[Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Rig Tuning
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Patrick McAneny
Joel, That was interesting , its good to hear confirmation of what you believe to be true. Could you address the backstays, I have never kept them nearly as tight and have gathered that they are not suppose to be. Could you comment on how tight is right .
Thanks Joel,
Pat
SM Shenanigans -----Original Message----- From: n33077@... [amelyachtowners] To: amelyachtowners Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2016 9:22 am Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Rig Tuning I think I just found it:
o understand why the rig tension on an Amel is so very different than on other fiberglass boats, we must first consider and understand the structural differences that Amel boats have compared to more ordinary boats from other builders. Amel boats are true monocoque structures. An egg is a perfect monocoque structure, as an illustration. If you take an egg and place it in the palm of your hand, wrap your fingers around it evenly, and then squeeze as hard as you possibly can, it will not break. Go ahead, off to the fridge you go...I'll wait. See what I mean? Only if you "point load"/unequally squeeze the egg will it crush. Great party trick by the way... Recall the recent story about Eric Freedman and being inside his Amel offshore in hurricane wind and seas; not a sound inside. No creaking or groaning. No oil canning. No panel deflection... Amel boats are one piece, no conventional hull to deck joint, they are very strong and uncommonly rigid. They are a genuine monocoque. On most fiberglass boats, the rig is tuned tight but when sailing, the leeward shrouds flop around like al dente spaghetti while the windward shrouds are tight as a drum. This is due primarily because of hull flex. Even the better known "premium brands", you know who they are, have this flexing in the hull. THIS IS NOT GOOD. Fiberglass, just like metal, gets weaker and weaker every time it is bent or flexed. Just as when one takes a paperclip and bends it back and forth a few times and it breaks in two, a flexed fiberglass hull gets weaker with use. Amel boats are designed not to flex for good reason; they stay stronger and last longer that way. The rigging needs to be exceptionally tight as well for reasons I'll relate shortly. Riggers will never believe this as it is contrary to what they know to be usual and correct. Unless a rigger unfamiliar with and not accepting of Amel idiosyncrasies can put his hands on an Amel that has been tuned by Amel, they will never believe and will refuse to tune an Amel to the tension that is required. An Amel should be tuned so that the mast is absolutely straight and perpendicular to the mast step/90 degrees. The shrouds should never be loose on the leeward side even under the press of strong breeze. Just a tad slack, but not loose and certainly not able to be moved back and forth. The headstay should only have a very modest bend even in a good breeze. I have tuned many Amel rigs and I can do it but it is hard to tell you how tight is "tight". I don't use a strain gauge, I just do it. I was a rigger in an earlier life so I know the sequence to follow to get the right outcome but it is difficult to impart to you how tight. REAL tight. Tight as you dare then a tad more. Ringing bronze tight...ahh, what's the use...... Try to find an Amel that is owned by someone we (Amel and or me) sold a boat to. We impress upon our new clients and my second hand boat clients to take note of how tight the rig is and to keep it this way. They usually do. Second only perhaps to mechanics who call all flaming irate to tell me that the Amel drive system will never work (once or twice a month sometimes) are the riggers who call to say the rig is way too tight or to insist they won't tighten it up the way we tell them too. It is the "not invented here syndrome" all over again. Ain't what I am familiar with so there-fore it can't possibly work...Sometimes they say uncharitable things about my ancestors... What's the risk? Plenty. If the rig is loose, it can move around. Combine wave action and puffy breeze and the rig can pump and move around inches with tremendously quick acceleration and sudden deceleration of all the rigging mass. This can more than double the ultimate load placed on the rig and all the components. It will loosen the boat up real quick. As mentioned before, that is not good for the structure. Just imagine accelerated pulling/jolting on all the rig points with wire connections; kinda like squeezing that egg unevenly, no? Hmmmm... Show this to your rigger. Have him call me if he says fiddlesticks. Better yet have him call Amel. They may be a bit more, uh, forceful than me (if that's possible...) but from the horses' mouth the truth shall flow. Maybe they will believe the builder as they seldom think I have it right. Best is to let them see a properly tuned Amel rig. After new rigging is installed, Amel tuned tight, and sailed in heavy breeze and seas, it will stretch as much as 8% and even more dependent on the wire quality. Tune it tight again, then put the little bolts and nuts back in the wire ends inside the turnbuckles (bet you wondered why Amel does that..) and smile. You will only need to very occasionally retune rig components as once it is right, it doesn't move, it NEVER pumps, and it stays as it was meant to by God, Captain Amel, and the entire Amel team. Me too. Trust me on this or put your hands on a well kept Amel. Have fun with your Maramu. They are very sweet sea boats. All the best, Joel Joel F. Potter - Cruising Yacht Specialist, LLC Amel's Sole Associate for the Americas 401 East Las Olas Boulevard, #130-126 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301 Phone: (954) 462-5869 Email: jfpottercys@... <http://www.yachtworld.com/jfpottercys> Joel F. Potter - Cruising Yacht Specialist, LLC (Fort Lauderdale, FL) |
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amelforme
Hey Pat. There is also a very good rig tune instructional that I believe was placed in the Yahoo group from Olivier.
