Date
1 - 20 of 53
[Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54
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Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
If a reputable engine reconditioner was available a full overhaul head and block is likely to be a whole lot less than a new engine. You have already replaced a number of expensive accessory items. Removing the engine for overhaul does not require the removal and replacement of all the electrical, electronic accessories and instrumentation. There is a bundle of these to the panel by the steering station. I have heard it stated that for budgeting purposes the installation costs of a new motor are generally about equal to the cost of the new motor. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl From: "jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> To: amelyachtowners@... Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 9:33 AM Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54 Jamie, Are you sure you want to rule out taking the head off and inspecting/trying to repair it? Even if you still end up getting a new engine your old one will be worth something second hand and the cost of that work may be recoverable eventually, especially if you get the engine running. Maybe you find any damage is limited to the head? I'm not familar with that engine but any chance it has cylinder liners that can be changed? Maybe also consider getting the engine running or putting the new one in and straight away measure the exhaust back pressure. If it is indeed too high then you also have a reference for how much you can reduce it with changed muffler/shorter hose/larger diameter hose. I haven't read all these posts but maybe part of the problem might be the previous owner leaving the boat for extended periods without running the engine and the problem won't re-occur with more regular running and monitoring? Regarding isolation, some engines are permanently grounded and others have a relay that activates via the ignition otherwise isolates them when they're not running. John. (Maramu #91 Yanmar 75HP, plus 2 other boats - 1 MAN 1000HP. 2 Yanmar 650HP)
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James Wendell <ms42phantom54@...>
Danny, I sure hope you are wrong about the installation costs. A new Volvo Penta D3-110 engine is about $21K, plus any hoses, fittings, muffler, etc. that might be necessary. I cannot see the install costs being more than about $4K to $5K. While granted a bit lighter, I had a brand new Northern Lights generator (with sound shield) "shoehorned" into a very tight space in my old boat, where there was none before, and the install costs (mounting, alignment, exhaust) were less than $3K (I installed the electrical systems and the raw water intake myself). I am budgeting about $30K for the job - that sure hurts just writing down that number. I could have a new truck for that!  There really is not that much to do if I go with the same engine - not sure if I will though. There is lots of work area in the engine room and access is excellent. A different brand would be more work of course. Plus I plan to ready the old one for haul out in advance. I recognize that an overhaul would be less, but certainly close to half the cost of a new engine, and I will still have a questionable engine, even if I do get it running. While the parts would be much less, I feel that the labor to overhaul would definitely be more than that to install a new one. If I am going to do this (I feel I have no real options at this point), it needs to be done correctly, so I can rely on the engine if I travel with the World ARC in 2018. At least that is my goal. I will be getting proposals, so we shall see. Thanks, Jamie s/v Phantom On Thursday, December 3, 2015 3:55 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote: If a reputable engine reconditioner was available a full overhaul head and block is likely to be a whole lot less than a new engine. You have already replaced a number of expensive accessory items. Removing the engine for overhaul does not require the removal and replacement of all the electrical, electronic accessories and instrumentation. There is a bundle of these to the panel by the steering station. I have heard it stated that for budgeting purposes the installation costs of a new motor are generally about equal to the cost of the new motor. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl From: "jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> To: amelyachtowners@... Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 9:33 AM Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54 Jamie, Are you sure you want to rule out taking the head off and inspecting/trying to repair it? Even if you still end up getting a new engine your old one will be worth something second hand and the cost of that work may be recoverable eventually, especially if you get the engine running. Maybe you find any damage is limited to the head? I'm not familar with that engine but any chance it has cylinder liners that can be changed? Maybe also consider getting the engine running or putting the new one in and straight away measure the exhaust back pressure. If it is indeed too high then you also have a reference for how much you can reduce it with changed muffler/shorter hose/larger diameter hose. I haven't read all these posts but maybe part of the problem might be the previous owner leaving the boat for extended periods without running the engine and the problem won't re-occur with more regular running and monitoring? Regarding isolation, some engines are permanently grounded and others have a relay that activates via the ignition otherwise isolates them when they're not running. John. (Maramu #91 Yanmar 75HP, plus 2 other boats - 1 MAN 1000HP. 2 Yanmar 650HP)
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Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
