
Dean


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Expected RPM at WOT

Porter McRoberts
 

Bill 
As always I really appreciate your thoughts on this. I think it is the computer or sensors too. Also we were getting 2600 rpm before that long block exchange (with poor compression). 
So today I’ll try and wiggle the fixed prop off and run the naked spline. 

And I’ll take you up on your offer of a letter to Volvo. 

Thanks again Guru

Porter. A54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 4:36 PM, Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

If you can easily spin the prop in neutral with the shaft brake OFF, the C-drive isn't adding friction.

I think that you have two remaining possibilities:
  1. The brand new transmission is faulty, when it was not faulty before the long block change (I think very, very unlikely)
  2. Volvo Computer is not allowing higher RPMs for some unknown reason.
With a new transmission, a changed prop (which Volvo spec'd in the 1st place), and the c-drive tested, I have to believe that the problem is with the Volvo Computer. There is one more reason I point to the Volvo Computer: Of all of the possibilities, it is the most likely because of our combined experience with Volvo, the D3 and its computer.

I will happily write Volvo a more detailed explanation when you get to that point.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:05 PM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Nick. Yes. Thank you. 


Re WOT out of gear: 3100rpm

The transmission is fairly new:  replaced in he spring. 


Re friction within the cdrive. 

With engine idling in neutral, brake open I swim under the boat and can easily spin the prop. 

How can I better evaluate resistance in the system?: motor—New ZF tranny—vetus(friction??)— cdrive— prop. 

I think the next step is to take the fixed prop off. 
I need a gear puller to get it off I think (which I don’t have and need to get (any recommendations?).. Unless anyone has another suggestion? Tying the autoprop puller to the fixed prop using low stretch amsteel?  

Again all very good suggestions. 

Let’s say it is the cdrive. What then??????

Thank you all!!

Porter 

Amel 54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 12:47 PM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Sorry Porter,


Just going over the email again.

You have max RPM of 2200 at WOT with the new fixed prop, right? If so that can not be correct. It should be around 2850.  I doubt Amel would supply a spare prop that is not correct for the engine, at least not to that degree. To be so far from the desired RPM at WOT may cause problems with your new engine. 

What RPM can you achieve out of gear? 

What about the C drive? Have you checked that is working without friction? 


On my 54 with 2006 D3 110 and the Autoprop I get 2850 at WOT, with a clean prop and hull. 

Nick



On 30 Aug 2018, at 15:46, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Thank you everyone for your thoughts re our engine woes they are quite appreciated. 


May I ask thoughts re expected rpm during WOT with the supplied fixed prop on the Amel 54?


Has anyone with the fixed prop determined an observed RPM with WOT?  Volvo is telling me that they think 2200 is due to too large a prop. Now I know the H6 is a slight over propping, reducing the expected 3100-3200 Volvo D3-110 to your observed 2900ish range. 

But 2200 (our WOT RPM with the fixed prop in calm seas) is much lower than 2900, and I have a hard time thinking such a great drop is due to the lack of prop arm adjustment for appropriate bite as seen with the autoprop. 

Any data would be very appreciated. 

Many thanks

Porter Helen Grace and Lilly
S/V Ibis A54-152
Isla Contadora, Panama

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Porter,

I watched the video that is a massive reduction in RPM. Is their black smoke when it does that because it looks like the engine is seriously overloaded and about to stall?

So the fixed blade prop stops it right. Therefore there is nothing wrong with the engine itself.

Thus it must be something to do with the Bruntons Autoprop, which is a variable pitch prop.

The pitch varies automatically in order to maximise efficiency. "The Autoprop blades, unlike those of conventional propellers, maximise the thrust delivered whatever rpm the yachts engine is running at “

quote from Autoprop website.

So if the thrust  is maximised at all times then load on the engine must vary a bit. Just like say the big alternator kicking in when one runs a heavy load off it, say a toaster for example. So I would expect a slight variability in the rpm as the load on the engine varies but not like in your video.

Agreed there is something wrong with the prop. You could strip it down yourself, it is pretty easy, before returning for service.


Nick

Amelia (Amel 54 019) back at home for a bit.

