Date   

Measuring Volvo TMD-22 oil level

Ryan Meador
 

Hi all, silly question here... What is the correct way to take a reading of the oil level in my Volvo TMD-22: do I insert the dip stick fully, or do I just rest it on top of the tube?

Thanks,

Ryan and Kelly
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Helm Seat

eric freedman
 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Helm Seat

Danny Simms
 



On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 at 11:00, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi Alan, what are the overall dimensions. Mine is 480 mm x 480 mm Mine has an alloy hinge, I avoided plastic hinges for security reasons. In a big seaway there will be quite a load on it

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean pearl

On 01 September 2018 at 08:46 "divanz620@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

The seat cushion on our seat measures 420mm across, 440mm front to back.

I think you'll find that most boat seats are in that range or bigger.
They have to be that size otherwise you couldn't sit comfortably on them. 
We are very happy with our seat and have no problems getting past it.
Folded back against the nav table it is a very useful aid in getting wet weather gear on and off, not that we do that very often! 
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437

 


 


 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Helm Seat

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Alan, what are the overall dimensions. Mine is 480 mm x 480 mm Mine has an alloy hinge, I avoided plastic hinges for security reasons. In a big seaway there will be quite a load on it

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean pearl

On 01 September 2018 at 08:46 "divanz620@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

The seat cushion on our seat measures 420mm across, 440mm front to back.

I think you'll find that most boat seats are in that range or bigger.
They have to be that size otherwise you couldn't sit comfortably on them. 
We are very happy with our seat and have no problems getting past it.
Folded back against the nav table it is a very useful aid in getting wet weather gear on and off, not that we do that very often! 
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437

 


 


 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Onan raw water pump

Craig Briggs
 

Like Barnacle Buster, it's phosphoric acid based.  Like Coca-Cola! Phosphoric acid is cheap.
Cheers, Craig SN68


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Toe pulley (headsail)

Mike Ondra
 

Hello Ryan,

I too am looking for a pair of these pulleys. The note below is what I just received from Maud following my inquiry.

Will be interested in what you find relative to schedule and cost.

Thanks,

Mike Ondra

Aletes SM#240

Rock Hall, MD

 

Good afternoon,

Thank you for your message.

These pulleys are still available but not in stock anymore. The price for 1 pulley is 213.66 euros without taxes and without transport.

I do not have the delivery time for the moment but I know that they have been ordered from the manufacturer.

With my kindest regards,

 

Maud TOUILLET

Service clientèle/Customer service

sav@...

Phone : +33 (0) 546 55 00 75

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 8:46 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Toe pulley (headsail)

 

 

Hi James,

 

No news yet, our friend is having various printing issues. Will post updates when we have progress!

 

Kelly + Ryan

SM233 Iteration

Boston

 

 

On Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 22:29 James Cromie jamescromie@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Any luck with your traveller sheave design?  

 

I’m very interested to know!

 

James

Soteria 

SM 347

On Aug 10, 2018, at 11:20 AM, Kelly Ran naryllek@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

 

Salut,

 

We have the same problem with one of ours.

I modeled the pulley, and we are having a test unit printed out of 316 stainless. (See attached.) My guess is that it will take a couple of iterations to get this part completely right. Will let you know how it turns out.

 

Kelly + Ryan

SM233 Iteration 

Boston

 

 

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 10:58 AM, jlm@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

[Attachment(s) from jlm@... [amelyachtowners] included below]

 

Bonjour,

On my Super Maramu 2000 I have the two pulley cracked ! (they are maked "AMEL")

Amel have no delivery time for this spare part .......

It seams that I am not the only one with this problem ....

Did any one of you solved this without AMEL part ?

Merci

JL MERTZ

Cottonbay.fr

 

 

 

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Onan Water Pump [1 Attachment]

Alex Ramseyer <alexramseyer@...>
 

good inormation, I'll check, thanks Thomas!

On Thursday, August 30, 2018, 4:50:04 PM GMT-4, 'S/V Garulfo' svgarulfo@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:


 
[Attachment(s) from S/V Garulfo included below]

Hi Alex,

if you register on this cummins website
https://quickserve.cummins.com/ with the s/n of your generator, you can get pdf versions of all relevant documents to your model (parts / installation/ operators's manuals).
You can get the S/N, model and Spec (letter) from the plate at the front of your generator. (the plate also has common part numbers, but not the water pump)

Our generator is 11MDKBN / spec D, and the parts manual shows (p.80) 132-0358 Pump, [raw] water  for spec a-b, and 132-0459 for spec C onwards.
We have been told that 132-0459 replaces old ref 132-0358 , and also that they are interchangeable.  Still investigating...

Soraya
Garulfo A54-122
Curacao

On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 at 10:39, Alex Ramseyer alexramseyer@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Mark,
I found the G702 on Amazon and would like to order one as a spare.
However, I need to be sure that pump is the right one for my MDKAW model from 2005. Do all ONAN that we use on our AMELS have the same pump? Where can i  ask/research to be sure in case there are different Sherwood pumps for our ONANS available?
Thans, Alex
SY NO STRESS
AMEL54 #15


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Expected RPM at WOT

Porter McRoberts
 

Dean thank you


The turbo does spin up. More with load of course. I am able to measure pressure. 


1000 rpm temp 78c and 0 kPa quiet

1500 rpm temp 79c and 20 kPa high pitched whir sound bit no vibration

2000 rpm temp 81c and 70 kPa quiet

2200 rpm WOT 84c and 110/120 kPa quiet



Volvo has yet to respond. 


Porter. 

A54-152




Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 3:16 PM, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Porter,
No question remains in my mind that this is a problem for Volvo.

Re Nick’s observation, does the turbo spin up?
I wonder if the turbo is load controlled or just rpm controlled.
If it operates in concert with load being applied, maybe the fault is still associated with the boost sensor.

I’ll check mine in the morning for comparison.

Cheers
Dean


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Helm Seat

Alan Leslie
 

The seat cushion on our seat measures 420mm across, 440mm front to back.
I think you'll find that most boat seats are in that range or bigger.
They have to be that size otherwise you couldn't sit comfortably on them. 
We are very happy with our seat and have no problems getting past it.
Folded back against the nav table it is a very useful aid in getting wet weather gear on and off, not that we do that very often! 
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Water ingress

karkauai
 

Paul,
I assume it is salt-water?

Bill is right, likely from BT.

Your anchor chain locker drains through the grey water system.  A loose connection at the watertight bulkhead between the head and saloon could leak right there.

You are aware of the red handled shut off valves forward of that bulkhead and aft of the bulkhead between the chain locker and the forward cabin? 

Kent
S/V Kristy
SM243

On Aug 30, 2018, at 10:52 AM, Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Paul, 

Two things:
  1. If you look closely under the shower pan in the forward head, you will see places where water can go when the boat is heeling...it will get trapped there until your next rough passage.
  2. Water passing by the Thruster Tube seal will run downhill to the area outside the head. It's path will dry quickly.
Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 9:36 AM osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hello! we find water under the floor board in the passage from main cabin to the front cabin. i.e. outside the forward head. that after being out in larger seas or going up wind. I thought it was the Bow thruster that was leaking. But it is totally dry under the floorboard in the forward cabin, I have a few diapers place each side of the Bowthruster and they are also dry. is there any other place where water can get in under the floor board.

we always close the drain from the forward head so that water geting in the anchor chain well not getting in the the head when leaning to port.  We have a new speed transducer but that is totally dry at least when laying at anchor that is the only source I can t hink of besides the bow thruster.

