[Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Water maker


Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Keith,

Maybe I misunderstood your earlier email where you said, "...water is pumped through the system and out through the hull..." The pressure valve is designed to increase pressure to the outside of the membranes by restricting the outflow...thus increasing pressure. It is actually very simple. 

I would not run the water maker until you find the source of the problem which could be:
  1. Source of saltwater is restricted by a closed valve, clogged prefilter(s), clogged line, supply pump (sometimes referred to as low pressure pump), not working or clogged. 
  2. Failure of the HP pump, which could be failed ceramic pistons, cracked head, or loose head (I had this "loose head" thing happen to me...bolts loosened and no pressure...tightened them up and all was good).
  3. Failure of the connection between the motor and the HP pump
  4. Dump valve stuck open (if you have this...I think newer systems do).
  5. Pressure adjustment valve not working correctly...i.e. not actually closing to increase pressure.
Some of your other questions:
Yes, a carbon filter will remove chlorine. I have seen many water maker installations with a carbon filter in-line with the flush line. I do not know why this is not standard on the Dessalator systems. The Dessalator Manual says:
"Please note that the drinking water produced by your reverse osmosis system is essentially sterile, however, your fresh water storage should be treated periodically with chlorine or iodine to ensure it remains consumable. Pay attention not to allow chlorine into the desalination system, as this could damage the device."
I am not sure how Dessalator assumes that we "not to allow chlorine into the desalination system without a carbon filter to block the chlorine.

Regarding fresh water being a problem for membranes, I disagree and don't think so...the manual states:
 The membranes should be permanently immersed in liquid, either sea water before treatment, fresh water provisionally stored or sterilizing liquid, if the desalinator is not used for extended periods of time (Sterilizer is effective for six months and must be replaced after this period of time).

I believe the two biggest enemies of the Dessalator system are:
  • Chlorine
  • Dried membranes
  • Sterilizing or Cleaning chemicals (same chemical, but Dessalator uses both terms)
  • Overdosing Sterilizing or Cleaning chemical. I think that if you absolutely have to do this, use 50% of the quantity of chemical and do not leave the chemical in the membrane tubes, but rather flush with tank water for 15 minutes. The chemical is caustic!
Flushing regularly and after each use, or a minimum of once a week---for 6 minutes, with tank water, and using a carbon filter to block any chlorine is the best thing you can do.

All that said, I am no expert. My knowledge has been gained through years of sometimes costly experience.

Bill
BeBe 387
Barcelona for a month!


On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 10:54 AM, gegcarter@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Thanks Bill (and Danny) for the responses to my questions.


Maybe the pressure valve is faulty - but I'm not sure that would explain the lack of water emerging from anywhere, pump running.  It must either go over the side (valve open) or through the membranes and into the tank (valve closed), mustn't it? It certainly was not leaking out anywhere else (which I presume would be quite dramatic to witness, at high pressure...). 

Bill, I should have discussed this with you in Malta - I could have seen your whizzy automatic flushing system too. 

Elsewhere in the forum I have seen angry comments about the 'quality' light (which is far from having relevance to me, sadly) - and on reviewing the Desallator manual I see that 'the biggest enemy of the membranes is fresh water' whilst in the Amel owners' manual we are instructed to flush with fresh water after use, and your syst em seems to be doing that.  Does the carbon filter remove chlorine, which I read is also an enemy of the membranes (which seem to have few friends)?

PS - my system is the 60l/hr one - no low-pressure pump, 'detuned' CAT pump. 

Keith

GUMA (SM 261) 



yahoogroups@...
 

Keith,

For some reason my reply to you was broken in half by something.

I will try again.

Keith,

Maybe I misunderstood your earlier email where you said, "...water is pumped through the system and out through the hull..." The pressure valve is designed to increase pressure to the outside of the membranes by restricting the outflow...thus increasing pressure. It is actually very simple. 

I would not run the water maker until you find the source of the problem which could be:
  1. Source of saltwater is restricted by a closed valve, clogged prefilter(s), clogged line, supply pump (sometimes referred to as low pressure pump), not working or clogged. 
  2. Failure of the HP pump, which could be failed ceramic pistons, cracked head, or loose head (I had this "loose head" thing happen to me...bolts loosened and no pressure...tightened them up and all was good).
  3. Failure of the connection between the motor and the HP pump
  4. Dump valve stuck open (if you have this...I think newer systems do).
  5. Pressure adjustment valve not working correctly...i.e. not actually closing to increase pressure.
Some of your other questions:
Yes, a carbon filter will remove chlorine. I have seen many water maker installations with a carbon filter in-line with the flush line. I do not know why this is not standard on the Dessalator systems. The Dessalator Manual says: "Please note that the drinking water produced by your reverse osmosis system is essentially sterile, however, your fresh water storage should be treated periodically with chlorine or iodine to ensure it remains consumable. Pay attention not to allow chlorine into the desalination system, as this could damage the device."

