[Amel Yacht Owners] Bowthruster propeller shaft seal on SM


Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Hello Ian,

The same happened to me and I think it is because I forgot to add the Permatex on the outside of the seal...

Since I just lost the Bow Thruster propeller (twice in a day), I will overhaul it within the next week and see if this is the cause.
http://nikimat.com/bow_thruster_overhaul.html

Sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Private Slip, Marina Puerto Bahia, Samana, Dominican Republic




--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 3/19/16, Ian & Judy ianjudyjenkins@hotmail.com [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bowthruster propeller shaft seal on SM
To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Saturday, March 19, 2016, 7:40 AM


 













Hi y'all,
                 We have changed the seal on our
bowthruster prop shaft twice in the last season and even
with an application of sealant it still leaks oil,
slowly.



Has anyone experience of



1. Replacing the prop shaft? or,



2. Using an SKF Speediseal on the  existing shaft ?



 Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302, Preveza,Greece



















#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001 --
#yiv9394361001ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mkp #yiv9394361001hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mkp #yiv9394361001ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mkp .yiv9394361001ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mkp .yiv9394361001ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mkp .yiv9394361001ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9394361001ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9394361001ygrp-lc #yiv9394361001hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9394361001ygrp-lc .yiv9394361001ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001activity span
.yiv9394361001underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9394361001 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9394361001 dd.yiv9394361001last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9394361001 dd.yiv9394361001last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9394361001 dd.yiv9394361001last p
span.yiv9394361001yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv9394361001 div.yiv9394361001attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9394361001 div.yiv9394361001attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv9394361001 div.yiv9394361001file-title a, #yiv9394361001
div.yiv9394361001file-title a:active, #yiv9394361001
div.yiv9394361001file-title a:hover, #yiv9394361001
div.yiv9394361001file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9394361001 div.yiv9394361001photo-title a,
#yiv9394361001 div.yiv9394361001photo-title a:active,
#yiv9394361001 div.yiv9394361001photo-title a:hover,
#yiv9394361001 div.yiv9394361001photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9394361001 div#yiv9394361001ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv9394361001ygrp-msg p a span.yiv9394361001yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv9394361001 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv9394361001 input, #yiv9394361001 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv9394361001
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mlmsg #yiv9394361001logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}


#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-msg
p#yiv9394361001attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-reco
#yiv9394361001reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-sponsor #yiv9394361001ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-sponsor #yiv9394361001ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-sponsor #yiv9394361001ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv9394361001


ianjenkins1946 <ianjudyjenkins@hotmail.com>
 

Hi Alexandre,
That is a superb photo record. Thank you.
I had added the Permatex after I had replaced the seal, rather than pushing the seal in place with Permtaex on its outside edge. I will retry.

However, I had assumed that the oil was leaking from between the shaft and the lip of the seal ( twin lips on my seals ) and that that was caused by a groove worn in the shaft, although over the years we have spent very little time in marinas and harbours where the bowthruster has been needed, and so we have not used it much.

I will experiment and report back at the end of the season.

Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM302, Greece

________________________________________
From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@rocketmail.com [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 19 March 2016 13:43
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bowthruster propeller shaft seal on SM

Hello Ian,

The same happened to me and I think it is because I forgot to add the Permatex on the outside of the seal...

Since I just lost the Bow Thruster propeller (twice in a day), I will overhaul it within the next week and see if this is the cause.
http://nikimat.com/bow_thruster_overhaul.html

Sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Private Slip, Marina Puerto Bahia, Samana, Dominican Republic




--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 3/19/16, Ian & Judy ianjudyjenkins@hotmail.com [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bowthruster propeller shaft seal on SM
To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Saturday, March 19, 2016, 7:40 AM
















Hi y'all,
We have changed the seal on our
bowthruster prop shaft twice in the last season and even
with an application of sealant it still leaks oil,
slowly.