Paul on SY Kerpa SM#259



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Onan raw water pump

karkauai
 

Hi Pat.  I use SewClean by the same folks who make Barnacle Buster.  10 years of treating every 6 mo this and no apparent build-up.
Kent
SM243
Kristy

On Aug 30, 2018, at 8:27 AM, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Eric, I cannot find Onan parts directly from Onan. I am trying to find the start /stop switch located in the galley. I am not sure I need a new switch ,but over half the time I try to stop the engine, I have to push the stop switch 20 -30 times. The engine stops when the switch located on the engine is used. I have not been able to find the switch from other suppliers . Also did you not post about a product that cleaned the toilet hoses very effectively . I have been trying to find the old post ,so we can buy some.

Thanks,
Pat
SM123


-----Original Message-----
From: eric kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Wed, Aug 29, 2018 11:00 pm
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Onan raw water pump

 
You can order parts directly from Onan. I order from the Bronx,NY warehouse.
Fair winds,
Eric 
SM 376 Kimberlite


On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 09:04 PM, osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:

 
Our Onan raw water pump looks as it running on overtime so we would like to order a spare pump.
Were is the best place to order when in USA. 
Paul on SY Kerpa SM#259 on Sassafras river Chesapeake bay


Re: Expected RPM at WOT

Dean Gillies
 

Hi Porter,
No question remains in my mind that this is a problem for Volvo.

Re Nick’s observation, does the turbo spin up?
I wonder if the turbo is load controlled or just rpm controlled.
If it operates in concert with load being applied, maybe the fault is still associated with the boost sensor.

I’ll check mine in the morning for comparison.

Cheers
Dean


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Helm Seat

Patrick McAneny
 

Danny, I would like to see it.I bought the ferry seat that Alan installed, its a great design , but too large for the area ,in my opinion and I am returning it.
Thanks,
Pat


-----Original Message-----
From: Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2018 9:09 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Helm Seat

 
Hi Pat,
I got a seat for the nav station with a fold down back. I did post photos of it and various people showed interes. I simply modified the plate provided with the seat and bolted it to the existing Amel stem. Fits well and very comfortable and not in the way. I will take a photo and post again soon.The seats are still available from our local chanlder
Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 31 August 2018 at 02:53 "Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Hi Pat
 
Alan, I bought the seat, it seem to be too big for the area,making it difficult to get past, especially  going aft . I noticed you have a wood base at the foot of the pedestal . Did you relocate it forward a bit. Its a really nice seat and a slick design , I am going to wait to hear from you before returning it.
Thanks,
Pat
SM123


-----Original Message-----
From: divanz620@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Sun, Aug 26, 2018 1:41 am
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Helm Seat

 
Thanks John,
i don't have any difficulty...I have the seat!
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437
 
 
 

 

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Expected RPM at WOT

Porter McRoberts
 

Amen!  I agree Bill. Thank you very much. 

I made a video for posterity if anyone interested 

https://youtu.be/y8921P2B1Yk

Porter

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 12:58 PM, Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I absolutely agree that you have eliminated every possible cause of resistance causing the low RPM. And, since Volvo specified the sizes of the AutoProp and the fixed Prop, Volvo cannot claim that the Prop is over-sized or over-pitched. There is one series of connected things left that are suspect for not only this issue, but previous issues: The Volvo Computer and connected wiring and sensors.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 12:52 PM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Today’s test results WOT comparison of peak RPM: out of gear and in gear but with prop removed. 


After warming up engine to working temperature. 
Out of gear WOT: 3200 RPM
In gear (but no prop) WOT: 3190 RPM 

Can I say with near certainty the problem must lie within the engine itself as the gear presents negligible resistance?  


Thank you all!!

Porter
A54-152

Excuse the errors..  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 11:30 AM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

We all feel for you Porter,


"There but for the grace of God go I”

In your video, at first view, it looked like overload, but was there black smoke at the same time? I doubt it as you would have said, therefore it is likely to be fuel starvation which brings us back to the whole box of magic namely the computerised fuel control and its associated sensors and wiring. So yes I agree with Bill and what is now becoming the general consensus. It is a sensor or computer problem!!!!

You will be at the mercy of the almighty VOLVO agent. You would have thought that the Volvo agent’s diagnostic computer that plugs in below the cockpit instruments (in the locker above the sink) would diagnose such a failing in moment. Alas I guess not. It might be worth checking that they are fully paid up to Volvo and have access to the Volvo system.

I have  mixed experience of Volvo agents. And am now beginning to wonder if your problem is not Turbo related. 

This is my story:

In Grenada I had a fault code on the EVC, I called the agent and he came on board in St Georges and said that the wifi was too slow to access Volvo. Then I sailed to Grenada Marine (St Davids Harbour) and went alongside the agents dock. He still could not access the diagnostic database. I was furious. I had sailed up especially. It transpired that he had not paid his fee and his access code had expired. He then said my fault was the 12v alternator over charging as it was at 14v, which was too high.  I told him to forget it as I knew he was talking rubbish. I refused to pay. (the voltage regulator on that 12v alternator specs it to that voltage, I checked)

I gave up, and sailed to Trinidad and the Volvo agent there diagnosed the problem to the Turbo. He plugged in and accessed the system, the fault code went away.  The boat was out of the water at the time and he said that the problem would be solved by servicing the turbo. So I removed it and had it serviced in the UK. They said it was perfect and did not need servicing.  When I launched and left to sail north I gunned the engine and the fault code came back as before. I continued to sail without the turbo kicking in, so achieved only 2200 RPM. Sound familiar??

I sailed to Martinique. There the Volvo agent plugged in the computer and said it was the boost sensor. He replaced it there and then as it was in stock. Problem solved. Touch wood. Have boost pressure under load get full RPM etc etc. Have fully tested it all. Now some 9 months later, I am happy we got there in the end.

So eventually on the third Volvo agent the problem was correctly diagnosed and fixed.

1.You will forgive me for being so cynical as to suggest you check that the agent has fully paid up for access to Volvo diagnostics. 

2. It will be interesting to hear your news re prop removal.

3. Did you get boost pressure kicking in at about 1400/1500 RPM when the prop was on? If not suspect the boost sensor.



Nick 

(Amelia) missing her already.




On 31 Aug 2018, at 16:06, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

So rational. Thank you Bill

I am gearing up to get under the boat, take off the prop, while reading kids book reports!  
My engine report to follow this afternoon!

Porter
54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 9:51 AM, Bill Rouse brouse@...[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

Some random thoughts...read the last paragraph/suggestion.

I believe any alignment problem will present itself with considerable vibration.

I think you should press Volvo, but I guess you could disconnect the Vetus coupling and see what RPM you can achieve with the transmission in gear. I don't know what the RPM should be in this case, but probably very close to the RPM achieved in neutral. 

I believe an alternator could be a source of too much load, however, if you achieve high RPM in neutral, the alternator(s) can be eliminated.