On 30 Aug 2018, at 10:44, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Porter,

Wow, that is a pretty major "wander" in the video, so glad to see it was resolved by changing prop.  
Your numbers look ok, except for WOT 2200 seems awfully low. I think you do need to follow that up with Volvo, particularly with the fixed prop now in place.

I checked my WOT this morning in flat water/no wind and it was stable at 2920rpm.  

I also took a short video of the wandering I was referring to, its in the" ZF25 Transmission" folder in the files section.  It shows a variation from 1170 to 1210, difficult to hear the engine note on the video, but 40rpm variation is just enough to make the ears prick up!. Given yours and Mohammad's observations, i'll put it down to propeller effects..

I've also uploaded my Sea Trial results from a few weeks ago after we had the gearbox fitted.
It was a bit choppy and breezy, so the speeds are a bit lower than we get in flat water.

Danny, and others - I've solved my oil leak.  Not sure exactly what to attribute it to.
I found an extra 1/4 turn on one of the fwd end sump bolts, but I've also done my regular oil/filter change including replacing the Oring on the oil filter cap.  One of those things solved it - I suspect the filter cap may have been the culprit.   

Cheers
Dean
SY Stella
AMEL 54 #154







Which evaporator model from Frigoboat to order

Willem Kroes
 

Hi all proud Amel owners,


A month ago I renewed the Frigoboat compressor for one of the boxes in the saloon. The AV35F was installed. Shortly after this I noticed a failure of the evaporator. The mechanic saved my planned trip to the Baleares by installing a very small evaporator from his garage. But now I have to order a new evaporator. I use this box as a freezer. The box has a little smaller volume than 100 litres. 

According to the website of the German distributer of Frigoboat, North Marine, the flat plate evaporator 200F (I think this is the one Amel original installed) is for freezing a box of max. 80 litres. The 380F can be used according to North marine for a box of 100 litres max. and is also compatible with the AV35F compressor.


Are there Amel owners who installed the 380F flat plate i stead of the 200F?


But also any advice about his issue will be welcome.


Best regards,


Willem Kroes


SM#351 "Kavanga"





Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] D3-110I-C Wandering RPM

Porter McRoberts
 

Hi Danny. 
Thank you very much for your insightful thoughts they are really appreciated. 
Since I never really completely trust my hull speed indicator  as it seems to wander a bit I  rely on SOG: understanding currents and conditions greatly influence SOG I average runs in opposite directions that occur immediately after each other and I think this gets as close as I can to a real estimation of hull water speed.   
What do you think?  

Many thanks Porter



Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 5:34 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 



To porter. The differing sog  is often current. Your boat speed log is speed through the water. Sog is pver the ground.

Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 30 August 2018 at 16:26 "Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

 

Sea trial 8/29/18 2 min timed test



1000 rpm temp 78c and 0 kPa quiet

1500 rpm temp 79c and 20 kPa high pitched whir sound bit no vibration

2000 rpm temp 81c and 70 kPa quiet

2200 rpm WOT 84c and 110/120 kPa quiet


Zero rpm wandering for first hour, slight wandering after an hour. 


I guess it was the prop!?!


I’ll send it back to be rebuilt. 


I’ll also be interested to see what a longer motor is like. 


Could play increase in the c-drive with warm oil and cause the slight wandering?  Why after an hour did that present. 


Also. Other question sent to Volvo: what’s up with the 2200 wot???  Ended up going 8.6 kts sog one direction and 9.2 kts sog in the other. Minimal chop. 


Porter 

A54-152




Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 29, 2018, at 2:20 PM, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] < amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello Dean, and hive of cognoscenti.


Please have a look at this video if you’d be so kind:



I started noticing your description several months ago. Pre boost pressure sensor fault, pre long block failure. We hauled out in Martinique in April. Serviced c drive, autoprop etc. I noticed that 2 of the autoprop arms fell with gravity alone. The third needed coaxing from a finger. More grease and it was better but never equivalent to the other 2. Minimal vibration. Hard to know how much vibration is normal as only have had the boat 1.5 years. Never motored on another 54 or SM for that matter. 

So.... after finding sputtering oil from the dipstick confirming to Volvo the Long block was shot we had a new long block installed and engine back in the boat Friday with sea trial last Saturday. While out of the water I sanded and acid washed the prop. Still noted one arm stiffer than the other. But not worse that it had been. 