I hope I'm wrong too. Kent has been through it, perhaps he could comment. Regards Danny From: "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" To: "amelyachtowners@..." Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54 Danny, I sure hope you are wrong about the installation costs. A new Volvo Penta D3-110 engine is about $21K, plus any hoses, fittings, muffler, etc. that might be necessary. I cannot see the install costs being more than about $4K to $5K. While granted a bit lighter, I had a brand new Northern Lights generator (with sound shield) "shoehorned" into a very tight space in my old boat, where there was none before, and the install costs (mounting, alignment, exhaust) were less than $3K (I installed the electrical systems and the raw water intake myself). I am budgeting about $30K for the job - that sure hurts just writing down that number. I could have a new truck for that! There really is not that much to do if I go with the same engine - not sure if I will though. There is lots of work area in the engine room and access is excellent. A different brand would be more work of course. Plus I plan to ready the old one for haul out in advance. I recognize that an overhaul would be less, but certainly close to half the cost of a new engine, and I will still have a questionable engine, even if I do get it running. While the parts would be much less, I feel that the labor to overhaul would definitely be more than that to install a new one. If I am going to do this (I feel I have no real options at this point), it needs to be done correctly, so I can rely on the engine if I travel with the World ARC in 2018. At least that is my goal. I will be getting proposals, so we shall see. Thanks, Jamie s/v Phantom On Thursday, December 3, 2015 3:55 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote: If a reputable engine reconditioner was available a full overhaul head and block is likely to be a whole lot less than a new engine. You have already replaced a number of expensive accessory items. Removing the engine for overhaul does not require the removal and replacement of all the electrical, electronic accessories and instrumentation. There is a bundle of these to the panel by the steering station. I have heard it stated that for budgeting purposes the installation costs of a new motor are generally about equal to the cost of the new motor. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl From: "jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners]" To: amelyachtowners@... Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 9:33 AM Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54 Jamie, Are you sure you want to rule out taking the head off and inspecting/trying to repair it? Even if you still end up getting a new engine your old one will be worth something second hand and the cost of that work may be recoverable eventually, especially if you get the engine running. Maybe you find any damage is limited to the head? I'm not familar with that engine but any chance it has cylinder liners that can be changed? Maybe also consider getting the engine running or putting the new one in and straight away measure the exhaust back pressure. If it is indeed too high then you also have a reference for how much you can reduce it with changed muffler/shorter hose/larger diameter hose. I haven't read all these posts but maybe part of the problem might be the previous owner leaving the boat for extended periods without running the engine and the problem won't re-occur with more regular running and monitoring? Regarding isolation, some engines are permanently grounded and others have a relay that activates via the ignition otherwise isolates them when they're not running. John. (Maramu #91 Yanmar 75HP, plus 2 other boats - 1 MAN 1000HP. 2 Yanmar 650HP)
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I re powered with a Yanmar 4JH4HTE 110HP 3 1/2 years ago in Fajardo, Puerto Rico. The total cost was ~$20K, 6K was installation cost. I didn't understand about the electrical isolation of the engine, the bonding system wasn't right, and a fault in my charger/inverter conspired to cause severe electrolytic damage to my prop shaft. That was another $20K. Make sure you understand the Amel electrical system completely and don't let them work on it while you aren't there! In spite of all my trials and tribulations, I LOVE "Yanni", my new Yanmar. I will NEVER own another Volvo! Kent SM243 Kristy On Dec 3, 2015, at 7:25 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
I hope I'm wrong too. Kent has been through it, perhaps he could comment. Regards Danny From: "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...> Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54 Danny, I sure hope you are wrong about the installation costs. A new Volvo Penta D3-110 engine is about $21K, plus any hoses, fittings, muffler, etc. that might be necessary. I cannot see the install costs being more than about $4K to $5K. While granted a bit lighter, I had a brand new Northern Lights generator (with sound shield) "shoehorned" into a very tight space in my old boat, where there was none before, and the install costs (mounting, alignment, exhaust) were less than $3K (I installed the electrical systems and the raw water intake myself). I am budgeting about $30K for the job - that sure hurts just writing down that number. I could have a new truck for that! There really is not that much to do if I go with the same engine - not sure if I will though. There is lots of work area in the engine room and access is excellent. A different brand would be more work of course. Plus I plan to ready the old one for haul out in advance. I recognize that an overhaul would be less, but certainly close to half the cost of a new engine, and I will still have a questionable engine, even if I do get it running. While the parts would be much less, I feel that the labor to overhaul would definitely be more than that to install a new one. If I am going to do this (I feel I have no real options at this point), it needs to be done correctly, so I can rely on the engine if I travel with the World ARC in 2018. At least that is my goal. I will be getting proposals, so we shall see. Thanks, Jamie s/v Phantom On Thursday, December 3, 2015 3:55 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: If a reputable engine reconditioner was available a full overhaul head and block is likely to be a whole lot less than a new engine. You have already replaced a number of expensive accessory items. Removing the engine for overhaul does not require the removal and replacement of all the electrical, electronic accessories and instrumentation. There is a bundle of these to the panel by the steering station. I have heard it stated that for budgeting purposes the installation costs of a new motor are generally about equal to the cost of the new motor. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl From: "jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> To: amelyachtowners@... Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 9:33 AM Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54 Jamie, Are you sure you want to rule out taking the head off and inspecting/trying to repair it? Even if you still end up getting a new engine your old one will be worth something second hand and the cost of that work may be recoverable eventually, especially if you get the engine running. Maybe you find any damage is limited to the head? I'm not familar with that engine but any chance it has cylinder liners that can be changed? Maybe also consider getting the engine running or putting the new one in and straight away measure the exhaust back pressure. If it is indeed too high then you also have a reference for how much you can reduce it with changed muffler/shorter hose/larger diameter hose. I haven't read all these posts but maybe part of the problem might be the previous owner leaving the boat for extended periods without running the engine and the problem won't re-occur with more regular running and monitoring? Regarding isolation, some engines are permanently grounded and others have a relay that activates via the ignition otherwise isolates them when they're not running. John. (Maramu #91 Yanmar 75HP, plus 2 other boats - 1 MAN 1000HP. 2 Yanmar 650HP)
