Date
1 - 15 of 15
[Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis
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kimberlite@...
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Thanks Derick. I guess that's the one labeled Prise AR. Interesting, Bill. I have 3 24-12 transformers too. One is for the 12v instruments at the nav station, the AM/FM/CD player, and the cigarette lighter receptacles. The second is for the SSB. Both of those are after the battery switch. The third one marked Permanent gets its power before the battery switch, so is powered all the time. I don't know what it feeds yet...will have to track it down. Thanks, Kent On Feb 2, 2015, at 7:40 PM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: Kent, There are actually three Permanent 24 to 12 transformers on BeBe behind the lower right door at the nav station. 1 - VHF 2 - Instruments 3 - 12V cigarette lighter and misc. 12 volt items at the Nav table. including the anchor chain counter Bill BeBe 387 On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 5:21 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
Kent, There are actually three Permanent 24 to 12 transformers on BeBe behind the lower right door at the nav station. 1 - VHF 2 - Instruments 3 - 12V cigarette lighter and misc. 12 volt items at the Nav table. including the anchor chain counter Bill BeBe 387 On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 5:21 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Aha! Thanks Bill. What does that "Permanent" stepdown transformer feed? The + wire to the permanent stepdown transformer is the only one I see that is attached to the main service battery switch on the positive battery side of the switch. I was surprised that the bilge pump wasn't connected there too. I'd never checked before, but the bilge pump doesn't work when the battery switch is off. So I guess the permanent transformer is the only thing that is powered when the battery switch is off? Is there a place that tells what these other equipments are that don't go through the 24v panel? I know where most of the breakers are that go to the winches, heads, anchor wash, windlass, thruster, furlers, etc. They are all dependent on a breaker on the 24V panel. I don't know where the breaker is for the aft lazarette receptacle for the dinghy inflator??? I've found 24 V between the bonding system and the Positive battery pole. I think that means there is a connection somewhere between a negative wire and the bonding system. It carries 0.8amps with all 24v panel breakers off. My next project is to disconnect all the negative wires at their equipment. If the connection between the battery negative and bonding is not at the pump or motor, but somewhere between battery and the equipment, I don't think I'll find it by disconnecting neg from equipment. Then what??? Thanks to all! Kent SM243 Kristy On Feb 2, 2015, at 4:45 PM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: Kent, There are many loads that do not go through the 24 volt breaker panel and the "Permanent" 24 to 12 volt step-down transformers are one example. The breaker for these is inside the wet locker...additionally, and I am fairly sure, that this breaker remains HOT with the battery switches turned OFF. Bill BeBe 387 On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 1:30 PM, karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
Kent, There are many loads that do not go through the 24 volt breaker panel and the "Permanent" 24 to 12 volt step-down transformers are one example. The breaker for these is inside the wet locker...additionally, and I am fairly sure, that this breaker remains HOT with the battery switches turned OFF. Bill BeBe 387 On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 1:30 PM, karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Hi again, all,
another question: Are there any permanent loads on the 24V system that don't go through the 24V panel. On some schematics I found something called "permanent" on the 24V system that doesn't appear to be on the 24V panel and doesn't have a breaker on it in the schematic. Thanks, Kent SM243 Kristy |
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Olivier Beaute
Good afternoon Kent, I guess your mechanic, after a few months, will remember what he did to undo the transmission. Important: -secure the new lower unit onto the ballast with a new rubber sleeve, cover the bolt with black silicone filler -the engine alignment with the upper unit must be checked -depending on their condition/running hours, it may be good to take the opportunity for replacing the steel frame rubber mounts -connect the C-drive box to the engine steel frame, check that the steel frame is connected to the zincs (in fact check the resistance between rudder zincs and the propeller, it should be around zero ohm). Once the C-drive is installed and running, make sure there is no power of any kind on it, as it is originally. If there is a leak, it must be found and neutralized... Bon courage. Olivier. On Thursday, January 29, 2015 8:58 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote: Thanks, Gary. I'll pass this along to Mike. Makes sense to me. I will be assisting/observing the refitting of the CDrive and Yanmar in February. I'll post pics and a description of the process when it's all in and I've done a sea trial to make sure it's water tight. Olivier, do you have any words of wisdom about either of these topics? Thanks and Merci, Kent From: amelliahona To: amelyachtowners@... Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis Hi Kent: I have never seen a diagram of the "bonding" system. (yellow/green wires to sacrificial anodes). As to your other question, as to why the bonding system isn't tied to the battery -ve (negative) post. I can postulate this theory. The bonding system is a protective system designed to carry any stray current/leak current and any galvanically induced current to the sacrificial electrodes. Amel wanted the DC circuits to be isolated from protective system as those circuits have current flowing thru them any time a DC circuit is in use. Those circuits should stand on their own, ideally isolated from the bonding circuit and not having leakage current as the electrical componentry normally is "insulated" from that part of the appliance that is in contact with seawater. In this way the protective circuit only comes into play when there is leakage current from a DC device (due to a fault) or if there is a galvanically induced current from two dissimilar metals (thru hulls etc) and the anodes. . Remember the case or fitting of any metal object in contact with sea water is tied to the bonding system. The alternator isn't in contact with sea water. Its electrical componentry should stand on it's own and in the Amel strategy the electrical componentry should be isolated electrically from the engine. If you tie the bonding system and the DC battery negative together you put the protective circuit "on line" with all DC circuits all the time. Additionally you now provide a parallel pathway for EMF in the seawater (perhaps from a nearby boat with an electrical fault) to push current via the bonding system, into the DC system where it seeks ground at the battery (electrically we say sinks to ground at -ve). The DC negative should NOT be connected to the bonding system. The DC circuits and the bonding circuits should be separate circuits. Again, not sure I clarified or muddied the waters. If muddied, let me know and I will try again. If you get a minute, I for one would be interested in how the C-drive mounts and penetrates the hull etc. (new topic of course). All the best, Gary Silver s/v Liahona
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kimberlite@...
