[Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Repower
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Ric Gottschalk <ric@...>
Steve, I still have my Perkins Prima 50HP. I would be interested parts of your engine or the whole engine.. In particular the starter and solenoid, heat exchanger and exhaust etc. Both of these could be rebuilt if needed in Annapolis. I am looking for spares. You can contact me direct at Ric@.... My daughter graduated from Flagler, so I am used to dropping money off All the best Ric, SN24 Bali Hai - Annapolis
From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 11:17 AM To: amelyachtowners@... Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Repower
Hey Dave,
Thanks for the input on the engine, but we have already bought a new Yanmar, and are hoping we get it in the boat this week.
I agree with most everything you are saying, and it was a tough choice to make on the engine. We did look at Volvo, Yanmar, Beta Marine, and John Deere. The Perkins Prima in the boat now has the same width on the feet as the Yanmar, but a 75hp Beta Marine was about 4" wider, and I was trying to avoid a major re-engineering of the boat. Another downside to the Beta is the weight. The 80hp Yanmar is 505#, and the Beta is over 900# for a 75hp model. Our boat is already stern heavy in the water, and I hated to add that much weight aft of the CG. With all that said, I really like the simplicity of the Beta Marine, but just could not risk the problems mentioned.
Our new Yanmar does have an electronic control module, but other than that, it is the Yanmar you are used to. I've convinced myself that every car I have driven for years has an ECM, and they tend to be quite reliable. Ultimately, all the marine engines in the US will be going this way soon, as they will have to comply with EPA Tier 3 emission standards in a couple of years. On the good side, this engine will run smoothly, make less noise, burn less fuel, and not put black soot on the side of my hull. Also, I have purchased the NMEA 2000 module, and will be able to see precise fuel flow, fuel totalizer, and other engine parameters on my new multi-function display.
Hope all is well in the sail making business, and thanks again for your input.
Steve and Liz Aloha SM72 Re-Powering in St Augustine
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Stephen Davis
Hey Dave, Thanks for the input on the engine, but we have already bought a new Yanmar, and are hoping we get it in the boat this week. I agree with most everything you are saying, and it was a tough choice to make on the engine. We did look at Volvo, Yanmar, Beta Marine, and John Deere. The Perkins Prima in the boat now has the same width on the feet as the Yanmar, but a 75hp Beta Marine was about 4" wider, and I was trying to avoid a major re-engineering of the boat. Another downside to the Beta is the weight. The 80hp Yanmar is 505#, and the Beta is over 900# for a 75hp model. Our boat is already stern heavy in the water, and I hated to add that much weight aft of the CG. With all that said, I really like the simplicity of the Beta Marine, but just could not risk the problems mentioned. Our new Yanmar does have an electronic control module, but other than that, it is the Yanmar you are used to. I've convinced myself that every car I have driven for years has an ECM, and they tend to be quite reliable. Ultimately, all the marine engines in the US will be going this way soon, as they will have to comply with EPA Tier 3 emission standards in a couple of years. On the good side, this engine will run smoothly, make less noise, burn less fuel, and not put black soot on the side of my hull. Also, I have purchased the NMEA 2000 module, and will be able to see precise fuel flow, fuel totalizer, and other engine parameters on my new multi-function display. Hope all is well in the sail making business, and thanks again for your input. Steve and Liz Aloha SM72 Re-Powering in St Augustine On Jul 14, 2015, at 13:59, dave_benjamin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Dave_Benjamin
Hi Steve and Liz,
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One of my friends who re-powered a Maramu found that Beta Marine was far more helpful than Yanmar when it came to meeting his requirements. So you may want to check with them to see if their Kubota based engine is a better solution than Yanmar. Kubota parts are quite easy to find as they are widely used in agricultural and industrial applications. While I am generally quite positive about Yanmar, I don't know if I would buy one of the ones they sell now. Should some electronics fail, you could be stranded quite some time waiting for replacements. The Yanmar we had in Exit Strategy (Maramu #29) was installed about 10 years ago and that generation did not rely so much on electronics. Even my mechanic, who knows a great deal about Yanmar, isn't too keen on their latest. I'm no expert on the Beta, but I don't think their engines are so reliant on electronics. ---In amelyachtowners@..., <flyboyscd@...