We must remember that the Volvo computer is designed to prevent sending more fuel to the injectors than the engine is capable of burning. This minimizes pollution, which was the primary goal of the D3. The best example of pollution caused by sending more diesel to diesel cylinders is exhibited by large trucks accelerating with plumes of black smoke (unburned diesel).

What about this scenario:
Remembering that Volvo specified the prop, what about an RPM test with no prop? I believe if you achieve high RPM, you have eliminated all connected sources of friction and proven that the only source of your problem is the Volvo engine and probably, wiring, sensors, or computer.

I hope this helps.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 8:27 AM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill 

As always I really appreciate your thoughts on this... I think it is the computer or sensors too. Also we were getting 2600 rpm before that long block exchange (with poor compression). 
So today I’ll try and wiggle the fixed prop off and run the naked spline. 

And I’ll take you up on your offer of a letter to Volvo. 

Thanks again Guru

Porter. A54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 4:36 PM, Bill Rouse brouse@...[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

If you can easily spin the prop in neutral with the shaft brake OFF, the C-drive isn't adding friction.

I think that you have two remaining possibilities:
  1. The brand new transmission is faulty, when it was not faulty before the long block change (I think very, very unlikely)
  2. Volvo Computer is not allowing higher RPMs for some unknown reason.
With a new transmission, a changed prop (which Volvo spec'd in the 1st place), and the c-drive tested, I have to believe that the problem is with the Volvo Computer. There is one more reason I point to the Volvo Computer: Of all of the possibilities, it is the most likely because of our combined experience with Volvo, the D3 and its computer.

I will happily write Volvo a more detailed explanation when you get to that point..

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:05 PM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups..com> wrote:
 

Nick. Yes. Thank you. 


Re WOT out of gear: 3100rpm

The transmission is fairly new:  replaced in he spring. 


Re friction within the cdrive. 

With engine idling in neutral, brake open I swim under the boat and can easily spin the prop. 

How can I better evaluate resistance in the system?: motor—New ZF tranny—vetus(friction??)— cdrive— prop. 

I think the next step is to take the fixed prop off. 
I need a gear puller to get it off I think (which I don’t have and need to get (any recommendations?).... Unless anyone has another suggestion? Tying the autoprop puller to the fixed prop using low stretch amsteel?  

Again all very good suggestions. 

Let’s say it is the cdrive. What then??????

Thank you all!!

Porter 

Amel 54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 12:47 PM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Sorry Porter,


Just going over the email again.

You have max RPM of 2200 at WOT with the new fixed prop, right? If so that can not be correct. It should be around 2850.  I doubt Amel would supply a spare prop that is not correct for the engine, at least not to that degree. To be so far from the desired RPM at WOT may cause problems with your new engine. 

What RPM can you achieve out of gear? 

What about the C drive? Have you checked that is working without friction? 


On my 54 with 2006 D3 110 and the Autoprop I get 2850 at WOT, with a clean prop and hull. 

Nick



On 30 Aug 2018, at 15:46, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Thank you everyone for your thoughts re our engine woes they are quite appreciated. 


May I ask thoughts re expected rpm during WOT with the supplied fixed prop on the Amel 54?


Has anyone with the fixed prop determined an observed RPM with WOT?  Volvo is telling me that they think 2200 is due to too large a prop. Now I know the H6 is a slight over propping, reducing the expected 3100-3200 Volvo D3-110 to your observed 2900ish range. 

But 2200 (our WOT RPM with the fixed prop in calm seas) is much lower than 2900, and I have a hard time thinking such a great drop is due to the lack of prop arm adjustment for appropriate bite as seen with the autoprop. 

Any data would be very appreciated. 

Many thanks

Porter Helen Grace and Lilly
S/V Ibis A54-152
Isla Contadora, Panama

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Porter,

I watched the video that is a massive reduction in RPM.. Is their black smoke when it does that because it looks like the engine is seriously overloaded and about to stall?

So the fixed blade prop stops it right. Therefore there is nothing wrong with the engine itself.

Thus it must be something to do with the Bruntons Autoprop, which is a variable pitch prop.

The pitch varies automatically in order to maximise efficiency. "The Autoprop blades, unlike those of conventional propellers, maximise the thrust delivered whatever rpm the yachts engine is running at “

quote from Autoprop website.

So if the thrust  is maximised at all times then load on the engine must vary a bit. Just like say the big alternator kicking in when one runs a heavy load off it, say a toaster for example. So I would expect a slight variability in the rpm as the load on the engine varies but not like in your video.

Agreed there is something wrong with the prop. You could strip it down yourself, it is pretty easy, before returning for service.


Nick

Amelia (Amel 54 019) back at home for a bit.

On 30 Aug 2018, at 10:44, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Porter,

Wow, that is a pretty major "wander" in the video, so glad to see it was resolved by changing prop.  
Your numbers look ok, except for WOT 2200 seems awfully low. I think you do need to follow that up with Volvo, particularly with the fixed prop now in place.

I checked my WOT this morning in flat water/no wind and it was stable at 2920rpm.  

I also took a short video of the wandering I was referring to, its in the" ZF25 Transmission" folder in the files section.  It shows a variation from 1170 to 1210, difficult to hear the engine note on the video, but 40rpm variation is just enough to make the ears prick up!. Given yours and Mohammad's observations, i'll put it down to propeller effects..

I've also uploaded my Sea Trial results from a few weeks ago after we had the gearbox fitted.
It was a bit choppy and breezy, so the speeds are a bit lower than we get in flat water.

Danny, and others - I've solved my oil leak.  Not sure exactly what to attribute it to.
I found an extra 1/4 turn on one of the fwd end sump bolts, but I've also done my regular oil/filter change including replacing the Oring on the oil filter cap.  One of those things solved it - I suspect the filter cap may have been the culprit.   

Cheers
Dean
SY Stella
AMEL 54 #154














Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Expected RPM at WOT

 

I absolutely agree that you have eliminated every possible cause of resistance causing the low RPM. And, since Volvo specified the sizes of the AutoProp and the fixed Prop, Volvo cannot claim that the Prop is over-sized or over-pitched. There is one series of connected things left that are suspect for not only this issue, but previous issues: The Volvo Computer and connected wiring and sensors.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 12:52 PM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Today’s test results WOT comparison of peak RPM: out of gear and in gear but with prop removed. 


After warming up engine to working temperature. 
Out of gear WOT: 3200 RPM
In gear (but no prop) WOT: 3190 RPM 

Can I say with near certainty the problem must lie within the engine itself as the gear presents negligible resistance?  


Thank you all!!

Porter
A54-152

Excuse the errors..  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 11:30 AM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

We all feel for you Porter,


"There but for the grace of God go I”

In your video, at first view, it looked like overload, but was there black smoke at the same time? I doubt it as you would have said, therefore it is likely to be fuel starvation which brings us back to the whole box of magic namely the computerised fuel control and its associated sensors and wiring. So yes I agree with Bill and what is now becoming the general consensus. It is a sensor or computer problem!!!!

You will be at the mercy of the almighty VOLVO agent. You would have thought that the Volvo agent’s diagnostic computer that plugs in below the cockpit instruments (in the locker above the sink) would diagnose such a failing in moment. Alas I guess not. It might be worth checking that they are fully paid up to Volvo and have access to the Volvo system.

I have  mixed experience of Volvo agents. And am now beginning to wonder if your problem is not Turbo related. 