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James Wendell <ms42phantom54@...>
Kent, I think you (plus war stories from others) have convinced me to ditch the Volvo. I can fix most anything if I study it long enough, but not this engine. I and many others have tried now for more than 5 months to identify the problem(s). Not being able to get service is beyond frustration. I have been through 7 different "experts" including the local Volvo tech for the area, who just sat in the cockpit for an hour philosophizing. Plus parts are absolutely ridiculously expensive. I just don't want to take it apart any further to investigate. While it is not the end of the world to take off the head, putting it all back together will be time consuming, even if I do find a simple solution (not likely). Toast or not, I do not want to have to pull out the engine as a bunch of parts. And it would still be a Volvo.........! I know that a much more mainstream Yanmar will be easier to service and get parts, and it will certainly be less expensive. I had one on my old boat and it was very reliable. Lots of folks who can help if need be. Right now I am waiting for proposal options. I am on the hard and fortunately I don't have the kind of problem you had with the prop. I have figured out all the various Amel electrical systems (thanks to all who have warned me about the DC isolation relays Amel has installed), and I agree with your advice about the install. I will be here 125% of the time, doing whatever I can to minimize labor, while still ensuring warranty in the future. Thanks again, Jamie s/v Phantom Amel 54 On Thursday, December 3, 2015 11:03 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote: I re powered with a Yanmar 4JH4HTE 110HP 3 1/2 years ago in Fajardo, Puerto Rico. The total cost was ~$20K, 6K was installation cost. I didn't understand about the electrical isolation of the engine, the bonding system wasn't right, and a fault in my charger/inverter conspired to cause severe electrolytic damage to my prop shaft. That was another $20K. Make sure you understand the Amel electrical system completely and don't let them work on it while you aren't there! In spite of all my trials and tribulations, I LOVE "Yanni", my new Yanmar. I will NEVER own another Volvo! Kent SM243 Kristy On Dec 3, 2015, at 7:25 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
I hope I'm wrong too. Kent has been through it, perhaps he could comment. Regards Danny From: "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...> Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54 Danny, I sure hope you are wrong about the installation costs. A new Volvo Penta D3-110 engine is about $21K, plus any hoses, fittings, muffler, etc. that might be necessary. I cannot see the install costs being more than about $4K to $5K. While granted a bit lighter, I had a brand new Northern Lights generator (with sound shield) "shoehorned" into a very tight space in my old boat, where there was none before, and the install costs (mounting, alignment, exhaust) were less than $3K (I installed the electrical systems and the raw water intake myself). I am budgeting about $30K for the job - that sure hurts just writing down that number. I could have a new truck for that! There really is not that much to do if I go with the same engine - not sure if I will though. There is lots of work area in the engine room and access is excellent. A different brand would be more work of course. Plus I plan to ready the old one for haul out in advance. I recognize that an overhaul would be less, but certainly close to half the cost of a new engine, and I will still have a questionable engine, even if I do get it running. While the parts would be much less, I feel that the labor to overhaul would definitely be more than that to install a new one. If I am going to do this (I feel I have no real options at this point), it needs to be done correctly, so I can rely on the engine if I travel with the World ARC in 2018. At least that is my goal. I will be getting proposals, so we shall see. Thanks, Jamie s/v Phantom On Thursday, December 3, 2015 3:55 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: If a reputable engine reconditioner was available a full overhaul head and block is likely to be a whole lot less than a new engine. You have already replaced a number of expensive accessory items. Removing the engine for overhaul does not require the removal and replacement of all the electrical, electronic accessories and instrumentation. There is a bundle of these to the panel by the steering station. I have heard it stated that for budgeting purposes the installation costs of a new motor are generally about equal to the cost of the new motor. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl From: "jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> To: amelyachtowners@... Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 9:33 AM Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54 Jamie, Are you sure you want to rule out taking the head off and inspecting/trying to repair it? Even if you still end up getting a new engine your old one will be worth something second hand and the cost of that work may be recoverable eventually, especially if you get the engine running. Maybe you find any damage is limited to the head? I'm not familar with that engine but any chance it has cylinder liners that can be changed? Maybe also consider getting the engine running or putting the new one in and straight away measure the exhaust back pressure. If it is indeed too high then you also have a reference for how much you can reduce it with changed muffler/shorter hose/larger diameter hose. I haven't read all these posts but maybe part of the problem might be the previous owner leaving the boat for extended periods without running the engine and the problem won't re-occur with more regular running and monitoring? Regarding isolation, some engines are permanently grounded and others have a relay that activates via the ignition otherwise isolates them when they're not running. John. (Maramu #91 Yanmar 75HP, plus 2 other boats - 1 MAN 1000HP. 2 Yanmar 650HP)