I am not sure how Dessalator assumes that we "not to allow chlorine into the desalination system without a carbon filter to block the chlorine.

Regarding fresh water being a problem for membranes, I disagree and don't think so...the manual states:
 The membranes should be permanently immersed in liquid, either sea water before treatment, fresh water provisionally stored or sterilizing liquid, if the desalinator is not used for extended periods of time (Sterilizer is effective for six months and must be replaced after this period of time).

I believe the two biggest enemies of the Dessalator system are:
  • Chlorine
  • Dried membranes
  • Sterilizing or Cleaning chemicals (same chemical, but Dessalator uses both terms)
  • Overdosing Sterilizing or Cleaning chemical. I think that if you absolutely have to do this, use 50% of the quantity of chemical and do not leave the chemical in the membrane tubes, but rather flush with tank water for 15 minutes. The chemical is caustic!
Flushing regularly and after each use, or a minimum of once a week---for 6 minutes, with tank water, and using a carbon filter to block any chlorine is the best thing you can do.

All that said, I am no expert. My knowledge has been gained through years of sometimes costly experience.

Bill
BeBe 387


Duane Siegfri
 

In regard to chlorine, my Owners Manual seems to allow the chlorine level in potable water: " Payattention not to allow pure chlorine (or a too high dose of chlorine) in the the desalination system, as this could damage the device."

The filters are sold for home systems to reduce the TDS and they would be subject to the chlorine in typical potable water systems.

Duane
Wanderer, #477
  
  


Ann-Sofie Svanberg <kanalmamman@...>
 

The filters will probably manage the chlorine, but the membranes doesn't. It is enough to flush the system with land water containing chlorine to destroy them.

/Annsofie
S/Y Lady Annila, Sm #232
Present at Algarve, Portugal

Skickat från min iPad

11 jul 2015 kl. 03:13 skrev sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

In regard to chlorine, my Owners Manual seems to allow the chlorine level in potable water: " Payattention not to allow pure chlorine (or a too high dose of chlorine) in the the desalination system, as this could damage the device."


The filters are sold for home systems to reduce the TDS and they would be subject to the chlorine in typical potable water systems.

Duane
Wanderer, #477
  
  


Alan Leslie
 

Chlorine kills RO membranes...period.
NEVER allow water containing chlorine in the watermaker....good idea to have an activated carbon filter before the membranes in the case that you may have put chlorinated water in your tank. The carbon filter will remove chlorine from the water.....I have 5micron carbon impregnated filters that work well.
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437 


Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Duane,

You're an engineer. What does that quoted instruction tell you?

It tells me nothing. What is the definition of "pay attention" and "too high?"  Also membranes for saltwater are different than RO membranes for your home. The saltwater membranes are constructed differently and their model numbers have a prefix of SW.

There is certainly lots of anecdotal data out here to suggest that chlorine is harmful to SW membranes, and there are lots of experienced sailors who claim that it is.

Possibly this needs to be researched because Filmtec completely changed its manufacturing process to a complete robotic assembly about 10 years ago. Prices went down and water quality went up. Possibly, they also did something about purported Chlorine vulnerability. Since there is only one manufacturer of membranes, it is probably easy to research this. Frankly, I am sticking with my anti-chlorine prejudices.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+39 333 121 8115 Italy Mobile
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail

On Jul 11, 2015 4:13 AM, "sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

In regard to chlorine, my Owners Manual seems to allow the chlorine level in potable water: "   Payattention not to allow pure chlorine (or a too high dose of chlorine) in the the desalination system, as this could damage the device."


The filters are sold for home systems to reduce the TDS and they would be subject to the chlorine in typical potable water systems.

Duane
Wanderer, #477


Alan Leslie
 

Duane / Bill

This is what Dow say about Filmtec membranes and chlorine...

The membrane shows some resistance to short-term attack by chlorine (hypochlorite). The free chlorine tolerance of the membrane is < 0.1 ppm. Continuous exposure, however, may damage the membrane and should be avoided. Under certain conditions, the presence of free chlorine and other oxidizing agents will cause premature membrane failure. Since oxidation damage is not covered under warranty, FilmTec recommends removing residual free chlorine by pretreatment prior to membrane exposure. Please refer to Chlorination / Dechlorination (Section 2.6.3) for more information. 