Good question on the mizzen backstays. When you tune the rig, tune the main and mizzen INDEPENDANTLY from each other. Straight up and down vertically. Use the headstay and main backstay, NOT the triatic, to get the rig in column and the headstay tight, do NOT use the triatic. Adjust the triatic last. It should be just tight enough to remove all sloppiness but not pull any part of the rig anywhere. Jacques Carteau told me it is not really needed structurally and is mainly an antennae. He said that the insulators used to make it an antennae were chosen by their fairly weak design strength which would theoretically allow them to fail in case of over tension before the main or mizzen masts could initiate a rigging failure of eithers rigging.
The mizzen should be tuned only with the upper and lower shrouds. Again, tight and straight up and down. Tension the split backstays to have an ‘easy inch or two’ of slack . These are ‘limiters’ that should arrest excessive mizzen mast movement but they should not pull any part of the rig anywhere. If they are too tight the first thing you will notice is stress cracks where the mizzen backstays attach at the transom… these cracks can also come from having the headstay/backstay tension relationship on the main mast too loose allowing it to “pump” in certain wind/sea conditions which subjects the entire rig to dangerous inertial loading. Eventually, just about every one of the hundreds of Super Maramu’s I have sold and resold manifest some slight cracking at the transom due to the fact that the transom is an “insert” laminated into the boat after it comes out of the mold instead of being part of the structural monocoque that the entire rest of the hull and deck assembly represent. This is also the reason one needs to reinforce the transom with fore though and professional assistance if it is used to support davits or an arch as it was not designed to ever do so.
Just as marine tech’s unfamiliar with the Amel DC electrical system ( which is, essentially, exactly the same as what is found on most aluminum boats where ANY electrolytic action can be quickly terminal ) say it is overly complex and then proceed to corrupt it with disastrous results, most riggers say that the rig should not be as tight as we espouse here. Usually I can discuss the big picture with them and the light might go on in their heads, but not always. In the three day school I offer my clients after the purchase of their “new to them” Amel, I spend a great deal of time explaining the Amel characteristics that are not mainstream so that when they need repairs in the future, the Amel owner is well equipped to discern if the tech they are hopefully “interviewing” is capable of making a correct repair and not instigating a potential catastrophe.
Certainly, I don’t know it all. None of us do. But I am fortunate that Amel insisted that I know their boats technically as well as from a features/how to sell standpoint. I am happy to help with anything I am able to if I am asked.
Have fun with your Amel.
All The Best, Joel Joel F. Potter/Cruising Yacht Specialist LLC THE EXPERIENCED AMEL GUY 954 462 5869 office 954 812 2485 cell
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Thank you again and again, Joel, for sharing your expertise here. That's the first time I've heard this about the mizzen back stays. My masts are straight and my mizzen back stays are about what you describe, but I assure you that it's more luck than a thorough understanding of how it should be done. All the best, Kent SM 243 Kristy On Mar 3, 2016, at 9:29 AM, 'Joel Potter' jfpottercys@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Hey Pat. There is also a very good rig tune instructional that I believe was placed in the Yahoo group from Olivier.
Good question on the mizzen backstays. When you tune the rig, tune the main and mizzen INDEPENDANTLY from each other. Straight up and down vertically. Use the headstay and main backstay, NOT the triatic, to get the rig in column and the headstay tight, do NOT use the triatic. Adjust the triatic last. It should be just tight enough to remove all sloppiness but not pull any part of the rig anywhere. Jacques Carteau told me it is not really needed structurally and is mainly an antennae. He said that the insulators used to make it an antennae were chosen by their fairly weak design strength which would theoretically allow them to fail in case of over tension before the main or mizzen masts could initiate a rigging failure of eithers rigging.