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I got $1200 out of my old Volvo, the guy who put in the new engine sold it for parts and took a 10% commission. Kent On Dec 4, 2015, at 8:26 AM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Kent, I think you (plus war stories from others) have convinced me to ditch the Volvo. I can fix most anything if I study it long enough, but not this engine. I and many others have tried now for more than 5 months to identify the problem(s). Not being able to get service is beyond frustration. I have been through 7 different "experts" including the local Volvo tech for the area, who just sat in the cockpit for an hour philosophizing. Plus parts are absolutely ridiculously expensive. I just don't want to take it apart any further to investigate. While it is not the end of the world to take off the head, putting it all back together will be time consuming, even if I do find a simple solution (not likely). Toast or not, I do not want to have to pull out the engine as a bunch of parts. And it would still be a Volvo.........! I know that a much more mainstream Yanmar will be easier to service and get parts, and it will certainly be less expensive. I had one on my old boat and it was very reliable. Lots of folks who can help if need be. Right now I am waiting for proposal options. I am on the hard and fortunately I don't have the kind of problem you had with the prop. I have figured out all the various Amel electrical systems (thanks to all who have warned me about the DC isolation relays Amel has installed), and I agree with your advice about the install. I will be here 125% of the time, doing whatever I can to minimize labor, while still ensuring warranty in the future. Thanks again, Jamie s/v Phantom Amel 54 On Thursday, December 3, 2015 11:03 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: I re powered with a Yanmar 4JH4HTE 110HP 3 1/2 years ago in Fajardo, Puerto Rico. The total cost was ~$20K, 6K was installation cost. I didn't understand about the electrical isolation of the engine, the bonding system wasn't right, and a fault in my charger/inverter conspired to cause severe electrolytic damage to my prop shaft. That was another $20K. Make sure you understand the Amel electrical system completely and don't let them work on it while you aren't there! In spite of all my trials and tribulations, I LOVE "Yanni", my new Yanmar. I will NEVER own another Volvo! Kent SM243 Kristy On Dec 3, 2015, at 7:25 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: I hope I'm wrong too. Kent has been through it, perhaps he could comment. Regards Danny From: "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...> Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54 Danny, I sure hope you are wrong about the installation costs. A new Volvo Penta D3-110 engine is about $21K, plus any hoses, fittings, muffler, etc. that might be necessary. I cannot see the install costs being more than about $4K to $5K. While granted a bit lighter, I had a brand new Northern Lights generator (with sound shield) "shoehorned" into a very tight space in my old boat, where there was none before, and the install costs (mounting, alignment, exhaust) were less than $3K (I installed the electrical systems and the raw water intake myself). I am budgeting about $30K for the job - that sure hurts just writing down that number. I could have a new truck for that! There really is not that much to do if I go with the same engine - not sure if I will though. There is lots of work area in the engine room and access is excellent. A different brand would be more work of course. Plus I plan to ready the old one for haul out in advance. I recognize that an overhaul would be less, but certainly close to half the cost of a new engine, and I will still have a questionable engine, even if I do get it running. While the parts would be much less, I feel that the labor to overhaul would definitely be more than that to install a new one. If I am going to do this (I feel I have no real options at this point), it needs to be done correctly, so I can rely on the engine if I travel with the World ARC in 2018. At least that is my goal. I will be getting proposals, so we shall see. Thanks, Jamie s/v Phantom On Thursday, December 3, 2015 3:55 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: If a reputable engine reconditioner was available a full overhaul head and block is likely to be a whole lot less than a new engine. You have already replaced a number of expensive accessory items. Removing the engine for overhaul does not require the removal and replacement of all the electrical, electronic accessories and instrumentation. There is a bundle of these to the panel by the steering station. I have heard it stated that for budgeting purposes the installation costs of a new motor are generally about equal to the cost of the new motor. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl From: "jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> To: amelyachtowners@... Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 9:33 AM Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54 Jamie, Are you sure you want to rule out taking the head off and inspecting/trying to repair it? Even if you still end up getting a new engine your old one will be worth something second hand and the cost of that work may be recoverable eventually, especially if you get the engine running. Maybe you find any damage is limited to the head? I'm not familar with that engine but any chance it has cylinder liners that can be changed? Maybe also consider getting the engine running or putting the new one in and straight away measure the exhaust back pressure. If it is indeed too high then you also have a reference for how much you can reduce it with changed muffler/shorter hose/larger diameter hose. I haven't read all these posts but maybe part of the problem might be the previous owner leaving the boat for extended periods without running the engine and the problem won't re-occur with more regular running and monitoring? Regarding isolation, some engines are permanently grounded and others have a relay that activates via the ignition otherwise isolates them when they're not running. John. (Maramu #91 Yanmar 75HP, plus 2 other boats - 1 MAN 1000HP. 2 Yanmar 650HP)
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J Wagamon <jwagam@...>
Have you looked at Beta? If not, you should speak to Stanley at the US facility. He is very knowledgable. I know they also have a rebuilt engine coming available in December. Good Luck Jay Mango On Dec 4, 2015, at 9:15 AM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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James Wendell <ms42phantom54@...>
