Topics

[Amel Yacht Owners] advice needed - above or below 15 meters LOA


Luis Gonzalez Vallejo <l_gonzalezvallejo@...>
 

I have a Mango from 1994. In some european countries ,as in my case in Spain, what is relevant is the kind on navegation that you are allowed for, not the length of the boat.So , if you apply for offshore saling eg. to sail anywhere in the world you have to get the Yacht Captain, and the boat has be licensing for navegation Class A, it means that the boat has to fulfill a list of requirements , mainly on safety equipment, independently to the boats length.On the other hand if your navegation area is less than 60 miles from the coast, your license is for Yacht Skipper, and your boat is licensing for Class B. Your insurance will cover for any specific navegation. I have not any particular problem with the 53 ft of my Mango. Also the harbour fares depends on the LOA x Beam, and there is not particular charge over 15 m. Basic maintenance , is cheaper than any other similar boat of her length. Please let me know any other specific question on Mango.
Luis, from "Aloysius".
,
cjcolclough <cjcolclough@...> wrote:
Dear all

We are writing to you to ask for advice concerning the pros and cons
of owning a yacht, which is larger than 15 meters LOA.

As we suppose you know, European laws, and in our case Danish laws,
with regards yachts > 15 meters are pretty strict. To sail within
Europe we must have a Yacht Captain 3 exam, to sail outside European
waters a Yacht Captain 1. Pantaeneus Insurance informs us that should
an accident happen and we do not have the required papers, the
insurance will formally not cover, however informally it might (the
actual decision will depend on the type of accident. This also means
that to sail in, for example, the Carribean there must at all times
be a captain on board with the Yacht Captain 1 and a second person
onboard with at least a Yacht Captain 3. In all other cases the rules
are violated and the insurance might not cover.

There are no such requirements for yachts < 15 meters

So be it, we would ofcourse get the required exams should we buy the
Mango we currently are looking at. However our concerns do not stop
there. We have been told that harbour prices become much more
expensive as soon as the yacht is > 15 meters. Is this true? And what
about the ongoing costs of maintaining a Mango? How much should we
roughly count on spending on ordinary maintenance?

Basically what we are unclear about is whether the extra 6 feet the
Mango has on the Maramu are worth the extra bother, rules, red tape
and costs. Given that we would use the yacht for blue water cruising
and hopefully long trips to far away places, we have these following
questions in mind:

Is the living space in the Mango that much larger than in a Maramu?
Is the comfort - both the day to day living comfort as well as the
sailing experience - better in the Mango?
Are there other particular issues with having a yacht > 15 meters,
which we should know about and consider?
Essentially is the Mango that much better than the Maramu that all
the extra hassle is well worth it?

We fully realise that we are asking questions that only can be
answered subjectively. However we would appreciate your opinions,
thoughts and knowledge as we are only beginning to venture into the
world of blue water cruising and have therefore very little practical
experience with these matters.

Kindest regards and safe winds,

Christina and Lars
Denmark



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christina colclough <cjcolclough@...>
 

--- Luis Gonzalez Vallejo
<l_gonzalezvallejo@...> wrote:
---------------------------------
I have a Mango from 1994. In some european countries
,as in my case in Spain, what is relevant is the kind
on navegation that you are allowed for, not the
length of the boat.So , if you apply for offshore
saling eg. to sail anywhere in the world you have to
get the Yacht Captain, and the boat has be
licensing for navegation Class A, it means that the
boat has to fulfill a list of requirements , mainly on
safety equipment, independently to the boats
length.On the other hand if your navegation area is
less than 60 miles from the coast, your license is for
Yacht Skipper, and your boat is licensing for Class B.
Your insurance will cover for any specific navegation.
I have not any particular problem with the 53 ft of
my Mango. Also the harbour fares depends on the LOA x
Beam, and there is not particular charge over 15 m.
Basic maintenance , is cheaper than any other similar
boat of her length. Please let me know any other
specific question on Mango.
Luis, from "Aloysius".
,
cjcolclough <cjcolclough@...> wrote:
Dear all

We are writing to you to ask for advice concerning the
pros and cons
of owning a yacht, which is larger than 15 meters LOA.


As we suppose you know, European laws, and in our case
Danish laws,
with regards yachts > 15 meters are pretty strict. To
sail within
Europe we must have a Yacht Captain 3 exam, to sail
outside European
waters a Yacht Captain 1. Pantaeneus Insurance informs
us that should
an accident happen and we do not have the required
papers, the
insurance will formally not cover, however informally
it might (the
actual decision will depend on the type of accident.
This also means
that to sail in, for example, the Carribean there must
at all times
be a captain on board with the Yacht Captain 1 and a
second person
onboard with at least a Yacht Captain 3. In all other
cases the rules
are violated and the insurance might not cover.

