Date   

Re: Batteries

Duane Siegfri
 

Danny,

I would be interested in the desulphation program on the Dolphin charger as well.

Thanks,
Duane 
Wanderer, SM#477


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi again Pat, after I get to the boat in the next few days I will post photos of the hand book and the graph of the desulphation program. Basically it is a controlled period of seriously high voltage over charging. A lot of gas given off. Caps off the batteries and the battery compartment lid closed and no naked flames any where near. Would be impossible in a boat without a closed and vented battery compartment.
Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl

Sent from my Vodafone Smart

On 12 Dec 2017 11:11, "Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Danny, Do you use your solar panels to disulfide your batteries ? My solar reg. has that option.

Thanks,
Pat SM#123


-----Original Message-----
From: Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Mon, Dec 11, 2017 1:39 pm
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries

 
Hi Mark,
Those batteries were 12 six volt golf cart type bought from West Marine in Newport Rhode Island. After 4 years I was on the point of replacing them when through the input of another cruiser I found my dolphin desulphation program. When sulphates build up on the plates the charge has to be "pushed" through this layer, the thicker it is the more resistance there is. What you will notice is that when charging they come up to "full " charge quickly, but then don't hold the charge. This is because the charge did not make it fully into the plates. There is nothing wrong with the plates, the charge just didn't get in there.
So how often did I desulphate? When I noticed this effect becoming prominent. 
I do believe the solar panels and the wind generator are a big part of getting a long life. I have talked to cruisers who have got 10 years plus from lead acid by using desulphation so perhaps rather than searching for the &# 34;right" battery the answer is to have chargers that provide an effective desulphation program, and apply it correctly. Maintenance. Keep them well watered all the time and keep terminals and connections clean and making good contact. 
Regards
Danny
SM 299 Ocean Pearl
On 12 December 2017 at 05:18 "mfmcgovern@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Danny,

8 years is an incredibly long time for any batteries to last, let alone relatively inexpensive flooded lead acid batteries.  What type and brand battery were they?  How often did you run the desulphation program?  Is it possible for you to share your entire "battery care regimen" with the forum either via a post or an uploaded f ile?  I would find it incredibly useful and I'm sure others would too.

Thanks,
Mark McGovern
SM#440 Cara
Deale, MD USA 
 

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Pat, no I don't. They wouldn't have anywhere near enough grunt.
Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl

Sent from my Vodafone Smart

On 12 Dec 2017 11:11 a.m., "Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Danny, Do you use your solar panels to disulfide your batteries ? My solar reg. has that option.

Thanks,
Pat SM#123


-----Original Message-----
From: Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Mon, Dec 11, 2017 1:39 pm
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries

 
Hi Mark,
Those batteries were 12 six volt golf cart type bought from West Marine in Newport Rhode Island. After 4 years I was on the point of replacing them when through the input of another cruiser I found my dolphin desulphation program. When sulphates build up on the plates the charge has to be "pushed" through this layer, the thicker it is the more resistance there is. What you will notice is that when charging they come up to "full " charge quickly, but then don't hold the charge. This is because the charge did not make it fully into the plates. There is nothing wrong with the plates, the charge just didn't get in there.
So how often did I desulphate? When I noticed this effect becoming prominent. 
I do believe the solar panels and the wind generator are a big part of getting a long life. I have talked to cruisers who have got 10 years plus from lead acid by using desulphation so perhaps rather than searching for the &# 34;right" battery the answer is to have chargers that provide an effective desulphation program, and apply it correctly. Maintenance. Keep them well watered all the time and keep terminals and connections clean and making good contact. 
Regards
Danny
SM 299 Ocean Pearl
On 12 December 2017 at 05:18 "mfmcgovern@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Danny,

8 years is an incredibly long time for any batteries to last, let alone relatively inexpensive flooded lead acid batteries.  What type and brand battery were they?  How often did you run the desulphation program?  Is it possible for you to share your entire "battery care regimen" with the forum either via a post or an uploaded f ile?  I would find it incredibly useful and I'm sure others would too.

Thanks,
Mark McGovern
SM#440 Cara
Deale, MD USA 
 

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Companionway Removal, another method.