Kent, what size and vintage was your Volvo? How many hours on it? What failed that made you have to replace it? Thanks, Jamie On Friday, December 4, 2015 9:15 AM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote: I got $1200 out of my old Volvo, the guy who put in the new engine sold it for parts and took a 10% commission. Kent On Dec 4, 2015, at 8:26 AM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Kent, I think you (plus war stories from others) have convinced me to ditch the Volvo. I can fix most anything if I study it long enough, but not this engine. I and many others have tried now for more than 5 months to identify the problem(s). Not being able to get service is beyond frustration. I have been through 7 different "experts" including the local Volvo tech for the area, who just sat in the cockpit for an hour philosophizing. Plus parts are absolutely ridiculously expensive. I just don't want to take it apart any further to investigate. While it is not the end of the world to take off the head, putting it all back together will be time consuming, even if I do find a simple solution (not likely). Toast or not, I do not want to have to pull out the engine as a bunch of parts. And it would still be a Volvo.........! I know that a much more mainstream Yanmar will be easier to service and get parts, and it will certainly be less expensive. I had one on my old boat and it was very reliable. Lots of folks who can help if need be. Right now I am waiting for proposal options. I am on the hard and fortunately I don't have the kind of problem you had with the prop. I have figured out all the various Amel electrical systems (thanks to all who have warned me about the DC isolation relays Amel has installed), and I agree with your advice about the install. I will be here 125% of the time, doing whatever I can to minimize labor, while still ensuring warranty in the future. Thanks again, Jamie s/v Phantom Amel 54 On Thursday, December 3, 2015 11:03 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: I re powered with a Yanmar 4JH4HTE 110HP 3 1/2 years ago in Fajardo, Puerto Rico. The total cost was ~$20K, 6K was installation cost. I didn't understand about the electrical isolation of the engine, the bonding system wasn't right, and a fault in my charger/inverter conspired to cause severe electrolytic damage to my prop shaft. That was another $20K. Make sure you understand the Amel electrical system completely and don't let them work on it while you aren't there! In spite of all my trials and tribulations, I LOVE "Yanni", my new Yanmar. I will NEVER own another Volvo! Kent SM243 Kristy On Dec 3, 2015, at 7:25 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: I hope I'm wrong too. Kent has been through it, perhaps he could comment. Regards Danny From: "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...> Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54 Danny, I sure hope you are wrong about the installation costs. A new Volvo Penta D3-110 engine is about $21K, plus any hoses, fittings, muffler, etc. that might be necessary. I cannot see the install costs being more than about $4K to $5K. While granted a bit lighter, I had a brand new Northern Lights generator (with sound shield) "shoehorned" into a very tight space in my old boat, where there was none before, and the install costs (mounting, alignment, exhaust) were less than $3K (I installed the electrical systems and the raw water intake myself). I am budgeting about $30K for the job - that sure hurts just writing down that number. I could have a new truck for that! There really is not that much to do if I go with the same engine - not sure if I will though. There is lots of work area in the engine room and access is excellent. A different brand would be more work of course. Plus I plan to ready the old one for haul out in advance. I recognize that an overhaul would be less, but certainly close to half the cost of a new engine, and I will still have a questionable engine, even if I do get it running. While the parts would be much less, I feel that the labor to overhaul would definitely be more than that to install a new one. If I am going to do this (I feel I have no real options at this point), it needs to be done correctly, so I can rely on the engine if I travel with the World ARC in 2018. At least that is my goal. I will be getting proposals, so we shall see. Thanks, Jamie s/v Phantom On Thursday, December 3, 2015 3:55 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: If a reputable engine reconditioner was available a full overhaul head and block is likely to be a whole lot less than a new engine. You have already replaced a number of expensive accessory items. Removing the engine for overhaul does not require the removal and replacement of all the electrical, electronic accessories and instrumentation. There is a bundle of these to the panel by the steering station. I have heard it stated that for budgeting purposes the installation costs of a new motor are generally about equal to the cost of the new motor. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl From: "jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> To: amelyachtowners@... Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 9:33 AM Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54 Jamie, Are you sure you want to rule out taking the head off and inspecting/trying to repair it? Even if you still end up getting a new engine your old one will be worth something second hand and the cost of that work may be recoverable eventually, especially if you get the engine running. Maybe you find any damage is limited to the head? I'm not familar with that engine but any chance it has cylinder liners that can be changed? Maybe also consider getting the engine running or putting the new one in and straight away measure the exhaust back pressure. If it is indeed too high then you also have a reference for how much you can reduce it with changed muffler/shorter hose/larger diameter hose. I haven't read all these posts but maybe part of the problem might be the previous owner leaving the boat for extended periods without running the engine and the problem won't re-occur with more regular running and monitoring? Regarding isolation, some engines are permanently grounded and others have a relay that activates via the ignition otherwise isolates them when they're not running. John. (Maramu #91 Yanmar 75HP, plus 2 other boats - 1 MAN 1000HP. 2 Yanmar 650HP)
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James Wendell <ms42phantom54@...>
