[Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54


karkauai
 

He "thinks"???  Has he actually checked compression?  I'm skeptical.  I wrote to Danny Ramos but he didn't reply, sorry.
If it really is a low compression problem, how does he's explain that fuel starvation caused the problem?  Does he explain what he thinks is the problem?  Bad rings? Bad valves?

I would guess that engine should be good for 10000 hrs.  I'd contact Danny Ramos at Marine Mechanical in Fajardo, PR before I bought a new engine.

If you're set on re powering, look at a new Yanmar.  Much easier to work on, get parts, etc.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Nov 14, 2015, at 11:35 AM, ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I want to thank everyone for the great advice and suggestions regarding my Amel 54 (Phantom) engine "no-start" issue. Since no one has been able to pinpoint the problem, I just had a Volvo Penta factory technician out to survey the situation. He thinks the compression is low on the engine, as it would not fire even as we sprayed WD40 into the intake. Although he had no specific rationale as to the possible cause of this conclusion, he did suggest that earlier fuel-starvation could have caused the problem, stressing the importance of maintaining a clean fuel supply at all times.


I have decided to replace the engine. That will restart the clock with zero hours and a 5-year warranty. The alternative would be to start tearing down the engine to determine the problem. Even if we do find something (blown head gasket, stuck valves, scored cylinders, etc.), chasing this "rebuild" tactic would be a very expensive and time-consuming operation - and it will still be a 9-year-old engine with 2500 hours. Although hugely expensive, a new engine is the only rational option. I do not want to continue chasing "ghosts."

Thanks again for the support.
Jamie Wendell
s/v Phantom


James Wendell <ms42phantom54@...>
 

Kent, I certainly appreciate the input, and I have to agree with you in principle. The engine seems to have expired prematurely, but that 10,000 hours is only realistic if properly maintained. But I have no other explanation, as we have tried almost every possible "solution" to no avail. Many folks have tested, diagnosed, and assessed the engine. I have listened to the engine spin and everyone (including myself) feels that it spins too easily. Spraying WD40 into the air intake should have at least allowed the engine to "cough" or "kick." It did not, and this is not the first time we have tried to inject "fuel" directly into the combustion chambers. I do not know how to explain that except with low compression in at least 2 or more cylinders. Plus, the suction at the intake during cranking seems quite weak.

We have not tried a compression check at this point, since that in itself is a fairly involved process. If we discover anything other than adequate compression, then I am faced with further engine tear down. Even if the compression is good, what then? We have tried almost everything else we could try. The technician did not actually volunteer the possibility that fuel starvation could have caused the problem, but when I explained to him that the engine stopped and failed to restart during sea trial (filters were solid black with contamination), he concluded that lack of fuel "lubrication" could have at least contributed to engine failure. He could not positively identify the problem without further investigation.

At this point I am becoming more and more convinced that there is internal engine damage. Again, I feel that chasing the problem will be quite costly unless I undertake that expedition on my own. I am most weary of fighting with this engine, as it has not run for the last 4 months, and I have already replaced a bunch of parts that have not allowed it to start.

If you do get an opinion from your contacts, I would sure welcome additional inputs.

Thanks, and I do agree with your opinion on Yanmars.............

Jamie Wendell



On Saturday, November 14, 2015 11:56 AM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote:


 
He "thinks"???  Has he actually checked compression?  I'm skeptical.  I wrote to Danny Ramos but he didn't reply, sorry.
If it really is a low compression problem, how does he's explain that fuel starvation caused the problem?  Does he explain what he thinks is the problem?  Bad rings? Bad valves?

I would guess that engine should be good for 10000 hrs.  I'd contact Danny Ramos at Marine Mechanical in Fajardo, PR before I bought a new engine.

If you're set on re powering, look at a new Yanmar.  Much easier to work on, get parts, etc.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Nov 14, 2015, at 11:35 AM, ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
I want to thank everyone for the great advice and suggestions regarding my Amel 54 (Phantom) engine "no-start" issue. Since no one has been able to pinpoint the problem, I just had a Volvo Penta factory technician out to survey the situation. He thinks the compression is low on the engine, as it would not fire even as we sprayed WD40 into the intake. Although he had no specific rationale as to the possible cause of this conclusion, he did suggest that earlier fuel-starvation could have caused the problem, stressing the importance of maintaining a clean fuel supply at all times.

I have decided to replace the engine. That will restart the clock with zero hours and a 5-year warranty. The alternative would be to start tearing down the engine to determine the problem. Even if we do find something (blown head gasket, stuck valves, scored cylinders, etc.), chasing this "rebuild" tactic would be a very expensive and time-consuming operation - and it will still be a 9-year-old engine with 2500 hours. Although hugely expensive, a new engine is the only rational option. I do not want to continue chasing "ghosts."

Thanks again for the support.
Jamie Wendell
s/v Phantom



Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

James,

My take away from all of your posts is that the mechanics and other experts that you have hired have done nothing except throw parts at your engine hoping that the part dejour will solve the problem. 

Also, it seems to me that most of the diagnoses that you have written about has come from you and not the people you hired to diagnose the engine non-starting problem.

If you are replacing the engine because you have had a series of people do nothing toward identifying the problem, you could be making another mistake. What if the problem is external of your engine?

I would raise all sorts of hell with Volvo Penta and demand that they identify someone who can give you a diagnoses and a recommended solution. I would also insist on some sort of compensation for parts replaced in error. I am not sure that I would get anywhere with these things, but I would work at it very hard.

If you are not going to do this, do you plan to buy and install a Volvo? And, if you are going to change that engine to Yanmar, you may be looking at all sorts of other issues...the house 24VDC alternator, motor mounts, Vetus coupling, etc.

Just my two cents worth. 

One last comment: That boat does not appear to have been maintained properly...probably not neglect, but likely some things were not completely understood by the owner...like the barnacle and marine growth...possibly there was an engine overheating issue...a proper compression test would give you a strong indication of damage. That boat spent a lot of time in Curacao where the barnacles breed like few other places. Gary left most things up to mechanics in marinas rather than being hands-on...and you know the quality of mechanics in marinas...I think you have met some recently.

Bill
BeBe #387

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 6:07 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Kent, I certainly appreciate the input, and I have to agree with you in principle. The engine seems to have expired prematurely, but that 10,000 hours is only realistic if properly maintained. But I have no other explanation, as we have tried almost every possible "solution" to no avail. Many folks have tested, diagnosed, and assessed the engine. I have listened to the engine spin and everyone (including myself) feels that it spins too easily. Spraying WD40 into the air intake should have at least allowed the engine to "cough" or "kick." It did not, and this is not the first time we have tried to inject "fuel" directly into the combustion chambers. I do not know how to explain that except with low compression in at least 2 or more cylinders. Plus, the suction at the intake during cranking seems quite weak.

We have not tried a compression check at this point, since that in itself is a fairly involved process. If we discover anything other than adequate compression, then I am faced with further engine tear down. Even if the compression is good, what then? We have tried almost everything else we could try. The technician did not actually volunteer the possibility that fuel starvation could have caused the problem, but when I explained to him that the engine stopped and failed to restart during sea trial (filters were solid black with contamination), he concluded that lack of fuel "lubrication" could have at least contributed to engine failure. He could not positively identify the problem without further investigation.

At this point I am becoming more and more convinced that there is internal engine damage. Again, I feel that chasing the problem will be quite costly unless I undertake that expedition on my own. I am most weary of fighting with this engine, as it has not run for the last 4 months, and I have already replaced a bunch of parts that have not allowed it to start.

If you do get an opinion from your contacts, I would sure welcome additional inputs.

Thanks, and I do agree with your opinion on Yanmars.............

Jamie Wendell



On Saturday, November 14, 2015 11:56 AM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
He "thinks"???  Has he actually checked compression?  I'm skeptical.  I wrote to Danny Ramos but he didn't reply, sorry.
If it really is a low compression problem, how does he's explain that fuel starvation caused the problem?  Does he explain what he thinks is the problem?  Bad rings? Bad valves?

I would guess that engine should be good for 10000 hrs.  I'd contact Danny Ramos at Marine Mechanical in Fajardo, PR before I bought a new engine.

If you're set on re powering, look at a new Yanmar.  Much easier to work on, get parts, etc.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Nov 14, 2015, at 11:35 AM, ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
I want to thank everyone for the great advice and suggestions regarding my Amel 54 (Phantom) engine "no-start" issue. Since no one has been able to pinpoint the problem, I just had a Volvo Penta factory technician out to survey the situation. He thinks the compression is low on the engine, as it would not fire even as we sprayed WD40 into the intake. Although he had no specific rationale as to the possible cause of this conclusion, he did suggest that earlier fuel-starvation could have caused the problem, stressing the importance of maintaining a clean fuel supply at all times.

I have decided to replace the engine. That will restart the clock with zero hours and a 5-year warranty. The alternative would be to start tearing down the engine to determine the problem. Even if we do find something (blown head gasket, stuck valves, scored cylinders, etc.), chasing this "rebuild" tactic would be a very expensive and time-consuming operation - and it will still be a 9-year-old engine with 2500 hours. Although hugely expensive, a new engine is the only rational option. I do not want to continue chasing "ghosts."

Thanks again for the support.
Jamie Wendell
s/v Phantom




James Wendell <ms42phantom54@...>
 

Thanks for the support Bill. Good comments indeed - I am still pondering a plan of attack based on all the feedback I have gotten.

Unfortunately, no one has yet given me any conclusive evidence as to what is wrong with the engine, so yeah (as an engineer myself who has rebuilt several gasoline engines in my youth) I have derived many of my own opinions. If I knew of a company or individual with proven expertise, I would bring them in for a final assessment. I try to be my own "expert," and all my boat issues have certainly given me a lot of hands-on knowledge of the boat and its systems. The only one I have not resolved is the engine. I do not have any misgivings for Gary, as I know he relied on all the "experts" out there supposedly supporting him.

By the way, the rep that "tested" a new ECM (based on Volvo recommendations) has agreed to refund my money. The fuel pump is a lost cause unfortunately.

Jamie Wendell
s/v Phantom



On Saturday, November 14, 2015 2:22 PM, "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote:


 
James,

My take away from all of your posts is that the mechanics and other experts that you have hired have done nothing except throw parts at your engine hoping that the part dejour will solve the problem. 

Also, it seems to me that most of the diagnoses that you have written about has come from you and not the people you hired to diagnose the engine non-starting problem.

If you are replacing the engine because you have had a series of people do nothing toward identifying the problem, you could be making another mistake. What if the problem is external of your engine?

I would raise all sorts of hell with Volvo Penta and demand that they identify someone who can give you a diagnoses and a recommended solution. I would also insist on some sort of compensation for parts replaced in error. I am not sure that I would get anywhere with these things, but I would work at it very hard.

If you are not going to do this, do you plan to buy and install a Volvo? And, if you are going to change that engine to Yanmar, you may be looking at all sorts of other issues...the house 24VDC alternator, motor mounts, Vetus coupling, etc.

Just my two cents worth. 

One last comment: That boat does not appear to have been maintained properly...probably not neglect, but likely some things were not completely understood by the owner...like the barnacle and marine growth...possibly there was an engine overheating issue...a proper compression test would give you a strong indication of damage. That boat spent a lot of time in Curacao where the barnacles breed like few other places. Gary left most things up to mechanics in marinas rather than being hands-on...and you know the quality of mechanics in marinas...I think you have met some recently.

Bill
BeBe #387

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 6:07 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
Kent, I certainly appreciate the input, and I have to agree with you in principle. The engine seems to have expired prematurely, but that 10,000 hours is only realistic if properly maintained. But I have no other explanation, as we have tried almost every possible "solution" to no avail. Many folks have tested, diagnosed, and assessed the engine. I have listened to the engine spin and everyone (including myself) feels that it spins too easily. Spraying WD40 into the air intake should have at least allowed the engine to "cough" or "kick." It did not, and this is not the first time we have tried to inject "fuel" directly into the combustion chambers. I do not know how to explain that except with low compression in at least 2 or more cylinders. Plus, the suction at the intake during cranking seems quite weak.

We have not tried a compression check at this point, since that in itself is a fairly involved process. If we discover anything other than adequate compression, then I am faced with further engine tear down. Even if the compression is good, what then? We have tried almost everything else we could try. The technician did not actually volunteer the possibility that fuel starvation could have caused the problem, but when I explained to him that the engine stopped and failed to restart during sea trial (filters were solid black with contamination), he concluded that lack of fuel "lubrication" could have at least contributed to engine failure. He could not positively identify the problem without further investigation.