There are no such requirements for yachts < 15 meters

So be it, we would ofcourse get the required exams
should we buy the
Mango we currently are looking at. However our
concerns do not stop
there. We have been told that harbour prices become
much more
expensive as soon as the yacht is > 15 meters. Is this
true? And what
about the ongoing costs of maintaining a Mango? How
much should we
roughly count on spending on ordinary maintenance?

Basically what we are unclear about is whether the
extra 6 feet the
Mango has on the Maramu are worth the extra bother,
rules, red tape
and costs. Given that we would use the yacht for blue
water cruising
and hopefully long trips to far away places, we have
these following
questions in mind:

Is the living space in the Mango that much larger than
in a Maramu?
Is the comfort - both the day to day living comfort as
well as the
sailing experience - better in the Mango?
Are there other particular issues with having a yacht
15 meters,
which we should know about and consider?
Essentially is the Mango that much better than the
Maramu that all
the extra hassle is well worth it?

We fully realise that we are asking questions that
only can be
answered subjectively. However we would appreciate
your opinions,
thoughts and knowledge as we are only beginning to
venture into the
world of blue water cruising and have therefore very
little practical
experience with these matters.

Kindest regards and safe winds,

Christina and Lars
Denmark



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Luis Gonzalez Vallejo <l_gonzalezvallejo@...>
 

Dear Christine and Lars,
Some of your questions are dificult to answer, depends on countries , insurance companies , place of navegation, etc. I try::
Insurances, I strongly reccommend you to read an excellent report on Cruising World( www.cruisingworld.com), March 2004: The Crisis in Offshore Marine Insurance. My company ,based in Spain charge me an extra cost if I sail to Caribean,the only requirement is that the qualified captain or skipper must be on board when sailing, as in any other circunstances.
Harbour prices are scaled by LOA or LOAxBeam ( sq.meters), and there is not a step up for 15m more than for others, that is for my experience, obviously above 15 m the number of moorings in the marinas are less as far as the length increases, and therefore the prices are raised upper.
Maintenance for my Mango bassically consists on : Once a year the boat is on the dry dock for antifouling , anticorrosion anodes(?) replacement, minor repairs, and checking. That means 1 week and the cost in Alicante is around 1000 Eur. to 1500Eur. Besides, the engine and gen needs regulary maintenances, as for any boat, am this is not a significant cost if not major repairs. The real problem on any boat-less in Amels for the strong construction- is to mantain working the various equipments, e.g.electronics,electric pumps, batteries, refrigerators etc ... That depends mostly how old are they and how are they have been properly installed. On my 20 yrs old boat I have to replace almost all the equipment: sails, engine ,gen, electronics, fridge, .. however some are working very well since new!. The average cost to do this in the last 10 years, have been about from 5 to 8 % the actual value of the boat. For example this year I have replaced the gen, batteries , frigoboat alternator,
some navegation ligths,and some more electrical systems and the cost is around 10,000 Eur.
Compairing Mango vs S.Maramu :Mango is havier than Maramu, better designed to face bad weather and slowlier and less surface sail The maniouvre is by hand as originally fitted, but I think is better sea going whem the weather is bad , and therefore more comfortable under this circumstances. On deck, the Maramu is much better, more room, better distribution, etc.Inside Mango is very comfortable and I will not change for Maramu ,although this is a personal question. In balance I will change my Mango for a Maramu , a question of budget! mainly for the great improvement on rigging and maniouvres, the deck space and distribution, not for interiors.
Any question I can help please ask!
Regards,
Luis
christina colclough <cjcolclough@...> wrote:
--- Luis Gonzalez Vallejo
<l_gonzalezvallejo@...> wrote:
---------------------------------
I have a Mango from 1994. In some european countries
,as in my case in Spain, what is relevant is the kind
on navegation that you are allowed for, not the
length of the boat.So , if you apply for offshore
saling eg. to sail anywhere in the world you have to
get the Yacht Captain, and the boat has be
licensing for navegation Class A, it means that the
boat has to fulfill a list of requirements , mainly on
safety equipment, independently to the boats
length.On the other hand if your navegation area is
less than 60 miles from the coast, your license is for
Yacht Skipper, and your boat is licensing for Class B.
Your insurance will cover for any specific navegation.
I have not any particular problem with the 53 ft of
my Mango. Also the harbour fares depends on the LOA x
Beam, and there is not particular charge over 15 m.
Basic maintenance , is cheaper than any other similar
boat of her length. Please let me know any other
specific question on Mango.
Luis, from "Aloysius".
,
cjcolclough <cjcolclough@...> wrote:
Dear all

We are writing to you to ask for advice concerning the
pros and cons
of owning a yacht, which is larger than 15 meters LOA.


