[Amel Yacht Owners] Wind generator on top of the mizzen mast


Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

Paul,

On my last boat I had a Duogen, the wind/water version of the D400.  It used the same alternator and blades as the wind only D400.  VERY quiet and smooth running by either wind or water.  It was an awesome machine as a towed water generator:  Sailing at 5 or 6 knots it fed a constant 7+ amps into our 12 volt system.  More than enough to keep the batteries fully charged all the time on a passage from Hawaii.

BUT…
As a wind generator it did not make enough power to pay its way. Yes, it could make 4 or 5 amps…for a few minutes at a time in a big gust. Even in quite windy places it was never a significant contributor to our energy budget over the course of a day.

I think you will be disappointed with the cost/benefit ratio with any wind generator you pick. You would be better off finding a place to add 150 watts of solar panels.  They would be better, even in marginal conditions, at putting electrons into your battery over the course of a week.

That said, if you do go ahead with a wind generator, the top of the mizzen is a really bad spot for a reason that you did not mention.  Adding the weight of a wind generator 10 meters up in the air is NOT a good thing to do for a sailboat. Adding 17kg (the weight of a D400) 10 meters up will have a similar effect on the stability as taking about 110 kg off your keel.  Very round numbers, but you get the idea.  The boat heels more in the wind, needs reefing earlier, etc. It IS a significant effect.

Lower is better for anything heavy, but of course the lower it is, the less wind it sees…  no free lunch!

Bill Kinney
SM#160 Harmonie
Port Canaveral, Florida,
Heading north in a day or two.



On Jun 19, 2016, at 08:05, osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Hello! We are thinking of adding a wind generator to complement our 650 w of solar power. On cloudy days, during night sailing and in windy anchorage in the Caribbean I think it might be a good complement. But where to put it? We do not like to put in on the solar arc as it will give shadow on the solar panels, thus reducing output from the solar panels which will give the majority of the power. One place we believe might be a god spot is on top of the mizzen mast, but it has some draw backs. 

-Not possible to lock in strong wind conditions

-difficult to service

-could be subject to very strong forces when going upwind and pounding into the waves. With the wind generator on top of the mizzen it can experience severe de-acceleration and need to be fastened very strong. On a previous boat when sailing up wind in rough conditions our combined tricolor and anchor light broke loose and fell down on deck, due to severe de-acceleration.

 

Any experience and advice highly appreciated on where to best place the wind generator, We do like to fly the mizzen balooner, thus on the mizzen mast fare from ideal

 

We are currently choosing between Silent wind, Super wind and D 400 from Dougen. Noise and vibration are at least as important criteria as efficiency.

 

Any thoughts of which to go for? The Superwind is by fare the most expensive one.

 

Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259

 
 
 
 
 

 





Ann-Sofie Svanberg <kanalmamman@...>
 

We have a SilentWind 400 installed on a pole on the aft. Works super. If I recall right, our windgen gave us some 1500 Ah in 4 months time in Caribbean. Also, it has a automatic brake that activates if the wind is to strong or batteries fully charged.

Don't you have an arch? Mount it there instead of in the top of the mizzen.  WindGens are not maintenence free.
You can contact us for more info. 

Annsofie
S/Y Lady Annila
SM 232, 1998

Skickat från min iPad

19 juni 2016 kl. 16:22 skrev Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Paul,


On my last boat I had a Duogen, the wind/water version of the D400.  It used the same alternator and blades as the wind only D400.  VERY quiet and smooth running by either wind or water.  It was an awesome machine as a towed water generator:  Sailing at 5 or 6 knots it fed a constant 7+ amps into our 12 volt system.  More than enough to keep the batteries fully charged all the time on a passage from Hawaii.

BUT…
As a wind generator it did not make enough power to pay its way. Yes, it could make 4 or 5 amps…for a few minutes at a time in a big gust. Even in quite windy places it was never a significant contributor to our energy budget over the course of a day.

I think you will be disappointed with the cost/benefit ratio with any wind generator you pick. You would be better off finding a place to add 150 watts of solar panels.  They would be better, even in marginal conditions, at putting electrons into your battery over the course of a week.