This is my story:

In Grenada I had a fault code on the EVC, I called the agent and he came on board in St Georges and said that the wifi was too slow to access Volvo. Then I sailed to Grenada Marine (St Davids Harbour) and went alongside the agents dock. He still could not access the diagnostic database. I was furious. I had sailed up especially. It transpired that he had not paid his fee and his access code had expired. He then said my fault was the 12v alternator over charging as it was at 14v, which was too high.  I told him to forget it as I knew he was talking rubbish. I refused to pay. (the voltage regulator on that 12v alternator specs it to that voltage, I checked)

I gave up, and sailed to Trinidad and the Volvo agent there diagnosed the problem to the Turbo. He plugged in and accessed the system, the fault code went away.  The boat was out of the water at the time and he said that the problem would be solved by servicing the turbo. So I removed it and had it serviced in the UK. They said it was perfect and did not need servicing.  When I launched and left to sail north I gunned the engine and the fault code came back as before. I continued to sail without the turbo kicking in, so achieved only 2200 RPM. Sound familiar??

I sailed to Martinique. There the Volvo agent plugged in the computer and said it was the boost sensor. He replaced it there and then as it was in stock. Problem solved. Touch wood. Have boost pressure under load get full RPM etc etc. Have fully tested it all. Now some 9 months later, I am happy we got there in the end.

So eventually on the third Volvo agent the problem was correctly diagnosed and fixed.

1.You will forgive me for being so cynical as to suggest you check that the agent has fully paid up for access to Volvo diagnostics. 

2. It will be interesting to hear your news re prop removal.

3. Did you get boost pressure kicking in at about 1400/1500 RPM when the prop was on? If not suspect the boost sensor.



Nick 

(Amelia) missing her already.




On 31 Aug 2018, at 16:06, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

So rational. Thank you Bill

I am gearing up to get under the boat, take off the prop, while reading kids book reports!  
My engine report to follow this afternoon!

Porter
54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 9:51 AM, Bill Rouse brouse@...[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

Some random thoughts...read the last paragraph/suggestion.

I believe any alignment problem will present itself with considerable vibration.

I think you should press Volvo, but I guess you could disconnect the Vetus coupling and see what RPM you can achieve with the transmission in gear. I don't know what the RPM should be in this case, but probably very close to the RPM achieved in neutral. 

I believe an alternator could be a source of too much load, however, if you achieve high RPM in neutral, the alternator(s) can be eliminated.

We must remember that the Volvo computer is designed to prevent sending more fuel to the injectors than the engine is capable of burning. This minimizes pollution, which was the primary goal of the D3. The best example of pollution caused by sending more diesel to diesel cylinders is exhibited by large trucks accelerating with plumes of black smoke (unburned diesel).

What about this scenario:
Remembering that Volvo specified the prop, what about an RPM test with no prop? I believe if you achieve high RPM, you have eliminated all connected sources of friction and proven that the only source of your problem is the Volvo engine and probably, wiring, sensors, or computer.

I hope this helps.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 8:27 AM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill 

As always I really appreciate your thoughts on this... I think it is the computer or sensors too. Also we were getting 2600 rpm before that long block exchange (with poor compression). 
So today I’ll try and wiggle the fixed prop off and run the naked spline. 

And I’ll take you up on your offer of a letter to Volvo. 

Thanks again Guru

Porter. A54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 4:36 PM, Bill Rouse brouse@...[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

If you can easily spin the prop in neutral with the shaft brake OFF, the C-drive isn't adding friction.

I think that you have two remaining possibilities:
  1. The brand new transmission is faulty, when it was not faulty before the long block change (I think very, very unlikely)
  2. Volvo Computer is not allowing higher RPMs for some unknown reason.
With a new transmission, a changed prop (which Volvo spec'd in the 1st place), and the c-drive tested, I have to believe that the problem is with the Volvo Computer. There is one more reason I point to the Volvo Computer: Of all of the possibilities, it is the most likely because of our combined experience with Volvo, the D3 and its computer.

I will happily write Volvo a more detailed explanation when you get to that point..

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:05 PM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups..com> wrote:
 

Nick. Yes. Thank you. 


Re WOT out of gear: 3100rpm

The transmission is fairly new:  replaced in he spring. 


Re friction within the cdrive. 

With engine idling in neutral, brake open I swim under the boat and can easily spin the prop. 

How can I better evaluate resistance in the system?: motor—New ZF tranny—vetus(friction??)— cdrive— prop. 

I think the next step is to take the fixed prop off. 
I need a gear puller to get it off I think (which I don’t have and need to get (any recommendations?).... Unless anyone has another suggestion? Tying the autoprop puller to the fixed prop using low stretch amsteel?  

Again all very good suggestions. 

Let’s say it is the cdrive. What then??????

Thank you all!!

Porter 

Amel 54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 12:47 PM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Sorry Porter,


Just going over the email again.

You have max RPM of 2200 at WOT with the new fixed prop, right? If so that can not be correct. It should be around 2850.  I doubt Amel would supply a spare prop that is not correct for the engine, at least not to that degree. To be so far from the desired RPM at WOT may cause problems with your new engine. 

What RPM can you achieve out of gear? 

What about the C drive? Have you checked that is working without friction? 


On my 54 with 2006 D3 110 and the Autoprop I get 2850 at WOT, with a clean prop and hull. 

Nick



On 30 Aug 2018, at 15:46, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Thank you everyone for your thoughts re our engine woes they are quite appreciated. 


May I ask thoughts re expected rpm during WOT with the supplied fixed prop on the Amel 54?


Has anyone with the fixed prop determined an observed RPM with WOT?  Volvo is telling me that they think 2200 is due to too large a prop. Now I know the H6 is a slight over propping, reducing the expected 3100-3200 Volvo D3-110 to your observed 2900ish range. 

But 2200 (our WOT RPM with the fixed prop in calm seas) is much lower than 2900, and I have a hard time thinking such a great drop is due to the lack of prop arm adjustment for appropriate bite as seen with the autoprop. 

Any data would be very appreciated. 

Many thanks

Porter Helen Grace and Lilly
S/V Ibis A54-152
Isla Contadora, Panama

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Porter,

I watched the video that is a massive reduction in RPM.. Is their black smoke when it does that because it looks like the engine is seriously overloaded and about to stall?

So the fixed blade prop stops it right. Therefore there is nothing wrong with the engine itself.

Thus it must be something to do with the Bruntons Autoprop, which is a variable pitch prop.

The pitch varies automatically in order to maximise efficiency. "The Autoprop blades, unlike those of conventional propellers, maximise the thrust delivered whatever rpm the yachts engine is running at “

quote from Autoprop website.

So if the thrust  is maximised at all times then load on the engine must vary a bit. Just like say the big alternator kicking in when one runs a heavy load off it, say a toaster for example. So I would expect a slight variability in the rpm as the load on the engine varies but not like in your video.

Agreed there is something wrong with the prop. You could strip it down yourself, it is pretty easy, before returning for service.


Nick

Amelia (Amel 54 019) back at home for a bit.

On 30 Aug 2018, at 10:44, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Porter,

Wow, that is a pretty major "wander" in the video, so glad to see it was resolved by changing prop.  
Your numbers look ok, except for WOT 2200 seems awfully low. I think you do need to follow that up with Volvo, particularly with the fixed prop now in place.