Craig Briggs
 

While you're at it, think about replacing it with Plexiglas. When ours gave out many years ago that's what I did. The added light below is fantastic, especially if you're living aboard. We hand a cloth privacy curtain from the locking knobs at night if we're in a marina.

Cheers, Craig SN#68


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Companionway Removal, another method.

eric freedman
 

Nothing attached.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 5:01 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Companionway Removal, another method.

 

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries

Patrick McAneny
 

Danny, Do you use your solar panels to disulfide your batteries ? My solar reg. has that option.
Thanks,
Pat SM#123


-----Original Message-----
From: Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Mon, Dec 11, 2017 1:39 pm
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries

 
Hi Mark,
Those batteries were 12 six volt golf cart type bought from West Marine in Newport Rhode Island. After 4 years I was on the point of replacing them when through the input of another cruiser I found my dolphin desulphation program. When sulphates build up on the plates the charge has to be "pushed" through this layer, the thicker it is the more resistance there is. What you will notice is that when charging they come up to "full " charge quickly, but then don't hold the charge. This is because the charge did not make it fully into the plates. There is nothing wrong with the plates, the charge just didn't get in there.
So how often did I desulphate? When I noticed this effect becoming prominent. 
I do believe the solar panels and the wind generator are a big part of getting a long life. I have talked to cruisers who have got 10 years plus from lead acid by using desulphation so perhaps rather than searching for the &# 34;right" battery the answer is to have chargers that provide an effective desulphation program, and apply it correctly. Maintenance. Keep them well watered all the time and keep terminals and connections clean and making good contact. 
Regards
Danny
SM 299 Ocean Pearl
On 12 December 2017 at 05:18 "mfmcgovern@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Danny,

8 years is an incredibly long time for any batteries to last, let alone relatively inexpensive flooded lead acid batteries.  What type and brand battery were they?  How often did you run the desulphation program?  Is it possible for you to share your entire "battery care regimen" with the forum either via a post or an uploaded f ile?  I would find it incredibly useful and I'm sure others would too.

Thanks,
Mark McGovern
SM#440 Cara
Deale, MD USA 
 

 


Re: Companionway Removal, another method.

greatketch@...
 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Companionway Removal, another method.

eric freedman
 

Ryan,

What is your email address?

Fair Winds

Eric

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 3:31 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Companionway Removal, another method.

 

 

Duane, I will try to remember to digitize and upload the paper companionway plans I have from Amel.

 

Eric, I'd love to learn your technique for removing the companionway slide.  I'm sure I'm not the only one -- perhaps you could upload/send it to the list?

 

Thanks,

 

Ryan

SM 233 Iteration

Boston, MA, USA

 

On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 3:21 PM, 'sailormon' kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Bill,

I am adding a piece of brown nylon above where the cross bar should stop.

That will align it every time.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 12:19 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Companionway Removal, another method.

 

 

You can access the weather stripping easily without fully removing the slide, just lift the slide up.  

 

There is a stop on the bottom, aft side of the slide that is easily removable, and once off,  the slide can rise--until it hits the dodger. More than high enough to easily access the weather stripping.

 

Just a random thought:  It would be nice if that stop was positioned to actually stop the slide at the correct point to lock in place with the cross bar.  Sigh... I think I just assigned myself another project.

 

Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

Fort Lauderdale, FL

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Companionway Removal, another method.

Ryan Meador
 

Duane, I will try to remember to digitize and upload the paper companionway plans I have from Amel.

Eric, I'd love to learn your technique for removing the companionway slide.  I'm sure I'm not the only one -- perhaps you could upload/send it to the list?

Thanks,

Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA

On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 3:21 PM, 'sailormon' kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill,

I am adding a piece of brown nylon above where the cross bar should stop.

That will align it every time.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 12:19 PM
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Companionway Removal, another method.

 

 

You can access the weather stripping easily without fully removing the slide, just lift the slide up.  

 

There is a stop on the bottom, aft side of the slide that is easily removable, and once off,  the slide can rise--until it hits the dodger. More than high enough to easily access the weather stripping.

 

Just a random thought:  It would be nice if that stop was positioned to actually stop the slide at the correct point to lock in place with the cross bar.  Sigh... I think I just assigned myself another project.