I'm with you Bill....NO CHLORINE

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Peter Killen
 

Hi All
The answer to my problem turned out to be the high pressure switch which had defaulted. We can operate the system on 24v for the present until I can get a replacement part. 
Kind regards 
Peter
S/M 433 Pure Magic


On 10 Jul 2015, at 10:07, yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Keith,


For some reason my reply to you was broken in half by something.

I will try again.

Keith,

Maybe I misunderstood your earlier email where you said, "...water is pumped through the system and out through the hull..." The pressure valve is designed to increase pressure to the outside of the membranes by restricting the outflow...thus increasing pressure. It is actually very simple. 

I would not run the water maker until you find the source of the problem which could be:
  1. Source of saltwater is restricted by a closed valve, clogged prefilter(s), clogged line, supply pump (sometimes referred to as low pressure pump), not working or clogged. 
  2. Failure of the HP pump, which could be failed ceramic pistons, cracked head, or loose head (I had this "loose head" thing happen to me...bolts loosened and no pressure...tightened them up and all was good).
  3. Failure of the connection between the motor and the HP pump
  4. Dump valve stuck open (if you have this...I think newer systems do).
  5. Pressure adjustment valve not working correctly...i.e. not actually closing to increase pressure.
Some of your other questions:
Yes, a carbon filter will remove chlorine. I have seen many water maker installations with a carbon filter in-line with the flush line. I do not know why this is not standard on the Dessalator systems. The Dessalator Manual says: "Please note that the drinking water produced by your reverse osmosis system is essentially sterile, however, your fresh water storage should be treated periodically with chlorine or iodine to ensure it remains consumable. Pay attention not to allow chlorine into the desalination system, as this could damage the device."
I am not sure how Dessalator assumes that we "not to allow chlorine into the desalination system without a carbon filter to block the chlorine.

Regarding fresh water being a problem for membranes, I disagree and don't think so...the manual states:
 The membranes should be permanently immersed in liquid, either sea water before treatment, fresh water provisionally stored or sterilizing liquid, if the desalinator is not used for extended periods of time (Sterilizer is effective for six months and must be replaced after this period of time).

I believe the two biggest enemies of the Dessalator system are:
  • Chlorine
  • Dried membranes
  • Sterilizing or Cleaning chemicals (same chemical, but Dessalator uses both terms)
  • Overdosing Sterilizing or Cleaning chemical. I think that if you absolutely have to do this, use 50% of the quantity of chemical and do not leave the chemical in the membrane tubes, but rather flush with tank water for 15 minutes. The chemical is caustic!
Flushing regularly and after each use, or a minimum of once a week---for 6 minutes, with tank water, and using a carbon filter to block any chlorine is the best thing you can do.

All that said, I am no expert. My knowledge has been gained through years of sometimes costly experience.

Bill
BeBe 387


Andrew & Kate Lamb
 

Hi all 

Quick question - just crossing the Balearic sea to Minorca and have been checking the water maker - water tastes ok and green light is on but I recently got a TDS meter and it tells me the TDS is 1300 ppm - I think I read on this forum that the threshold for changing the membrane is 600?

Thanks

Andrew
Ronpische
SM472


On 11 Jul 2015, at 15:11, peter killen peterkillen@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi All
The answer to my problem turned out to be the high pressure switch which had defaulted. We can operate the system on 24v for the present until I can get a replacement part. 
Kind regards 
Peter
S/M 433 Pure Magic


On 10 Jul 2015, at 10:07, yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Keith,


For some reason my reply to you was broken in half by something.

I will try again.

Keith,

Maybe I misunderstood your earlier email where you said, "...water is pumped through the system and out through the hull..." The pressure valve is designed to increase pressure to the outside of the membranes by restricting the outflow...thus increasing pressure. It is actually very simple. 

I would not run the water maker until you find the source of the problem which could be:
  1. Source of saltwater is restricted by a closed valve, clogged prefilter(s), clogged line, supply pump (sometimes referred to as low pressure pump), not working or clogged. 
  2. Failure of the HP pump, which could be failed ceramic pistons, cracked head, or loose head (I had this "loose head" thing happen to me...bolts loosened and no pressure...tightened them up and all was good).
  3. Failure of the connection between the motor and the HP pump
  4. Dump valve stuck open (if you have this...I think newer systems do).
  5. Pressure adjustment valve not working correctly...i.e. not actually closing to increase pressure.
Some of your other questions:
Yes, a carbon filter will remove chlorine. I have seen many water maker installations with a carbon filter in-line with the flush line. I do not know why this is not standard on the Dessalator systems. The Dessalator Manual says: "Please note that the drinking water produced by your reverse osmosis system is essentially sterile, however, your fresh water storage should be treated periodically with chlorine or iodine to ensure it remains consumable. Pay attention not to allow chlorine into the desalination system, as this could damage the device."
I am not sure how Dessalator assumes that we "not to allow chlorine into the desalination system without a carbon filter to block the chlorine.