During the sea-trial we had  Lots of rpm variability such as dean described but even +/-50-100 rpm. But not close to what is seen in the video. Our WOT was held to 2360. CDM/Volvo with their vodia computers hooked to the engine blessed it and said it was good. Hands washed they said the variability had to come from the prop. (I had not disclosed my observations under the hull while out of the water). 

This Last Monday real world test: we set out southwest from Panama City to isla Contadora. RPM wandering was much higher- this is when Video was taken. Wasn’t the most relaxing of trips in addition to being late and arriving in the dark we had an explosion of late afternoon lightning storms with webs of red and blue current above us. 

So we’re at anchor south of Contadora, arrived safely and this am I dove and switched the autoprop to the fixed, spare prop. Thanks Bill Rouse and James Cromie!  

Sea-trial this afternoon. 

I’ll report findings. 

Thanks to everyone!!


Porter/Helen Grace and Lilly. 
Ibis
A54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 29, 2018, at 10:27 AM, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] < amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Gang,
I’ve been wondering for most of this summer about the wandering rpm in my D3-110-C motor. I’ve noticed that occasionally the rpm will wander around by 20-40rpm over a period of a second or so. It is obvious to the ear, as well as being shown in the instrument readout, and seems to be particularly prevalent when mooching around in the 1000-1500 rpm range. Haven’t noticed it so much at higher rpm.

I also don’t recall hearing it last year, but we were pretty overloaded with new stuff last year, it’s possible I just didn’t notice it.

Since I’ve now installed a new gearbox, I’ve kind of eliminated any issues on that front (ie pressure drops/shaft brake application)

This year I changed from the original fixed prop to an Autoprop, which is also a new piece of kit to me. Could this be related to the autoprop blades doing something erratic and momentarily loading up the motor?

Do others observe this behaviour? I guess with the trials and tribulations that Porter has gone through this year with his D3-110 we are all paying a bit more attention to this troublesome power plant.

Many thanks
Dean
SY Stella
Amel 54#154

 

 


 


 


 


Re: FW: [Amel Yacht Owners] Frigoboat AV35F (complete)

Willem Kroes
 

Hi Mark,

I was wondering why you bought the flat plate evaporator 200F from Frigoboat in stead of the 380F.

The info from the German distributer of Frigoboat  is telling that the 200F is for freezing a 80 litre box and the 380F can be used as a freezer for a 100 litre box. The volume of the boxes in the saloon are a little below 100 litre each.

Was the 200F evaporator also original installed by the Amel yard?

On my boat I renewed the compressor by the Frigoboat AV35F but then discovered that there is also a problem with the evaporator (blocked). I now use a very small evaporator as a temporary solution, but now in doubt which flat plate model to order, the 200F is longer than the 380F but the last named model is much higher, so the cooling surface is much bigger than of the 220F.

Please advise.

Best regards,

Willem Kroes

SM #351 "Kavanga"

  


Autoprop Puller

Duane Siegfri
 

I borrowed a tool from the boatyard to pull the prop and it worked great.  I'm not sure if this is the right size or not but it's only $35.20!  


https://www.grainger.com/product/WESTWARD-Flange-Puller-29FX49


It accomodates pulling items from shafts connected with three bolts like the Autoprop, and it came off without any trouble.  You'll have to supply your own bolts to replace those holding on the prop zinc (or the red nose cone) with suitable washers since the slots are 5/8" wide.  This is at least $200 less than the Autoprop puller.


Duane


Re: Yanmar Diesel Lift Pump

Duane Siegfri
 

Bill is correct, I was referring to the priming pump.  I was mistaken in calling it the "low pressure lift/priming pump".  

I'm not sure from my notes now if Mac Boring was referring to the priming pump or the low pressure lift pump.  I have to admit I thought the priming pump was the low pressure pump as well, until I removed it from the engine and realized it was only a priming pump.  Shows you my diesel talents are limitied to replacing parts...

Duane


Re: Expected RPM at WOT

Dean Gillies
 

Porter,
Our WOT with the original Amel FIXED prop was just under 3000rpm when we sea-trialled the boat with Olivier last August.

I agree with Bill’s logic, I think you need to lean on Volvo to investigate further. I know that’s easy to say, but when you are in ‘exotic places’ it’s not so easy to do!