Does Beta have a 110 HP+ range engine? Jamie On Friday, December 4, 2015 11:06 AM, "J Wagamon jwagam@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote: Have you looked at Beta? If not, you should speak to Stanley at the US facility. He is very knowledgable. I know they also have a rebuilt engine coming available in December. Good Luck Jay Mango On Dec 4, 2015, at 9:15 AM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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It was a 1999 TMD22 78HP. It had abou 5000 hrs on it. I struggled for a couple of years spending thousands on mechanics trying to figure out why I couldn't get over 2000 rpm. Finally got the serial no off the Autoprop and was told by Bruntons that it was what they recommend for the Amel with 100HP Yanmar. I repitched my spare prop which I was also told by a good prop shop was over pitched for my motor. After reducing the pitch to what they recommended, she got right up to 3000rpm. For a season everything was great, then suddenly lost power and saw oil in the water at exhaust...cracked block was the diagnosis by the Caribbean Volvo guru at Marine Mechanical in Fajardo. As an aside, when I told him my plans of world cruising, he recommended I replace it with a Yanmar. Kent SM243 Kristy On Dec 4, 2015, at 1:54 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Kent, what size and vintage was your Volvo? How many hours on it? What failed that made you have to replace it? Thanks, Jamie On Friday, December 4, 2015 9:15 AM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: I got $1200 out of my old Volvo, the guy who put in the new engine sold it for parts and took a 10% commission. Kent On Dec 4, 2015, at 8:26 AM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: Kent, I think you (plus war stories from others) have convinced me to ditch the Volvo. I can fix most anything if I study it long enough, but not this engine. I and many others have tried now for more than 5 months to identify the problem(s). Not being able to get service is beyond frustration. I have been through 7 different "experts" including the local Volvo tech for the area, who just sat in the cockpit for an hour philosophizing. Plus parts are absolutely ridiculously expensive. I just don't want to take it apart any further to investigate. While it is not the end of the world to take off the head, putting it all back together will be time consuming, even if I do find a simple solution (not likely). Toast or not, I do not want to have to pull out the engine as a bunch of parts. And it would still be a Volvo.........! I know that a much more mainstream Yanmar will be easier to service and get parts, and it will certainly be less expensive. I had one on my old boat and it was very reliable. Lots of folks who can help if need be. Right now I am waiting for proposal options. I am on the hard and fortunately I don't have the kind of problem you had with the prop. I have figured out all the various Amel electrical systems (thanks to all who have warned me about the DC isolation relays Amel has installed), and I agree with your advice about the install. I will be here 125% of the time, doing whatever I can to minimize labor, while still ensuring warranty in the future. Thanks again, Jamie s/v Phantom Amel 54 On Thursday, December 3, 2015 11:03 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: I re powered with a Yanmar 4JH4HTE 110HP 3 1/2 years ago in Fajardo, Puerto Rico. The total cost was ~$20K, 6K was installation cost. I didn't understand about the electrical isolation of the engine, the bonding system wasn't right, and a fault in my charger/inverter conspired to cause severe electrolytic damage to my prop shaft. That was another $20K. Make sure you understand the Amel electrical system completely and don't let them work on it while you aren't there! In spite of all my trials and tribulations, I LOVE "Yanni", my new Yanmar. I will NEVER own another Volvo! Kent SM243 Kristy On Dec 3, 2015, at 7:25 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: I hope I'm wrong too. Kent has been through it, perhaps he could comment. Regards Danny From: "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...> Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54 Danny, I sure hope you are wrong about the installation costs. A new Volvo Penta D3-110 engine is about $21K, plus any hoses, fittings, muffler, etc. that might be necessary. I cannot see the install costs being more than about $4K to $5K. While granted a bit lighter, I had a brand new Northern Lights generator (with sound shield) "shoehorned" into a very tight space in my old boat, where there was none before, and the install costs (mounting, alignment, exhaust) were less than $3K (I installed the electrical systems and the raw water intake myself). I am budgeting about $30K for the job - that sure hurts just writing down that number. I could have a new truck for that! There really is not that much to do if I go with the same engine - not sure if I will though. There is lots of work area in the engine room and access is excellent. A different brand would be more work of course. Plus I plan to ready the old one for haul out in advance. I recognize that an overhaul would be less, but certainly close to half the cost of a new engine, and I will still have a questionable engine, even if I do get it running. While the parts would be much less, I feel that the labor to overhaul would definitely be more than that to install a new one. If I am going to do this (I feel I have no real options at this point), it needs to be done correctly, so I can rely on the engine if I travel with the World ARC in 2018. At least that is my goal. I will be getting proposals, so we shall see. Thanks, Jamie s/v Phantom On Thursday, December 3, 2015 3:55 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: If a reputable engine reconditioner was available a full overhaul head and block is likely to be a whole lot less than a new engine. You have already replaced a number of expensive accessory items. Removing the engine for overhaul does not require the removal and replacement of all the electrical, electronic accessories and instrumentation. There is a bundle of these to the panel by the steering station. I have heard it stated that for budgeting purposes the installation costs of a new motor are generally about equal to the cost of the new motor. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl From: "jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> To: amelyachtowners@... Sent: Friday, 4 December 2015 9:33 AM Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54 Jamie, Are you sure you want to rule out taking the head off and inspecting/trying to repair it? Even if you still end up getting a new engine your old one will be worth something second hand and the cost of that work may be recoverable eventually, especially if you get the engine running. Maybe you find any damage is limited to the head? I'm not familar with that engine but any chance it has cylinder liners that can be changed? Maybe also consider getting the engine running or putting the new one in and straight away measure the exhaust back pressure. If it is indeed too high then you also have a reference for how much you can reduce it with changed muffler/shorter hose/larger diameter hose. I haven't read all these posts but maybe part of the problem might be the previous owner leaving the boat for extended periods without running the engine and the problem won't re-occur with more regular running and monitoring? Regarding isolation, some engines are permanently grounded and others have a relay that activates via the ignition otherwise isolates them when they're not running. John. (Maramu #91 Yanmar 75HP, plus 2 other boats - 1 MAN 1000HP. 2 Yanmar 650HP)
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seafeverofcuan@...