> wrote : Hey Richard, We are about to order the new Yanmar for Aloha, and are finding Yanmar USA not helpful regarding the isolation issues. For example, they will not provide isolated ground alternators without a 4 month lead time. The alternators are not a problem, as I can provide my own, but they also seem unable to provide isolated sensors and such. I guess my question is where does one get all the required components to isolate the engine, if the engine manufacturer can't provide them? On another note, a very nice dual alternator pulley and bracket kit can be provided by Electromax in Ontario, Canada for $560.00. The kit will fit the 80hp Yanmar which we are buying, or the 110hp which shares the same block. I previously purchase an alternator and watermaker from Electromax, and have found them to be great people to work with. Regarding Kent's CDrive issues, I have to wonder how much of the problem was a result of the lack of isolation of the engine since that has been corrected, and he seems to still have issues with the prop zinc disappearing. Some of the problems seem incredibly difficult to track down. Congratulations on a successful delivery across the pond, and welcome back. Regards, Steve and Liz Davis Aloha SM72 Hauled in St Augustine, Fl On Jun 26, 2015, at 11:19, Richard03801 richard03801@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Hi Eric, yes, I got the pics, thanks. Look farther down in the files section under "KitIsolationYanmar" for some reason the file didn't post in the folder. I'll try to fix that when I get the isolation completed and post more pics and description. Should be done next week. Kent On Jul 8, 2015, at 12:06 AM, sailormon kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Hi Kent The link did not open and I do not see it in the fils section. Did you get my photos? Fair Winds Eric Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376
From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
It's posted in the Files section, Eric.
Kent
Hi Kent, Would you please send me a copy of the isolation schematics ? Fair Winds Eric Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376
From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
The 12v alternator that came on my Yanmar110 has a ground wire, but it is grounded to the block. I think I will be able to use it. The 24v alternator that was in the old Volvo is also an isolated ground, but has been grounded to the non-isolated Yanmar ground wire thus far. Once I get the harness built, install the new switches, senders, and solenoids, both alternators and the senders will be grounded back to the negative on the battery side of the solenoid. The solenoid will make the connection of the engine block to the negative battery post only when the engine is cranked or when the STOP button is pushed. When the engine is stopped or running, the connection is interrupted by the solenoid. It'll make more sense when I get the isolation schematics to you. Good luck, Kent SM243 Kristy
Thanks Kent. You are a wealth of knowledge on this subject, and a great resource for the group. I'm curious, is your alternator an isolated ground alternator? Also, what gadget do you have to measure hull potential, as I need one. I will admit that your experience has scared me a bit.
On another subject, do you happen to know the pitch marks for your max prop? I've got the same prop, and suspect I'll need to adjust the pitch for the higher revving Yanmar.
Steve and Liz Aloha SM72
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sailormon <kimberlite@...>
Hi Kent The link did not open and I do not see it in the fils section. Did you get my photos? Fair Winds Eric Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376
From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 8:24 AM To: amelyachtowners@... Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Repower
It's posted in the Files section, Eric.
Kent
Hi Kent, Would you please send me a copy of the isolation schematics ? Fair Winds Eric Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376
From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
The 12v alternator that came on my Yanmar110 has a ground wire, but it is grounded to the block. I think I will be able to use it. The 24v alternator that was in the old Volvo is also an isolated ground, but has been grounded to the non-isolated Yanmar ground wire thus far. Once I get the harness built, install the new switches, senders, and solenoids, both alternators and the senders will be grounded back to the negative on the battery side of the solenoid. The solenoid will make the connection of the engine block to the negative battery post only when the engine is cranked or when the STOP button is pushed. When the engine is stopped or running, the connection is interrupted by the solenoid. It'll make more sense when I get the isolation schematics to you. Good luck, Kent SM243 Kristy
Thanks Kent. You are a wealth of knowledge on this subject, and a great resource for the group. I'm curious, is your alternator an isolated ground alternator? Also, what gadget do you have to measure hull potential, as I need one. I will admit that your experience has scared me a bit.
On another subject, do you happen to know the pitch marks for your max prop? I've got the same prop, and suspect I'll need to adjust the pitch for the higher revving Yanmar.
