[Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Globe Run Dry Impellers
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Hi Bill,
The ONAN pump is made by Sherwood, but it's made in 2 pieces, the one I put on is also Sherwood but a one-piece casting - Sherwood sell it as a direct replacement. I see no difference in run time hours between the standard impeller and the GLOBE impeller. n=1 is not a good study, ever ! Cheers Alan Elyse SM437, Vuda Pt Marina, FIJI |
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Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
Alan, I am 99% sure that the Onan OEM pump is made by Sherwood. I think that you should do what you feel is right, but I know how smart you are and I know that you realize that one example without a problem statistically proves nothing. I believe that if you did nothing except buy only OEM impellers (no Globe), and you changed the impeller every 200 hours or two years, that you would not have a problem. That was my 3000 hour around-the-world experience until I bought Globe Run-Dry Impellers. But, that ia only one example and proves nothing. Best, Bill Rouse
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James Alton
I would be curious to know what rpm the Onan impeller runs? I agree, Yanmar rw impellers basically die from age rather than from hours. Heat seems to often be involved with accelerated wear. I don't if that is a factor here or not. James Sent from Samsung Mobile -------- Original message --------
From: "divanz620@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> Date: 06-09-2016 5:03 PM (GMT-04:00) To: amelyachtowners@... Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Globe Run Dry Impellers The question is WHY does the ONAN eat impellers ? Is it something to do with the design of that pump housing? I changed mine for a Sherwood single piece machined pump housing, made no difference. My Yanmar engine (and I am sure Volvo) doesn't go through impellers the way the ONAN does. When I have changed the Yanmar impeller after hundreds of hours running it looks like new. I have seen a number of installations of this MARCH pump and it seems to work fine. The pump housing is left on the engine with no impeller.....there is no issue with that, the shaft is now driving nothing. The saltwater supply comes from the manifold pipe
just cut shorter and the outlet of the pump connected to the flow sensor and to the heat exchanger. The ONAN raw water flow rate (50Hz) is 18.9 l/min (60Hz 22.7l/min). The MARCH LC-3CP-MD has a max flow of 31 lpm (0 head) which decreases to 22 l/min at a head of 2m, so we are in the right area. The 230VAC comes from the generator output with a circuit breaker installed in line.
One Amel 54 which I am quite familiar with has an 11kVA ONAN with a MARCH pump for its cooling circuit. This boat has been halfway around the world in 5 years with no issues at all....certainly no ONAN impeller issues. That's my twopennyworth Cheers Alan Elyse SM437 |
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The question is WHY does the ONAN eat impellers ? Is it something to do with the design of that pump housing? I changed mine for a Sherwood single piece machined pump housing, made no difference. My Yanmar engine (and I am sure Volvo) doesn't go through impellers the way the ONAN does. When I have changed the Yanmar impeller after hundreds of hours running it looks like new. I have seen a number of installations of this MARCH pump and it seems to work fine. The pump housing is left on the engine with no impeller.....there is no issue with that, the shaft is now driving nothing. The saltwater supply comes from the manifold pipe just cut shorter and the outlet of the pump connected to the flow sensor and to the heat exchanger. The ONAN raw water flow rate (50Hz) is 18.9 l/min (60Hz 22.7l/min). The MARCH LC-3CP-MD has a max flow of 31 lpm (0 head) which decreases to 22 l/min at a head of 2m, so we are in the right area. The 230VAC comes from the generator output with a circuit breaker installed in line. One Amel 54 which I am quite familiar with has an 11kVA ONAN with a MARCH pump for its cooling circuit. This boat has been halfway around the world in 5 years with no issues at all....certainly no ONAN impeller issues. That's my twopennyworth Cheers Alan Elyse SM437 |
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James Alton
Bill, Bronze is very easy to machine and you don't have to use a mill or anything fancy for a job like cleaning up rough areas inside your pump housing. One option is to use a drum sander just under the ID of the casting. I would start with about 80g and once the imperfections were removed work down to finer grits, finishing with w/d down to about 600g. Move the drum in and out so that you don't cut grooves. You could even polish the last of the scratches out using fiberglass or metal polish. Just wash the housing out really well to remove the abrasive. I wouldn't worry about taking a little metal out in this process if needed. Best of luck, James Sent from Samsung Mobile -------- Original message --------