I checked my WOT this morning in flat water/no wind and it was stable at 2920rpm.  

I also took a short video of the wandering I was referring to, its in the" ZF25 Transmission" folder in the files section.  It shows a variation from 1170 to 1210, difficult to hear the engine note on the video, but 40rpm variation is just enough to make the ears prick up!. Given yours and Mohammad's observations, i'll put it down to propeller effects..

I've also uploaded my Sea Trial results from a few weeks ago after we had the gearbox fitted.
It was a bit choppy and breezy, so the speeds are a bit lower than we get in flat water.

Danny, and others - I've solved my oil leak.  Not sure exactly what to attribute it to.
I found an extra 1/4 turn on one of the fwd end sump bolts, but I've also done my regular oil/filter change including replacing the Oring on the oil filter cap.  One of those things solved it - I suspect the filter cap may have been the culprit.   

Cheers
Dean
SY Stella
AMEL 54 #154














Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Autoprop Puller

 

Here is the one made by AutoProp:

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 8:23 AM sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

I borrowed a tool from the boatyard to pull the prop and it worked great.  I'm not sure if this is the right size or not but it's only $35.20!  


https://www.grainger.com/product/WESTWARD-Flange-Puller-29FX49


It accomodates pulling items from shafts connected with three bolts like the Autoprop, and it came off without any trouble.  You'll have to supply your own bolts to replace those holding on the prop zinc (or the red nose cone) with suitable washers since the slots are 5/8" wide.  This is at least $200 less than the Autoprop puller.


Duane


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Expected RPM at WOT

Porter McRoberts
 

Today’s test results WOT comparison of peak RPM: out of gear and in gear but with prop removed. 

After warming up engine to working temperature. 
Out of gear WOT: 3200 RPM
In gear (but no prop) WOT: 3190 RPM 

Can I say with near certainty the problem must lie within the engine itself as the gear presents negligible resistance?  


Thank you all!!

Porter
A54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 11:30 AM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

We all feel for you Porter,


"There but for the grace of God go I”

In your video, at first view, it looked like overload, but was there black smoke at the same time? I doubt it as you would have said, therefore it is likely to be fuel starvation which brings us back to the whole box of magic namely the computerised fuel control and its associated sensors and wiring. So yes I agree with Bill and what is now becoming the general consensus. It is a sensor or computer problem!!!!

You will be at the mercy of the almighty VOLVO agent. You would have thought that the Volvo agent’s diagnostic computer that plugs in below the cockpit instruments (in the locker above the sink) would diagnose such a failing in moment. Alas I guess not. It might be worth checking that they are fully paid up to Volvo and have access to the Volvo system.

I have  mixed experience of Volvo agents. And am now beginning to wonder if your problem is not Turbo related. 

This is my story:

In Grenada I had a fault code on the EVC, I called the agent and he came on board in St Georges and said that the wifi was too slow to access Volvo. Then I sailed to Grenada Marine (St Davids Harbour) and went alongside the agents dock. He still could not access the diagnostic database. I was furious. I had sailed up especially. It transpired that he had not paid his fee and his access code had expired. He then said my fault was the 12v alternator over charging as it was at 14v, which was too high.  I told him to forget it as I knew he was talking rubbish. I refused to pay. (the voltage regulator on that 12v alternator specs it to that voltage, I checked)

I gave up, and sailed to Trinidad and the Volvo agent there diagnosed the problem to the Turbo. He plugged in and accessed the system, the fault code went away.  The boat was out of the water at the time and he said that the problem would be solved by servicing the turbo. So I removed it and had it serviced in the UK. They said it was perfect and did not need servicing.  When I launched and left to sail north I gunned the engine and the fault code came back as before. I continued to sail without the turbo kicking in, so achieved only 2200 RPM. Sound familiar??

I sailed to Martinique. There the Volvo agent plugged in the computer and said it was the boost sensor. He replaced it there and then as it was in stock. Problem solved. Touch wood. Have boost pressure under load get full RPM etc etc. Have fully tested it all. Now some 9 months later, I am happy we got there in the end.

So eventually on the third Volvo agent the problem was correctly diagnosed and fixed.

1.You will forgive me for being so cynical as to suggest you check that the agent has fully paid up for access to Volvo diagnostics. 

2. It will be interesting to hear your news re prop removal.

3. Did you get boost pressure kicking in at about 1400/1500 RPM when the prop was on? If not suspect the boost sensor.



Nick 

(Amelia) missing her already.




On 31 Aug 2018, at 16:06, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

So rational. Thank you Bill

I am gearing up to get under the boat, take off the prop, while reading kids book reports!  
My engine report to follow this afternoon!

Porter
54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 9:51 AM, Bill Rouse brouse@...[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

Some random thoughts...read the last paragraph/suggestion.

I believe any alignment problem will present itself with considerable vibration.

I think you should press Volvo, but I guess you could disconnect the Vetus coupling and see what RPM you can achieve with the transmission in gear. I don't know what the RPM should be in this case, but probably very close to the RPM achieved in neutral. 

I believe an alternator could be a source of too much load, however, if you achieve high RPM in neutral, the alternator(s) can be eliminated.

We must remember that the Volvo computer is designed to prevent sending more fuel to the injectors than the engine is capable of burning. This minimizes pollution, which was the primary goal of the D3. The best example of pollution caused by sending more diesel to diesel cylinders is exhibited by large trucks accelerating with plumes of black smoke (unburned diesel).

What about this scenario:
Remembering that Volvo specified the prop, what about an RPM test with no prop? I believe if you achieve high RPM, you have eliminated all connected sources of friction and proven that the only source of your problem is the Volvo engine and probably, wiring, sensors, or computer.

I hope this helps.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 8:27 AM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill 

As always I really appreciate your thoughts on this... I think it is the computer or sensors too. Also we were getting 2600 rpm before that long block exchange (with poor compression). 
So today I’ll try and wiggle the fixed prop off and run the naked spline. 

And I’ll take you up on your offer of a letter to Volvo. 

Thanks again Guru

Porter. A54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 4:36 PM, Bill Rouse brouse@...[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

If you can easily spin the prop in neutral with the shaft brake OFF, the C-drive isn't adding friction.

I think that you have two remaining possibilities:
  1. The brand new transmission is faulty, when it was not faulty before the long block change (I think very, very unlikely)
  2. Volvo Computer is not allowing higher RPMs for some unknown reason.
With a new transmission, a changed prop (which Volvo spec'd in the 1st place), and the c-drive tested, I have to believe that the problem is with the Volvo Computer. There is one more reason I point to the Volvo Computer: Of all of the possibilities, it is the most likely because of our combined experience with Volvo, the D3 and its computer.

I will happily write Volvo a more detailed explanation when you get to that point..

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:05 PM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups..com> wrote:
 

Nick. Yes. Thank you. 


Re WOT out of gear: 3100rpm

The transmission is fairly new:  replaced in he spring. 


Re friction within the cdrive. 

With engine idling in neutral, brake open I swim under the boat and can easily spin the prop. 

How can I better evaluate resistance in the system?: motor—New ZF tranny—vetus(friction??)— cdrive— prop. 