Has anyone experience of



1. Replacing the prop shaft? or,



2. Using an SKF Speediseal on the existing shaft ?



Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302, Preveza,Greece



















#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001 --
#yiv9394361001ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mkp #yiv9394361001hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mkp #yiv9394361001ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mkp .yiv9394361001ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mkp .yiv9394361001ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mkp .yiv9394361001ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9394361001ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9394361001ygrp-lc #yiv9394361001hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9394361001ygrp-lc .yiv9394361001ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001activity span
.yiv9394361001underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9394361001 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9394361001 dd.yiv9394361001last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9394361001 dd.yiv9394361001last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9394361001 dd.yiv9394361001last p
span.yiv9394361001yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv9394361001 div.yiv9394361001attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9394361001 div.yiv9394361001attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv9394361001 div.yiv9394361001file-title a, #yiv9394361001
div.yiv9394361001file-title a:active, #yiv9394361001
div.yiv9394361001file-title a:hover, #yiv9394361001
div.yiv9394361001file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9394361001 div.yiv9394361001photo-title a,
#yiv9394361001 div.yiv9394361001photo-title a:active,
#yiv9394361001 div.yiv9394361001photo-title a:hover,
#yiv9394361001 div.yiv9394361001photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9394361001 div#yiv9394361001ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv9394361001ygrp-msg p a span.yiv9394361001yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv9394361001 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv9394361001 .yiv9394361001replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv9394361001 input, #yiv9394361001 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv9394361001
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-mlmsg #yiv9394361001logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}


#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-msg
p#yiv9394361001attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-reco
#yiv9394361001reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-sponsor #yiv9394361001ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-sponsor #yiv9394361001ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-sponsor #yiv9394361001ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv9394361001 #yiv9394361001ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv9394361001


------------------------------------
Posted by: Alexandre Uster von Baar <uster@rocketmail.com>
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


yahoogroups@...
 

Ian,

Two lips?? Did you buy a seal with one lip out and one lip in?

If so, that is the cause of your leak. Research this and you will understand.

Bill
BeBe 387


ianjenkins1946 <ianjudyjenkins@hotmail.com>
 

Bill,

Thanks. That seems counterintuitive--I had assumed that one lip good, two better! The description on the one I fitted was TCI ( I think the T stands for Twin ) " Double Lip with Bi Directional Feature."
Is this what you mean by " One lip in, one lip out"?
I had assumed that the Bi Directional would mean that the seal worked both to keep the sea out and the oil in, but from your comment that wouldn't seem to be beneficial. I will have a look. You live and learn.

Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302 Greece

________________________________________
From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of yahoogroups@svbebe.com [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 19 March 2016 16:57
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bowthruster propeller shaft seal on SM

Ian,

Two lips?? Did you buy a seal with one lip out and one lip in?

If so, that is the cause of your leak. Research this and you will understand.

Bill
BeBe 387



------------------------------------
Posted by: yahoogroups@svbebe.com
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Ian,

I think that you will find that even though double lip sounds like double the sealing, it is not

On a double lip seal only one lip of a double lip is the fluid sealing lip...and grease is required between the lips. The other lip of a double lip seal is designed to keep solid contaminants out of the sealed area. So, the design does not accomplish what you might think it does and if not installed correctly with grease between the lips, the seal will fail. Additionally, I think that you will find the lips of a double lip seal smaller than a single lip.

Double Lip Seals are the subject of many "boat/marine myth" stories perpetuated by experts at websites like Cruisers Forum and YBW...so when you research this, stay away from opinions and look for the facts.

The last thing that I will add is that if a double lip seal was better, don't you think that is what Captain Amel would have used? It is always dangerous to attempt to improve on what the Captain did.

Bill
BeBe 387
Currently St. Lucia


On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 12:32 PM, Ian & Judy ianjudyjenkins@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill,

Thanks. That seems counterintuitive--I had assumed that one lip good, two better! The description on the one I fitted was TCI ( I think the T stands for Twin ) " Double Lip with Bi Directional Feature."
Is this what you mean by " One lip in, one lip out"?
I had assumed that the Bi Directional would mean that the seal worked both to keep the sea out and the oil in, but from your comment that wouldn't seem to be beneficial. I will have a look. You live and learn.

Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302 Greece

________________________________________
From: amelyachtowners@... <amelyachtowners@...> on behalf of yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: 19 March 2016 16:57
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bowthruster propeller shaft seal on SM

Ian,

Two lips?? Did you buy a seal with one lip out and one lip in?

If so, that is the cause of your leak. Research this and you will understand.

Bill
BeBe 387

------------------------------------
Posted by: yahoogroups@...
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links



ianjenkins1946 <ianjudyjenkins@hotmail.com>
 

Bill,

              Thanks. Yes, always good to fall back on what the man himself would have done.


Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302 Greece




From: amelyachtowners@... on behalf of 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]
Sent: 20 March 2016 14:59
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bowthruster propeller shaft seal on SM
 


Ian,

I think that you will find that even though double lip sounds like double the sealing, it is not

On a double lip seal only one lip of a double lip is the fluid sealing lip...and grease is required between the lips. The other lip of a double lip seal is designed to keep solid contaminants out of the sealed area. So, the design does not accomplish what you might think it does and if not installed correctly with grease between the lips, the seal will fail. Additionally, I think that you will find the lips of a double lip seal smaller than a single lip.

Double Lip Seals are the subject of many "boat/marine myth" stories perpetuated by experts at websites like Cruisers Forum and YBW...so when you research this, stay away from opinions and look for the facts.

The last thing that I will add is that if a double lip seal was better, don't you think that is what Captain Amel would have used? It is always dangerous to attempt to improve on what the Captain did.

Bill
BeBe 387
Currently St. Lucia


On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 12:32 PM, Ian & Judy ianjudyjenkins@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill,

Thanks. That seems counterintuitive--I had assumed that one lip good, two better! The description on the one I fitted was TCI ( I think the T stands for Twin ) " Double Lip with Bi Directional Feature."
Is this what you mean by " One lip in, one lip out"?
I had assumed that the Bi Directional would mean that the seal worked both to keep the sea out and the oil in, but from your comment that wouldn't seem to be beneficial. I will have a look. You live and learn.

Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302 Greece

________________________________________
From: amelyachtowners@... <amelyachtowners@...> on behalf of yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: 19 March 2016 16:57
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bowthruster propeller shaft seal on SM

Ian,

Two lips?? Did you buy a seal with one lip out and one lip in?

If so, that is the cause of your leak. Research this and you will understand.

Bill
BeBe 387

------------------------------------
Posted by: yahoogroups@...
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links





Paul Osterberg
 

Hello!
Alexandre
I also lost my bow-thruster propeller after overhauling the whole thruster with new bearings and lip seal.
When in the water I used it less than 5 seconds and suddenly the revs went up on the motor. There was nothing in the water to get into the propellar so I do not know the cause. When taken out the thurster shaft I found no propellar, but the center piece with still three of the nylon screws on. Strange that means that the whole center of the propellar that should be the most massive part has burst into pieces. Can it be a miss in the production?
Paul on S/Y Kerpa


Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Good morning Paul,

I haven’t posted the detail on the forum yet, but I found both propeller with the 6 nylon bold still attached to it… there was also nothing in the water to cause the failure.
To me it looks like the thread on the hubs holding the nylon bold failed…
Since I used that same hub and propeller, I don’t think it is a production issue, but rather an age/ware issue (of the hub).
By the center part of the propeller burst into pieces, do you mean the propeller itself? Or (what I call) the hub on which the nylon screws are bolt on?
Sincerely, Alexandre





--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 3/21/16, osterberg.paul.l@gmail.com [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bowthruster propeller shaft seal on SM
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 4:55 AM


 









Hello!AlexandreI also lost my
bow-thruster propeller after overhauling the whole thruster
with new bearings and lip seal.When in the water
I used it less than 5 seconds and suddenly the revs went up
on the motor. There was nothing in the water to get into the
propellar so I do not know the cause. When taken out the
thurster shaft I found no propellar, but the center piece
with still three of the nylon screws on. Strange that means
that the whole center of the propellar that should be the
most massive part has burst into pieces. Can it be a miss in
the production?Paul on S/Y Kerpa










#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413 --
#yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp #yiv5030878413hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp #yiv5030878413ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp .yiv5030878413ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp .yiv5030878413ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp .yiv5030878413ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5030878413ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5030878413ygrp-lc #yiv5030878413hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5030878413ygrp-lc .yiv5030878413ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413activity span
.yiv5030878413underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5030878413 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5030878413 dd.yiv5030878413last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5030878413 dd.yiv5030878413last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5030878413 dd.yiv5030878413last p
span.yiv5030878413yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413file-title a, #yiv5030878413
div.yiv5030878413file-title a:active, #yiv5030878413
div.yiv5030878413file-title a:hover, #yiv5030878413
div.yiv5030878413file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413photo-title a,
#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413photo-title a:active,
#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413photo-title a:hover,
#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5030878413 div#yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv5030878413ygrp-msg p a span.yiv5030878413yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv5030878413 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv5030878413 input, #yiv5030878413 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv5030878413
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg #yiv5030878413logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}


#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-msg
p#yiv5030878413attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-reco
#yiv5030878413reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-sponsor #yiv5030878413ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-sponsor #yiv5030878413ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-sponsor #yiv5030878413ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv5030878413


Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Alex,

I know that you know this, but you did not mention the stainless steel pin that goes through the hub.