At this point I am becoming more and more convinced that there is internal engine damage. Again, I feel that chasing the problem will be quite costly unless I undertake that expedition on my own. I am most weary of fighting with this engine, as it has not run for the last 4 months, and I have already replaced a bunch of parts that have not allowed it to start.

If you do get an opinion from your contacts, I would sure welcome additional inputs.

Thanks, and I do agree with your opinion on Yanmars.............

Jamie Wendell



On Saturday, November 14, 2015 11:56 AM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
He "thinks"???  Has he actually checked compression?  I'm skeptical.  I wrote to Danny Ramos but he didn't reply, sorry.
If it really is a low compression problem, how does he's explain that fuel starvation caused the problem?  Does he explain what he thinks is the problem?  Bad rings? Bad valves?

I would guess that engine should be good for 10000 hrs.  I'd contact Danny Ramos at Marine Mechanical in Fajardo, PR before I bought a new engine.

If you're set on re powering, look at a new Yanmar.  Much easier to work on, get parts, etc.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Nov 14, 2015, at 11:35 AM, ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
I want to thank everyone for the great advice and suggestions regarding my Amel 54 (Phantom) engine "no-start" issue. Since no one has been able to pinpoint the problem, I just had a Volvo Penta factory technician out to survey the situation. He thinks the compression is low on the engine, as it would not fire even as we sprayed WD40 into the intake. Although he had no specific rationale as to the possible cause of this conclusion, he did suggest that earlier fuel-starvation could have caused the problem, stressing the importance of maintaining a clean fuel supply at all times.

I have decided to replace the engine. That will restart the clock with zero hours and a 5-year warranty. The alternative would be to start tearing down the engine to determine the problem. Even if we do find something (blown head gasket, stuck valves, scored cylinders, etc.), chasing this "rebuild" tactic would be a very expensive and time-consuming operation - and it will still be a 9-year-old engine with 2500 hours. Although hugely expensive, a new engine is the only rational option. I do not want to continue chasing "ghosts."

Thanks again for the support.
Jamie Wendell
s/v Phantom






James Wendell <ms42phantom54@...>
 

Let me see if I can do it. They should be able to quote me.
Thanks,
Jamie



On Saturday, November 14, 2015 3:08 PM, James Wendell wrote:


Thanks for the support Bill. Good comments indeed - I am still pondering a plan of attack based on all the feedback I have gotten.

Unfortunately, no one has yet given me any conclusive evidence as to what is wrong with the engine, so yeah (as an engineer myself who has rebuilt several gasoline engines in my youth) I have derived many of my own opinions. If I knew of a company or individual with proven expertise, I would bring them in for a final assessment. I try to be my own "expert," and all my boat issues have certainly given me a lot of hands-on knowledge of the boat and its systems. The only one I have not resolved is the engine. I do not have any misgivings for Gary, as I know he relied on all the "experts" out there supposedly supporting him.

By the way, the rep that "tested" a new ECM (based on Volvo recommendations) has agreed to refund my money. The fuel pump is a lost cause unfortunately.

Jamie Wendell
s/v Phantom



On Saturday, November 14, 2015 2:22 PM, "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote:


 
James,

My take away from all of your posts is that the mechanics and other experts that you have hired have done nothing except throw parts at your engine hoping that the part dejour will solve the problem. 

Also, it seems to me that most of the diagnoses that you have written about has come from you and not the people you hired to diagnose the engine non-starting problem.

If you are replacing the engine because you have had a series of people do nothing toward identifying the problem, you could be making another mistake. What if the problem is external of your engine?

I would raise all sorts of hell with Volvo Penta and demand that they identify someone who can give you a diagnoses and a recommended solution. I would also insist on some sort of compensation for parts replaced in error. I am not sure that I would get anywhere with these things, but I would work at it very hard.

If you are not going to do this, do you plan to buy and install a Volvo? And, if you are going to change that engine to Yanmar, you may be looking at all sorts of other issues...the house 24VDC alternator, motor mounts, Vetus coupling, etc.

Just my two cents worth. 

One last comment: That boat does not appear to have been maintained properly...probably not neglect, but likely some things were not completely understood by the owner...like the barnacle and marine growth...possibly there was an engine overheating issue...a proper compression test would give you a strong indication of damage. That boat spent a lot of time in Curacao where the barnacles breed like few other places. Gary left most things up to mechanics in marinas rather than being hands-on...and you know the quality of mechanics in marinas...I think you have met some recently.

Bill
BeBe #387

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 6:07 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
Kent, I certainly appreciate the input, and I have to agree with you in principle. The engine seems to have expired prematurely, but that 10,000 hours is only realistic if properly maintained. But I have no other explanation, as we have tried almost every possible "solution" to no avail. Many folks have tested, diagnosed, and assessed the engine. I have listened to the engine spin and everyone (including myself) feels that it spins too easily. Spraying WD40 into the air intake should have at least allowed the engine to "cough" or "kick." It did not, and this is not the first time we have tried to inject "fuel" directly into the combustion chambers. I do not know how to explain that except with low compression in at least 2 or more cylinders. Plus, the suction at the intake during cranking seems quite weak.

We have not tried a compression check at this point, since that in itself is a fairly involved process. If we discover anything other than adequate compression, then I am faced with further engine tear down. Even if the compression is good, what then? We have tried almost everything else we could try. The technician did not actually volunteer the possibility that fuel starvation could have caused the problem, but when I explained to him that the engine stopped and failed to restart during sea trial (filters were solid black with contamination), he concluded that lack of fuel "lubrication" could have at least contributed to engine failure. He could not positively identify the problem without further investigation.

At this point I am becoming more and more convinced that there is internal engine damage. Again, I feel that chasing the problem will be quite costly unless I undertake that expedition on my own. I am most weary of fighting with this engine, as it has not run for the last 4 months, and I have already replaced a bunch of parts that have not allowed it to start.

If you do get an opinion from your contacts, I would sure welcome additional inputs.

Thanks, and I do agree with your opinion on Yanmars.............

Jamie Wendell



On Saturday, November 14, 2015 11:56 AM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
He "thinks"???  Has he actually checked compression?  I'm skeptical.  I wrote to Danny Ramos but he didn't reply, sorry.
If it really is a low compression problem, how does he's explain that fuel starvation caused the problem?  Does he explain what he thinks is the problem?  Bad rings? Bad valves?

I would guess that engine should be good for 10000 hrs.  I'd contact Danny Ramos at Marine Mechanical in Fajardo, PR before I bought a new engine.

If you're set on re powering, look at a new Yanmar.  Much easier to work on, get parts, etc.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Nov 14, 2015, at 11:35 AM, ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
I want to thank everyone for the great advice and suggestions regarding my Amel 54 (Phantom) engine "no-start" issue. Since no one has been able to pinpoint the problem, I just had a Volvo Penta factory technician out to survey the situation. He thinks the compression is low on the engine, as it would not fire even as we sprayed WD40 into the intake. Although he had no specific rationale as to the possible cause of this conclusion, he did suggest that earlier fuel-starvation could have caused the problem, stressing the importance of maintaining a clean fuel supply at all times.

I have decided to replace the engine. That will restart the clock with zero hours and a 5-year warranty. The alternative would be to start tearing down the engine to determine the problem. Even if we do find something (blown head gasket, stuck valves, scored cylinders, etc.), chasing this "rebuild" tactic would be a very expensive and time-consuming operation - and it will still be a 9-year-old engine with 2500 hours. Although hugely expensive, a new engine is the only rational option. I do not want to continue chasing "ghosts."

Thanks again for the support.
Jamie Wendell
s/v Phantom








Mark Erdos
 

I have to agree with Bill regarding the fact: What if the issue is external to the engine. Personally I would like to know for certain if the engine is shot, or not.



As for the compression check. I cannot believe the Volvo Tech did not perform this. It is not hard to do and requires only mildly expensive equipment that any good mechanic would regularly carry in their tools. The compression check test each cylinder by removing the injector, attaching the gauge and cranking the engine for about 15 secs per cylinder. It should take less than an hour to test all cylinders. For a problem such as yours it would be very insightful to know if compression, or lack of it, is the issue. If the results confirm you thoughts, you may well be better replacing the engine. But what if you have good compression? If could mean you are on the wrong path of diagnosis. I have read this thread since the first post and have thought this is more likely a fuel problem. Also, you shouldn’t need a Volvo mechanic to do a compression check. Any capable diesel mechanic can do this test.



I asked these questions before but did not see a response. Has the engine been cranked with the fuel line to the injectors loosened and fuel observed leaking out of the end? Are you absolutely certain you have fuel entering the cylinders? I do not think WD40 alone would be enough to cause the engine to cough.







With best regards,



Mark



Super Maramu 2000

Hull #275

www.creampuff.us

Currently cruising: St Augustine, FL



From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2015 2:22 PM
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54





James,



My take away from all of your posts is that the mechanics and other experts that you have hired have done nothing except throw parts at your engine hoping that the part dejour will solve the problem.



Also, it seems to me that most of the diagnoses that you have written about has come from you and not the people you hired to diagnose the engine non-starting problem.



If you are replacing the engine because you have had a series of people do nothing toward identifying the problem, you could be making another mistake. What if the problem is external of your engine?

I would raise all sorts of hell with Volvo Penta and demand that they identify someone who can give you a diagnoses and a recommended solution. I would also insist on some sort of compensation for parts replaced in error. I am not sure that I would get anywhere with these things, but I would work at it very hard.

If you are not going to do this, do you plan to buy and install a Volvo? And, if you are going to change that engine to Yanmar, you may be looking at all sorts of other issues...the house 24VDC alternator, motor mounts, Vetus coupling, etc.



Just my two cents worth.



One last comment: That boat does not appear to have been maintained properly...probably not neglect, but likely some things were not completely understood by the owner...like the barnacle and marine growth...possibly there was an engine overheating issue...a proper compression test would give you a strong indication of damage. That boat spent a lot of time in Curacao where the barnacles breed like few other places. Gary left most things up to mechanics in marinas rather than being hands-on...and you know the quality of mechanics in marinas...I think you have met some recently.



Bill

BeBe #387



On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 6:07 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@yahoo.com [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Kent, I certainly appreciate the input, and I have to agree with you in principle. The engine seems to have expired prematurely, but that 10,000 hours is only realistic if properly maintained. But I have no other explanation, as we have tried almost every possible "solution" to no avail. Many folks have tested, diagnosed, and assessed the engine. I have listened to the engine spin and everyone (including myself) feels that it spins too easily. Spraying WD40 into the air intake should have at least allowed the engine to "cough" or "kick." It did not, and this is not the first time we have tried to inject "fuel" directly into the combustion chambers. I do not know how to explain that except with low compression in at least 2 or more cylinders. Plus, the suction at the intake during cranking seems quite weak.



We have not tried a compression check at this point, since that in itself is a fairly involved process. If we discover anything other than adequate compression, then I am faced with further engine tear down. Even if the compression is good, what then? We have tried almost everything else we could try. The technician did not actually volunteer the possibility that fuel starvation could have caused the problem, but when I explained to him that the engine stopped and failed to restart during sea trial (filters were solid black with contamination), he concluded that lack of fuel "lubrication" could have at least contributed to engine failure. He could not positively identify the problem without further investigation.



At this point I am becoming more and more convinced that there is internal engine damage. Again, I feel that chasing the problem will be quite costly unless I undertake that expedition on my own. I am most weary of fighting with this engine, as it has not run for the last 4 months, and I have already replaced a bunch of parts that have not allowed it to start.



If you do get an opinion from your contacts, I would sure welcome additional inputs.



Thanks, and I do agree with your opinion on Yanmars.............



Jamie Wendell





On Saturday, November 14, 2015 11:56 AM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@yahoo.com [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:





He "thinks"??? Has he actually checked compression? I'm skeptical. I wrote to Danny Ramos but he didn't reply, sorry.

If it really is a low compression problem, how does he's explain that fuel starvation caused the problem? Does he explain what he thinks is the problem? Bad rings? Bad valves?



I would guess that engine should be good for 10000 hrs. I'd contact Danny Ramos at Marine Mechanical in Fajardo, PR before I bought a new engine.