Before Jamie commits himself to spending another fortune changing his engine, could we marshall the collective brains and wisdom on this forum to figure out if he is going the right way.
Most SM owners are Yanmar fans - how could you not be - Amel know this, yet they deliberately chose to install Volvo in the 54. Every single 54 owner that I have met has told me the same to salient points. There is less stowage in a 54 than a SM and they really didn't want a Volvo but they had to take it with the boat Amel bring out the 55 and what are the engine choices Styer or Volvo?? When I asked Amel directly about this, they said that there was not a suitable engine in the Yanmar range for the 54 yet I stood on board a 54 in La Rochelle and saw with my own eyes a Volkswagen diesel engine in a 54! My own view is that Yanmar would be first choice every time, but in Jamie's case especially after the nightmare Kent has gone through, will the engine align,is it too high, will the gearbox work even with an adaptor plate on the bell housing, there is also a unique Amel damper plate on the Yanmar flywheel, is the shaft the same length and will the brake be in the same place? I believe that Jamie understands all that is involved with rewiring etc. but how will this effect the long term value of the boat, especially as he will be at the bottom of a very deep financial hole at the end of this. This must be one of the most discussed topics ever on the forum and I feel we all owe it to him to chip in our two cents worth. Trevor Seafever |
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jjjk12s@...
My two cents.
Engines are inanimate objects even if they drive you to the stage that you think they have it in for you. The temptation can be to get rid of the thing before it drives you mad. But just like health issues proper diagnosis and treatment should work unless the hours are just too high or there's been terrible maintenance or catastrophic failure.
A repaired engine "should" be just as good as a new one....even new ones have problems. I have 2 new 650HP Yanmars on a boat this year. One of them had a faulty fuel return line initially diagnosed by a noise at idle coming from cylinder 5. Recalibrating the fuel pump, inspecting the valves and piston etc all occured before the problem was identidied and the engine was fixed. And it was brand new.
Don't underestimate the complexity of changing the brand of engine - hidden problems and costs. Out of the frying pan and into the fire....
I'm a Yanmar fan and but some Yanmars engines made in Europe, some Volvos in Japan etc... not that much difference in brands to warrant the complexity of changing. The Amel 54 is an awesome boat. Volvo has long been standard in top boats, Swan, Hallberg-Rassy and many others. Jamie's been unlucky but only he has the full picture..
John
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VLADIMIR SONSEV
James, We are very sorry for your engine troubles. Do not rush with replacement of Volvo to Yanmar. There are happy Volvo engine owners. New Yanmar now using similar technology an on your Volvo. On Dec 4, 2015 8:56 AM, "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Patrick McAneny
I am not an authority on engine design , but I can attest to the fact that I have had two Volvos in my Amel , and my previous boat for a total of about 22 years and thousands of engine hours and have never had any problems. I can not comment on costs of parts and service, for I have had little need for either. I have been told that the Volvo was a Perkins, and that they have proved to be very dependable engines in cars and trucks in Europe. I figure any engine can have problems . Have the Volvos really been that trouble prone and the Yanmars trouble free ? What specifically is the flaw in the Volvo design I need to be concerned with ?
Pat
SM #123
-----Original Message----- From: Vladimir Sonsev sonsev52@... [amelyachtowners] To: amelyachtowners Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2015 4:56 am Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54 James,
We are very sorry for your engine troubles. Do not rush with replacement of Volvo to Yanmar. There are happy Volvo engine owners. New Yanmar now using similar technology an on your Volvo.