If that pin was inserted through the Delrin® hub and thruster shaft before the propeller was screwed to the hub, what happened to the pin??? 

You said that you found "both propeller with the 6 nylon bol(t) still attached to it." If the nylon bolts were attached to the propeller, they had to still be screwed into the hub, or else, the bolts would fall out...right?

I am confused.

Alex & Paul,
I wonder if there are some out-of-spec hubs being made and distributed? Do you know the origin of your hub. I seem to remember that one owner had some hubs machined out of Nylon rather than Delrin® and they fell apart rapidly.

Bill

Bill
BeBe 387

On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 12:46 PM, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Good morning Paul,

I haven’t posted the detail on the forum yet, but I found both propeller with the 6 nylon bold still attached to it… there was also nothing in the water to cause the failure.
To me it looks like the thread on the hubs holding the nylon bold failed…
Since I used that same hub and propeller, I don’t think it is a production issue, but rather an age/ware issue (of the hub).
By the center part of the propeller burst into pieces, do you mean the propeller itself? Or (what I call) the hub on which the nylon screws are bolt on?
Sincerely, Alexandre

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 3/21/16, osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bowthruster propeller shaft seal on SM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 4:55 AM


 









Hello!AlexandreI also lost my
bow-thruster propeller after overhauling the whole thruster
with new bearings and lip seal.When in the water
I used it less than 5 seconds and suddenly the revs went up
on the motor. There was nothing in the water to get into the
propellar so I do not know the cause. When taken out the
thurster shaft I found no propellar, but the center piece
with still three of the nylon screws on. Strange that means
that the whole center of the propellar that should be the
most massive part has burst into pieces. Can it be a miss in
the production?Paul on S/Y Kerpa










#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413 --
#yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp #yiv5030878413hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp #yiv5030878413ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp .yiv5030878413ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp .yiv5030878413ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp .yiv5030878413ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5030878413ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5030878413ygrp-lc #yiv5030878413hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5030878413ygrp-lc .yiv5030878413ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413activity span
.yiv5030878413underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5030878413 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5030878413 dd.yiv5030878413last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5030878413 dd.yiv5030878413last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5030878413 dd.yiv5030878413last p
span.yiv5030878413yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413file-title a, #yiv5030878413
div.yiv5030878413file-title a:active, #yiv5030878413
div.yiv5030878413file-title a:hover, #yiv5030878413
div.yiv5030878413file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413photo-title a,
#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413photo-title a:active,
#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413photo-title a:hover,
#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5030878413 div#yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv5030878413ygrp-msg p a span.yiv5030878413yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv5030878413 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv5030878413 input, #yiv5030878413 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv5030878413
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg #yiv5030878413logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}


#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-msg
p#yiv5030878413attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-reco
#yiv5030878413reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-sponsor #yiv5030878413ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-sponsor #yiv5030878413ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-sponsor #yiv5030878413ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv5030878413



Paul Osterberg
 

Alexandre!
It was the propeller itself, the nylon hub with the screws was total intakt except three of he nylon screws that was broken
Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259


Paul Osterberg
 

Bill!
The hub and propeller was from a common friend in Turkey, Nothing wrong with the hub, but the propeller has obvious gone into pieces, as it was still three nylon screws intact on the hub.

Paul
Kerpa 259


Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Paul,

You say, "..as it was still three nylon screws intact on the hub."

Was the hub still on the shaft of the bow thruster and the propeller broke off of the hub? I have seen this happen before with a propeller from Amel. But possibly this propeller was from somewhere else.

There was a SM in Gocek which had been owned by a friend of mine from Chile. He sold it to a Turkish guy and it is now in Boston and owned by Bill Maffei. 