 

Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

Fort Lauderdale, FL



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Companionway Removal, another method.

eric freedman
 

Bill,

I am adding a piece of brown nylon above where the cross bar should stop.

That will align it every time.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 12:19 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Companionway Removal, another method.

 

 

You can access the weather stripping easily without fully removing the slide, just lift the slide up.  

 

There is a stop on the bottom, aft side of the slide that is easily removable, and once off,  the slide can rise--until it hits the dodger. More than high enough to easily access the weather stripping.

 

Just a random thought:  It would be nice if that stop was positioned to actually stop the slide at the correct point to lock in place with the cross bar.  Sigh... I think I just assigned myself another project.

 

Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

Fort Lauderdale, FL


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Companionway Removal, another method.

eric freedman
 

Ryan,

If you wish I can send  you photos and an explanation how I did it. My method is much simpler.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 10:45 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Companionway Removal, another method.

 

 

Thanks for the info, Bill.  I was wondering how to do that project myself (I think I even emailed the list about it) and only knew about the first two ideas.  I spent some time studying the plans for the companionway trying to figure out how it could be removed without so much work.  Everything else on this boat is brilliantly designed for easy maintenance and access; I still can't believe there isn't an easy way to remove the companionway slide.  I may take your approach if I'm unsatisfied with how well I can do the varnish while it's installed.  I imagine it would make replacing the weather stripping a lot easier too.

 

Ryan

SM 233 Iteration

Boston, MA, USA

 

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 12:50 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I haven't found this method of removing the companionway discussed here, if I have missed it in searching, my apologies for being redundant...

 

When we got our boat, the teak in the cockpit had been finished with Cetol, a product with a look that is... how to say..."not to my taste."  The vertical sliding door also needed new veneer. A major refinishing project was called for.  To do this we needed good access to the door, which is not a trivial project on a Super Maramu.  I am aware of three techniques to do this.

 

First method was lifting the door as high as possible, and refinishing only what is then exposed. We dismissed this as unworthy of our yacht.

 

Second, was unbolting the dodger and raising it enough to lift the door out of its track. This would give us full access to the door, but seemed an awful lot of work and would create the potential for leaks where we didn’t have any.

 

Last, and in my mind best, is to use a fine kerf saw to remove the inside rail of the starboard side track, cutting vertically, athwartship, followed by a cross cut right at the top of the companionway ladder. This allows the door to be removed without other modification making reveneering and refinishing an easy workbench project.

 

I used a fine blade on my Fein multitool to do the cutting. Some kinds of hand saw would also do a very nice job. The rail was reattached with four countersunk screws, and nylon washers were added under the rail to make up for the wood removed by the saw kerf.  If you don’t do this the track can become too narrow to fit the door well.

 

This approach has the advantage that the door can be easily removed anytime in the future by removing the screws.  The gap resulting from the saw kerf is virtually invisible when reassembled. If you don’t want to see the screwheads you can put teak plugs in at the cost of making future removal a bit more work. If you wanted to be REALLY fussy you could replace the wood lost to the kerf by a glueing on a couple thicknesses of teak veneer to replace it. 

 

I’d love to claim that this method of removing the companionway slide was the result of my own natural brilliance and clever insight, but the idea actually came from Joel Potter.

 

Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

Fort Lauderdale, FL

 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Bill,
I bought my two chargers 100 amp and 50 amp from the manufacturers in France in 2012 after my electronics were wiped put in an electrical surge in a thunder storm in Fiji We weren't hit, just a surge. They replaced those that were on board when we bought the boat in 2008. They also had the desulphation program. When I go to the boat next I will photograph the page in the handbook.
Regards
Dsnny

Sent from my Vodafone Smart

On 12 Dec 2017 08:23, "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Danny,


Which model Dolphin charger do you have?  I can't find any mention of a desulphating program on their current website.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL

---In amelyachtowners@..., <simms@...> wrote :

Hi Mark,

Those batteries were 12 six volt golf cart type bought from West Marine in Newport Rhode Island. After 4 years I was on the point of replacing them when through the input of another cruiser I found my dolphin desulphation program. When sulphates build up on the plates the charge has to be "pushed" through this layer, the thicker it is the more resistance there is. What you will notice is that when charging they come up to "full " charge quickly, but then don't hold the charge. This is because the charge did not make it fully into the plates. There is nothing wrong with the plates, the charge just didn't get in there.