On Dec 4, 2015 8:56 AM, "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Hi Pat. I don't know if older Volvos have more problems than Yanmars. I do know how difficult it is to find mechanics who like working on Volvos, and how parts are often not stocked in the Caribbean, and seem outrageously expensive. The newer Volvos have a lot of electronics designed to make them more efficient and "green", and troubleshooting them is apparently very difficult. If Yanmar is doing the same thing with their new engines, I'd guess that they will have similar problems. My experience has jaded my thoughts about Volvos, but it also says something that the Volvo guru in Puerto Rico recommended that I repower with a Yanmar if I was going to cruise in isolated corners of the globe. Kent SM 243 Kristy On Dec 5, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
I am not an authority on engine design , but I can attest to the fact that I have had two Volvos in my Amel , and my previous boat for a total of about 22 years and thousands of engine hours and have never had any problems. I can not comment on costs of parts and service, for I have had little need for either. I have been told that the Volvo was a Perkins, and that they have proved to be very dependable engines in cars and trucks in Europe. I figure any engine can have problems . Have the Volvos really been that trouble prone and the Yanmars trouble free ? What specifically is the flaw in the Volvo design I need to be concerned with ?
Pat
SM #123
-----Original Message-----
From: Vladimir Sonsev sonsev52@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...> Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2015 4:56 am Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54 James,
We are very sorry for your engine troubles. Do not rush with replacement of Volvo to Yanmar. There are happy Volvo engine owners. New Yanmar now using similar technology an on your Volvo.
On Dec 4, 2015 8:56 AM, "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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J Wagam <jwagam@...>
They make an engine they call the 105. It is naturally aspirated and puts out 100hp at 2800 RPMs with an even power band. Here it is: http://www.betamarinenc.com/index.php/engines/?next=26 They use a Kubota engine so parts are easy to source. My dock neighbor has one in a cramped Hallberg Rassy and loves it. Customer service is also excellent in his opinion since he can call and get the builder on the phone. Good Luck Jay On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 1:55 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Patrick McAneny
Kent, It may be the electronics , not the basic engine that is the problem. With all the Volvos out there, it seems odd that parts aren't available , I have heard they are expensive, fortunately I only remember buying an oil pressure sender and a timing belt. I guess I have been lucky ! It was great seeing you again when you stopped by in Oct. , maybe next time it won't rain for three days.
Pat
SM Shenanigans
-----Original Message----- From: Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] To: amelyachtowners Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2015 10:05 am Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54 Hi Pat. I don't know if older Volvos have more problems than Yanmars. I do know how difficult it is to find mechanics who like working on Volvos, and how parts are often not stocked in the Caribbean, and seem outrageously expensive.
The newer Volvos have a lot of electronics designed to make them more efficient and "green", and troubleshooting them is apparently very difficult. If Yanmar is doing the same thing with their new engines, I'd guess that they will have similar problems.
My experience has jaded my thoughts about Volvos, but it also says something that the Volvo guru in Puerto Rico recommended that I repower with a Yanmar if I was going to cruise in isolated corners of the globe.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy
On Dec 5, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: I am not an authority on engine design , but I can attest to the fact that I have had two Volvos in my Amel , and my previous boat for a total of about 22 years and thousands of engine hours and have never had any problems. I can not comment on costs of parts and service, for I have had little need for either. I have been told that the Volvo was a Perkins, and that they have proved to be very dependable engines in cars and trucks in Europe. I figure any engine can have problems . Have the Volvos really been that trouble prone and the Yanmars trouble free ? What specifically is the flaw in the Volvo design I need to be concerned with ?
Pat
SM #123
-----Original Message-----
From: Vladimir Sonsev sonsev52@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...> Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2015 4:56 am Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54 James,
We are very sorry for your engine troubles. Do not rush with replacement of Volvo to Yanmar. There are happy Volvo engine owners. New Yanmar now using similar technology an on your Volvo.
On Dec 4, 2015 8:56 AM, "James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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joseph mc donnell
I think that the big problem with volvo marine engines, is the move to the common rail design. Remember that their marine engines are a small part of their buisness, so their supply of base engines are now probably all common rail. Even in road vehicles there has been major issues with this type of engine (I know of one Toyota with a common rail engine, which had 2 engines changed under warranty and I've had to change one fuel pump in my BMW). So I'm wondering if the common rail engines are really suited to a cruising boat with the added problems of the marine enviroment. If not, is there a more traditional aspirated or turbo 110Hp engine alternative.
Joe |
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jjjk12s@...
Electronic fuel pump management on boats can bring in an area of lesser reliability. On the larger Yanmars at least, and I presume still on the latest smaller ones, they have mechanical fuel pumps whereas competitors have electronic. The reason for this I have been told is that to comply with IMO tier 2 emissions most manufacturers need to electronically control the fuel pump whereas Yanmar has a patented combustion chamber design that allows the emissions to comply, so doesn't need the elctronic management.
John |
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Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
John, Which model and hull# Amel do you own? Bill BeBe #387 On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 8:10 PM, jjjk12s@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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