Anyway, my friend's son was in the surfboard manufacturing business and made 5 or 6 bow thruster propellers for his father. He had promised me one of those propellers, but when the new owner took possession, he could not find any of the propellers. There may be no connection.

I bought a bow thruster propeller in Gocek, but it is obviously from Amel.

Let me know the color of the propeller that fell apart.

Bill
BeBe 387

On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:56 PM, osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill!

The hub and propeller was from a common friend in Turkey, Nothing wrong with the hub, but the propeller has obvious gone into pieces, as it was still three nylon screws intact on the hub.

Paul
Kerpa 259



Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Good morning Bill,

First time I dove the hub was still on the Delrin Hub (the pin was gone, slide out)

When I put on spare the propeller I put a new pin and new Nylon bold.
I was able to use the bow thruster for 4 burst of 4 second each, then lost it again.

But before I write more in it for now, I want to document the incident, show pictures, etc. explain step by step everything.

Paul, interesting with the propeller being burst apart…

Sincerely, Alexandre



--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 3/21/16, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@svbebe.com [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bowthruster propeller shaft seal on SM
To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 8:42 AM


 









Alex,
I know that you know this, but you
did not mention the stainless steel pin that
goes through the hub.
If that pin was inserted through the
Delrin® hub and thruster shaft before the propeller was
screwed to the hub, what happened to the
pin??? 
You said that
you found "both propeller with the 6 nylon bol(t)
still attached to it." If the nylon bolts were attached
to the propeller, they had to still be screwed into the hub,
or else, the bolts would fall out...right?
I am confused.
Alex &
Paul,I wonder if there are some
out-of-spec hubs being made and distributed? Do you know the
origin of your hub. I seem to remember that one owner had
some hubs machined out of Nylon rather than Delrin® and
they fell apart rapidly.
Bill
BillBeBe
387
On Mon,
Mar 21, 2016 at 12:46 PM, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@rocketmail.com
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:















 









Good morning Paul,



I haven’t posted the detail on the forum yet, but I found
both propeller with the 6 nylon bold still attached to it…
there was also nothing in the water to cause the failure.


To me it looks like the thread on the hubs holding the nylon
bold failed…

Since I used that same hub and propeller, I don’t think it
is a production issue, but rather an age/ware issue (of the
hub).

By the center part of the propeller burst into pieces, do
you mean the propeller itself? Or (what I call) the hub on
which the nylon screws are bolt on?

Sincerely, Alexandre



--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 3/21/16, osterberg.paul.l@gmail.com
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:



Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bowthruster propeller shaft
seal on SM

To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com

Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 4:55 AM





 



















Hello!AlexandreI also lost my

bow-thruster propeller after overhauling the whole
thruster

with new bearings and lip seal.When in the water

I used it less than 5 seconds and suddenly the revs went
up

on the motor. There was nothing in the water to get into
the

propellar so I do not know the cause. When taken out the

thurster shaft I found no propellar, but the center
piece

with still three of the nylon screws on. Strange that
means

that the whole center of the propellar that should be
the

most massive part has burst into pieces. Can it be a miss
in

the production?Paul on S/Y Kerpa





















#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413 --

#yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp {

border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px

0;padding:0 10px;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp hr {

border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp #yiv5030878413hd
{

color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px

0;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp #yiv5030878413ads
{

margin-bottom:10px;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp .yiv5030878413ad {

padding:0 0;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp .yiv5030878413ad p
{

margin:0;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mkp .yiv5030878413ad a
{

color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-sponsor

#yiv5030878413ygrp-lc {

font-family:Arial;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-sponsor

#yiv5030878413ygrp-lc #yiv5030878413hd {

margin:10px

0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-sponsor

#yiv5030878413ygrp-lc .yiv5030878413ad {

margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413actions {

font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413activity {

background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413activity span {

font-weight:700;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413activity span:first-child {

text-transform:uppercase;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413activity span a {

color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413activity span span {

color:#ff7900;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413activity span