If you're set on re powering, look at a new Yanmar. Much easier to work on, get parts, etc.

Kent

SM 243

Kristy
On Nov 14, 2015, at 11:35 AM, ms42phantom54@yahoo.com [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



I want to thank everyone for the great advice and suggestions regarding my Amel 54 (Phantom) engine "no-start" issue. Since no one has been able to pinpoint the problem, I just had a Volvo Penta factory technician out to survey the situation. He thinks the compression is low on the engine, as it would not fire even as we sprayed WD40 into the intake. Although he had no specific rationale as to the possible cause of this conclusion, he did suggest that earlier fuel-starvation could have caused the problem, stressing the importance of maintaining a clean fuel supply at all times.



I have decided to replace the engine. That will restart the clock with zero hours and a 5-year warranty. The alternative would be to start tearing down the engine to determine the problem. Even if we do find something (blown head gasket, stuck valves, scored cylinders, etc.), chasing this "rebuild" tactic would be a very expensive and time-consuming operation - and it will still be a 9-year-old engine with 2500 hours. Although hugely expensive, a new engine is the only rational option. I do not want to continue chasing "ghosts."



Thanks again for the support.

Jamie Wendell

s/v Phantom









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


James Wendell <ms42phantom54@...>
 

 
Mark, thanks for the suggestions. As you can see this is a perplexing problem and I still do not know the culprit, but I have systematically ruled out many things. We isolated the fuel system by providing an independent day tank, eliminating the boat fuel tank and filters. I am not sure what else external to the engine could be studied. The battery is fine and the ECM is getting good voltage. As you know we replaced the ECM and then returned it.

The Volvo Tech did nothing except sit in the cockpit and watch the Seven Seas mechanic do a couple of tests. I am going to ask for a quote on doing a compression check test. Getting the injectors out does take some time as I have already done that once, and the mounting parts would have to be replaced again. Those parts alone are several hundred dollars. When you figure the labor a compression check will likely cost about $500 to $600. I have already spent nearly $4,000 replacing fuel pumps, high-pressure lines, and servicing the injectors. Maybe the added expense is worth the knowledge, and I concur that a compression check is in order.
Also, we have not cranked the engine with the fuel line to the injectors loosened. That is very risky at the high pressures generated, but we do know that fuel is returning from the injectors? Why do you think WD40 alone would not be enough to cause the engine to cough? If the engine has sufficient compression it should at least try to fire. Continuous spraying into the air intake while cranking did not do anything, and we tried it a couple times.
Jamie



On Saturday, November 14, 2015 9:28 PM, "'Mark Erdos' mcerdos@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote:


 
I have to agree with Bill regarding the fact: What if the issue is external to the engine. Personally I would like to know for certain if the engine is shot, or not.

As for the compression check. I cannot believe the Volvo Tech did not perform this. It is not hard to do and requires only mildly expensive equipment that any good mechanic would regularly carry in their tools. The compression check test each cylinder by removing the injector, attaching the gauge and cranking the engine for about 15 secs per cylinder. It should take less than an hour to test all cylinders. For a problem such as yours it would be very insightful to know if compression, or lack of it, is the issue. If the results confirm you thoughts, you may well be better replacing the engine. But what if you have good compression? If could mean you are on the wrong path of diagnosis. I have read this thread since the first post and have thought this is more likely a fuel problem. Also, you shouldn’t need a Volvo mechanic to do a compression check. Any capable diesel mechanic can do this test.

I asked these questions before but did not see a response. Has the engine been cranked with the fuel line to the injectors loosened and fuel observed leaking out of the end? Are you absolutely certain you have fuel entering the cylinders? I do not think WD40 alone would be enough to cause the engine to cough.

With best regards,

Mark

Super Maramu 2000

Hull #275

www.creampuff.us

Currently cruising: St Augustine, FL

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2015 2:22 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

James,

My take away from all of your posts is that the mechanics and other experts that you have hired have done nothing except throw parts at your engine hoping that the part dejour will solve the problem.

Also, it seems to me that most of the diagnoses that you have written about has come from you and not the people you hired to diagnose the engine non-starting problem.

If you are replacing the engine because you have had a series of people do nothing toward identifying the problem, you could be making another mistake. What if the problem is external of your engine?

I would raise all sorts of hell with Volvo Penta and demand that they identify someone who can give you a diagnoses and a recommended solution. I would also insist on some sort of compensation for parts replaced in error. I am not sure that I would get anywhere with these things, but I would work at it very hard.

If you are not going to do this, do you plan to buy and install a Volvo? And, if you are going to change that engine to Yanmar, you may be looking at all sorts of other issues...the house 24VDC alternator, motor mounts, Vetus coupling, etc.

Just my two cents worth.

One last comment: That boat does not appear to have been maintained properly...probably not neglect, but likely some things were not completely understood by the owner...like the barnacle and marine growth...possibly there was an engine overheating issue...a proper compression test would give you a strong indication of damage. That boat spent a lot of time in Curacao where the barnacles breed like few other places. Gary left most things up to mechanics in marinas rather than being hands-on...and you know the quality of mechanics in marinas...I think you have met some recently.

Bill

BeBe #387

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 6:07 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:

Kent, I certainly appreciate the input, and I have to agree with you in principle. The engine seems to have expired prematurely, but that 10,000 hours is only realistic if properly maintained. But I have no other explanation, as we have tried almost every possible "solution" to no avail. Many folks have tested, diagnosed, and assessed the engine. I have listened to the engine spin and everyone (including myself) feels that it spins too easily. Spraying WD40 into the air intake should have at least allowed the engine to "cough" or "kick." It did not, and this is not the first time we have tried to inject "fuel" directly into the combustion chambers. I do not know how to explain that except with low compression in at least 2 or more cylinders. Plus, the suction at the intake during cranking seems quite weak.

We have not tried a compression check at this point, since that in itself is a fairly involved process. If we discover anything other than adequate compression, then I am faced with further engine tear down. Even if the compression is good, what then? We have tried almost everything else we could try. The technician did not actually volunteer the possibility that fuel starvation could have caused the problem, but when I explained to him that the engine stopped and failed to restart during sea trial (filters were solid black with contamination), he concluded that lack of fuel "lubrication" could have at least contributed to engine failure. He could not positively identify the problem without further investigation.

At this point I am becoming more and more convinced that there is internal engine damage. Again, I feel that chasing the problem will be quite costly unless I undertake that expedition on my own. I am most weary of fighting with this engine, as it has not run for the last 4 months, and I have already replaced a bunch of parts that have not allowed it to start.

If you do get an opinion from your contacts, I would sure welcome additional inputs.

Thanks, and I do agree with your opinion on Yanmars.............

Jamie Wendell

On Saturday, November 14, 2015 11:56 AM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote:

He "thinks"??? Has he actually checked compression? I'm skeptical. I wrote to Danny Ramos but he didn't reply, sorry.

If it really is a low compression problem, how does he's explain that fuel starvation caused the problem? Does he explain what he thinks is the problem? Bad rings? Bad valves?

I would guess that engine should be good for 10000 hrs. I'd contact Danny Ramos at Marine Mechanical in Fajardo, PR before I bought a new engine.

If you're set on re powering, look at a new Yanmar. Much easier to work on, get parts, etc.

Kent

SM 243

Kristy



On Nov 14, 2015, at 11:35 AM, ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:

I want to thank everyone for the great advice and suggestions regarding my Amel 54 (Phantom) engine "no-start" issue. Since no one has been able to pinpoint the problem, I just had a Volvo Penta factory technician out to survey the situation. He thinks the compression is low on the engine, as it would not fire even as we sprayed WD40 into the intake. Although he had no specific rationale as to the possible cause of this conclusion, he did suggest that earlier fuel-starvation could have caused the problem, stressing the importance of maintaining a clean fuel supply at all times.

I have decided to replace the engine. That will restart the clock with zero hours and a 5-year warranty. The alternative would be to start tearing down the engine to determine the problem. Even if we do find something (blown head gasket, stuck valves, scored cylinders, etc.), chasing this "rebuild" tactic would be a very expensive and time-consuming operation - and it will still be a 9-year-old engine with 2500 hours. Although hugely expensive, a new engine is the only rational option. I do not want to continue chasing "ghosts."

Thanks again for the support.

Jamie Wendell

s/v Phantom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Good morning Jamie,

I have been reading your troubles…
I won’t be able to contribute solving the issue, but this reminds me last winter when I was in Fort Lauderdale.
I thought my Volvo TDM 22 P was running a little warm.

I was recommended to use Diesel of America.
It was an absolute disaster…
They took me for a ride, $8000 later, and the engine was now running hotter…

Their first reply was: “We put new parts this is normal you are running hotter… “
I answer: I hire you to make it run cooler.

Their second reply: “We check the specs, this is totally normal for your engine. “
My reply: if it is normal now, so it was before, why did you make me spend $8000.

Their third reply: “we can’t find the specs for your engine”
Obviously it was a lie after another one, they had no clue.

All I was hoping for was to be back like I was.
It is only under the threat of hiring a lawyer that they sent me their senior technicien which eventually found some mistakes.

All that to say, it seems your mechanic is incompetent and taking advantage of you.
Fire him. I know it is difficult to start using someone else as you feel you have “invested” so much, but he won't solve your problem. All he will do was charing you more and more.
Have these reimbursing the labor and get a discount on the parts.
Ask VOLVO dealership directly the best they recommend.

I didn’t do the mistake twice, when I wanted my genset totally checked, I had Onan doing the work.

I feel for you…
Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Emerald Bay Marina, Great Exumas, Bahamas



--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 11/15/15, James Wendell ms42phantom54@yahoo.com [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54
To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, November 15, 2015, 9:06 AM


 









 Mark, thanks for the suggestions.
As you can see this is a perplexing problem and I still do
not know the culprit, but I have systematically ruled out
many things. We isolated the fuel system by providing an
independent day tank, eliminating the boat fuel tank and
filters. I am not sure what else external to the engine
could be studied. The battery is fine and the ECM is getting
good voltage. As you know we replaced the ECM and then
returned it.

The Volvo
Tech did nothing except sit in the cockpit and watch the
Seven Seas mechanic do a couple of tests. I am going to ask
for a quote on doing a compression check test. Getting the
injectors out does take some time as I have already done
that once, and the mounting parts would have to be replaced
again. Those parts alone are several hundred dollars. When
you figure the labor a compression check will likely cost
about $500 to $600. I have already spent nearly $4,000
replacing fuel pumps, high-pressure lines, and servicing the
injectors. Maybe the added expense is worth the
knowledge, and I
concur that a compression check is in
order.Also, we have not cranked the engine
with the fuel line to the injectors loosened. That is very
risky at the high pressures generated, but we do know that
fuel is returning from the injectors? Why do you think WD40
alone would not be enough to cause the engine to cough? If
the engine has sufficient compression it should at least try
to fire. Continuous spraying into the air intake while
cranking did not do anything, and we tried it a couple
times.Jamie



On Saturday,
November 14, 2015 9:28 PM, "'Mark Erdos'
mcerdos@gmail.com [amelyachtowners]"
<amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



 









I have to agree with Bill regarding the fact:
What if the issue is external to the engine. Personally I
would like to know for certain if the engine is shot, or
not.



As for the compression check. I cannot believe the Volvo
Tech did not perform this. It is not hard to do and requires
only mildly expensive equipment that any good mechanic would
regularly carry in their tools. The compression check test
each cylinder by removing the injector, attaching the gauge
and cranking the engine for about 15 secs per cylinder. It
should take less than an hour to test all cylinders. For a
problem such as yours it would be very insightful to know if
compression, or lack of it, is the issue. If the results
confirm you thoughts, you may well be better replacing the
engine. But what if you have good compression? If could mean
you are on the wrong path of diagnosis. I have read this
thread since the first post and have thought this is more
likely a fuel problem. Also, you shouldn’t need a Volvo
mechanic to do a compression check. Any capable diesel
mechanic can do this test.



I asked these questions before but did not see a response.
Has the engine been cranked with the fuel line to the
injectors loosened and fuel observed leaking out of the end?
Are you absolutely certain you have fuel entering the
cylinders? I do not think WD40 alone would be enough to
cause the engine to cough.