Regarding fresh water being a problem for membranes, I disagree and don't think so...the manual states:
 The membranes should be permanently immersed in liquid, either sea water before treatment, fresh water provisionally stored or sterilizing liquid, if the desalinator is not used for extended periods of time (Sterilizer is effective for six months and must be replaced after this period of time).

I believe the two biggest enemies of the Dessalator system are:
  • Chlorine
  • Dried membranes
  • Sterilizing or Cleaning chemicals (same chemical, but Dessalator uses both terms)
  • Overdosing Sterilizing or Cleaning chemical. I think that if you absolutely have to do this, use 50% of the quantity of chemical and do not leave the chemical in the membrane tubes, but rather flush with tank water for 15 minutes. The chemical is caustic!
Flushing regularly and after each use, or a minimum of once a week---for 6 minutes, with tank water, and using a carbon filter to block any chlorine is the best thing you can do.

All that said, I am no expert. My knowledge has been gained through years of sometimes costly experience.

Bill
BeBe 387


Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Andrew,

I think that the World Health Organization has a limit of 500-600 for drinking water. My personal threshold is 350 and I have changed the membranes 3 times in 10 years.

But, I think it also depends. We have been aboard full time and have depended on our water maker as the only source for all fresh water and drinking water as we have sailed around the world. I know other owners that buy bottled water for drinking. If this is what you do, then maybe you are OK. The last water I made on membranes that are 2 years old was 108 TDS. The TDS will vary up and down as much as about 20% based on two factors other than membranes: water temperature and the salinity of the sea water. I understand that the Med has a higher salt content than most other places.

I hope this helps you.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Currently Barcelona, Espana
Sent from my tablet
+39 333 121 8115 Italy Mobile
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail

On Jul 12, 2015 2:33 PM, "Andrew Lamb andrew.lamb@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi all 

Quick question - just crossing the Balearic sea to Minorca and have been checking the water maker - water tastes ok and green light is on but I recently got a TDS meter and it tells me the TDS is 1300 ppm - I think I read on this forum that the threshold for changing the membrane is 600?

Thanks

Andrew
Ronpische
SM472


On 11 Jul 2015, at 15:11, peter killen peterkillen@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi All
The answer to my problem turned out to be the high pressure switch which had defaulted. We can operate the system on 24v for the present until I can get a replacement part. 
Kind regards 
Peter
S/M 433 Pure Magic


On 10 Jul 2015, at 10:07, yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Keith,


For some reason my reply to you was broken in half by something.

I will try again.

Keith,

Maybe I misunderstood your earlier email where you said, "...water is pumped through the system and out through the hull..." The pressure valve is designed to increase pressure to the outside of the membranes by restricting the outflow...thus increasing pressure. It is actually very simple. 

I would not run the water maker until you find the source of the problem which could be:
  1. Source of saltwater is restricted by a closed valve, clogged prefilter(s), clogged line, supply pump (sometimes referred to as low pressure pump), not working or clogged. 
  2. Failure of the HP pump, which could be failed ceramic pistons, cracked head, or loose head (I had this "loose head" thing happen to me...bolts loosened and no pressure...tightened them up and all was good).
  3. Failure of the connection between the motor and the HP pump
  4. Dump valve stuck open (if you have this...I think newer systems do).
  5. Pressure adjustment valve not working correctly...i.e. not actually closing to increase pressure.
Some of your other questions:
Yes, a carbon filter will remove chlorine. I have seen many water maker installations with a carbon filter in-line with the flush line. I do not know why this is not standard on the Dessalator systems. The Dessalator Manual says: "Please note that the drinking water produced by your reverse osmosis system is essentially sterile, however, your fresh water storage should be treated periodically with chlorine or iodine to ensure it remains consumable. Pay attention not to allow chlorine into the desalination system, as this could damage the device."
I am not sure how Dessalator assumes that we "not to allow chlorine into the desalination system without a carbon filter to block the chlorine.

Regarding fresh water being a problem for membranes, I disagree and don't think so...the manual states:
 The membranes should be permanently immersed in liquid, either sea water before treatment, fresh water provisionally stored or sterilizing liquid, if the desalinator is not used for extended periods of time (Sterilizer is effective for six months and must be replaced after this period of time).