That said, if you do go ahead with a wind generator, the top of the mizzen is a really bad spot for a reason that you did not mention.  Adding the weight of a wind generator 10 meters up in the air is NOT a good thing to do for a sailboat. Adding 17kg (the weight of a D400) 10 meters up will have a similar effect on the stability as taking about 110 kg off your keel.  Very round numbers, but you get the idea.  The boat heels more in the wind, needs reefing earlier, etc. It IS a significant effect.

Lower is better for anything heavy, but of course the lower it is, the less wind it sees…  no free lunch!

Bill Kinney
SM#160 Harmonie
Port Canaveral, Florida,
Heading north in a day or two.



On Jun 19, 2016, at 08:05, osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Hello! We are thinking of adding a wind generator to complement our 650 w of solar power. On cloudy days, during night sailing and in windy anchorage in the Caribbean I think it might be a good complement. But where to put it? We do not like to put in on the solar arc as it will give shadow on the solar panels, thus reducing output from the solar panels which will give the majority of the power. One place we believe might be a god spot is on top of the mizzen mast, but it has some draw backs. 

-Not possible to lock in strong wind conditions

-difficult to service

-could be subject to very strong forces when going upwind and pounding into the waves. With the wind generator on top of the mizzen it can experience severe de-acceleration and need to be fastened very strong. On a previous boat when sailing up wind in rough conditions our combined tricolor and anchor light broke loose and fell down on deck, due to severe de-acceleration.

 

Any experience and advice highly appreciated on where to best place the wind generator, We do like to fly the mizzen balooner, thus on the mizzen mast fare from ideal

 

We are currently choosing between Silent wind, Super wind and D 400 from Dougen. Noise and vibration are at least as important criteria as efficiency.

 

Any thoughts of which to go for? The Superwind is by fare the most expensive one.

 

Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259

 
 
 
 
 

 





Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

An average of 12.5 A-hrs per day…  a bit more (25% or so) than I got from my wind generator, but in the right ballpark. Especially considering you are in the Caribbean, and I wasn’t!

$500 worth of solar panel got me an average of 60 A-hrs per day.  Hence my logic for wind generators not paying their way.  But of course everybody has their own cost-benefit equation.

I don’t think we have very different experiences, just different conclusions based on similar data.






On Jun 19, 2016, at 12:49, Ann-Sofie Svanberg kanalmamman@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


We have a SilentWind 400 installed on a pole on the aft. Works super. If I recall right, our windgen gave us some 1500 Ah in 4 months time in Caribbean. Also, it has a automatic brake that activates if the wind is to strong or batteries fully charged.

Don't you have an arch? Mount it there instead of in the top of the mizzen.  WindGens are not maintenence free.
You can contact us for more info. 

Annsofie
S/Y Lady Annila
SM 232, 1998

Skickat från min iPad

19 juni 2016 kl. 16:22 skrev Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Paul,


On my last boat I had a Duogen, the wind/water version of the D400.  It used the same alternator and blades as the wind only D400.  VERY quiet and smooth running by either wind or water.  It was an awesome machine as a towed water generator:  Sailing at 5 or 6 knots it fed a constant 7+ amps into our 12 volt system.  More than enough to keep the batteries fully charged all the time on a passage from Hawaii.

BUT…
As a wind generator it did not make enough power to pay its way. Yes, it could make 4 or 5 amps…for a few minutes at a time in a big gust. Even in quite windy places it was never a significant contributor to our energy budget over the course of a day.

I think you will be disappointed with the cost/benefit ratio with any wind generator you pick. You would be better off finding a place to add 150 watts of solar panels.  They would be better, even in marginal conditions, at putting electrons into your battery over the course of a week.

That said, if you do go ahead with a wind generator, the top of the mizzen is a really bad spot for a reason that you did not mention.  Adding the weight of a wind generator 10 meters up in the air is NOT a good thing to do for a sailboat. Adding 17kg (the weight of a D400) 10 meters up will have a similar effect on the stability as taking about 110 kg off your keel.  Very round numbers, but you get the idea.  The boat heels more in the wind, needs reefing earlier, etc. It IS a significant effect.

Lower is better for anything heavy, but of course the lower it is, the less wind it sees…  no free lunch!

Bill Kinney
SM#160 Harmonie
Port Canaveral, Florida,
Heading north in a day or two.