I think the next step is to take the fixed prop off. 
I need a gear puller to get it off I think (which I don’t have and need to get (any recommendations?)... Unless anyone has another suggestion? Tying the autoprop puller to the fixed prop using low stretch amsteel?  

Again all very good suggestions. 

Let’s say it is the cdrive. What then??????

Thank you all!!

Porter 

Amel 54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 12:47 PM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Sorry Porter,


Just going over the email again.

You have max RPM of 2200 at WOT with the new fixed prop, right? If so that can not be correct. It should be around 2850.  I doubt Amel would supply a spare prop that is not correct for the engine, at least not to that degree. To be so far from the desired RPM at WOT may cause problems with your new engine. 

What RPM can you achieve out of gear? 

What about the C drive? Have you checked that is working without friction? 


On my 54 with 2006 D3 110 and the Autoprop I get 2850 at WOT, with a clean prop and hull. 

Nick



On 30 Aug 2018, at 15:46, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Thank you everyone for your thoughts re our engine woes they are quite appreciated. 


May I ask thoughts re expected rpm during WOT with the supplied fixed prop on the Amel 54?


Has anyone with the fixed prop determined an observed RPM with WOT?  Volvo is telling me that they think 2200 is due to too large a prop. Now I know the H6 is a slight over propping, reducing the expected 3100-3200 Volvo D3-110 to your observed 2900ish range. 

But 2200 (our WOT RPM with the fixed prop in calm seas) is much lower than 2900, and I have a hard time thinking such a great drop is due to the lack of prop arm adjustment for appropriate bite as seen with the autoprop. 

Any data would be very appreciated. 

Many thanks

Porter Helen Grace and Lilly
S/V Ibis A54-152
Isla Contadora, Panama

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Porter,

I watched the video that is a massive reduction in RPM.. Is their black smoke when it does that because it looks like the engine is seriously overloaded and about to stall?

So the fixed blade prop stops it right. Therefore there is nothing wrong with the engine itself.

Thus it must be something to do with the Bruntons Autoprop, which is a variable pitch prop.

The pitch varies automatically in order to maximise efficiency. "The Autoprop blades, unlike those of conventional propellers, maximise the thrust delivered whatever rpm the yachts engine is running at “

quote from Autoprop website.

So if the thrust  is maximised at all times then load on the engine must vary a bit. Just like say the big alternator kicking in when one runs a heavy load off it, say a toaster for example. So I would expect a slight variability in the rpm as the load on the engine varies but not like in your video.

Agreed there is something wrong with the prop. You could strip it down yourself, it is pretty easy, before returning for service.


Nick

Amelia (Amel 54 019) back at home for a bit.

On 30 Aug 2018, at 10:44, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Porter,

Wow, that is a pretty major "wander" in the video, so glad to see it was resolved by changing prop.  
Your numbers look ok, except for WOT 2200 seems awfully low. I think you do need to follow that up with Volvo, particularly with the fixed prop now in place.

I checked my WOT this morning in flat water/no wind and it was stable at 2920rpm.  

I also took a short video of the wandering I was referring to, its in the" ZF25 Transmission" folder in the files section.  It shows a variation from 1170 to 1210, difficult to hear the engine note on the video, but 40rpm variation is just enough to make the ears prick up!. Given yours and Mohammad's observations, i'll put it down to propeller effects..

I've also uploaded my Sea Trial results from a few weeks ago after we had the gearbox fitted.
It was a bit choppy and breezy, so the speeds are a bit lower than we get in flat water.

Danny, and others - I've solved my oil leak.  Not sure exactly what to attribute it to.
I found an extra 1/4 turn on one of the fwd end sump bolts, but I've also done my regular oil/filter change including replacing the Oring on the oil filter cap.  One of those things solved it - I suspect the filter cap may have been the culprit.   

Cheers
Dean
SY Stella
AMEL 54 #154














Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Expected RPM at WOT

ngtnewington Newington
 

We all feel for you Porter,

"There but for the grace of God go I”

In your video, at first view, it looked like overload, but was there black smoke at the same time? I doubt it as you would have said, therefore it is likely to be fuel starvation which brings us back to the whole box of magic namely the computerised fuel control and its associated sensors and wiring. So yes I agree with Bill and what is now becoming the general consensus. It is a sensor or computer problem!!!!

You will be at the mercy of the almighty VOLVO agent. You would have thought that the Volvo agent’s diagnostic computer that plugs in below the cockpit instruments (in the locker above the sink) would diagnose such a failing in moment. Alas I guess not. It might be worth checking that they are fully paid up to Volvo and have access to the Volvo system.

I have mixed experience of Volvo agents. And am now beginning to wonder if your problem is not Turbo related.

This is my story:

In Grenada I had a fault code on the EVC, I called the agent and he came on board in St Georges and said that the wifi was too slow to access Volvo. Then I sailed to Grenada Marine (St Davids Harbour) and went alongside the agents dock. He still could not access the diagnostic database. I was furious. I had sailed up especially. It transpired that he had not paid his fee and his access code had expired. He then said my fault was the 12v alternator over charging as it was at 14v, which was too high. I told him to forget it as I knew he was talking rubbish. I refused to pay. (the voltage regulator on that 12v alternator specs it to that voltage, I checked)

I gave up, and sailed to Trinidad and the Volvo agent there diagnosed the problem to the Turbo. He plugged in and accessed the system, the fault code went away. The boat was out of the water at the time and he said that the problem would be solved by servicing the turbo. So I removed it and had it serviced in the UK. They said it was perfect and did not need servicing. When I launched and left to sail north I gunned the engine and the fault code came back as before. I continued to sail without the turbo kicking in, so achieved only 2200 RPM. Sound familiar??

I sailed to Martinique. There the Volvo agent plugged in the computer and said it was the boost sensor. He replaced it there and then as it was in stock. Problem solved. Touch wood. Have boost pressure under load get full RPM etc etc. Have fully tested it all. Now some 9 months later, I am happy we got there in the end.

So eventually on the third Volvo agent the problem was correctly diagnosed and fixed.

1.You will forgive me for being so cynical as to suggest you check that the agent has fully paid up for access to Volvo diagnostics.

2. It will be interesting to hear your news re prop removal.

3. Did you get boost pressure kicking in at about 1400/1500 RPM when the prop was on? If not suspect the boost sensor.



Nick

(Amelia) missing her already.

On 31 Aug 2018, at 16:06, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@yahoo.com [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

So rational. Thank you Bill

I am gearing up to get under the boat, take off the prop, while reading kids book reports!
My engine report to follow this afternoon!

Porter
54-152

Excuse the errors.
Sent from my IPhone
Www.fouribis.com <http://www.fouribis..com/>

On Aug 31, 2018, at 9:51 AM, Bill Rouse brouse@gmail.com <mailto:brouse@gmail.com>[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:



Porter,

Some random thoughts...read the last paragraph/suggestion.

I believe any alignment problem will present itself with considerable vibration.

I think you should press Volvo, but I guess you could disconnect the Vetus coupling and see what RPM you can achieve with the transmission in gear. I don't know what the RPM should be in this case, but probably very close to the RPM achieved in neutral.

I believe an alternator could be a source of too much load, however, if you achieve high RPM in neutral, the alternator(s) can be eliminated.