Steve and Liz Aloha SM72
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It's posted in the Files section, Eric. Kent On Jul 6, 2015, at 4:06 AM, sailormon kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Hi Kent, Would you please send me a copy of the isolation schematics ? Fair Winds Eric Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376
From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
The 12v alternator that came on my Yanmar110 has a ground wire, but it is grounded to the block. I think I will be able to use it. The 24v alternator that was in the old Volvo is also an isolated ground, but has been grounded to the non-isolated Yanmar ground wire thus far. Once I get the harness built, install the new switches, senders, and solenoids, both alternators and the senders will be grounded back to the negative on the battery side of the solenoid. The solenoid will make the connection of the engine block to the negative battery post only when the engine is cranked or when the STOP button is pushed. When the engine is stopped or running, the connection is interrupted by the solenoid. It'll make more sense when I get the isolation schematics to you. Good luck, Kent SM243 Kristy
Thanks Kent. You are a wealth of knowledge on this subject, and a great resource for the group. I'm curious, is your alternator an isolated ground alternator? Also, what gadget do you have to measure hull potential, as I need one. I will admit that your experience has scared me a bit.
On another subject, do you happen to know the pitch marks for your max prop? I've got the same prop, and suspect I'll need to adjust the pitch for the higher revving Yanmar.
Steve and Liz Aloha SM72
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sailormon <kimberlite@...>
Hi Kent, Would you please send me a copy of the isolation schematics ? Fair Winds Eric Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376
From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2015 2:10 PM To: amelyachtowners@... Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Repower
The 12v alternator that came on my Yanmar110 has a ground wire, but it is grounded to the block. I think I will be able to use it. The 24v alternator that was in the old Volvo is also an isolated ground, but has been grounded to the non-isolated Yanmar ground wire thus far. Once I get the harness built, install the new switches, senders, and solenoids, both alternators and the senders will be grounded back to the negative on the battery side of the solenoid. The solenoid will make the connection of the engine block to the negative battery post only when the engine is cranked or when the STOP button is pushed. When the engine is stopped or running, the connection is interrupted by the solenoid. It'll make more sense when I get the isolation schematics to you. Good luck, Kent SM243 Kristy
Thanks Kent. You are a wealth of knowledge on this subject, and a great resource for the group. I'm curious, is your alternator an isolated ground alternator? Also, what gadget do you have to measure hull potential, as I need one. I will admit that your experience has scared me a bit.
On another subject, do you happen to know the pitch marks for your max prop? I've got the same prop, and suspect I'll need to adjust the pitch for the higher revving Yanmar.
Steve and Liz Aloha SM72
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Richard03801 <richard03801@...>
Yep back in Newport. Yes we had a coupling failure on the way to Malta 3 of the 4 pins broke. Between there and Boston we put about 500 hours on the Yanmar with no issues. We did a good deal of motor sailing given light winds and a very weak battery bank. Our burn rate at 1200 was 2 liters per hour clean bottom and new auto prop. Fair Winds Smooth Sailing To All Capt Richard RP Yacht Brokerage Newport RI We list sell and service fine yachts including Amel's Cell 603 767 5330 On Jun 26, 2015, at 11:24, Germain Jean-Pierre jgermain@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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If you are getting the 80 HP, the MaxProp setting should be similar to the old Perkins or my old Volvo, I think. There was a significant difference between the Volvo78 and the Yanmar110. I'll get them to you next week, too, when I get back to the boat. Kent SM243 Kristy On Jun 26, 2015, at 12:53 PM, Steve Davis flyboyscd@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Thanks Kent. You are a wealth of knowledge on this subject, and a great resource for the group. I'm curious, is your alternator an isolated ground alternator? Also, what gadget do you have to measure hull potential, as I need one. I will admit that your experience has scared me a bit. On another subject, do you happen to know the pitch marks for your max prop? I've got the same prop, and suspect I'll need to adjust the pitch for the higher revving Yanmar. Steve and Liz Aloha SM72 On Jun 26, 2015, at 12:36, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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The 12v alternator that came on my Yanmar110 has a ground wire, but it is grounded to the block. I think I will be able to use it. The 24v alternator that was in the old Volvo is also an isolated ground, but has been grounded to the non-isolated Yanmar ground wire thus far. Once I get the harness built, install the new switches, senders, and solenoids, both alternators and the senders will be grounded back to the negative on the battery side of the solenoid. The solenoid will make the connection of the engine block to the negative battery post only when the engine is cranked or when the STOP button is