On Jun 19, 2016, at 08:05, osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Hello! We are thinking of adding a wind generator to complement our 650 w of solar power. On cloudy days, during night sailing and in windy anchorage in the Caribbean I think it might be a good complement. But where to put it? We do not like to put in on the solar arc as it will give shadow on the solar panels, thus reducing output from the solar panels which will give the majority of the power. One place we believe might be a god spot is on top of the mizzen mast, but it has some draw backs. 

-Not possible to lock in strong wind conditions

-difficult to service

-could be subject to very strong forces when going upwind and pounding into the waves. With the wind generator on top of the mizzen it can experience severe de-acceleration and need to be fastened very strong. On a previous boat when sailing up wind in rough conditions our combined tricolor and anchor light broke loose and fell down on deck, due to severe de-acceleration.

 

Any experience and advice highly appreciated on where to best place the wind generator, We do like to fly the mizzen balooner, thus on the mizzen mast fare from ideal

 

We are currently choosing between Silent wind, Super wind and D 400 from Dougen. Noise and vibration are at least as important criteria as efficiency.

 

Any thoughts of which to go for? The Superwind is by fare the most expensive one.

 

Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259

 
 
 
 
 

 








Paul Osterberg
 

Bill and Annsofie,

around 12 Ah a day as an average is not very impressive at all, our 450 from Emek gives on average 80 Ah per day and good days over 100 Ah, the 200 w on the rail gives "only" just over 15Ah per day.I think they more often get in shadow, and it's regulator "slow" them down when batteries reaching 95% or above but the regulator for the 450 W arc continues to give full blast more or less. so compared with that, a wind generator does not give much, I'm surprised about the low figures you mention. At 12 knots a superwind should give ca 24 Ah 24 h, and during 2 h at 20 knots wind should give 15 Ah. But more interesting than the average is what does it give days when solar does not give much such as rainy murky days? And as you Bill I do not like to run the diesel generator when sailing or anchored closed to others.
I have two spare 100 watt flexible light weight solar cells I was planing to put on the canvas bimini, but the canvas man said it's not a good idea, you will get chafe, and water/moister between the canvas and the Solar cell, the chafe I believe could be sorted out with chafe protection, but the moister issue might be more difficult to solve. Does anyone have any experience with light weight solar panels on top of the bimini or spray hood?

An other interesting thing with solar panels, they give surprisingly much even cloudy days. the lowest we got from the 450 w panels have been 28 Ah during the two month we have had the Victron MPPT controller, that was a cloudy and rainy day
Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259




ianjenkins1946 <ianjudyjenkins@hotmail.com>
 

Hi Paul, 
                 Can you tell me how many panels you have on your Emek arch and the dimensions of the panels ? If you know the name of the manufacturer and the name of the panel I can get the full specifications from the web.

Thanks,

Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302 Preveza


On 20 Jun 2016, at 17:55, osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Bill and Annsofie,

around 12 Ah a day as an average is not very impressive at all, our 450 from Emek gives on average 80 Ah per day and good days over 100 Ah, the 200 w on the rail gives "only" just over 15Ah per day.I think they more often get in shadow, and it's regulator "slow" them down when batteries reaching 95% or above but the regulator for the 450 W arc continues to give full blast more or less. so compared with that, a wind generator does not give much, I'm surprised about the low figures you mention. At 12 knots a superwind should give ca 24 Ah 24 h, and during 2 h at 20 knots wind should give 15 Ah. But more interesting than the average is what does it give days when solar does not give much such as rainy murky days? And as you Bill I do not like to run the diesel generator when sailing or anchored closed to others.
I have two spare 100 watt flexible light weight solar cells I was planing to put on the canvas bimini, but the canvas man said it's not a good idea, you will get chafe, and water/moister between the canvas and the Solar cell, the chafe I believe could be sorted out with chafe protection, but the moister issue might be more difficult to solve. Does anyone have any experience with light weight solar panels on top of the bimini or spray hood?

An other interesting thing with solar panels, they give surprisingly much even cloudy days. the lowest we got from the 450 w panels have been 28 Ah during the two month we have had the Victron MPPT controller, that was a cloudy and rainy day
Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259




Ann-Sofie Svanberg <kanalmamman@...>
 

Sorry I don't understand Paul. What gives 12 Ah/day?