From: "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> Date: 06-09-2016 10:44 AM (GMT-04:00) To: amelyachtowners@... Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Globe Run Dry Impellers For my two cents... I think this modification has numerous issues and would caution the attempt to re-engineer what Cummins Onan has done. I believe that you need to address these things if you proceed with this: Water flow and water flow pressure - While the March magnetic drive may have the reguired flow specifications, it may not have the force of flow. AND, most importantly what is the required flow. It seems to me that the flow could possibly overwhelm the exhaust 's ability to clear the wet muffler...if that happens, good-bye Onan. Where to connect the pump to 230VAC? I assume that you would want to connect it to the same place as the exhaust fan. Is there sufficient current available? Is that going to be properly fused? Will the flow sensor work properly? What are those specs? What are your plans to seal the port for the existing pump? If you leave the pump in place, will it be OK free-running without an impeller and the water to cool the casing? My bottom line is that none of us has all of the information to make this decision, and I do not envision Onan giving any of us what we need to do this. I will not be doing this modification because I do not want to bet the cost of a new generator for something that nobody can be sure of. On another note regarding the saltwater pump that Onan selected for this generator, I belive the original casting is poorly done and the inside of the pump needs to be machined slightly. The last time I changed the impeller (The dreaded Globe Run-Dry) I noticed a casting imperfection. When I was cleaning the inside of the pump with Wet-dry sandpaper, there were obviously two spots that were bad. I want to try to have this pump machined/polished. Has anyone done this? Bill Rouse On Jun 9, 2016 8:24 AM, "'Mark Erdos' mcerdos@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
For my two cents... I think this modification has numerous issues and would caution the attempt to re-engineer what Cummins Onan has done. I believe that you need to address these things if you proceed with this: Water flow and water flow pressure - While the March magnetic drive may have the reguired flow specifications, it may not have the force of flow. AND, most importantly what is the required flow. It seems to me that the flow could possibly overwhelm the exhaust 's ability to clear the wet muffler...if that happens, good-bye Onan. Where to connect the pump to 230VAC? I assume that you would want to connect it to the same place as the exhaust fan. Is there sufficient current available? Is that going to be properly fused? Will the flow sensor work properly? What are those specs? What are your plans to seal the port for the existing pump? If you leave the pump in place, will it be OK free-running without an impeller and the water to cool the casing? My bottom line is that none of us has all of the information to make this decision, and I do not envision Onan giving any of us what we need to do this. I will not be doing this modification because I do not want to bet the cost of a new generator for something that nobody can be sure of. On another note regarding the saltwater pump that Onan selected for this generator, I belive the original casting is poorly done and the inside of the pump needs to be machined slightly. The last time I changed the impeller (The dreaded Globe Run-Dry) I noticed a casting imperfection. When I was cleaning the inside of the pump with Wet-dry sandpaper, there were obviously two spots that were bad. I want to try to have this pump machined/polished. Has anyone done this? Bill Rouse
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This is intriguing. It would seem the failure rate of the pump would be less likely than the impellers. What do you do with the original mechanical pump? Leave it in place without the impeller and connect the March pump to it? Or, does the March pump connect directly to the heat exchanger?
Also, how can you be sure the March pump delivers enough water at full load? The impellers move a lot of water through the engine.
With best regards,
Mark
Super Maramu 2000 Hull #275 www.creampuff.us Currently cruising: Tampa Bay for hurricane season
From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2016 11:00 PM To: amelyachtowners@... Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Globe Run Dry Impellers
Hi Mark
The MARCH pump is a centrifugal pump used with air conditioners to pump the water around. LC-2CP-MD Magnetic Drive Pump | March Pump | March Manufacturing Inc.
They come in a 230VAC version and quite a few Amel owners have mounted them in front of the ONAN and use them to pump the saltwater cooling instead of the dreaded impeller. You connect it to the AC output of the generator and saltwater in from the manifold and out to the heat exchanger. I bought one some time ago and will eventually install it....makes sense for the Calpeda aircon pump we have too as it has no direct connection between motor ground and the saltwater thus isolating the bonding system from the AC ground. Cheers Alan Elyse SM437 |
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Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
Peregrinus, I did the same and ordered Globe Run-Dry Impellers because of postings in the Amel Owners Group. I wrote Globe about this problem and sent the same photo I posted here. They told be to discuss it with the vendor I purchased it from. I wrote back and said I wasn't going to discuss it with the vendor and that I considered it a learning experience. They thanked me and that was that. If I were you, I would keep the Globe impellers that you purchased as emergency backup, but not use them as replacements. Bill Rouse
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svperegrinus@yahoo.com
We have onboard several Globe run dry impellers we purchased a few years ago based on posts here in the forum.
I don't think we've ever gotten to try them because the Ft Lauderdale Onan dealer would flatly not install anything other than Onan OEM impellers and the Ft Lauderdale Yanmar dealer sold us a number of the "new" (to us) Yanmar OEM impellers with the thread for the Yanmar puller. Cheerio, Peregrinus SM2K No. 350 (2002) At anchor, Villefranche-sur-Mer (Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur) |
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Hi Mark
The MARCH pump is a centrifugal pump used with air conditioners to pump the water around. LC-2CP-MD Magnetic Drive Pump | March Pump | March Manufacturing Inc.