With best regards,



Mark



Super Maramu 2000



Hull #275



www.creampuff.us



Currently cruising: St Augustine, FL



From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com]

Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2015 2:22 PM

To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel
54



James,



My take away from all of your posts is that the mechanics
and other experts that you have hired have done nothing
except throw parts at your engine hoping that the part
dejour will solve the problem.



Also, it seems to me that most of the diagnoses that you
have written about has come from you and not the people you
hired to diagnose the engine non-starting problem.



If you are replacing the engine because you have had a
series of people do nothing toward identifying the problem,
you could be making another mistake. What if the problem is
external of your engine?



I would raise all sorts of hell with Volvo Penta and demand
that they identify someone who can give you a diagnoses and
a recommended solution. I would also insist on some sort of
compensation for parts replaced in error. I am not sure that
I would get anywhere with these things, but I would work at
it very hard.



If you are not going to do this, do you plan to buy and
install a Volvo? And, if you are going to change that engine
to Yanmar, you may be looking at all sorts of other
issues...the house 24VDC alternator, motor mounts, Vetus
coupling, etc.



Just my two cents worth.



One last comment: That boat does not appear to have been
maintained properly...probably not neglect, but likely some
things were not completely understood by the owner...like
the barnacle and marine growth...possibly there was an
engine overheating issue...a proper compression test would
give you a strong indication of damage. That boat spent a
lot of time in Curacao where the barnacles breed like few
other places. Gary left most things up to mechanics in
marinas rather than being hands-on...and you know the
quality of mechanics in marinas...I think you have met some
recently.



Bill



BeBe #387



On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 6:07 PM, James Wendell
ms42phantom54@yahoo.com [amelyachtowners]
<amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Kent, I certainly appreciate the input, and I have to agree
with you in principle. The engine seems to have expired
prematurely, but that 10,000 hours is only realistic if
properly maintained. But I have no other explanation, as we
have tried almost every possible "solution" to no
avail. Many folks have tested, diagnosed, and assessed the
engine. I have listened to the engine spin and everyone
(including myself) feels that it spins too easily. Spraying
WD40 into the air intake should have at least allowed the
engine to "cough" or "kick." It did not,
and this is not the first time we have tried to inject
"fuel" directly into the combustion chambers. I do
not know how to explain that except with low compression in
at least 2 or more cylinders. Plus, the suction at the
intake during cranking seems quite weak.



We have not tried a compression check at this point, since
that in itself is a fairly involved process. If we discover
anything other than adequate compression, then I am faced
with further engine tear down. Even if the compression is
good, what then? We have tried almost everything else we
could try. The technician did not actually volunteer the
possibility that fuel starvation could have caused the
problem, but when I explained to him that the engine stopped
and failed to restart during sea trial (filters were solid
black with contamination), he concluded that lack of fuel
"lubrication" could have at least contributed to
engine failure. He could not positively identify the problem
without further investigation.



At this point I am becoming more and more convinced that
there is internal engine damage. Again, I feel that chasing
the problem will be quite costly unless I undertake that
expedition on my own. I am most weary of fighting with this
engine, as it has not run for the last 4 months, and I have
already replaced a bunch of parts that have not allowed it
to start.



If you do get an opinion from your contacts, I would sure
welcome additional inputs.



Thanks, and I do agree with your opinion on
Yanmars.............



Jamie Wendell



On Saturday, November 14, 2015 11:56 AM, "Kent
Robertson karkauai@yahoo.com [amelyachtowners]"
<amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



He "thinks"??? Has he actually checked
compression? I'm skeptical. I wrote to Danny Ramos but
he didn't reply, sorry.



If it really is a low compression problem, how does he's
explain that fuel starvation caused the problem? Does he
explain what he thinks is the problem? Bad rings? Bad
valves?



I would guess that engine should be good for 10000 hrs.
I'd contact Danny Ramos at Marine Mechanical in Fajardo,
PR before I bought a new engine.



If you're set on re powering, look at a new Yanmar.
Much easier to work on, get parts, etc.



Kent



SM 243



Kristy
On Nov 14, 2015, at 11:35 AM, ms42phantom54@yahoo.com
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:



I want to thank everyone for the great advice and
suggestions regarding my Amel 54 (Phantom) engine
"no-start" issue. Since no one has been able to
pinpoint the problem, I just had a Volvo Penta factory
technician out to survey the situation. He thinks the
compression is low on the engine, as it would not fire even
as we sprayed WD40 into the intake. Although he had no
specific rationale as to the possible cause of this
conclusion, he did suggest that earlier fuel-starvation
could have caused the problem, stressing the importance of
maintaining a clean fuel supply at all times.



I have decided to replace the engine. That will restart the
clock with zero hours and a 5-year warranty. The alternative
would be to start tearing down the engine to determine the
problem. Even if we do find something (blown head gasket,
stuck valves, scored cylinders, etc.), chasing this
"rebuild" tactic would be a very expensive and
time-consuming operation - and it will still be a 9-year-old
engine with 2500 hours. Although hugely expensive, a new
engine is the only rational option. I do not want to
continue chasing "ghosts."



Thanks again for the support.



Jamie Wendell



s/v Phantom





























#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017 --
#yiv1089526017ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-mkp #yiv1089526017hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-mkp #yiv1089526017ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-mkp .yiv1089526017ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-mkp .yiv1089526017ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-mkp .yiv1089526017ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-sponsor
#yiv1089526017ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-sponsor
#yiv1089526017ygrp-lc #yiv1089526017hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-sponsor
#yiv1089526017ygrp-lc .yiv1089526017ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017activity span
.yiv1089526017underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv1089526017 .yiv1089526017attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv1089526017 .yiv1089526017attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1089526017 .yiv1089526017attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv1089526017 .yiv1089526017attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv1089526017 .yiv1089526017attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1089526017 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv1089526017 .yiv1089526017bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1089526017 .yiv1089526017bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1089526017 dd.yiv1089526017last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1089526017 dd.yiv1089526017last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1089526017 dd.yiv1089526017last p
span.yiv1089526017yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv1089526017 div.yiv1089526017attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1089526017 div.yiv1089526017attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv1089526017 div.yiv1089526017file-title a, #yiv1089526017
div.yiv1089526017file-title a:active, #yiv1089526017
div.yiv1089526017file-title a:hover, #yiv1089526017
div.yiv1089526017file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1089526017 div.yiv1089526017photo-title a,
#yiv1089526017 div.yiv1089526017photo-title a:active,
#yiv1089526017 div.yiv1089526017photo-title a:hover,
#yiv1089526017 div.yiv1089526017photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1089526017 div#yiv1089526017ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv1089526017ygrp-msg p a span.yiv1089526017yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv1089526017 .yiv1089526017green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv1089526017 .yiv1089526017MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv1089526017 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv1089526017 .yiv1089526017replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv1089526017 input, #yiv1089526017 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv1089526017
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-mlmsg #yiv1089526017logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}


#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-msg
p#yiv1089526017attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-reco
#yiv1089526017reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-sponsor #yiv1089526017ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-sponsor #yiv1089526017ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-sponsor #yiv1089526017ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv1089526017 #yiv1089526017ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv1089526017


Mark Erdos
 

James,

 

Was the throttle wide open when the WD40 was sprayed into the air intake? Was the throttle control verified that the cable is opening the throttle at the engine?

 

Not having the compression check done at this point makes it hard to diagnose. The lack of compression is not an indication that the engine is totally shot. It simply means there is a gap somewhere allowing air to escape. The most likely causes are: stuck valves (a result of carbon build up because the engine was run at lower RPMs for extended hours, improper gapping of valve clearances etc (were these service recently - is it possible someone messed this up?). It is highly unlikely the head gasket is blown (an engine will run with a blown head gasket but spew out all sorts of smoke). You may just need a top end overhaul. Worst case is damage to the cylinder walls or rings. However, this would normally follow hours of rough running or hard to start symptoms since cylinders do not suddenly all fail at once. If I recall, your engine ran well and then quit. This is not typical of internal mechanical issues.

 

If the compression is within spec, you have a fuel or air problem. There is very little risk in loosening an injector nut and cranking the engine. Place a paper towel under the nut to check for diesel flow. While the pressure is high, the amount of diesel is very little. It will not spray diesel all over the engine room. You will need to look closely at the towel to check for wetness. If you have fuel to the injectors, the next step is to test the injectors themselves. They must be tested outside of the engine. Did I read you had bad fuel? (I don’t remember if that was you or someone else comment). Is it possible you have clogged all the injectors? This test can be performed when your mechanic is doing the compression check.

 

After these tests you will be able to focus on the true problem area.

 

Also, this might seem like a really dumb question but I have to ask: I am not that familiar with the Volvo. Does it have a kill device such as a stop solenoid, emergency stop device or kill switch? If so, has this been checked to see if it is functioning correctly?

 

 

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Super Maramu 2000

Hull #275

www.creampuff.us

Currently cruising:  St Augustine FL

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 10:06 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 

 

 

Mark, thanks for the suggestions. As you can see this is a perplexing problem and I still do not know the culprit, but I have systematically ruled out many things. We isolated the fuel system by providing an independent day tank, eliminating the boat fuel tank and filters. I am not sure what else external to the engine could be studied. The battery is fine and the ECM is getting good voltage. As you know we replaced the ECM and then returned it.

The Volvo Tech did nothing except sit in the cockpit and watch the Seven Seas mechanic do a couple of tests. I am going to ask for a quote on doing a compression check test. Getting the injectors out does take some time as I have already done that once, and the mounting parts would have to be replaced again. Those parts alone are several hundred dollars. When you figure the labor a compression check will likely cost about $500 to $600. I have already spent nearly $4,000 replacing fuel pumps, high-pressure lines, and servicing the injectors. Maybe the added expense is worth the knowledge, and I concur that a compression check is in order.

Also, we have not cranked the engine with the fuel line to the injectors loosened. That is very risky at the high pressures generated, but we do know that fuel is returning from the injectors? Why do you think WD40 alone would not be enough to cause the engine to cough? If the engine has sufficient compression it should at least try to fire. Continuous spraying into the air intake while cranking did not do anything, and we tried it a couple times.

Jamie

 

 

On Saturday, November 14, 2015 9:28 PM, "'Mark Erdos' mcerdos@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

I have to agree with Bill regarding the fact: What if the issue is external to the engine. Personally I would like to know for certain if the engine is shot, or not.

As for the compression check. I cannot believe the Volvo Tech did not perform this. It is not hard to do and requires only mildly expensive equipment that any good mechanic would regularly carry in their tools. The compression check test each cylinder by removing the injector, attaching the gauge and cranking the engine for about 15 secs per cylinder. It should take less than an hour to test all cylinders. For a problem such as yours it would be very insightful to know if compression, or lack of it, is the issue. If the results confirm you thoughts, you may well be better replacing the engine. But what if you have good compression? If could mean you are on the wrong path of diagnosis. I have read this thread since the first post and have thought this is more likely a fuel problem. Also, you shouldn’t need a Volvo mechanic to do a compression check. Any capable diesel mechanic can do this test.

I asked these questions before but did not see a response. Has the engine been cranked with the fuel line to the injectors loosened and fuel observed leaking out of the end? Are you absolutely certain you have fuel entering the cylinders? I do not think WD40 alone would be enough to cause the engine to cough.

With best regards,

Mark

Super Maramu 2000

Hull #275

www.creampuff.us

Currently cruising: St Augustine, FL

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2015 2:22 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

James,

My take away from all of your posts is that the mechanics and other experts that you have hired have done nothing except throw parts at your engine hoping that the part dejour will solve the problem.

Also, it seems to me that most of the diagnoses that you have written about has come from you and not the people you hired to diagnose the engine non-starting problem.

If you are replacing the engine because you have had a series of people do nothing toward identifying the problem, you could be making another mistake. What if the problem is external of your engine?

I would raise all sorts of hell with Volvo Penta and demand that they identify someone who can give you a diagnoses and a recommended solution. I would also insist on some sort of compensation for parts replaced in error. I am not sure that I would get anywhere with these things, but I would work at it very hard.

If you are not going to do this, do you plan to buy and install a Volvo? And, if you are going to change that engine to Yanmar, you may be looking at all sorts of other issues...the house 24VDC alternator, motor mounts, Vetus coupling, etc.

Just my two cents worth.