I believe the two biggest enemies of the Dessalator system are:
  • Chlorine
  • Dried membranes
  • Sterilizing or Cleaning chemicals (same chemical, but Dessalator uses both terms)
  • Overdosing Sterilizing or Cleaning chemical. I think that if you absolutely have to do this, use 50% of the quantity of chemical and do not leave the chemical in the membrane tubes, but rather flush with tank water for 15 minutes. The chemical is caustic!
Flushing regularly and after each use, or a minimum of once a week---for 6 minutes, with tank water, and using a carbon filter to block any chlorine is the best thing you can do.

All that said, I am no expert. My knowledge has been gained through years of sometimes costly experience.

Bill
BeBe 387


Andrew & Kate Lamb
 

Thanks Bill - very helpful

Andrew

Ronpische
SM 472


On 12 Jul 2015, at 15:28, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Andrew,

I think that the World Health Organization has a limit of 500-600 for drinking water. My personal threshold is 350 and I have changed the membranes 3 times in 10 years.

But, I think it also depends. We have been aboard full time and have depended on our water maker as the only source for all fresh water and drinking water as we have sailed around the world. I know other owners that buy bottled water for drinking. If this is what you do, then maybe you are OK. The last water I made on membranes that are 2 years old was 108 TDS. The TDS will vary up and down as much as about 20% based on two factors other than membranes: water temperature and the salinity of the sea water. I understand that the Med has a higher salt content than most other places.

I hope this helps you.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Currently Barcelona, Espana
Sent from my tablet
+39 333 121 8115 Italy Mobile
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail

On Jul 12, 2015 2:33 PM, "Andrew Lamb andrew.lamb@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi all 

Quick question - just crossing the Balearic sea to Minorca and have been checking the water maker - water tastes ok and green light is on but I recently got a TDS meter and it tells me the TDS is 1300 ppm - I think I read on this forum that the threshold for changing the membrane is 600?

Thanks

Andrew
Ronpische
SM472


On 11 Jul 2015, at 15:11, peter killen peterkillen@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi All
The answer to my problem turned out to be the high pressure switch which had defaulted. We can operate the system on 24v for the present until I can get a replacement part. 
Kind regards 
Peter
S/M 433 Pure Magic


On 10 Jul 2015, at 10:07, yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Keith,


For some reason my reply to you was broken in half by something.

I will try again.

Keith,

Maybe I misunderstood your earlier email where you said, "...water is pumped through the system and out through the hull..." The pressure valve is designed to increase pressure to the outside of the membranes by restricting the outflow...thus increasing pressure. It is actually very simple. 

I would not run the water maker until you find the source of the problem which could be:
  1. Source of saltwater is restricted by a closed valve, clogged prefilter(s), clogged line, supply pump (sometimes referred to as low pressure pump), not working or clogged. 
  2. Failure of the HP pump, which could be failed ceramic pistons, cracked head, or loose head (I had this "loose head" thing happen to me...bolts loosened and no pressure...tightened them up and all was good).
  3. Failure of the connection between the motor and the HP pump
  4. Dump valve stuck open (if you have this...I think newer systems do).
  5. Pressure adjustment valve not working correctly...i.e. not actually closing to increase pressure.
Some of your other questions:
Yes, a carbon filter will remove chlorine. I have seen many water maker installations with a carbon filter in-line with the flush line. I do not know why this is not standard on the Dessalator systems. The Dessalator Manual says: "Please note that the drinking water produced by your reverse osmosis system is essentially sterile, however, your fresh water storage should be treated periodically with chlorine or iodine to ensure it remains consumable. Pay attention not to allow chlorine into the desalination system, as this could damage the device."
I am not sure how Dessalator assumes that we "not to allow chlorine into the desalination system without a carbon filter to block the chlorine.

Regarding fresh water being a problem for membranes, I disagree and don't think so...the manual states:
 The membranes should be permanently immersed in liquid, either sea water before treatment, fresh water provisionally stored or sterilizing liquid, if the desalinator is not used for extended periods of time (Sterilizer is effective for six months and must be replaced after this period of time).

I believe the two biggest enemies of the Dessalator system are:
  • Chlorine
  • Dried membranes
  • Sterilizing or Cleaning chemicals (same chemical, but Dessalator uses both terms)
  • Overdosing Sterilizing or Cleaning chemical. I think that if you absolutely have to do this, use 50% of the quantity of chemical and do not leave the chemical in the membrane tubes, but rather flush with tank water for 15 minutes. The chemical is caustic!
Flushing regularly and after each use, or a minimum of once a week---for 6 minutes, with tank water, and using a carbon filter to block any chlorine is the best thing you can do.

All that said, I am no expert. My knowledge has been gained through years of sometimes costly experience.

Bill
BeBe 387