They come in a 230VAC version and quite a few Amel owners have mounted them in front of the ONAN and use them to pump the saltwater cooling instead of the dreaded impeller. You connect it to the AC output of the generator and saltwater in from the manifold and out to the heat exchanger. I bought one some time ago and will eventually install it....makes sense for the Calpeda aircon pump we have too as it has no direct connection between motor ground and the saltwater thus isolating the bonding system from the AC ground. Cheers Alan Elyse SM437 |
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Alan,
What is this March pump modification you speak of?
With best regards,
Mark
Super Maramu 2000 Hull #275 www.creampuff.us Currently cruising: Tampa Bay for hurricane season
From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2016 5:48 PM To: amelyachtowners@... Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Globe Run Dry Impellers
OK, Mine is up to 160 hours, so I thought I would replace it, which I just did this morning. I've posted a pic of the pump housing impeller and plate. This is 160 hours, no broken blades, but they are seriously distorted and worn as is the face of the rubber hub where it meets the plate and the pump housing. So, now I only have one spare impeller and when that goes in I prepare for the MARCH pump installation next. Cheers Alan Elyse SM437 |
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OK,
Mine is up to 160 hours, so I thought I would replace it, which I just did this morning. I've posted a pic of the pump housing impeller and plate. This is 160 hours, no broken blades, but they are seriously distorted and worn as is the face of the rubber hub where it meets the plate and the pump housing. So, now I only have one spare impeller and when that goes in I prepare for the MARCH pump installation next. Cheers Alan Elyse SM437 |
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Alexandre Uster von Baar <uster@...>
Hello Jean Pierre, I saw it on the pictures you put on FB, this is on my list of things to get, but I can’t find one…
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Where did you get it? Alexandre -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 6/8/16, Germain Jean-Pierre jgermain@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Globe Run Dry Impellers To: amelyachtowners@... Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2016, 3:24 PM Hi Gang, Some time ago, we made the following mods to the MDKAL B. We added a one way spring ball valve to the water intake side. On the outlet to the heat exchanger, we placed a diverter filter to capture wayward blades… and sundry junk So far so good. After nearly 100 hours of genset ops, the impeller has yet to shed a blade. I will follow the suggestion from my mate with a Grand Banks… count the blades… when the “capture filter" catches 50% of the total number of blades on the impeller, change the impeller. GL Jean-Pierre GermainSY Eleuthera, SM 007. On 8 Jun 2016, at 22:14, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: I run very little time my Onan. On average I would say 8 hours/month. So about 80 hours in 10 months. Sincerely, Alexandre -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 6/8/16, divanz620@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Globe Run Dry Impellers To: amelyachtowners@... Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2016, 3:11 PM Hi Alexandre,I replaced the ONAN pump with a new Sherwood one piece cast (beautifully machined) pump, and I still have the same problem.....it seems this is a well known issue with ONAN, there was a big discussion thread on Cruisers Forum about it.How many actual hours ONAN running time did you have in the 8 / 10 month periods ?CheersAlanElyse SM437 #yiv3024241704 #yiv3024241704 -- #yiv3024241704ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv3024241704 #yiv3024241704ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv3024241704 #yiv3024241704ygrp-mkp #yiv3024241704hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv3024241704 #yiv3024241704ygrp-mkp #yiv3024241704ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv3024241704 #yiv3024241704ygrp-mkp .yiv3024241704ad { padding:0 0;} #yiv3024241704 #yiv3024241704ygrp-mkp .yiv3024241704ad p { margin:0;} #yiv3024241704 #yiv3024241704ygrp-mkp 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Turistico Marina di Ragusa, Pontoon M15,97100 Ragusa, Sicily, Italy +44 7551 211 511 jp.germain@... jp.germain45@... #yiv4611837945 #yiv4611837945 -- #yiv4611837945ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv4611837945 #yiv4611837945ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv4611837945 #yiv4611837945ygrp-mkp #yiv4611837945hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv4611837945 #yiv4611837945ygrp-mkp #yiv4611837945ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv4611837945 #yiv4611837945ygrp-mkp .yiv4611837945ad { padding:0 0;} #yiv4611837945 #yiv4611837945ygrp-mkp .yiv4611837945ad p { margin:0;} #yiv4611837945 #yiv4611837945ygrp-mkp .yiv4611837945ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #yiv4611837945 #yiv4611837945ygrp-sponsor #yiv4611837945ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #yiv4611837945 #yiv4611837945ygrp-sponsor #yiv4611837945ygrp-lc #yiv4611837945hd { margin:10px 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Alexandre Uster von Baar <uster@...>
No, no, I had the same problem.