One last comment: That boat does not appear to have been maintained properly...probably not neglect, but likely some things were not completely understood by the owner...like the barnacle and marine growth...possibly there was an engine overheating issue...a proper compression test would give you a strong indication of damage. That boat spent a lot of time in Curacao where the barnacles breed like few other places. Gary left most things up to mechanics in marinas rather than being hands-on...and you know the quality of mechanics in marinas...I think you have met some recently.

Bill

BeBe #387

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 6:07 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Kent, I certainly appreciate the input, and I have to agree with you in principle. The engine seems to have expired prematurely, but that 10,000 hours is only realistic if properly maintained. But I have no other explanation, as we have tried almost every possible "solution" to no avail. Many folks have tested, diagnosed, and assessed the engine. I have listened to the engine spin and everyone (including myself) feels that it spins too easily. Spraying WD40 into the air intake should have at least allowed the engine to "cough" or "kick." It did not, and this is not the first time we have tried to inject "fuel" directly into the combustion chambers. I do not know how to explain that except with low compression in at least 2 or more cylinders. Plus, the suction at the intake during cranking seems quite weak.

We have not tried a compression check at this point, since that in itself is a fairly involved process. If we discover anything other than adequate compression, then I am faced with further engine tear down. Even if the compression is good, what then? We have tried almost everything else we could try. The technician did not actually volunteer the possibility that fuel starvation could have caused the problem, but when I explained to him that the engine stopped and failed to restart during sea trial (filters were solid black with contamination), he concluded that lack of fuel "lubrication" could have at least contributed to engine failure. He could not positively identify the problem without further investigation.

At this point I am becoming more and more convinced that there is internal engine damage. Again, I feel that chasing the problem will be quite costly unless I undertake that expedition on my own. I am most weary of fighting with this engine, as it has not run for the last 4 months, and I have already replaced a bunch of parts that have not allowed it to start.

If you do get an opinion from your contacts, I would sure welcome additional inputs.

Thanks, and I do agree with your opinion on Yanmars.............

Jamie Wendell

On Saturday, November 14, 2015 11:56 AM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

He "thinks"??? Has he actually checked compression? I'm skeptical. I wrote to Danny Ramos but he didn't reply, sorry.

If it really is a low compression problem, how does he's explain that fuel starvation caused the problem? Does he explain what he thinks is the problem? Bad rings? Bad valves?

I would guess that engine should be good for 10000 hrs. I'd contact Danny Ramos at Marine Mechanical in Fajardo, PR before I bought a new engine.

If you're set on re powering, look at a new Yanmar. Much easier to work on, get parts, etc.

Kent

SM 243

Kristy



On Nov 14, 2015, at 11:35 AM, ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

I want to thank everyone for the great advice and suggestions regarding my Amel 54 (Phantom) engine "no-start" issue. Since no one has been able to pinpoint the problem, I just had a Volvo Penta factory technician out to survey the situation. He thinks the compression is low on the engine, as it would not fire even as we sprayed WD40 into the intake. Although he had no specific rationale as to the possible cause of this conclusion, he did suggest that earlier fuel-starvation could have caused the problem, stressing the importance of maintaining a clean fuel supply at all times.

I have decided to replace the engine. That will restart the clock with zero hours and a 5-year warranty. The alternative would be to start tearing down the engine to determine the problem. Even if we do find something (blown head gasket, stuck valves, scored cylinders, etc.), chasing this "rebuild" tactic would be a very expensive and time-consuming operation - and it will still be a 9-year-old engine with 2500 hours. Although hugely expensive, a new engine is the only rational option. I do not want to continue chasing "ghosts."

Thanks again for the support.

Jamie Wendell

s/v Phantom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 


JEFFREY KRAUS
 


ms42phantom54@...
 

When we sprayed the WD40, the throttle was in the idle position; however, we have verified the throttle cable is operating OK. I feel that it should have at least "burped."

I am going to do a compression check. For this engine you do not remove the injectors. There are plugs along the side of the engine and you install a special adapter to read each cylinder. My Volvo "dealer" should be able to do this. Many have suggested it is worth the expense to assess the level of compression in the engine, and I agree.

Stuck valves are a possibility, but I wonder how they could stick so suddenly after a perfect 4-day run. I also question how enough of them could seize up to prevent starting. There are 2 exhaust and 2 intake valves on each cylinder driven by overhead camshafts, and I would surmise that several cylinders would have to be out for this to happen. I saw no issues when I had the valve cover off, the cams rotated just fine, and the injectors looked relatively clean, despite the fuel problems I saw during sea trial.

I agree with you about the head gasket - plus, I would expect to see a loss of water in the cooling lines. Scored/broken piston rings also seem like a long shot given that the engine ran just fine earlier - as you pointed out that is not something that is likely to happen all at once.

As I noted earlier in this thread, I replaced the fuel pump and piping, had the injectors checked and serviced, and bypassed the boat fuel system to isolate the engine. The Volvo tech suggested that cleaning injectors was a bad idea as he claimed they lose their lubrication capabilities, but I think most everyone else would disagree with that position.

And yes, there is a stop switch, which is working just fine.

Thanks,
Jamie Wendell


Mark Erdos
 

Let us know the outcome once the compression test is performed. I am very curious about this. I hope the group can help you solve the problem.

 

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Super Maramu 2000

Hull #275

www.creampuff.us

Currently cruising:  St Augustine FL

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 12:32 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 

 

When we sprayed the WD40, the throttle was in the idle position; however, we have verified the throttle cable is operating OK. I feel that it should have at least "burped."

 

I am going to do a compression check. For this engine you do not remove the injectors. There are plugs along the side of the engine and you install a special adapter to read each cylinder. My Volvo "dealer" should be able to do this. Many have suggested it is worth the expense to assess the level of compression in the engine, and I agree.

 

Stuck valves are a possibility, but I wonder how they could stick so suddenly after a perfect 4-day run. I also question how enough of them could seize up to prevent starting. There are 2 exhaust and 2 intake valves on each cylinder driven by overhead camshafts, and I would surmise that several cylinders would have to be out for this to happen. I saw no issues when I had the valve cover off, the cams rotated just fine, and the injectors looked relatively clean, despite the fuel problems I saw during sea trial.

 

I agree with you about the head gasket - plus, I would expect to see a loss of water in the cooling lines. Scored/broken piston rings also seem like a long shot given that the engine ran just fine earlier - as you pointed out that is not something that is likely to happen all at once.

 

As I noted earlier in this thread, I replaced the fuel pump and piping, had the injectors checked and serviced, and bypassed the boat fuel system to isolate the engine. The Volvo tech suggested that cleaning injectors was a bad idea as he claimed they lose their lubrication capabilities, but I think most everyone else would disagree with that position.

 

And yes, there is a stop switch, which is working just fine.

 

Thanks,

Jamie Wendell


Mark Erdos
 

James,

 

DO NOT try to start a diesel engine with starting ether. This will cause serious damage to the engine. Ether’s lower flash point will force the cylinder back before it has reached the full upward motion causing massive internal damage. WD40 is okay but the engine will not “cough” or run unless at full throttle.

 

Jeff is absolutely correct about the injector tips. If you have had bad fuel, this could be an area of concern.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Yacht: Cream Puff

 

www.creampuff.us

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 12:14 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 

 

James,

You mentioned servicing your injectors.

If there was any chance of water in your fuel line, and the water came in contact with the injector tips while running, water is an injector tip destroyer. Doesn't take much.

If the tips are compromised, the only way to start the motor is with starting either, and if it starts, it will barely run, and definitely not under a load.

Water will also destroy (again, you don't need much) your high pressure fuel pump.

At 2500hrs, compression shouldn't be an issue. If you have the 110, it is a low rpm motor (relatively speaking, the 90hp yanmar in Kimberlite (Eric Super Maramu) would generally run around 2000rpms or so. I run my 110 at 1400-1550 for the same performance.

I find it hard to believe you have a compression issue. Even if you did, it wouldn't keep the engine from starting. As Mark pointed out, possibly smoke and rough performance would indicate a possible compression issue. Again, only possibly a compression problem.

Blown injector tips would explain your situation.

Generally electronic motors with an ecm allow for a tech to run injector tests. Easy. Can't say for sure on the Volvo, but it is an electronic Diesel.

I have encountered this exact problem in the past involving a QSL9 electronic diesel aboard another vessel.

Just my 2 cents.

Good luck.

Jeff Spirit 54 #14

 

 

 

On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 10:06 AM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:

 

 

 

 

Mark, thanks for the suggestions. As you can see this is a perplexing problem and I still do not know the culprit, but I have systematically ruled out many things. We isolated the fuel system by providing an independent day tank, eliminating the boat fuel tank and filters. I am not sure what else external to the engine could be studied. The battery is fine and the ECM is getting good voltage. As you know we replaced the ECM and then returned it.

The Volvo Tech did nothing except sit in the cockpit and watch the Seven Seas mechanic do a couple of tests. I am going to ask for a quote on doing a compression check test. Getting the injectors out does take some time as I have already done that once, and the mounting parts would have to be replaced again. Those parts alone are several hundred dollars. When you figure the labor a compression check will likely cost about $500 to $600. I have already spent nearly $4,000 replacing fuel pumps, high-pressure lines, and servicing the injectors. Maybe the added expense is worth the knowledge, and I concur that a compression check is in order.

Also, we have not cranked the engine with the fuel line to the injectors loosened. That is very risky at the high pressures generated, but we do know that fuel is returning from the injectors? Why do you think WD40 alone would not be enough to cause the engine to cough? If the engine has sufficient compression it should at least try to fire. Continuous spraying into the air intake while cranking did not do anything, and we tried it a couple times.

Jamie

 

 

On Saturday, November 14, 2015 9:28 PM, "'Mark Erdos' mcerdos@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

I have to agree with Bill regarding the fact: What if the issue is external to the engine. Personally I would like to know for certain if the engine is shot, or not.

As for the compression check. I cannot believe the Volvo Tech did not perform this. It is not hard to do and requires only mildly expensive equipment that any good mechanic would regularly carry in their tools. The compression check test each cylinder by removing the injector, attaching the gauge and cranking the engine for about 15 secs per cylinder. It should take less than an hour to test all cylinders. For a problem such as yours it would be very insightful to know if compression, or lack of it, is the issue. If the results confirm you thoughts, you may well be better replacing the engine. But what if you have good compression? If could mean you are on the wrong path of diagnosis. I have read this thread since the first post and have thought this is more likely a fuel problem. Also, you shouldn’t need a Volvo mechanic to do a compression check. Any capable diesel mechanic can do this test.

I asked these questions before but did not see a response. Has the engine been cranked with the fuel line to the injectors loosened and fuel observed leaking out of the end? Are you absolutely certain you have fuel entering the cylinders? I do not think WD40 alone would be enough to cause the engine to cough.

With best regards,

Mark

Super Maramu 2000

Hull #275

www.creampuff.us

Currently cruising: St Augustine, FL

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2015 2:22 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

James,

My take away from all of your posts is that the mechanics and other experts that you have hired have done nothing except throw parts at your engine hoping that the part dejour will solve the problem.

Also, it seems to me that most of the diagnoses that you have written about has come from you and not the people you hired to diagnose the engine non-starting problem.

If you are replacing the engine because you have had a series of people do nothing toward identifying the problem, you could be making another mistake. What if the problem is external of your engine?

I would raise all sorts of hell with Volvo Penta and demand that they identify someone who can give you a diagnoses and a recommended solution. I would also insist on some sort of compensation for parts replaced in error. I am not sure that I would get anywhere with these things, but I would work at it very hard.

If you are not going to do this, do you plan to buy and install a Volvo? And, if you are going to change that engine to Yanmar, you may be looking at all sorts of other issues...the house 24VDC alternator, motor mounts, Vetus coupling, etc.

Just my two cents worth.

One last comment: That boat does not appear to have been maintained properly...probably not neglect, but likely some things were not completely understood by the owner...like the barnacle and marine growth...possibly there was an engine overheating issue...a proper compression test would give you a strong indication of damage. That boat spent a lot of time in Curacao where the barnacles breed like few other places. Gary left most things up to mechanics in marinas rather than being hands-on...and you know the quality of mechanics in marinas...I think you have met some recently.