We must remember that the Volvo computer is designed to prevent sending more fuel to the injectors than the engine is capable of burning. This minimizes pollution, which was the primary goal of the D3. The best example of pollution caused by sending more diesel to diesel cylinders is exhibited by large trucks accelerating with plumes of black smoke (unburned diesel).

What about this scenario:
Remembering that Volvo specified the prop, what about an RPM test with no prop? I believe if you achieve high RPM, you have eliminated all connected sources of friction and proven that the only source of your problem is the Volvo engine and probably, wiring, sensors, or computer.

I hope this helps.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School <http://www.amelschool.com/> http://www.amelschool.com <http://www.amelschool..com/>
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970 <>
My Calendar <https://theamelschool.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html>

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 8:27 AM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@yahoo.com <mailto:portermcroberts@yahoo.com> [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

Bill

As always I really appreciate your thoughts on this... I think it is the computer or sensors too. Also we were getting 2600 rpm before that long block exchange (with poor compression).
So today I’ll try and wiggle the fixed prop off and run the naked spline.

And I’ll take you up on your offer of a letter to Volvo.

Thanks again Guru

Porter. A54-152

Excuse the errors.
Sent from my IPhone
Www.fouribis.com <http://www.fouribis.com/>

On Aug 30, 2018, at 4:36 PM, Bill Rouse brouse@gmail.com <mailto:brouse@gmail.com>[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups..com>> wrote:



Porter,

If you can easily spin the prop in neutral with the shaft brake OFF, the C-drive isn't adding friction.

I think that you have two remaining possibilities:
The brand new transmission is faulty, when it was not faulty before the long block change (I think very, very unlikely)
Volvo Computer is not allowing higher RPMs for some unknown reason.
With a new transmission, a changed prop (which Volvo spec'd in the 1st place), and the c-drive tested, I have to believe that the problem is with the Volvo Computer. There is one more reason I point to the Volvo Computer: Of all of the possibilities, it is the most likely because of our combined experience with Volvo, the D3 and its computer.

I will happily write Volvo a more detailed explanation when you get to that point..

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School <http://www.amelschool....com/> http://www.amelschool.com <http://www.amelschool..com/>
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970 <>
My Calendar <https://theamelschool.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html>

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:05 PM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@yahoo.com <mailto:portermcroberts@yahoo.com> [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups..com <mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

Nick. Yes. Thank you.


Re WOT out of gear: 3100rpm

The transmission is fairly new: replaced in he spring.


Re friction within the cdrive.

With engine idling in neutral, brake open I swim under the boat and can easily spin the prop.

How can I better evaluate resistance in the system?: motor—New ZF tranny—vetus(friction??)— cdrive— prop.

I think the next step is to take the fixed prop off.
I need a gear puller to get it off I think (which I don’t have and need to get (any recommendations?).. Unless anyone has another suggestion? Tying the autoprop puller to the fixed prop using low stretch amsteel?

Again all very good suggestions.

Let’s say it is the cdrive. What then??????

Thank you all!!

Porter

Amel 54-152

Excuse the errors.
Sent from my IPhone
Www.fouribis.com <http://www.fouribis.com/>

On Aug 30, 2018, at 12:47 PM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@aol.com <mailto:ngtnewington@aol.com> [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:


Sorry Porter,


Just going over the email again.

You have max RPM of 2200 at WOT with the new fixed prop, right? If so that can not be correct. It should be around 2850. I doubt Amel would supply a spare prop that is not correct for the engine, at least not to that degree. To be so far from the desired RPM at WOT may cause problems with your new engine.

What RPM can you achieve out of gear?

What about the C drive? Have you checked that is working without friction?


On my 54 with 2006 D3 110 and the Autoprop I get 2850 at WOT, with a clean prop and hull.

Nick



On 30 Aug 2018, at 15:46, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@yahoo.com <mailto:portermcroberts@yahoo.com> [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

Thank you everyone for your thoughts re our engine woes they are quite appreciated.


May I ask thoughts re expected rpm during WOT with the supplied fixed prop on the Amel 54?


Has anyone with the fixed prop determined an observed RPM with WOT? Volvo is telling me that they think 2200 is due to too large a prop. Now I know the H6 is a slight over propping, reducing the expected 3100-3200 Volvo D3-110 to your observed 2900ish range.

But 2200 (our WOT RPM with the fixed prop in calm seas) is much lower than 2900, and I have a hard time thinking such a great drop is due to the lack of prop arm adjustment for appropriate bite as seen with the autoprop.

Any data would be very appreciated.

Many thanks

Porter Helen Grace and Lilly
S/V Ibis A54-152
Isla Contadora, Panama

Excuse the errors.
Sent from my IPhone
Www.fouribis.com <http://www.fouribis.com/>

On Aug 30, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@aol.com <mailto:ngtnewington@aol.com> [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:



Hi Porter,

I watched the video that is a massive reduction in RPM.. Is their black smoke when it does that because it looks like the engine is seriously overloaded and about to stall?

So the fixed blade prop stops it right. Therefore there is nothing wrong with the engine itself.

Thus it must be something to do with the Bruntons Autoprop, which is a variable pitch prop.

The pitch varies automatically in order to maximise efficiency. "The Autoprop blades, unlike those of conventional propellers, maximise the thrust delivered whatever rpm the yachts engine is running at “

quote from Autoprop website.

So if the thrust is maximised at all times then load on the engine must vary a bit. Just like say the big alternator kicking in when one runs a heavy load off it, say a toaster for example. So I would expect a slight variability in the rpm as the load on the engine varies but not like in your video.

Agreed there is something wrong with the prop. You could strip it down yourself, it is pretty easy, before returning for service.


Nick

Amelia (Amel 54 019) back at home for a bit.

On 30 Aug 2018, at 10:44, trifin@soundthinking.com.au <mailto:trifin@soundthinking.com.au> [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

Porter,

Wow, that is a pretty major "wander" in the video, so glad to see it was resolved by changing prop.
Your numbers look ok, except for WOT 2200 seems awfully low. I think you do need to follow that up with Volvo, particularly with the fixed prop now in place.

I checked my WOT this morning in flat water/no wind and it was stable at 2920rpm.

I also took a short video of the wandering I was referring to, its in the" ZF25 Transmission" folder in the files section. It shows a variation from 1170 to 1210, difficult to hear the engine note on the video, but 40rpm variation is just enough to make the ears prick up!. Given yours and Mohammad's observations, i'll put it down to propeller effects..

I've also uploaded my Sea Trial results from a few weeks ago after we had the gearbox fitted.
It was a bit choppy and breezy, so the speeds are a bit lower than we get in flat water.

Danny, and others - I've solved my oil leak. Not sure exactly what to attribute it to.
I found an extra 1/4 turn on one of the fwd end sump bolts, but I've also done my regular oil/filter change including replacing the Oring on the oil filter cap. One of those things solved it - I suspect the filter cap may have been the culprit.

Cheers
Dean
SY Stella
AMEL 54 #154





Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Washing machine removal

Porter McRoberts
 

First hand experience Paul. 