If you referr to to my previous e-mail about wind gen, my figures was only for the wind gen. 
With our intotal 600 W slolarpanel and windgen, we produce more Ah than we can use.
Today we only run the Dieselgen for less than one hour day and at anchor, living abord, with one freezer and two fridges, we use about 30-40 Ah a night. After running the diesel gen for less than an hour, mostyl to run the coffemachin, the wind and solar refills the system completely. During a windy night, the Ah meter can show as low as 30 Ah. 

We produce so much Ah that we are able to run the watemaker from the battery bank, that is recharged by sun and wind.

If we watch a film in the evening, using a video projector, PC and the big HiFi we normal start the dieselgen but can do without. If no dieselgen, our night consumption is around 60-70 Ah. 

How much we produce during a day, I have not a clue. But the meter is most of the time on +. 

Regards 
Ann-Sofie
S/Y Lady Annila, SM232


Skickat från min iPad

20 juni 2016 kl. 15:55 skrev osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Bill and Annsofie,


around 12 Ah a day as an average is not very impressive at all, our 450 from Emek gives on average 80 Ah per day and good days over 100 Ah, the 200 w on the rail gives "only" just over 15Ah per day.I think they more often get in shadow, and it's regulator "slow" them down when batteries reaching 95% or above but the regulator for the 450 W arc continues to give full blast more or less. so compared with that, a wind generator does not give much, I'm surprised about the low figures you mention. At 12 knots a superwind should give ca 24 Ah 24 h, and during 2 h at 20 knots wind should give 15 Ah. But more interesting than the average is what does it give days when solar does not give much such as rainy murky days? And as you Bill I do not like to run the diesel generator when sailing or anchored closed to others.
I have two spare 100 watt flexible light weight solar cells I was planing to put on the canvas bimini, but the canvas man said it's not a good idea, you will get chafe, and water/moister between the canvas and the Solar cell, the chafe I believe could be sorted out with chafe protection, but the moister issue might be more difficult to solve. Does anyone have any experience with light weight solar panels on top of the bimini or spray hood?

An other interesting thing with solar panels, they give surprisingly much even cloudy days. the lowest we got from the 450 w panels have been 28 Ah during the two month we have had the Victron MPPT controller, that was a cloudy and rainy day
Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259




Alan Leslie
 

Whatever it is 12Ah per day is not even worth considering.
We have 600W of solar panels and I checked the meter just now, we got 2.21KwH today, which at 24V = 92Ah
We have one freezer and one frig running 24/7 and two uses of the coffee machine via our 1500W inverter.plus various cameras, phones and laptops, tablets charging off and on..and last night we used around 70Ah overnight so the solar just about made it up today...we ran the generator for an hour this evening to bring it all up to 100% and run the water maker
We have a D400 wind generator that produces nothing at all...it was rebuilt 2 years ago...but still makes nothing..I think the regulator is not working...
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437 - Fiji


Paul Osterberg
 

Ian the name is Tera Solar TRP 150B
148x68 cm
We have 3 of those so fare very happy with them
The remaining info you find on the Web
Paul SYKERPA SM 259


Paul Osterberg
 

Hello Ann-Sofie
You said 1500 Ah from the windgenerator during 4 month that I gott to 12,5 Ah aday
I might got it wrong?
Paul on SYKerpa SM 259


Andrew & Kate Lamb
 

Hi

 

We put 3 Victron SPP031401200 solar panels on the Emek solar Arc – they have a similar output. Emek could provide these but we got them from a local tradesman who specializes in domestic solar energy installations so this was at a very good price.

 

Andrew

 

Ronpische

SM472

Canet en Roussillon

 

From: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...> on behalf of "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Reply-To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: Tuesday, 21 June 2016 at 09:05
To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Wind generator on top of the mizzen mast

 

 

Hi Paul, 

                 Can you tell me how many panels you have on your Emek arch and the dimensions of the panels ? If you know the name of the manufacturer and the name of the panel I can get the full specifications from the web.