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Thanks, Gary. I'll pass this along to Mike. Makes sense to me. I will be assisting/observing the refitting of the CDrive and Yanmar in February. I'll post pics and a description of the process when it's all in and I've done a sea trial to make sure it's water tight. Olivier, do you have any words of wisdom about either of these topics? Thanks and Merci, Kent From: amelliahona To: amelyachtowners@... Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis Hi Kent: I have never seen a diagram of the "bonding" system. (yellow/green wires to sacrificial anodes). As to your other question, as to why the bonding system isn't tied to the battery -ve (negative) post. I can postulate this theory. The bonding system is a protective system designed to carry any stray current/leak current and any galvanically induced current to the sacrificial electrodes. Amel wanted the DC circuits to be isolated from protective system as those circuits have current flowing thru them any time a DC circuit is in use. Those circuits should stand on their own, ideally isolated from the bonding circuit and not having leakage current as the electrical componentry normally is "insulated" from that part of the appliance that is in contact with seawater. In this way the protective circuit only comes into play when there is leakage current from a DC device (due to a fault) or if there is a galvanically induced current from two dissimilar metals (thru hulls etc) and the anodes. . Remember the case or fitting of any metal object in contact with sea water is tied to the bonding system. The alternator isn't in contact with sea water. Its electrical componentry should stand on it's own and in the Amel strategy the electrical componentry should be isolated electrically from the engine. If you tie the bonding system and the DC battery negative together you put the protective circuit "on line" with all DC circuits all the time. Additionally you now provide a parallel pathway for EMF in the seawater (perhaps from a nearby boat with an electrical fault) to push current via the bonding system, into the DC system where it seeks ground at the battery (electrically we say sinks to ground at -ve). The DC negative should NOT be connected to the bonding system. The DC circuits and the bonding circuits should be separate circuits. Again, not sure I clarified or muddied the waters. If muddied, let me know and I will try again. If you get a minute, I for one would be interested in how the C-drive mounts and penetrates the hull etc. (new topic of course). All the best, Gary Silver s/v Liahona
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amelliahona <no_reply@...>
Hi Kent:
I have never seen a diagram of the "bonding" system. (yellow/green wires to sacrificial anodes). As to your other question, as to why the bonding system isn't tied to the battery -ve (negative) post. I can postulate this theory. The bonding system is a protective system designed to carry any stray current/leak current and any galvanically induced current to the sacrificial electrodes. Amel wanted the DC circuits to be isolated from protective system as those circuits have current flowing thru them any time a DC circuit is in use. Those circuits should stand on their own, ideally isolated from the bonding circuit and not having leakage current as the electrical componentry normally is "insulated" from that part of the appliance that is in contact with seawater. In this way the protective circuit only comes into play when there is leakage current from a DC device (due to a fault) or if there is a galvanically induced current from two dissimilar metals (thru hulls etc) and the anodes. . Remember the case or fitting of any metal object in contact with sea water is tied to the bonding system. The alternator isn't in contact with sea water. Its electrical componentry should stand on it's own and in the Amel strategy the electrical componentry should be isolated electrically from the engine. If you tie the bonding system and the DC battery negative together you put the protective circuit "on line" with all DC circuits all the time. Additionally you now provide a parallel pathway for EMF in the seawater (perhaps from a nearby boat with an electrical fault) to push current via the bonding system, into the DC system where it seeks ground at the battery (electrically we say sinks to ground at -ve). The DC negative should NOT be connected to the bonding system. The DC circuits and the bonding circuits should be separate circuits. Again, not sure I clarified or muddied the waters. If muddied, let me know and I will try again. If you get a minute, I for one would be interested in how the C-drive mounts and penetrates the hull etc. (new topic of course). All the best, Gary Silver s/v Liahona |
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Thank you all again for your interest and help in finding the cause of my electrolysis.