The mizzen should be tuned only with the upper and lower shrouds. Again, tight and straight up and down. Tension the split backstays to have an ‘easy inch or two’ of slack . These are ‘limiters’ that should arrest excessive mizzen mast movement but they should not pull any part of the rig anywhere. If they are too tight the first thing you will notice is stress cracks where the mizzen backstays attach at the transom… these cracks can also come from having the headstay/backstay tension relationship on the main mast too loose allowing it to “pump” in certain wind/sea conditions which subjects the entire rig to dangerous inertial loading. Eventually, just about every one of the hundreds of Super Maramu’s I have sold and resold manifest some slight cracking at the transom due to the fact that the transom is an “insert” laminated into the boat after it comes out of the mold instead of being part of the structural monocoque that the entire rest of the hull and deck assembly represent. This is also the reason one needs to reinforce the transom with fore though and professional assistance if it is used to support davits or an arch as it was not designed to ever do so.
Just as marine tech’s unfamiliar with the Amel DC electrical system ( which is, essentially, exactly the same as what is found on most aluminum boats where ANY electrolytic action can be quickly terminal ) say it is overly complex and then proceed to corrupt it with disastrous results, most riggers say that the rig should not be as tight as we espouse here. Usually I can discuss the big picture with them and the light might go on in their heads, but not always. In the three day school I offer my clients after the purchase of their “new to them” Amel, I spend a great deal of time explaining the Amel characteristics that are not mainstream so that when they need repairs in the future, the Amel owner is well equipped to discern if the tech they are hopefully “interviewing” is capable of making a correct repair and not instigating a potential catastrophe.
Certainly, I don’t know it all. None of us do. But I am fortunate that Amel insisted that I know their boats technically as well as from a features/how to sell standpoint. I am happy to help with anything I am able to if I am asked.
Have fun with your Amel.
All The Best, Joel Joel F. Potter/Cruising Yacht Specialist LLC THE EXPERIENCED AMEL GUY 954 462 5869 office 954 812 2485 cell
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rossienio@...
I read it with great interest, thanks. But I still have this problem : the upper part of my main mast is curved towards the bow (reverse bend). And I can not fix it by tighening the backstay. Could someone tell me what I to do? Good winds. enio
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Patrick McAneny
Joel, Thanks for your reply and confirming what I believed, but did not know , the proper backstay tension.
Pat
SM Shenanigans
-----Original Message----- From: 'Joel Potter' jfpottercys@... [amelyachtowners] To: amelyachtowners Sent: Thu, Mar 3, 2016 9:29 am Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Rig Tuning Hey Pat. There is also a very good rig tune instructional that I believe was placed in the Yahoo group from Olivier.
Good question on the mizzen backstays. When you tune the rig, tune the main and mizzen INDEPENDANTLY from each other. Straight up and down vertically. Use the headstay and main backstay, NOT the triatic, to get the rig in column and the headstay tight, do NOT use the triatic. Adjust the triatic last. It should be just tight enough to remove all sloppiness but not pull any part of the rig anywhere. Jacques Carteau told me it is not really needed structurally and is mainly an antennae. He said that the insulators used to make it an antennae were chosen by their fairly weak design strength which would theoretically allow them to fail in case of over tension before the main or mizzen masts could initiate a rigging failure of eithers rigging.
The mizzen should be tuned only with the upper and lower shrouds. Again, tight and straight up and down. Tension the split backstays to have an ‘easy inch or two’ of slack . These are ‘limiters’ that should arrest excessive mizzen mast movement but they should not pull any part of the rig anywhere. If they are too tight the first thing you will notice is stress cracks where the mizzen backstays attach at the transom… these cracks can also come from having the headstay/backstay tension relationship on the main mast too loose allowing it to “pump” in certain wind/sea conditions which subjects the entire rig to dangerous inertial loading. Eventually, just about every one of the hundreds of Super Maramu’s I have sold and resold manifest some slight cracking at the transom due to the fact that the transom is an “insert” laminated into the boat after it comes out of the mold instead of being part of the structural monocoque that the entire rest of the hull and deck assembly represent. This is also the reason one needs to reinforce the transom with fore though and professional assistance if it is used to support davits or an arch as it was not designed to ever do so.
Just as marine tech’s unfamiliar with the Amel DC electrical system ( which is, essentially, exactly the same as what is found on most aluminum boats where ANY electrolytic action can be quickly terminal ) say it is overly complex and then proceed to corrupt it with disastrous results, most riggers say that the rig should not be as tight as we espouse here. Usually I can discuss the big picture with them and the light might go on in their heads, but not always. In the three day school I offer my clients after the purchase of their “new to them” Amel, I spend a great deal of time explaining the Amel characteristics that are not mainstream so that when they need repairs in the future, the Amel owner is well equipped to discern if the tech they are hopefully “interviewing” is capable of making a correct repair and not instigating a potential catastrophe.