pushed. When the engine is stopped or running, the connection is interrupted by the solenoid. It'll make more sense when I get the isolation schematics to you. Good luck, Kent SM243 Kristy On Jun 26, 2015, at 12:53 PM, Steve Davis flyboyscd@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Thanks Kent. You are a wealth of knowledge on this subject, and a great resource for the group. I'm curious, is your alternator an isolated ground alternator? Also, what gadget do you have to measure hull potential, as I need one. I will admit that your experience has scared me a bit. On another subject, do you happen to know the pitch marks for your max prop? I've got the same prop, and suspect I'll need to adjust the pitch for the higher revving Yanmar. Steve and Liz Aloha SM72 On Jun 26, 2015, at 12:36, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Oops, end of my post didn't come through. The schematics on how to isolate ground are in French, but Maud says basically that any electrician worth his salt should be able to figure it out. (-: I purchased an isolation "Kit" from Amel for 800 Euros that included only the schematic, a temp switch, an oil pressure switch, two solenoids, and three diodes. I still have to make my own harness and find the isolated grounds senders for my gauges. On Jun 26, 2015, at 12:45 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Steve, Isolating the Yanmar has been a hair-pulling experience...as much because isolated sensors are difficult to match. Ask Yanmar if the sensors are the same for the 80HP and 110HP. If not, look on the sides of the hex nut that is used to tighten the sensors and get the numbers stamped there. That may be the only way to determine the specs of the sensors, because Yanmar will not give you that information. You'll need senders for the gauges, too. Find the make and model of the gauge and contact them about isolated ground senders. I will send you a schematic that Amel sent to me about how to isolate your engine. It's in French, but On Jun 26, 2015, at 12:34 PM, Steve Davis flyboyscd@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: Hey Richard, We are about to order the new Yanmar for Aloha, and are finding Yanmar USA not helpful regarding the isolation issues. For example, they will not provide isolated ground alternators without a 4 month lead time. The alternators are not a problem, as I can provide my own, but they also seem unable to provide isolated sensors and such. I guess my question is where does one get all the required components to isolate the engine, if the engine manufacturer can't provide them? On another note, a very nice dual alternator pulley and bracket kit can be provided by Electromax in Ontario, Canada for $560.00. The kit will fit the 80hp Yanmar which we are buying, or the 110hp which shares the same block. I previously purchase an alternator and watermaker from Electromax, and have found them to be great people to work with. Regarding Kent's CDrive issues, I have to wonder how much of the problem was a result of the lack of isolation of the engine since that has been corrected, and he seems to still have issues with the prop zinc disappearing. Some of the problems seem incredibly difficult to track down. Congratulations on a successful delivery across the pond, and welcome back. Regards, Steve and Liz Davis Aloha SM72 Hauled in St Augustine, Fl On Jun 26, 2015, at 11:19, Richard03801 richard03801@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Stephen Davis
Thanks again Kent. All greatly appreciated. Steve On Jun 26, 2015, at 12:45, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Stephen Davis
Thanks Kent. You are a wealth of knowledge on this subject, and a great resource for the group. I'm curious, is your alternator an isolated ground alternator? Also, what gadget do you have to measure hull potential, as I need one. I will admit that your experience has scared me a bit. On another subject, do you happen to know the pitch marks for your max prop? I've got the same prop, and suspect I'll need to adjust the pitch for the higher revving Yanmar. Steve and Liz Aloha SM72 On Jun 26, 2015, at 12:36, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Steve, Isolating the Yanmar has been a hair-pulling experience...as much because isolated sensors are difficult to match. Ask Yanmar if the sensors are the same for the 80HP and 110HP. If not, look on the sides of the hex nut that is used to tighten the sensors and get the numbers stamped there. That may be the only way to determine the specs of the sensors, because Yanmar will not give you that information. You'll need senders for the gauges, too. Find the make and model of the gauge and contact them about isolated ground senders. I will send you a schematic that Amel sent to me about how to isolate your engine. It's in French, but On Jun 26, 2015, at 12:34 PM, Steve Davis flyboyscd@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Hey Richard, We are about to order the new Yanmar for Aloha, and are finding Yanmar USA not helpful regarding the isolation issues. For example, they will not provide isolated ground alternators without a 4 month lead time. The alternators are not a problem, as I can provide my own, but they also seem unable to provide isolated sensors and such. I guess my question is where does one get all the required components to isolate the engine, if the engine manufacturer can't provide them? On another note, a very nice dual alternator pulley and bracket kit can be provided by Electromax in Ontario, Canada for $560.00. The kit will fit the 80hp Yanmar which we are buying, or the 110hp which shares the same block. I previously