Bill

BeBe #387

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 6:07 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Kent, I certainly appreciate the input, and I have to agree with you in principle. The engine seems to have expired prematurely, but that 10,000 hours is only realistic if properly maintained. But I have no other explanation, as we have tried almost every possible "solution" to no avail. Many folks have tested, diagnosed, and assessed the engine. I have listened to the engine spin and everyone (including myself) feels that it spins too easily. Spraying WD40 into the air intake should have at least allowed the engine to "cough" or "kick." It did not, and this is not the first time we have tried to inject "fuel" directly into the combustion chambers. I do not know how to explain that except with low compression in at least 2 or more cylinders. Plus, the suction at the intake during cranking seems quite weak.

We have not tried a compression check at this point, since that in itself is a fairly involved process. If we discover anything other than adequate compression, then I am faced with further engine tear down. Even if the compression is good, what then? We have tried almost everything else we could try. The technician did not actually volunteer the possibility that fuel starvation could have caused the problem, but when I explained to him that the engine stopped and failed to restart during sea trial (filters were solid black with contamination), he concluded that lack of fuel "lubrication" could have at least contributed to engine failure. He could not positively identify the problem without further investigation.

At this point I am becoming more and more convinced that there is internal engine damage. Again, I feel that chasing the problem will be quite costly unless I undertake that expedition on my own. I am most weary of fighting with this engine, as it has not run for the last 4 months, and I have already replaced a bunch of parts that have not allowed it to start.

If you do get an opinion from your contacts, I would sure welcome additional inputs.

Thanks, and I do agree with your opinion on Yanmars.............

Jamie Wendell

On Saturday, November 14, 2015 11:56 AM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

He "thinks"??? Has he actually checked compression? I'm skeptical. I wrote to Danny Ramos but he didn't reply, sorry.

If it really is a low compression problem, how does he's explain that fuel starvation caused the problem? Does he explain what he thinks is the problem? Bad rings? Bad valves?

I would guess that engine should be good for 10000 hrs. I'd contact Danny Ramos at Marine Mechanical in Fajardo, PR before I bought a new engine.

If you're set on re powering, look at a new Yanmar. Much easier to work on, get parts, etc.

Kent

SM 243

Kristy



On Nov 14, 2015, at 11:35 AM, ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

I want to thank everyone for the great advice and suggestions regarding my Amel 54 (Phantom) engine "no-start" issue. Since no one has been able to pinpoint the problem, I just had a Volvo Penta factory technician out to survey the situation. He thinks the compression is low on the engine, as it would not fire even as we sprayed WD40 into the intake. Although he had no specific rationale as to the possible cause of this conclusion, he did suggest that earlier fuel-starvation could have caused the problem, stressing the importance of maintaining a clean fuel supply at all times.

I have decided to replace the engine. That will restart the clock with zero hours and a 5-year warranty. The alternative would be to start tearing down the engine to determine the problem. Even if we do find something (blown head gasket, stuck valves, scored cylinders, etc.), chasing this "rebuild" tactic would be a very expensive and time-consuming operation - and it will still be a 9-year-old engine with 2500 hours. Although hugely expensive, a new engine is the only rational option. I do not want to continue chasing "ghosts."

Thanks again for the support.

Jamie Wendell

s/v Phantom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 


Jeff Wingfield <ki4jde@...>
 

James:

It still sounds to me as a failed sensor for the common rail. 

Jeff
LAST TANGO


On Nov 15, 2015, at 10:06, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 
Mark, thanks for the suggestions. As you can see this is a perplexing problem and I still do not know the culprit, but I have systematically ruled out many things. We isolated the fuel system by providing an independent day tank, eliminating the boat fuel tank and filters. I am not sure what else external to the engine could be studied. The battery is fine and the ECM is getting good voltage. As you know we replaced the ECM and then returned it.

The Volvo Tech did nothing except sit in the cockpit and watch the Seven Seas mechanic do a couple of tests. I am going to ask for a quote on doing a compression check test. Getting the injectors out does take some time as I have already done that once, and the mounting parts would have to be replaced again. Those parts alone are several hundred dollars. When you figure the labor a compression check will likely cost about $500 to $600. I have already spent nearly $4,000 replacing fuel pumps, high-pressure lines, and servicing the injectors. Maybe the added expense is worth the knowledge, and I concur that a compression check is in order.
Also, we have not cranked the engine with the fuel line to the injectors loosened. That is very risky at the high pressures generated, but we do know that fuel is returning from the injectors? Why do you think WD40 alone would not be enough to cause the engine to cough? If the engine has sufficient compression it should at least try to fire. Continuous spraying into the air intake while cranking did not do anything, and we tried it a couple times.
Jamie



On Saturday, November 14, 2015 9:28 PM, "'Mark Erdos' mcerdos@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
I have to agree with Bill regarding the fact: What if the issue is external to the engine. Personally I would like to know for certain if the engine is shot, or not.

As for the compression check. I cannot believe the Volvo Tech did not perform this. It is not hard to do and requires only mildly expensive equipment that any good mechanic would regularly carry in their tools. The compression check test each cylinder by removing the injector, attaching the gauge and cranking the engine for about 15 secs per cylinder. It should take less than an hour to test all cylinders. For a problem such as yours it would be very insightful to know if compression, or lack of it, is the issue. If the results confirm you thoughts, you may well be better replacing the engine. But what if you have good compression? If could mean you are on the wrong path of diagnosis. I have read this thread since the first post and have thought this is more likely a fuel problem. Also, you shouldn’t need a Volvo mechanic to do a compression check. Any capable diesel mechanic can do this test.

I asked these questions before but did not see a response. Has the engine been cranked with the fuel line to the injectors loosened and fuel observed leaking out of the end? Are you absolutely certain you have fuel entering the cylinders? I do not think WD40 alone would be enough to cause the engine to cough.

With best regards,

Mark

Super Maramu 2000

Hull #275

www.creampuff.us

Currently cruising: St Augustine, FL

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2015 2:22 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

James,

My take away from all of your posts is that the mechanics and other experts that you have hired have done nothing except throw parts at your engine hoping that the part dejour will solve the problem.

Also, it seems to me that most of the diagnoses that you have written about has come from you and not the people you hired to diagnose the engine non-starting problem.

If you are replacing the engine because you have had a series of people do nothing toward identifying the problem, you could be making another mistake. What if the problem is external of your engine?

I would raise all sorts of hell with Volvo Penta and demand that they identify someone who can give you a diagnoses and a recommended solution. I would also insist on some sort of compensation for parts replaced in error. I am not sure that I would get anywhere with these things, but I would work at it very hard.

If you are not going to do this, do you plan to buy and install a Volvo? And, if you are going to change that engine to Yanmar, you may be looking at all sorts of other issues...the house 24VDC alternator, motor mounts, Vetus coupling, etc.

Just my two cents worth.

One last comment: That boat does not appear to have been maintained properly...probably not neglect, but likely some things were not completely understood by the owner...like the barnacle and marine growth...possibly there was an engine overheating issue...a proper compression test would give you a strong indication of damage. That boat spent a lot of time in Curacao where the barnacles breed like few other places. Gary left most things up to mechanics in marinas rather than being hands-on...and you know the quality of mechanics in marinas...I think you have met some recently.

Bill

BeBe #387

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 6:07 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Kent, I certainly appreciate the input, and I have to agree with you in principle. The engine seems to have expired prematurely, but that 10,000 hours is only realistic if properly maintained. But I have no other explanation, as we have tried almost every possible "solution" to no avail. Many folks have tested, diagnosed, and assessed the engine. I have listened to the engine spin and everyone (including myself) feels that it spins too easily. Spraying WD40 into the air intake should have at least allowed the engine to "cough" or "kick." It did not, and this is not the first time we have tried to inject "fuel" directly into the combustion chambers. I do not know how to explain that except with low compression in at least 2 or more cylinders. Plus, the suction at the intake during cranking seems quite weak.

We have not tried a compression check at this point, since that in itself is a fairly involved process. If we discover anything other than adequate compression, then I am faced with further engine tear down. Even if the compression is good, what then? We have tried almost everything else we could try. The technician did not actually volunteer the possibility that fuel starvation could have caused the problem, but when I explained to him that the engine stopped and failed to restart during sea trial (filters were solid black with contamination), he concluded that lack of fuel "lubrication" could have at least contributed to engine failure. He could not positively identify the problem without further investigation.

At this point I am becoming more and more convinced that there is internal engine damage. Again, I feel that chasing the problem will be quite costly unless I undertake that expedition on my own. I am most weary of fighting with this engine, as it has not run for the last 4 months, and I have already replaced a bunch of parts that have not allowed it to start.

If you do get an opinion from your contacts, I would sure welcome additional inputs.

Thanks, and I do agree with your opinion on Yanmars.............

Jamie Wendell

On Saturday, November 14, 2015 11:56 AM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

He "thinks"??? Has he actually checked compression? I'm skeptical. I wrote to Danny Ramos but he didn't reply, sorry.

If it really is a low compression problem, how does he's explain that fuel starvation caused the problem? Does he explain what he thinks is the problem? Bad rings? Bad valves?

I would guess that engine should be good for 10000 hrs. I'd contact Danny Ramos at Marine Mechanical in Fajardo, PR before I bought a new engine.

If you're set on re powering, look at a new Yanmar. Much easier to work on, get parts, etc.

Kent

SM 243

Kristy



On Nov 14, 2015, at 11:35 AM, ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

I want to thank everyone for the great advice and suggestions regarding my Amel 54 (Phantom) engine "no-start" issue. Since no one has been able to pinpoint the problem, I just had a Volvo Penta factory technician out to survey the situation. He thinks the compression is low on the engine, as it would not fire even as we sprayed WD40 into the intake. Although he had no specific rationale as to the possible cause of this conclusion, he did suggest that earlier fuel-starvation could have caused the problem, stressing the importance of maintaining a clean fuel supply at all times.

I have decided to replace the engine. That will restart the clock with zero hours and a 5-year warranty. The alternative would be to start tearing down the engine to determine the problem. Even if we do find something (blown head gasket, stuck valves, scored cylinders, etc.), chasing this "rebuild" tactic would be a very expensive and time-consuming operation - and it will still be a 9-year-old engine with 2500 hours. Although hugely expensive, a new engine is the only rational option. I do not want to continue chasing "ghosts."

Thanks again for the support.

Jamie Wendell

s/v Phantom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




seafeverofcuan@...
 

Jamie,
         I appreciate that this is way off line from all the knowledgeable people trying to help with your problem, but I have been following your thread since the beginning and am reminded of a bizarre experience I had.
I picked up a boat that had been left in a Marina by the owner, it had a small Yanmar which the owner told me had been running perfectly.
I wouldn't start, the engine spun freely so I did all the relevant things that you have done, checking fuel,air filters,etc.
Then I got a mechanic, same story over again and eventually "he thought" it was low compression and the valves needed reseated. Removed the head etc, No difference, next up it was supposed to be piston wear.
By this stage two weeks had passed, the owner was furious that her boat hadn't been delivered, so with nothing to lose, we took the exhaust elbow off and it was blocked solid.
Possibly one more long shot to rule out.
Good luck.
Trevor

Seafever of cuan
SM 425 Redline
Mexico
For sale
2004 $295,000


James Wendell <ms42phantom54@...>
 

Trevor, nothing is out of line when I cannot solve a most frustrating problem with my engine. I will check my system to rule out that possibility.
Thanks for the tip. Everything is on the table.
Jamie



On Monday, November 16, 2015 7:42 AM, "seafeverofcuan@... [amelyachtowners]"


 
Jamie,
         I appreciate that this is way off line from all the knowledgeable people trying to help with your problem, but I have been following your thread since the beginning and am reminded of a bizarre experience I had.
I picked up a boat that had been left in a Marina by the owner, it had a small Yanmar which the owner told me had been running perfectly.
I wouldn't start, the engine spun freely so I did all the relevant things that you have done, checking fuel,air filters,etc.
Then I got a mechanic, same story over again and eventually "he thought" it was low compression and the valves needed reseated. Removed the head etc, No difference, next up it was supposed to be piston wear.
By this stage two weeks had passed, the owner was furious that her boat hadn't been delivered, so with nothing to lose, we took the exhaust elbow off and it was blocked solid.
Possibly one more long shot to rule out.
Good luck.
Trevor

Seafever of cuan
SM 425 Redline
Mexico
For sale
2004 $295,000




Tony Robinson <tonywrobinson51@...>
 

I agree....that's what the problem was on my Volvo D3 - a failed sensor on the end of the common rail. And it also took forever to diagnose.....