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After 8 months the impeller would loose all its blade (only putting 80 hours). I had the water pump rebuilt and the person said: 'look how dirty it is'... so we cleaned it then the problem was solved. Alexandre -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 6/8/16, divanz620@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Globe Run Dry Impellers To: amelyachtowners@... Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2016, 3:34 PM OK....that's why the impeller still looks OK..I think most people get between 150 to 200 hours from an impeller.CheersAlan Elyse SM437 #yiv7622592841 #yiv7622592841 -- #yiv7622592841ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv7622592841 #yiv7622592841ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv7622592841 #yiv7622592841ygrp-mkp #yiv7622592841hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv7622592841 #yiv7622592841ygrp-mkp #yiv7622592841ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv7622592841 #yiv7622592841ygrp-mkp .yiv7622592841ad { padding:0 0;} #yiv7622592841 #yiv7622592841ygrp-mkp .yiv7622592841ad p { margin:0;} #yiv7622592841 #yiv7622592841ygrp-mkp .yiv7622592841ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #yiv7622592841 #yiv7622592841ygrp-sponsor #yiv7622592841ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #yiv7622592841 #yiv7622592841ygrp-sponsor #yiv7622592841ygrp-lc #yiv7622592841hd { 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OK....that's why the impeller still looks OK..
I think most people get between 150 to 200 hours from an impeller. Cheers Alan Elyse SM437 |
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Germain Jean-Pierre <jgermain@...>
Hi Gang,
Some time ago, we made the following mods to the MDKAL B. We added a one way spring ball valve to the water intake side. On the outlet to the heat exchanger, we placed a diverter filter to capture wayward blades… and sundry junk So far so good. After nearly 100 hours of genset ops, the impeller has yet to shed a blade. I will follow the suggestion from my mate with a Grand Banks… count the blades… when the “capture filter" catches 50% of the total number of blades on the impeller, change the impeller. GL Jean-Pierre Germain SY Eleuthera, SM 007.
Jean-Pierre Germain, SY Eleuthera, Amel Super Maramu 007 Porto Turistico Marina di Ragusa, Pontoon M15, |
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Alexandre Uster von Baar <uster@...>
I run very little time my Onan.
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On average I would say 8 hours/month. So about 80 hours in 10 months. Sincerely, Alexandre -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 6/8/16, divanz620@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Globe Run Dry Impellers To: amelyachtowners@... Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2016, 3:11 PM Hi Alexandre,I replaced the ONAN pump with a new Sherwood one piece cast (beautifully machined) pump, and I still have the same problem.....it seems this is a well known issue with ONAN, there was a big discussion thread on Cruisers Forum about it.How many actual hours ONAN running time did you have in the 8 / 10 month periods ?CheersAlanElyse SM437 #yiv3024241704 #yiv3024241704 -- #yiv3024241704ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv3024241704 #yiv3024241704ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv3024241704 #yiv3024241704ygrp-mkp #yiv3024241704hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv3024241704 #yiv3024241704ygrp-mkp #yiv3024241704ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv3024241704 #yiv3024241704ygrp-mkp .yiv3024241704ad { padding:0 0;} #yiv3024241704 #yiv3024241704ygrp-mkp .yiv3024241704ad p { margin:0;} #yiv3024241704 #yiv3024241704ygrp-mkp 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Hi Alexandre,
I replaced the ONAN pump with a new Sherwood one piece cast (beautifully machined) pump, and I still have the same problem.....it seems this is a well known issue with ONAN, there was a big discussion thread on Cruisers Forum about it. How many actual hours ONAN running time did you have in the 8 / 10 month periods ? Cheers Alan Elyse SM437 |
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Alexandre Uster von Baar <uster@...>
Hello Alan,
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I used to have the same problem. After 8 months the impeller would lost is blade. So Dec 2014 I cleaned the water pump, see pictures on the link below. And 10 months later, preparing for a longer trip I decided to change the impeller and it looked like new, I could have use it longer. so, in “my” case, it was the pump being dirty that created a faster than expected ware on the impeller. http://nikimat.com/onan_water_pump_cleaning.html Sincerely, Alexandre SM2K #289 NIKIMAT Club Nautico de San Juan, Puerto Rico -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 6/8/16, divanz620@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Globe Run Dry Impellers To: amelyachtowners@... Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2016, 2:51 PM I changed the whole pump for a Sherwood one-piece housing and I have used Globe Run Dry impellers on the Onan with very little difference in longevity cf the standard impeller...about 170 to 195 hours has been our run so far...same issue, the blades come off and end up in the heat exchanger...I have a couple of these blue fellas to use yet and when they are done I will install the March centrifugal pump I bought some time ago.I don't have experience of the rubber separating itself from the hub.CheersAlanElyse SM$37 #yiv1550548670 #yiv1550548670 -- #yiv1550548670ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv1550548670 #yiv1550548670ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv1550548670 #yiv1550548670ygrp-mkp #yiv1550548670hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv1550548670 #yiv1550548670ygrp-mkp #yiv1550548670ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv1550548670 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