Hardest part by far is finding suitable replacement for the existing unit. 
1. Start by removing handrail above the forward head: look in small hallway closet. 
2. You have to remove the shelf and the carpeted pvc pipe ac duct cover/protector. 
3. Get behind the unit via panel in port bedroom 4. Remove knurled knobs securing washer to panel. Remove and turn off fresh water supply and unplug from 239v outlet 
5. A 2x4 helps facilitate pulling unit out. It’s heavy and may damage toilet. 2 people a plug for this. 
6 once out disassemble unit at the top and find the counter balance/ weight. Removing this significantly diminishes weight of the machine so it’s safely maneuverable.   

7. Out it goes. 

8. Reverse steps with New or fixed unit 

9. Enjoy champagne with elated spouse. 

Hope this helps. 

Porter 
A54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 9:30 AM, sharongbrown@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi all,

Would someone have any experience in removing the clothes washer from its mounting in the Amel 54?

Cheers,
Paul
Ya Fohi - Amel 54 #98



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Expected RPM at WOT

Porter McRoberts
 

So rational. Thank you Bill
I am gearing up to get under the boat, take off the prop, while reading kids book reports!  
My engine report to follow this afternoon!

Porter
54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 9:51 AM, Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

Some random thoughts...read the last paragraph/suggestion.

I believe any alignment problem will present itself with considerable vibration.

I think you should press Volvo, but I guess you could disconnect the Vetus coupling and see what RPM you can achieve with the transmission in gear. I don't know what the RPM should be in this case, but probably very close to the RPM achieved in neutral. 

I believe an alternator could be a source of too much load, however, if you achieve high RPM in neutral, the alternator(s) can be eliminated.

We must remember that the Volvo computer is designed to prevent sending more fuel to the injectors than the engine is capable of burning. This minimizes pollution, which was the primary goal of the D3. The best example of pollution caused by sending more diesel to diesel cylinders is exhibited by large trucks accelerating with plumes of black smoke (unburned diesel).

What about this scenario:
Remembering that Volvo specified the prop, what about an RPM test with no prop? I believe if you achieve high RPM, you have eliminated all connected sources of friction and proven that the only source of your problem is the Volvo engine and probably, wiring, sensors, or computer.

I hope this helps.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 8:27 AM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill 

As always I really appreciate your thoughts on this... I think it is the computer or sensors too. Also we were getting 2600 rpm before that long block exchange (with poor compression). 
So today I’ll try and wiggle the fixed prop off and run the naked spline. 

And I’ll take you up on your offer of a letter to Volvo. 

Thanks again Guru

Porter. A54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 4:36 PM, Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

If you can easily spin the prop in neutral with the shaft brake OFF, the C-drive isn't adding friction.

I think that you have two remaining possibilities:
  1. The brand new transmission is faulty, when it was not faulty before the long block change (I think very, very unlikely)
  2. Volvo Computer is not allowing higher RPMs for some unknown reason.
With a new transmission, a changed prop (which Volvo spec'd in the 1st place), and the c-drive tested, I have to believe that the problem is with the Volvo Computer. There is one more reason I point to the Volvo Computer: Of all of the possibilities, it is the most likely because of our combined experience with Volvo, the D3 and its computer.

I will happily write Volvo a more detailed explanation when you get to that point..

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:05 PM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Nick. Yes. Thank you. 


Re WOT out of gear: 3100rpm

The transmission is fairly new:  replaced in he spring. 


Re friction within the cdrive. 

With engine idling in neutral, brake open I swim under the boat and can easily spin the prop. 

How can I better evaluate resistance in the system?: motor—New ZF tranny—vetus(friction??)— cdrive— prop. 

I think the next step is to take the fixed prop off. 
I need a gear puller to get it off I think (which I don’t have and need to get (any recommendations?).. Unless anyone has another suggestion? Tying the autoprop puller to the fixed prop using low stretch amsteel?  

Again all very good suggestions. 

Let’s say it is the cdrive. What then??????

Thank you all!!

Porter 

Amel 54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 12:47 PM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Sorry Porter,


Just going over the email again.

You have max RPM of 2200 at WOT with the new fixed prop, right? If so that can not be correct. It should be around 2850.  I doubt Amel would supply a spare prop that is not correct for the engine, at least not to that degree. To be so far from the desired RPM at WOT may cause problems with your new engine. 

What RPM can you achieve out of gear? 

What about the C drive? Have you checked that is working without friction? 


On my 54 with 2006 D3 110 and the Autoprop I get 2850 at WOT, with a clean prop and hull. 

Nick



On 30 Aug 2018, at 15:46, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Thank you everyone for your thoughts re our engine woes they are quite appreciated. 


May I ask thoughts re expected rpm during WOT with the supplied fixed prop on the Amel 54?


Has anyone with the fixed prop determined an observed RPM with WOT?  Volvo is telling me that they think 2200 is due to too large a prop. Now I know the H6 is a slight over propping, reducing the expected 3100-3200 Volvo D3-110 to your observed 2900ish range. 

But 2200 (our WOT RPM with the fixed prop in calm seas) is much lower than 2900, and I have a hard time thinking such a great drop is due to the lack of prop arm adjustment for appropriate bite as seen with the autoprop. 

Any data would be very appreciated. 

Many thanks

Porter Helen Grace and Lilly
S/V Ibis A54-152
Isla Contadora, Panama

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 30, 2018, at 5:40 AM, Nick Newington ngtnewington@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Porter,

I watched the video that is a massive reduction in RPM.. Is their black smoke when it does that because it looks like the engine is seriously overloaded and about to stall?

So the fixed blade prop stops it right. Therefore there is nothing wrong with the engine itself.

Thus it must be something to do with the Bruntons Autoprop, which is a variable pitch prop.

The pitch varies automatically in order to maximise efficiency. "The Autoprop blades, unlike those of conventional propellers, maximise the thrust delivered whatever rpm the yachts engine is running at “

quote from Autoprop website.

So if the thrust  is maximised at all times then load on the engine must vary a bit. Just like say the big alternator kicking in when one runs a heavy load off it, say a toaster for example. So I would expect a slight variability in the rpm as the load on the engine varies but not like in your video.

Agreed there is something wrong with the prop. You could strip it down yourself, it is pretty easy, before returning for service.


Nick

Amelia (Amel 54 019) back at home for a bit.

On 30 Aug 2018, at 10:44, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Porter,

Wow, that is a pretty major "wander" in the video, so glad to see it was resolved by changing prop.  
Your numbers look ok, except for WOT 2200 seems awfully low. I think you do need to follow that up with Volvo, particularly with the fixed prop now in place.

I checked my WOT this morning in flat water/no wind and it was stable at 2920rpm.  

I also took a short video of the wandering I was referring to, its in the" ZF25 Transmission" folder in the files section.  It shows a variation from 1170 to 1210, difficult to hear the engine note on the video, but 40rpm variation is just enough to make the ears prick up!. Given yours and Mohammad's observations, i'll put it down to propeller effects..

I've also uploaded my Sea Trial results from a few weeks ago after we had the gearbox fitted.
It was a bit choppy and breezy, so the speeds are a bit lower than we get in flat water.

Danny, and others - I've solved my oil leak.  Not sure exactly what to attribute it to.
I found an extra 1/4 turn on one of the fwd end sump bolts, but I've also done my regular oil/filter change including replacing the Oring on the oil filter cap.  One of those things solved it - I suspect the filter cap may have been the culprit.   

Cheers
Dean
SY Stella
AMEL 54 #154






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