As we suppose you know, European laws, and in our case
Danish laws,
with regards yachts > 15 meters are pretty strict. To
sail within
Europe we must have a Yacht Captain 3 exam, to sail
outside European
waters a Yacht Captain 1. Pantaeneus Insurance informs
us that should
an accident happen and we do not have the required
papers, the
insurance will formally not cover, however informally
it might (the
actual decision will depend on the type of accident.
This also means
that to sail in, for example, the Carribean there must
at all times
be a captain on board with the Yacht Captain 1 and a
second person
onboard with at least a Yacht Captain 3. In all other
cases the rules
are violated and the insurance might not cover.

There are no such requirements for yachts < 15 meters

So be it, we would ofcourse get the required exams
should we buy the
Mango we currently are looking at. However our
concerns do not stop
there. We have been told that harbour prices become
much more
expensive as soon as the yacht is > 15 meters. Is this
true? And what
about the ongoing costs of maintaining a Mango? How
much should we
roughly count on spending on ordinary maintenance?

Basically what we are unclear about is whether the
extra 6 feet the
Mango has on the Maramu are worth the extra bother,
rules, red tape
and costs. Given that we would use the yacht for blue
water cruising
and hopefully long trips to far away places, we have
these following
questions in mind:

Is the living space in the Mango that much larger than
in a Maramu?
Is the comfort - both the day to day living comfort as
well as the
sailing experience - better in the Mango?
Are there other particular issues with having a yacht
15 meters,
which we should know about and consider?
Essentially is the Mango that much better than the
Maramu that all
the extra hassle is well worth it?

We fully realise that we are asking questions that
only can be
answered subjectively. However we would appreciate
your opinions,
thoughts and knowledge as we are only beginning to
venture into the
world of blue water cruising and have therefore very
little practical
experience with these matters.

Kindest regards and safe winds,

Christina and Lars
Denmark



---------------------------------
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cjcolclough <cjcolclough@...>
 

Dear Luiz - dear all

Firstly thank you for your replies to us - they are very helpful. The
Mango we are looking at was originally Amel's own. It has therefore
some extra specs, which are worth looking at. Most importantly it has
a bow thruster, a 100 hp engine and electric furling.

We originally wanted to ask the group what their opinions on the
difference between a Maramu (not a Super Maramu) and a Mango are.
Especially because the Maramu is below 15 meters LOA and therefore
not subject to the same legal conditions as both the SM and the Mango.

However, going back to your latest email. We are slightly unclear
about your average expenditure. Do you mean that you EVERY YEAR spend
5-8% of the boat's value on maintenance? This sounds like a lot to
us - and pretty worrying in the long run.

Basically our concern with buying the Mango is whether we will end up
with a yacht that costs far more to keep and use than a Maramu, at
the same time as it offers only slightly more volume and comfort.

Again thank you all for any thoughts on these matters,

best regards,
christina and lars/ Denmark


Luis Gonzalez Vallejo <l_gonzalezvallejo@...>
 

Dear Christine,
I have not information on the difference between a Mango and Maramu.The maintenance cost as I said are cheaper than for any similar boat.The 5-8% is only applied if you have to replace major equipment.
Regards
Luis

cjcolclough <cjcolclough@...> wrote:
Dear Luiz - dear all

Firstly thank you for your replies to us - they are very helpful. The
Mango we are looking at was originally Amel's own. It has therefore
some extra specs, which are worth looking at. Most importantly it has
a bow thruster, a 100 hp engine and electric furling.

We originally wanted to ask the group what their opinions on the
difference between a Maramu (not a Super Maramu) and a Mango are.
Especially because the Maramu is below 15 meters LOA and therefore
not subject to the same legal conditions as both the SM and the Mango.

However, going back to your latest email. We are slightly unclear
about your average expenditure. Do you mean that you EVERY YEAR spend
5-8% of the boat's value on maintenance? This sounds like a lot to
us - and pretty worrying in the long run.

Basically our concern with buying the Mango is whether we will end up
with a yacht that costs far more to keep and use than a Maramu, at
the same time as it offers only slightly more volume and comfort.

Again thank you all for any thoughts on these matters,

best regards,
christina and lars/ Denmark





---------------------------------
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