So how often did I desulphate? When I noticed this effect becoming prominent. 

I do believe the solar panels and the wind generator are a big part of getting a long life. I have talked to cruisers who have got 10 years plus from lead acid by using desulphation so perhaps rather than searching for the "right" battery the answer is to have chargers that provide an effective desulphation program, and apply it correctly. Maintenance. Keep them well watered all the time and keep terminals and connections clean and making good contact. 

Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl



Re: Companionway Removal, another method.

Duane Siegfri
 

Ryan & Bill,

Ryan, I'd appreciate a copy of the companionway door plans you mentioned...or are they in the Photos or Files section?  I searched but did not find.

Bill,

I take it your sawcut was parallel to the door on the inner side of the track?  Did you make the cut on the Starboard side?  When the sawcut went all the way through was it clear of the interior wood paneling?  Did you need to remove the trim for the ceiling vinyl?  

Many thanks,
Duane
Wanderer, SM#477


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries

greatketch@...
 

Danny,

Which model Dolphin charger do you have?  I can't find any mention of a desulphating program on their current website.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL

---In amelyachtowners@..., <simms@...> wrote :

Hi Mark,

Those batteries were 12 six volt golf cart type bought from West Marine in Newport Rhode Island. After 4 years I was on the point of replacing them when through the input of another cruiser I found my dolphin desulphation program. When sulphates build up on the plates the charge has to be "pushed" through this layer, the thicker it is the more resistance there is. What you will notice is that when charging they come up to "full " charge quickly, but then don't hold the charge. This is because the charge did not make it fully into the plates. There is nothing wrong with the plates, the charge just didn't get in there.

So how often did I desulphate? When I noticed this effect becoming prominent. 

I do believe the solar panels and the wind generator are a big part of getting a long life. I have talked to cruisers who have got 10 years plus from lead acid by using desulphation so perhaps rather than searching for the "right" battery the answer is to have chargers that provide an effective desulphation program, and apply it correctly. Maintenance. Keep them well watered all the time and keep terminals and connections clean and making good contact. 

Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl



Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Mark,

Those batteries were 12 six volt golf cart type bought from West Marine in Newport Rhode Island. After 4 years I was on the point of replacing them when through the input of another cruiser I found my dolphin desulphation program. When sulphates build up on the plates the charge has to be "pushed" through this layer, the thicker it is the more resistance there is. What you will notice is that when charging they come up to "full " charge quickly, but then don't hold the charge. This is because the charge did not make it fully into the plates. There is nothing wrong with the plates, the charge just didn't get in there.

So how often did I desulphate? When I noticed this effect becoming prominent. 

I do believe the solar panels and the wind generator are a big part of getting a long life. I have talked to cruisers who have got 10 years plus from lead acid by using desulphation so perhaps rather than searching for the "right" battery the answer is to have chargers that provide an effective desulphation program, and apply it correctly. Maintenance. Keep them well watered all the time and keep terminals and connections clean and making good contact. 

Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 12 December 2017 at 05:18 "mfmcgovern@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Danny,


8 years is an incredibly long time for any batteries to last, let alone relatively inexpensive flooded lead acid batteries.  What type and brand battery were they?  How often did you run the desulphation program?  Is it possible for you to share your entire "battery care regimen" with the forum either via a post or an uploaded file?  I would find it incredibly useful and I'm sure others would too.

Thanks,
Mark McGovern
SM#440 Cara
Deale, MD USA 

 


 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries

greatketch@...
 

Mark,

8 years is a great lifespan, and shows batteries being cared for very well, but look carefully at the usage. 

Being cycled 4 to 5 months out of the year changes the life cycle picture by a lot compared to 12 month a year cruising. When kept at full or nearly full charge, batteries age very slowly.  Flooded batteries can easily have a life of over ten years if they are floated at the proper voltage, kept watered, and used intermittently with good charging practices.