Tony Robinson - Catriona R



From: "Jeff Wingfield ki4jde@... [amelyachtowners]"
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
James:

It still sounds to me as a failed sensor for the common rail. 

Jeff
LAST TANGO




On Nov 15, 2015, at 10:06, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
 
Mark, thanks for the suggestions. As you can see this is a perplexing problem and I still do not know the culprit, but I have systematically ruled out many things. We isolated the fuel system by providing an independent day tank, eliminating the boat fuel tank and filters. I am not sure what else external to the engine could be studied. The battery is fine and the ECM is getting good voltage. As you know we replaced the ECM and then returned it.

The Volvo Tech did nothing except sit in the cockpit and watch the Seven Seas mechanic do a couple of tests. I am going to ask for a quote on doing a compression check test. Getting the injectors out does take some time as I have already done that once, and the mounting parts would have to be replaced again. Those parts alone are several hundred dollars. When you figure the labor a compression check will likely cost about $500 to $600. I have already spent nearly $4,000 replacing fuel pumps, high-pressure lines, and servicing the injectors. Maybe the added expense is worth the knowledge, and I concur that a compression check is in order.
Also, we have not cranked the engine with the fuel line to the injectors loosened. That is very risky at the high pressures generated, but we do know that fuel is returning from the injectors? Why do you think WD40 alone would not be enough to cause the engine to cough? If the engine has sufficient compression it should at least try to fire. Continuous spraying into the air intake while cranking did not do anything, and we tried it a couple times.
Jamie



On Saturday, November 14, 2015 9:28 PM, "'Mark Erdos' mcerdos@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
I have to agree with Bill regarding the fact: What if the issue is external to the engine. Personally I would like to know for certain if the engine is shot, or not.

As for the compression check. I cannot believe the Volvo Tech did not perform this. It is not hard to do and requires only mildly expensive equipment that any good mechanic would regularly carry in their tools. The compression check test each cylinder by removing the injector, attaching the gauge and cranking the engine for about 15 secs per cylinder. It should take less than an hour to test all cylinders. For a problem such as yours it would be very insightful to know if compression, or lack of it, is the issue. If the results confirm you thoughts, you may well be better replacing the engine. But what if you have good compression? If could mean you are on the wrong path of diagnosis. I have read this thread since the first post and have thought this is more likely a fuel problem. Also, you shouldn’t need a Volvo mechanic to do a compression check. Any capable diesel mechanic can do this test.

I asked these questions before but did not see a response. Has the engine been cranked with the fuel line to the injectors loosened and fuel observed leaking out of the end? Are you absolutely certain you have fuel entering the cylinders? I do not think WD40 alone would be enough to cause the engine to cough.

With best regards,

Mark

Super Maramu 2000

Hull #275

www.creampuff.us

Currently cruising: St Augustine, FL

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2015 2:22 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

James,

My take away from all of your posts is that the mechanics and other experts that you have hired have done nothing except throw parts at your engine hoping that the part dejour will solve the problem.

Also, it seems to me that most of the diagnoses that you have written about has come from you and not the people you hired to diagnose the engine non-starting problem.

If you are replacing the engine because you have had a series of people do nothing toward identifying the problem, you could be making another mistake. What if the problem is external of your engine?

I would raise all sorts of hell with Volvo Penta and demand that they identify someone who can give you a diagnoses and a recommended solution. I would also insist on some sort of compensation for parts replaced in error. I am not sure that I would get anywhere with these things, but I would work at it very hard.

If you are not going to do this, do you plan to buy and install a Volvo? And, if you are going to change that engine to Yanmar, you may be looking at all sorts of other issues...the house 24VDC alternator, motor mounts, Vetus coupling, etc.

Just my two cents worth.

One last comment: That boat does not appear to have been maintained properly...probably not neglect, but likely some things were not completely understood by the owner...like the barnacle and marine growth...possibly there was an engine overheating issue...a proper compression test would give you a strong indication of damage. That boat spent a lot of time in Curacao where the barnacles breed like few other places. Gary left most things up to mechanics in marinas rather than being hands-on...and you know the quality of mechanics in marinas...I think you have met some recently.

Bill

BeBe #387

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 6:07 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Kent, I certainly appreciate the input, and I have to agree with you in principle. The engine seems to have expired prematurely, but that 10,000 hours is only realistic if properly maintained. But I have no other explanation, as we have tried almost every possible "solution" to no avail. Many folks have tested, diagnosed, and assessed the engine. I have listened to the engine spin and everyone (including myself) feels that it spins too easily. Spraying WD40 into the air intake should have at least allowed the engine to "cough" or "kick." It did not, and this is not the first time we have tried to inject "fuel" directly into the combustion chambers. I do not know how to explain that except with low compression in at least 2 or more cylinders. Plus, the suction at the intake during cranking seems quite weak.

We have not tried a compression check at this point, since that in itself is a fairly involved process. If we discover anything other than adequate compression, then I am faced with further engine tear down. Even if the compression is good, what then? We have tried almost everything else we could try. The technician did not actually volunteer the possibility that fuel starvation could have caused the problem, but when I explained to him that the engine stopped and failed to restart during sea trial (filters were solid black with contamination), he concluded that lack of fuel "lubrication" could have at least contributed to engine failure. He could not positively identify the problem without further investigation.

At this point I am becoming more and more convinced that there is internal engine damage. Again, I feel that chasing the problem will be quite costly unless I undertake that expedition on my own. I am most weary of fighting with this engine, as it has not run for the last 4 months, and I have already replaced a bunch of parts that have not allowed it to start.

If you do get an opinion from your contacts, I would sure welcome additional inputs.

Thanks, and I do agree with your opinion on Yanmars.............

Jamie Wendell

On Saturday, November 14, 2015 11:56 AM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

He "thinks"??? Has he actually checked compression? I'm skeptical. I wrote to Danny Ramos but he didn't reply, sorry.

If it really is a low compression problem, how does he's explain that fuel starvation caused the problem? Does he explain what he thinks is the problem? Bad rings? Bad valves?

I would guess that engine should be good for 10000 hrs. I'd contact Danny Ramos at Marine Mechanical in Fajardo, PR before I bought a new engine.

If you're set on re powering, look at a new Yanmar. Much easier to work on, get parts, etc.

Kent

SM 243

Kristy



On Nov 14, 2015, at 11:35 AM, ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

I want to thank everyone for the great advice and suggestions regarding my Amel 54 (Phantom) engine "no-start" issue. Since no one has been able to pinpoint the problem, I just had a Volvo Penta factory technician out to survey the situation. He thinks the compression is low on the engine, as it would not fire even as we sprayed WD40 into the intake. Although he had no specific rationale as to the possible cause of this conclusion, he did suggest that earlier fuel-starvation could have caused the problem, stressing the importance of maintaining a clean fuel supply at all times.

I have decided to replace the engine. That will restart the clock with zero hours and a 5-year warranty. The alternative would be to start tearing down the engine to determine the problem. Even if we do find something (blown head gasket, stuck valves, scored cylinders, etc.), chasing this "rebuild" tactic would be a very expensive and time-consuming operation - and it will still be a 9-year-old engine with 2500 hours. Although hugely expensive, a new engine is the only rational option. I do not want to continue chasing "ghosts."

Thanks again for the support.

Jamie Wendell

s/v Phantom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






James Wendell <ms42phantom54@...>
 

Tony, how did you figure out that the sensor had failed? When my Volvo guy connected the VODIA tool to the engine and cranked it, it showed about 240 bar of pressure. He also disconnected it (at my insistence) and then checked it with his meter. He told me it showed the correct readings.

There were no error codes on my display or the diagnostics tool.

I could just go ahead and replace it, but it costs about $450. If I have low compression I might be wasting more money.

What did you see on your engine?

Thanks,
Jamie Wendell
s/v Phantom Amel 54



On Thursday, November 19, 2015 3:30 PM, "Tony Robinson tonywrobinson51@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote:


 
I agree....that's what the problem was on my Volvo D3 - a failed sensor on the end of the common rail. And it also took forever to diagnose.....

Tony Robinson - Catriona R


From: "Jeff Wingfield ki4jde@... [amelyachtowners]"
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
James:

It still sounds to me as a failed sensor for the common rail. 

Jeff
LAST TANGO




On Nov 15, 2015, at 10:06, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
 
Mark, thanks for the suggestions. As you can see this is a perplexing problem and I still do not know the culprit, but I have systematically ruled out many things. We isolated the fuel system by providing an independent day tank, eliminating the boat fuel tank and filters. I am not sure what else external to the engine could be studied. The battery is fine and the ECM is getting good voltage. As you know we replaced the ECM and then returned it.

The Volvo Tech did nothing except sit in the cockpit and watch the Seven Seas mechanic do a couple of tests. I am going to ask for a quote on doing a compression check test. Getting the injectors out does take some time as I have already done that once, and the mounting parts would have to be replaced again. Those parts alone are several hundred dollars. When you figure the labor a compression check will likely cost about $500 to $600. I have already spent nearly $4,000 replacing fuel pumps, high-pressure lines, and servicing the injectors. Maybe the added expense is worth the knowledge, and I concur that a compression check is in order.
Also, we have not cranked the engine with the fuel line to the injectors loosened. That is very risky at the high pressures generated, but we do know that fuel is returning from the injectors? Why do you think WD40 alone would not be enough to cause the engine to cough? If the engine has sufficient compression it should at least try to fire. Continuous spraying into the air intake while cranking did not do anything, and we tried it a couple times.
Jamie



On Saturday, November 14, 2015 9:28 PM, "'Mark Erdos' mcerdos@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
I have to agree with Bill regarding the fact: What if the issue is external to the engine. Personally I would like to know for certain if the engine is shot, or not.

As for the compression check. I cannot believe the Volvo Tech did not perform this. It is not hard to do and requires only mildly expensive equipment that any good mechanic would regularly carry in their tools. The compression check test each cylinder by removing the injector, attaching the gauge and cranking the engine for about 15 secs per cylinder. It should take less than an hour to test all cylinders. For a problem such as yours it would be very insightful to know if compression, or lack of it, is the issue. If the results confirm you thoughts, you may well be better replacing the engine. But what if you have good compression? If could mean you are on the wrong path of diagnosis. I have read this thread since the first post and have thought this is more likely a fuel problem. Also, you shouldn’t need a Volvo mechanic to do a compression check. Any capable diesel mechanic can do this test.

I asked these questions before but did not see a response. Has the engine been cranked with the fuel line to the injectors loosened and fuel observed leaking out of the end? Are you absolutely certain you have fuel entering the cylinders? I do not think WD40 alone would be enough to cause the engine to cough.

With best regards,

Mark

Super Maramu 2000

Hull #275

www.creampuff.us

Currently cruising: St Augustine, FL

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2015 2:22 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

James,

My take away from all of your posts is that the mechanics and other experts that you have hired have done nothing except throw parts at your engine hoping that the part dejour will solve the problem.

Also, it seems to me that most of the diagnoses that you have written about has come from you and not the people you hired to diagnose the engine non-starting problem.

If you are replacing the engine because you have had a series of people do nothing toward identifying the problem, you could be making another mistake. What if the problem is external of your engine?

I would raise all sorts of hell with Volvo Penta and demand that they identify someone who can give you a diagnoses and a recommended solution. I would also insist on some sort of compensation for parts replaced in error. I am not sure that I would get anywhere with these things, but I would work at it very hard.

If you are not going to do this, do you plan to buy and install a Volvo? And, if you are going to change that engine to Yanmar, you may be looking at all sorts of other issues...the house 24VDC alternator, motor mounts, Vetus coupling, etc.

Just my two cents worth.

One last comment: That boat does not appear to have been maintained properly...probably not neglect, but likely some things were not completely understood by the owner...like the barnacle and marine growth...possibly there was an engine overheating issue...a proper compression test would give you a strong indication of damage. That boat spent a lot of time in Curacao where the barnacles breed like few other places. Gary left most things up to mechanics in marinas rather than being hands-on...and you know the quality of mechanics in marinas...I think you have met some recently.