My electrical engineer (Mike Harrison in case anyone is in need of this kind of help in the Fernandina Beach, FL area) asked me to inquire the following: 1. Does anyone have electrical schematics that include the bonding system? 2. "Can you ask them why Amel wanted to keep the engine isolated from Battery Negative, rather than bonded to it? I can see the benefits of not having the alternator and starter currents flowing through the engine, but as the engine is part of the Corrosion Bonding System because of the seawater connection at the propeller, it could be helpful to have it ‘grounded’ to Battery Negative. Why the need to isolate the engine?" Thanks again, Kent SM243 Kristy |
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Merci beaucoup, Olivier! We were beginning to understand this but it wasn't perfectly clear. It is great to have it clearly explained. I will send this on to Mike...I'm sure the problem lies in one or both of these systems. Thank you again for your valuable input, it's like gold! Kent On Jan 28, 2015, at 3:38 AM, Beaute Olivier atlanticyachtsurvey@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: Good morning Kent, what lies in you very long message makes me think that your electrician knows what he's talking about. Some combined inverters/chargers have internally a connection between the negative DC and their metal body. This is why you want to measure the resistance between negative DC and "corrosion bonding system". This resistance must be infinite (no connection). Amel never installed inverters/chargers (in the same device) on purpose. The second spot you may have a problem is on your new engine: With the DC ON (12V and 24V), there must not be any power (+12, -12, +24,-24) on the engine's body, while the engine is running and while it is OFF. Only for a few seconds (pre-heating plugs, starting and stopping) the 12V negative is connected to the engine's body through a solenoid switch. Other than that, the engine's body must be isolated from the 12V negative. All engines are not designed/connected like that. Your engine's wiring must be an isolated one. The alternators too. I'm sure you're on the way to find the fault. Best regards. Olivier On Tuesday, January 27, 2015 10:42 PM, "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: Kent, I think the suggestion to use a small bulb is to ensure that the voltage measured by a meter continues. Using a bulb will remove any capacitance (stored electricity)...you could also remove any stored electricity by touching the two poles that you are measuring together. I wish I could help more, but it sounds like your electrician will find your problem. Bill BeBe 387 On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 2:52 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Olivier Beaute
Good morning Kent, what lies in you very long message makes me think that your electrician knows what he's talking about. Some combined inverters/chargers have internally a connection between the negative DC and their metal body. This is why you want to measure the resistance between negative DC and "corrosion bonding system". This resistance must be infinite (no connection). Amel never installed inverters/chargers (in the same device) on purpose. The second spot you may have a problem is on your new engine: With the DC ON (12V and 24V), there must not be any power (+12, -12, +24,-24) on the engine's body, while the engine is running and while it is OFF. Only for a few seconds (pre-heating plugs, starting and stopping) the 12V negative is connected to the engine's body through a solenoid switch. Other than that, the engine's body must be isolated from the 12V negative. All engines are not designed/connected like that. Your engine's wiring must be an isolated one. The alternators too. I'm sure you're on the way to find the fault. Best regards. Olivier On Tuesday, January 27, 2015 10:42 PM, "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote: Kent, I think the suggestion to use a small bulb is to ensure that the voltage measured by a meter continues. Using a bulb will remove any capacitance (stored electricity)...you could also remove any stored electricity by touching the two poles that you are measuring together. I wish I could help more, but it sounds like your electrician will find your problem. Bill BeBe 387 On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 2:52 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
Kent, I think the suggestion to use a small bulb is to ensure that the voltage measured by a meter continues. Using a bulb will remove any capacitance (stored electricity)...you could also remove any stored electricity by touching the two poles that you are measuring together. I wish I could help more, but it sounds like your electrician will find your problem. Bill BeBe 387 On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 2:52 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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We're not sure yet, Alan. It's not the negative DC, but the one drawing we could find shows it connecting to the AC ground as well as the bonding system... Kent From: "divanz620@... [amelyachtowners]" To: amelyachtowners@... Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 3:09 PM Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Prop Shaft Electrolysis Wow, thats a lot of info.... The ground on the Sterling device is it just a ground for the metal case or is it the actual DC negative ?? If it is the negative and its connected to the boning system and / or the AC ground, that could well be the cause of your problem. Sounds like Mike knows what he's doing.... Good luck Alan SV Elyse SM437 Gulf Harbour
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