 

Thanks,

 

Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302 Preveza


On 20 Jun 2016, at 17:55, osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Bill and Annsofie,

 

around 12 Ah a day as an average is not very impressive at all, our 450 from Emek gives on average 80 Ah per day and good days over 100 Ah, the 200 w on the rail gives "only" just over 15Ah per day.I think they more often get in shadow, and it's regulator "slow" them down when batteries reaching 95% or above but the regulator for the 450 W arc continues to give full blast more or less. so compared with that, a wind generator does not give much, I'm surprised about the low figures you mention. At 12 knots a superwind should give ca 24 Ah 24 h, and during 2 h at 20 knots wind should give 15 Ah. But more interesting than the average is what does it give days when solar does not give much such as rainy murky days? And as you Bill I do not like to run the diesel generator when sailing or anchored closed to others.

I have two spare 100 watt flexible light weight solar cells I was planing to put on the canvas bimini, but the canvas man said it's not a good idea, you will get chafe, and water/moister between the canvas and the Solar cell, the chafe I believe could be sorted out with chafe protection, but the moister issue might be more difficult to solve. Does anyone have any experience with light weight solar panels on top of the bimini or spray hood?

 

An other interesting thing with solar panels, they give surprisingly much even cloudy days. the lowest we got from the 450 w panels have been 28 Ah during the two month we have had the Victron MPPT controller, that was a cloudy and rainy day

Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259

 

 

 


ianjenkins1946 <ianjudyjenkins@hotmail.com>
 

Hi Andrew , thanks for that info 
Ian


On 21 Jun 2016, at 11:55, Andrew Lamb andrew.lamb@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Hi

 

We put 3 Victron SPP031401200 solar panels on the Emek solar Arc – they have a similar output. Emek could provide these but we got them from a local tradesman who specializes in domestic solar energy installations so this was at a very good price.

 

Andrew

 

Ronpische

SM472

Canet en Roussillon

 

From: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...> on behalf of "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Reply-To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: Tuesday, 21 June 2016 at 09:05
To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Wind generator on top of the mizzen mast

 

 

Hi Paul, 

                 Can you tell me how many panels you have on your Emek arch and the dimensions of the panels ? If you know the name of the manufacturer and the name of the panel I can get the full specifications from the web.

 

Thanks,

 

Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302 Preveza


On 20 Jun 2016, at 17:55, osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Bill and Annsofie,

 

around 12 Ah a day as an average is not very impressive at all, our 450 from Emek gives on average 80 Ah per day and good days over 100 Ah, the 200 w on the rail gives "only" just over 15Ah per day.I think they more often get in shadow, and it's regulator "slow" them down when batteries reaching 95% or above but the regulator for the 450 W arc continues to give full blast more or less. so compared with that, a wind generator does not give much, I'm surprised about the low figures you mention. At 12 knots a superwind should give ca 24 Ah 24 h, and during 2 h at 20 knots wind should give 15 Ah. But more interesting than the average is what does it give days when solar does not give much such as rainy murky days? And as you Bill I do not like to run the diesel generator when sailing or anchored closed to others.

I have two spare 100 watt flexible light weight solar cells I was planing to put on the canvas bimini, but the canvas man said it's not a good idea, you will get chafe, and water/moister between the canvas and the Solar cell, the chafe I believe could be sorted out with chafe protection, but the moister issue might be more difficult to solve. Does anyone have any experience with light weight solar panels on top of the bimini or spray hood?

 

An other interesting thing with solar panels, they give surprisingly much even cloudy days. the lowest we got from the 450 w panels have been 28 Ah during the two month we have had the Victron MPPT controller, that was a cloudy and rainy day

Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259

 

 

 


Ann-Sofie Svanberg <kanalmamman@...>
 

No, but then you continued to talk about solarpanels. Not a word that you reffered to wind gen.
But I would say that the best benefit from a wind gen is during nights and less sunny days.
The choice is free, to have a wind gen or not. We are very pleased with what it delivers and think it is worth the investment.

/Ann-Sofie
S/Y Lady Annila, SM 232

/Ann-Sofie


Skickat från min iPad

21 juni 2016 kl. 09:51 skrev osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Hello Ann-Sofie
You said 1500 Ah from the windgenerator during 4 month that I gott to 12,5 Ah aday
I might got it wrong?
Paul on SYKerpa SM 259