purchase an alternator and watermaker from Electromax, and have found them to be great people to work with. Regarding Kent's CDrive issues, I have to wonder how much of the problem was a result of the lack of isolation of the engine since that has been corrected, and he seems to still have issues with the prop zinc disappearing. Some of the problems seem incredibly difficult to track down. Congratulations on a successful delivery across the pond, and welcome back. Regards, Steve and Liz Davis Aloha SM72 Hauled in St Augustine, Fl On Jun 26, 2015, at 11:19, Richard03801 richard03801@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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It's my understanding that it shouldn't cause a problem unless there is a fault in the engine's electrical system. If there is, it can eat up your zincs almost overnight, then start working on the CDrive. In my case I hauled out to paint the bottom, and discovered the prop zinc gone and rudder zincs almost gone. While changing the prop shaft seals I discovered the shaft was about 1/3 eaten away as if a blow torch had been used on it. I discovered a poorly installed charger/inverter that also had a fault, and poorly connected bonding system when I repowered with a Yanmar a few years ago. I didn't understand the Amel grounding systems well enough at that time and the Yanmar was not isolated as Amel recommends. I felt certain that the cause of my shaft problem was the charger/inverter and/or poorly bonded CDrive after re powering. Isolating the new Yanmar is more complicated than it should be, and all hull potential readings were normal, so I elected to do the isolation later when I had all the necessary parts assembled. After being back in the water only 5 weeks, I dove on the prop and discovered that the zincs were half gone. This was in spite of all hull potential readings being in the "safe" range...but I never checked hull potential with the Yanmar or ONAN running. When I get back to the boat next week, I expect to find a faulty alternator on the Yanmar. If not, I'll let you know what I do find. If that's what it is, the fault is grounded to the bonding system and would have destroyed my prop shaft again! Before going back in the water I will have the Yanmar electrically isolated. I will check hull potential monthly and weekly when on the dock with both the Yanmar and ONAN running, the AC on, and the DC chargers running. I won't stay connected to shore power unless I am on the boat. I understand that the Amel system of isolating the bonding system from all AC and DC systems is what is done with metal-hulled boats, but can't confirm that. It makes a lot more sense to me that that ABYC system of connecting all AC and DC systems to the bonding system. It's another way that Capn Amel has good reason for designing his boats as he did. Don't make changes without fully understanding why your boat is designed as it is. More in a week or so! Kent SM243 Kristy On Jun 26, 2015, at 11:19 AM, Richard03801 richard03801@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Take a look at posts Kent has on this site. Not isolating the engine will over a very short time cause a issues with the Amel drive and engine. The old saying an once of prevention. Fair Winds Smooth Sailing To All Capt Richard RP Yacht Brokerage Newport RI We list sell and service fine yachts including Amel's Cell 603 767 5330
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Stephen Davis
Hey Richard, We are about to order the new Yanmar for Aloha, and are finding Yanmar USA not helpful regarding the isolation issues. For example, they will not provide isolated ground alternators without a 4 month lead time. The alternators are not a problem, as I can provide my own, but they also seem unable to provide isolated sensors and such. I guess my question is where does one get all the required components to isolate the engine, if the engine manufacturer can't provide them? On another note, a very nice dual alternator pulley and bracket kit can be provided by Electromax in Ontario, Canada for $560.00. The kit will fit the 80hp Yanmar which we are buying, or the 110hp which shares the same block. I previously purchase an alternator and watermaker from Electromax, and have found them to be great people to work with. Regarding Kent's CDrive issues, I have to wonder how much of the problem was a result of the lack of isolation of the engine since that has been corrected, and he seems to still have issues with the prop zinc disappearing. Some of the problems seem incredibly difficult to track down. Congratulations on a successful delivery across the pond, and welcome back. Regards, Steve and Liz Davis Aloha SM72 Hauled in St Augustine, Fl On Jun 26, 2015, at 11:19, Richard03801 richard03801@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Germain Jean-Pierre <jgermain@...>
Hi Richard,
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Back in RI?? How many hours of sailing/engine did you do on the SM you moved from Goček? Saw you had issues in Malta… Cheers, Jean-Pierre Germain SY Eleuthera, SM 007
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Richard03801 <richard03801@...>
Take a look at posts Kent has on this site. Not isolating the engine will over a very short time cause a issues with the Amel drive and engine. The old saying an once of prevention. Fair Winds Smooth Sailing To All Capt Richard RP Yacht Brokerage Newport RI We list sell and service fine yachts including Amel's Cell 603 767 5330 On Jun 26, 2015, at 07:51, alex.paquin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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