Bill

BeBe #387

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 6:07 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Kent, I certainly appreciate the input, and I have to agree with you in principle. The engine seems to have expired prematurely, but that 10,000 hours is only realistic if properly maintained. But I have no other explanation, as we have tried almost every possible "solution" to no avail. Many folks have tested, diagnosed, and assessed the engine. I have listened to the engine spin and everyone (including myself) feels that it spins too easily. Spraying WD40 into the air intake should have at least allowed the engine to "cough" or "kick." It did not, and this is not the first time we have tried to inject "fuel" directly into the combustion chambers. I do not know how to explain that except with low compression in at least 2 or more cylinders. Plus, the suction at the intake during cranking seems quite weak.

We have not tried a compression check at this point, since that in itself is a fairly involved process. If we discover anything other than adequate compression, then I am faced with further engine tear down. Even if the compression is good, what then? We have tried almost everything else we could try. The technician did not actually volunteer the possibility that fuel starvation could have caused the problem, but when I explained to him that the engine stopped and failed to restart during sea trial (filters were solid black with contamination), he concluded that lack of fuel "lubrication" could have at least contributed to engine failure. He could not positively identify the problem without further investigation.

At this point I am becoming more and more convinced that there is internal engine damage. Again, I feel that chasing the problem will be quite costly unless I undertake that expedition on my own. I am most weary of fighting with this engine, as it has not run for the last 4 months, and I have already replaced a bunch of parts that have not allowed it to start.

If you do get an opinion from your contacts, I would sure welcome additional inputs.

Thanks, and I do agree with your opinion on Yanmars.............

Jamie Wendell

On Saturday, November 14, 2015 11:56 AM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

He "thinks"??? Has he actually checked compression? I'm skeptical. I wrote to Danny Ramos but he didn't reply, sorry.

If it really is a low compression problem, how does he's explain that fuel starvation caused the problem? Does he explain what he thinks is the problem? Bad rings? Bad valves?

I would guess that engine should be good for 10000 hrs. I'd contact Danny Ramos at Marine Mechanical in Fajardo, PR before I bought a new engine.

If you're set on re powering, look at a new Yanmar. Much easier to work on, get parts, etc.

Kent

SM 243

Kristy



On Nov 14, 2015, at 11:35 AM, ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

I want to thank everyone for the great advice and suggestions regarding my Amel 54 (Phantom) engine "no-start" issue. Since no one has been able to pinpoint the problem, I just had a Volvo Penta factory technician out to survey the situation. He thinks the compression is low on the engine, as it would not fire even as we sprayed WD40 into the intake. Although he had no specific rationale as to the possible cause of this conclusion, he did suggest that earlier fuel-starvation could have caused the problem, stressing the importance of maintaining a clean fuel supply at all times.

I have decided to replace the engine. That will restart the clock with zero hours and a 5-year warranty. The alternative would be to start tearing down the engine to determine the problem. Even if we do find something (blown head gasket, stuck valves, scored cylinders, etc.), chasing this "rebuild" tactic would be a very expensive and time-consuming operation - and it will still be a 9-year-old engine with 2500 hours. Although hugely expensive, a new engine is the only rational option. I do not want to continue chasing "ghosts."

Thanks again for the support.

Jamie Wendell

s/v Phantom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








Wolfgang Weber <webercardio@...>
 

The volvo is a very common engine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_D5_engine
Why not ask someone who works for cars ?
We have the VW -Marine TDI 140 Hp on our Amel 54. For special services I would not hesitate to
ask someone from a car department.
By the way, did someone use the OBD2 scanner for this motor on the boat ?
Wolgang Weber SY ELISE Amel 54 # 162


Tony Robinson <tonywrobinson51@...>
 

I got caught in a bad electrical storm last year. The engine cut out while I was motoring into the wind when the anchor dragged - in the early hours of the morning of course. It then refused to start. Anyway the local Volvo agent in Corfu came out the next day with all the diagnostic tools including a plug in fault reader. Nothing showed up on the screen, but the engine still wouldn't start. He checked the obvious things first - fuel, filters etc. but still no go. Then he said it was most likely the flywheel sensor and replaced that. It made no difference. He then went off to another D3, and took off all the sensors, including the ECU, and started replacing the sensors on my engine, one by one. It turned out to be the sensor on the common rail.

This is apparently a common fault. Volvo themselves replaced the original common rail sensor with a newer version in the last year or so. I suppose I got lucky in that my engineer had access to another fully operational D3. But all his computers,  meters and pressure gauges were useless in the event and it was only by methodically changing each one that he eventually found the problem.

I still think your issue will eventually be traced to a faulty sensor. Good luck anyway.

Tony.



From: "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]"
To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
Tony, how did you figure out that the sensor had failed? When my Volvo guy connected the VODIA tool to the engine and cranked it, it showed about 240 bar of pressure. He also disconnected it (at my insistence) and then checked it with his meter. He told me it showed the correct readings.

There were no error codes on my display or the diagnostics tool.

I could just go ahead and replace it, but it costs about $450. If I have low compression I might be wasting more money.

What did you see on your engine?

Thanks,
Jamie Wendell
s/v Phantom Amel 54



On Thursday, November 19, 2015 3:30 PM, "Tony Robinson tonywrobinson51@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote:


 
I agree....that's what the problem was on my Volvo D3 - a failed sensor on the end of the common rail. And it also took forever to diagnose.....

Tony Robinson - Catriona R


From: "Jeff Wingfield ki4jde@... [amelyachtowners]"
To: amelyachtowners@...
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 
James:

It still sounds to me as a failed sensor for the common rail. 

Jeff
LAST TANGO




On Nov 15, 2015, at 10:06, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
 
Mark, thanks for the suggestions. As you can see this is a perplexing problem and I still do not know the culprit, but I have systematically ruled out many things. We isolated the fuel system by providing an independent day tank, eliminating the boat fuel tank and filters. I am not sure what else external to the engine could be studied. The battery is fine and the ECM is getting good voltage. As you know we replaced the ECM and then returned it.

The Volvo Tech did nothing except sit in the cockpit and watch the Seven Seas mechanic do a couple of tests. I am going to ask for a quote on doing a compression check test. Getting the injectors out does take some time as I have already done that once, and the mounting parts would have to be replaced again. Those parts alone are several hundred dollars. When you figure the labor a compression check will likely cost about $500 to $600. I have already spent nearly $4,000 replacing fuel pumps, high-pressure lines, and servicing the injectors. Maybe the added expense is worth the knowledge, and I concur that a compression check is in order.
Also, we have not cranked the engine with the fuel line to the injectors loosened. That is very risky at the high pressures generated, but we do know that fuel is returning from the injectors? Why do you think WD40 alone would not be enough to cause the engine to cough? If the engine has sufficient compression it should at least try to fire. Continuous spraying into the air intake while cranking did not do anything, and we tried it a couple times.
Jamie



On Saturday, November 14, 2015 9:28 PM, "'Mark Erdos' mcerdos@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
I have to agree with Bill regarding the fact: What if the issue is external to the engine. Personally I would like to know for certain if the engine is shot, or not.

As for the compression check. I cannot believe the Volvo Tech did not perform this. It is not hard to do and requires only mildly expensive equipment that any good mechanic would regularly carry in their tools. The compression check test each cylinder by removing the injector, attaching the gauge and cranking the engine for about 15 secs per cylinder. It should take less than an hour to test all cylinders. For a problem such as yours it would be very insightful to know if compression, or lack of it, is the issue. If the results confirm you thoughts, you may well be better replacing the engine. But what if you have good compression? If could mean you are on the wrong path of diagnosis. I have read this thread since the first post and have thought this is more likely a fuel problem. Also, you shouldn’t need a Volvo mechanic to do a compression check. Any capable diesel mechanic can do this test.

I asked these questions before but did not see a response. Has the engine been cranked with the fuel line to the injectors loosened and fuel observed leaking out of the end? Are you absolutely certain you have fuel entering the cylinders? I do not think WD40 alone would be enough to cause the engine to cough.

With best regards,

Mark

Super Maramu 2000

Hull #275

www.creampuff.us

Currently cruising: St Augustine, FL

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2015 2:22 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

James,

My take away from all of your posts is that the mechanics and other experts that you have hired have done nothing except throw parts at your engine hoping that the part dejour will solve the problem.

Also, it seems to me that most of the diagnoses that you have written about has come from you and not the people you hired to diagnose the engine non-starting problem.

If you are replacing the engine because you have had a series of people do nothing toward identifying the problem, you could be making another mistake. What if the problem is external of your engine?

I would raise all sorts of hell with Volvo Penta and demand that they identify someone who can give you a diagnoses and a recommended solution. I would also insist on some sort of compensation for parts replaced in error. I am not sure that I would get anywhere with these things, but I would work at it very hard.

If you are not going to do this, do you plan to buy and install a Volvo? And, if you are going to change that engine to Yanmar, you may be looking at all sorts of other issues...the house 24VDC alternator, motor mounts, Vetus coupling, etc.

Just my two cents worth.

One last comment: That boat does not appear to have been maintained properly...probably not neglect, but likely some things were not completely understood by the owner...like the barnacle and marine growth...possibly there was an engine overheating issue...a proper compression test would give you a strong indication of damage. That boat spent a lot of time in Curacao where the barnacles breed like few other places. Gary left most things up to mechanics in marinas rather than being hands-on...and you know the quality of mechanics in marinas...I think you have met some recently.

Bill

BeBe #387

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 6:07 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Kent, I certainly appreciate the input, and I have to agree with you in principle. The engine seems to have expired prematurely, but that 10,000 hours is only realistic if properly maintained. But I have no other explanation, as we have tried almost every possible "solution" to no avail. Many folks have tested, diagnosed, and assessed the engine. I have listened to the engine spin and everyone (including myself) feels that it spins too easily. Spraying WD40 into the air intake should have at least allowed the engine to "cough" or "kick." It did not, and this is not the first time we have tried to inject "fuel" directly into the combustion chambers. I do not know how to explain that except with low compression in at least 2 or more cylinders. Plus, the suction at the intake during cranking seems quite weak.

We have not tried a compression check at this point, since that in itself is a fairly involved process. If we discover anything other than adequate compression, then I am faced with further engine tear down. Even if the compression is good, what then? We have tried almost everything else we could try. The technician did not actually volunteer the possibility that fuel starvation could have caused the problem, but when I explained to him that the engine stopped and failed to restart during sea trial (filters were solid black with contamination), he concluded that lack of fuel "lubrication" could have at least contributed to engine failure. He could not positively identify the problem without further investigation.

At this point I am becoming more and more convinced that there is internal engine damage. Again, I feel that chasing the problem will be quite costly unless I undertake that expedition on my own. I am most weary of fighting with this engine, as it has not run for the last 4 months, and I have already replaced a bunch of parts that have not allowed it to start.

If you do get an opinion from your contacts, I would sure welcome additional inputs.

Thanks, and I do agree with your opinion on Yanmars.............

Jamie Wendell

On Saturday, November 14, 2015 11:56 AM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

He "thinks"??? Has he actually checked compression? I'm skeptical. I wrote to Danny Ramos but he didn't reply, sorry.

If it really is a low compression problem, how does he's explain that fuel starvation caused the problem? Does he explain what he thinks is the problem? Bad rings? Bad valves?

I would guess that engine should be good for 10000 hrs. I'd contact Danny Ramos at Marine Mechanical in Fajardo, PR before I bought a new engine.

If you're set on re powering, look at a new Yanmar. Much easier to work on, get parts, etc.

Kent

SM 243

Kristy



On Nov 14, 2015, at 11:35 AM, ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

I want to thank everyone for the great advice and suggestions regarding my Amel 54 (Phantom) engine "no-start" issue. Since no one has been able to pinpoint the problem, I just had a Volvo Penta factory technician out to survey the situation. He thinks the compression is low on the engine, as it would not fire even as we sprayed WD40 into the intake. Although he had no specific rationale as to the possible cause of this conclusion, he did suggest that earlier fuel-starvation could have caused the problem, stressing the importance of maintaining a clean fuel supply at all times.

I have decided to replace the engine. That will restart the clock with zero hours and a 5-year warranty. The alternative would be to start tearing down the engine to determine the problem. Even if we do find something (blown head gasket, stuck valves, scored cylinders, etc.), chasing this "rebuild" tactic would be a very expensive and time-consuming operation - and it will still be a 9-year-old engine with 2500 hours. Although hugely expensive, a new engine is the only rational option. I do not want to continue chasing "ghosts."

Thanks again for the support.

Jamie Wendell

s/v Phantom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]