Certainly, I don’t know it all. None of us do. But I am fortunate that Amel insisted that I know their boats technically as well as from a features/how to sell standpoint. I am happy to help with anything I am able to if I am asked.
Have fun with your Amel.
All The Best, Joel
Joel F. Potter/Cruising Yacht Specialist LLC
THE EXPERIENCED AMEL GUY
954 462 5869 office
954 812 2485 cell
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amelforme
Have you tried loosening the head stay? Joel F. Potter THE EXPERIENCED AMEL GUY 954-812-2485 On Mar 3, 2016, at 12:05 PM, rossienio@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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rossienio@...
Yes, and 'wath i'm doing, but becomes to loose the triatic, which has a fixed lenght, and the main mast seems to bend at the lower spreads. This also tightening the lower shrouds aft..........Thanks. Enio
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Hello Enio,
You may want to reread Joel's earlier post about tuning the masts independently, starting with the main. You should consider the triatic to be part of the mizzen and ignore it until you get the main straight and tight. Beyond that it is a little difficult to understand what the problem is. Have you tried slacking all the stays and seeing if the mast is straight? If it is straight with no tension on the stays, you should be able to keep it so as you tension the stays in the order Joel specified. Keep the triatic slack (by loosening the mizzen backs) until you are done with the main. If it is still bent with all stays loose, perhaps it was bent by a yard at some point when it was off the boat (just guessing) - take it down and bend it back so it is straight. Let us know how you make out. Craig Briggs, SN68 Sangaris, Florida ---In amelyachtowners@..., <rossienio@...> wrote : Yes, and 'wath i'm doing, but becomes to loose the triatic, which has a fixed lenght, and the main mast seems to bend at the lower spreads. This also tightening the lower shrouds aft..........Thanks. Enio |
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hanspeter baettig
Hello Craig I like your wordings :-) Take the mast down, bend it back so it is straight. I'm wondering how you will do that ? You have something invented in the US to do that. Let me know that is interessting :-) Good sailing, and don't take that to serious Hanspeter SM 16 Tamango 2 Von meinem iPad gesendet
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Hi Hanspeter,
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Quite easy, actually. Assuming it was bent while off the boat in a yard, just do the opposite of what bent it in the first place! :-) Seriously, though, I've bent several masts back into column when they got bent in the yard - usually by cars accidentally backing into them. Just a matter of applying enough force on the opposite side with logical blocking and cushioning. Usually used a fork lift truck to slowly apply pressure. Obviously, you can't go past the point of elastic deformation. That being said, I'll bet this is not Enio's problem - he likely just needs a more systematic approach to the tuning. Cheers, Craig SN68 Sangaris ---In amelyachtowners@..., <hanspeter.baettig@...> wrote : Hello Craig I like your wordings :-) Take the mast down, bend it back so it is straight. I'm wondering how you will do that ? You have something invented in the US to do that. Let me know that is interessting :-) Good sailing, and don't take that to serious Hanspeter SM 16 Tamango 2 Von meinem iPad gesendet
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hanspeter baettig
Hi Craig Sounds pretty cool. Now I understand your trick. Thanks. Cheers Hanspeter Von meinem iPad gesendet
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rossienio@...
Hi Craigh, I think my problem of reverse bend of the upper part of main mast, is due to a DEFORMATION produced by having kept too straight the forestay and the backstay too slow with strong winds.
Now I have losened the forestay, I put a rope as babystay that attaches to the crosses high and tight the backstay. So the mast seems ok, I hope that the mast remains that way even without baby. Greetings to all and i hope you understand wath I mean in Elglish. Regards. Enio |
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Hi Enio,
Yes, it would be much easier if we should all spoke each others language! But I think I understand you. Let us know what happens when you remove the rope baby stay. I do think you should not have to use the baby stay to tune your rig - if you loosen everything, including the lowers, your mast should be straight. Is it? Cheers, Craig SN68 Sangaris ---In amelyachtowners@..., <rossienio@...> wrote : Hi Craigh, I think my problem of reverse bend of the upper part of main mast, is due to a DEFORMATION produced by having kept too straight the forestay and the backstay too slow with strong winds. Now I have losened the forestay, I put a rope as babystay that attaches to the crosses high and tight the backstay. So the mast seems ok, I hope that the mast remains that way even without baby. Greetings to all and i hope you understand wath I mean in Elglish. Regards. Enio |
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rossienio@...
Thanks Craigh for your attention. At week end I'll be in the boat and , if weather is good, i try to loose everything, then i'll write the resut.regards Enio
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