Another part of the puzzle that is frequently neglected in discussions of battery life is the effect of temperature on lifespan. For pretty much all kinds of lead-acid batteries, a temperature rise of 10C will cut the lifespan in half.  That can make a significant difference between boats that spend their lives in cold water compared to tropical cruisers. (And is a really good reason why batteries never belong in an engine room!)

You also have to be a bit lucky that none of the cells develop an internal short.

On my last boat, I killed a 7 year old set of flooded batteries almost exactly the same way as Danny--by accidentally leaving the boat for weeks with the charger off and the freezer on.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Found it!

Alex Ramseyer <alexramseyer@...>
 

thanks a lot Martin!


On Saturday, December 9, 2017, 4:34:55 PM GMT-4, luvkante@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:


 

Gasventil: BÜRKERT 125301 
SEF 0509

6013 A 3,0 FPM
G1/4 PNO-6bar
24V DC 8 W

Viele Grüsse,

Martin

AMEL 54 #149
CHIARA


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Companionway Removal, another method.

greatketch@...
 

You can access the weather stripping easily without fully removing the slide, just lift the slide up.  

There is a stop on the bottom, aft side of the slide that is easily removable, and once off,  the slide can rise--until it hits the dodger. More than high enough to easily access the weather stripping.

Just a random thought:  It would be nice if that stop was positioned to actually stop the slide at the correct point to lock in place with the cross bar.  Sigh... I think I just assigned myself another project.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Batteries

mfmcgovern@...
 

Danny,

8 years is an incredibly long time for any batteries to last, let alone relatively inexpensive flooded lead acid batteries.  What type and brand battery were they?  How often did you run the desulphation program?  Is it possible for you to share your entire "battery care regimen" with the forum either via a post or an uploaded file?  I would find it incredibly useful and I'm sure others would too.

Thanks,
Mark McGovern
SM#440 Cara
Deale, MD USA 


Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Companionway Removal, another method.

Ryan Meador
 

Thanks for the info, Bill.  I was wondering how to do that project myself (I think I even emailed the list about it) and only knew about the first two ideas.  I spent some time studying the plans for the companionway trying to figure out how it could be removed without so much work.  Everything else on this boat is brilliantly designed for easy maintenance and access; I still can't believe there isn't an easy way to remove the companionway slide.  I may take your approach if I'm unsatisfied with how well I can do the varnish while it's installed.  I imagine it would make replacing the weather stripping a lot easier too.

Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 12:50 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

I haven't found this method of removing the companionway discussed here, if I have missed it in searching, my apologies for being redundant...


When we got our boat, the teak in the cockpit had been finished with Cetol, a product with a look that is... how to say..."not to my taste."  The vertical sliding door also needed new veneer. A major refinishing project was called for.  To do this we needed good access to the door, which is not a trivial project on a Super Maramu.  I am aware of three techniques to do this.


First method was lifting the door as high as possible, and refinishing only what is then exposed. We dismissed this as unworthy of our yacht.

Second, was unbolting the dodger and raising it enough to lift the door out of its track. This would give us full access to the door, but seemed an awful lot of work and would create the potential for leaks where we didn’t have any.

Last, and in my mind best, is to use a fine kerf saw to remove the inside rail of the starboard side track, cutting vertically, athwartship, followed by a cross cut right at the top of the companionway ladder. This allows the door to be removed without other modification making reveneering and refinishing an easy workbench project.

I used a fine blade on my Fein multitool to do the cutting. Some kinds of hand saw would also do a very nice job. The rail was reattached with four countersunk screws, and nylon washers were added under the rail to make up for the wood removed by the saw kerf.  If you don’t do this the track can become too narrow to fit the door well.

This approach has the advantage that the door can be easily removed anytime in the future by removing the screws.  The gap resulting from the saw kerf is virtually invisible when reassembled. If you don’t want to see the screwheads you can put teak plugs in at the cost of making future removal a bit more work. If you wanted to be REALLY fussy you could replace the wood lost to the kerf by a glueing on a couple thicknesses of teak veneer to replace it. 

I’d love to claim that this method of removing the companionway slide was the result of my own natural brilliance and clever insight, but the idea actually came from Joel Potter.

Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

Fort Lauderdale, FL