With everything else in the drive train tested, it has to be down to a sensor/interface problem or a software issue.

Did your old sensors get RE-installed in the system with the long block change?

I don’t know how easy it would be to achieve, but can the EVC unit be swapped over for testing by Volvo?
That should eliminate the EVC itself.

Given that you have good WOT under no-load conditions, it can only be either physical resistance in the drive train or perceived resistance by the sensors/software.

Are you proposing to remove the prop and re-test the drive train sans-propeller?
I believe that would seem to eliminate the physical resistance question.

Good luck mate, keep us posted we’re thinking of you 🤔

Cheers
Dean


Re: Yanmar Diesel Lift Pump

rossirossix4
 

Hi Duane (and Bill),

Yes, I am thinking it is the manual priming pump and not really the low pressure pump.  When I saw the comment about Mac Boring recommending changing the low pressure on the Yanmar it caught my attention--thinking that it would cause fuel starvation or problems with the HP pump or leaking.  

I had a low pressure pump failure (it is separate) on my Santorin's Perkins M50 and leaked through a weep hole designed to ensure that diesel fuel did not enter the engine's crank case.

Don't know if the integrated Yanmar low pressure ever fails but back in the day my Mercedes 220 D had a manual priming pump.  One time the low pressure/feed pump failed but you could run the engine even at high rpm by hand pumping the priming pump.  No way to test this but manning the priming pump might get you into port!

Shout out---Duane, Pat, and Bill K, et al--I've had really good luck with Yanmar and Onan parts up at Bay Shore Marine at Bert Jabins Yacht Yard.  They are also good about shipping parts.  They market a really nice impeller puller pliars that has worked very well on the Yanmar and Onan.
Bob
KAIMI


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Onan Water Pump

 

Clean the inside pump walls well when changing the impeller...use sand paper.and make sure the inside wall is smooth. Also, change the impeller every 200-225 hours...you will not lose a blade unless you use Globe impellers if you follow the above.

It is much easier to remove the pump than to try to change the impeller with the pump attached.

Do not let a single drop of saltwater fall on anything. Use towels and a wet vacuum.

This works, I promise.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 5:59 PM 'S/V Garulfo' svgarulfo@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Ok,
So Onan’s spec C (and later) uses the 132-0459 pump (G702 in Sherwood’s taxonomy). It can be found for less than 300$. 

Based on the diagrams, the impeller for the newer pump is much bigger. I wonder if it bears the same risk of losing blades that could make their way to the heat exchanger. 
In other words, wouldn’t instaling a handy strainer like Perigee’s and CreamPuff’s be superfluous with such a pump? (It’s one of our projects)

Fair winds

Thomas & Soraya 
GARULFO 
A54-122
Curaçao 

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 at 17:49, Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Yes, Onan 132-0459 Raw Water Pump (Replaces 132-0358) and was the raw water pump on most of the Onans installed in SMs and 54s, including the 11kw Onan. The pump is made by Sherwood Pumps...their model is G702


I hope this helps you.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 3:50 PM 'S/V Garulfo' svgarulfo@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
[Attachment(s) from S/V Garulfo included below]

Hi Alex,

if you register on this cummins website
https://quickserve.cummins.com/ with the s/n of your generator, you can get pdf versions of all relevant documents to your model (parts / installation/ operators's manuals).
You can get the S/N, model and Spec (letter) from the plate at the front of your generator. (the plate also has common part numbers, but not the water pump)

Our generator is 11MDKBN / spec D, and the parts manual shows (p.80) 132-0358 Pump, [raw] water  for spec a-b, and 132-0459 for spec C onwards.
We have been told that 132-0459 replaces old ref 132-0358 , and also that they are interchangeable.  Still investigating...

Soraya
Garulfo A54-122
Curacao

On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 at 10:39, Alex Ramseyer alexramseyer@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Mark,
I found the G702 on Amazon and would like to order one as a spare.
However, I need to be sure that pump is the right one for my MDKAW model from 2005. Do all ONAN that we use on our AMELS have the same pump? Where can i  ask/research to be sure in case there are different Sherwood pumps for our ONANS available?
Thans, Alex
SY NO STRESS
AMEL54 #15

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