.yiv5030878413underline {

text-decoration:underline;}



#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413attach {

clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px

0;width:400px;}



#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413attach div a {

text-decoration:none;}



#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413attach img {

border:none;padding-right:5px;}



#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413attach label {

display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}



#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413attach label a {

text-decoration:none;}



#yiv5030878413 blockquote {

margin:0 0 0 4px;}



#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413bold {

font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}



#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413bold a {

text-decoration:none;}



#yiv5030878413 dd.yiv5030878413last p a {

font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}



#yiv5030878413 dd.yiv5030878413last p span {

margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}



#yiv5030878413 dd.yiv5030878413last p

span.yiv5030878413yshortcuts {

margin-right:0;}



#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413attach-table div div a {

text-decoration:none;}



#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413attach-table {

width:400px;}



#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413file-title a,
#yiv5030878413

div.yiv5030878413file-title a:active, #yiv5030878413

div.yiv5030878413file-title a:hover, #yiv5030878413

div.yiv5030878413file-title a:visited {

text-decoration:none;}



#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413photo-title a,

#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413photo-title a:active,

#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413photo-title a:hover,

#yiv5030878413 div.yiv5030878413photo-title a:visited {

text-decoration:none;}



#yiv5030878413 div#yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg

#yiv5030878413ygrp-msg p a span.yiv5030878413yshortcuts
{

font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}



#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413green {

color:#628c2a;}



#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413MsoNormal {

margin:0 0 0 0;}



#yiv5030878413 o {

font-size:0;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413photos div {

float:left;width:72px;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413photos div div {

border:1px solid

#666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413photos div label {

color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413reco-category {

font-size:77%;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413reco-desc {

font-size:77%;}



#yiv5030878413 .yiv5030878413replbq {

margin:4px;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-actbar div a:first-child
{

margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg {

font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,

sans-serif;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg table {

font-size:inherit;font:100%;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg select,

#yiv5030878413 input, #yiv5030878413 textarea {

font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg pre,
#yiv5030878413

code {

font:115% monospace;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg * {

line-height:1.22em;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-mlmsg #yiv5030878413logo
{

padding-bottom:10px;}





#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-msg p a {

font-family:Verdana;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-msg

p#yiv5030878413attach-count span {

color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-reco

#yiv5030878413reco-head {

color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-reco {

margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5030878413ov

li a {

font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5030878413ov

li {

font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5030878413ov

ul {

margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-text {

font-family:Georgia;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-text p {

margin:0 0 1em 0;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-text tt {

font-size:120%;}



#yiv5030878413 #yiv5030878413ygrp-vital ul li:last-child
{

border-right:none !important;

}

#yiv5030878413

































#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804 --
#yiv5667207804ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-mkp #yiv5667207804hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-mkp #yiv5667207804ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-mkp .yiv5667207804ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-mkp .yiv5667207804ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-mkp .yiv5667207804ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5667207804ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5667207804ygrp-lc #yiv5667207804hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-sponsor
#yiv5667207804ygrp-lc .yiv5667207804ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804activity span
.yiv5667207804underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv5667207804 .yiv5667207804attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv5667207804 .yiv5667207804attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5667207804 .yiv5667207804attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv5667207804 .yiv5667207804attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv5667207804 .yiv5667207804attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5667207804 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv5667207804 .yiv5667207804bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5667207804 .yiv5667207804bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5667207804 dd.yiv5667207804last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5667207804 dd.yiv5667207804last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5667207804 dd.yiv5667207804last p
span.yiv5667207804yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv5667207804 div.yiv5667207804attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5667207804 div.yiv5667207804attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv5667207804 div.yiv5667207804file-title a, #yiv5667207804
div.yiv5667207804file-title a:active, #yiv5667207804
div.yiv5667207804file-title a:hover, #yiv5667207804
div.yiv5667207804file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5667207804 div.yiv5667207804photo-title a,
#yiv5667207804 div.yiv5667207804photo-title a:active,
#yiv5667207804 div.yiv5667207804photo-title a:hover,
#yiv5667207804 div.yiv5667207804photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5667207804 div#yiv5667207804ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv5667207804ygrp-msg p a span.yiv5667207804yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv5667207804 .yiv5667207804green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv5667207804 .yiv5667207804MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv5667207804 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv5667207804 .yiv5667207804replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv5667207804 input, #yiv5667207804 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv5667207804
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-mlmsg #yiv5667207804logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}


#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-msg
p#yiv5667207804attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-reco
#yiv5667207804reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-sponsor #yiv5667207804ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-sponsor #yiv5667207804ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-sponsor #yiv5667207804ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv5667207804 #yiv5667207804ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv5667207804