Topics

[Amel Yacht Owners] mast pole for genoa


Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

Charles,

I think the Secteur Blac people are giving you an answer without thinking.  

A standard whisker pole would exert no more lateral force on the mast than the Amel pole. It does the same thing, so the forces are the same. Certainly the attachment fittings at the shrouds do not carry any part of the thrust load from the Amel poles.  If I wanted to use standard whisker poles I would not hesitate to install them.

But…

Are you sure you are setting up the Amel poles correctly?  Has an experienced Amel sailor showed you how to rig them?  I only ask because I find them MUCH easier to use and rig than the standard whisker pole I have used on my past boats.  When set up as intended, they are very simple to handle, even for someone working alone. If you find them too heavy, you might be able to replace the aluminum sections with a carbon fiber tube and cut the weight dramatically.

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Highlands, NJ




On Jul 6, 2016, at 07:51, c.macdonald@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Hello Amel Friends,
I inquired whether it would be feasible to install a mast pole for the genoa on my Maramu. I was told by the "Secteur Blanc" people (they  do the rigging for the Chantiers Amel at La Rochelle)  that the mast on the Amel  boats could not sustain enough lateral push to be so equipped. I did see a Maramu with a mast pole though. I wish I could avoid the complicated, cumbersome and heavy poles the Maramu comes with. I used them once or twice but find them almost impossible to rig when sailing solo. Also I got injured  when doing it last time.
Any good advice?
Charles
 Inuit (Maramu 253)
  





c.macdonald@...
 

Thanks Bill, very good info. I will think it over and keep what yo say in mind.
Charles
 


karkauai
 

I know that many of us sail wing on wing with the genoa on a pole and the main. However, keep in mind that the Amel Super Maramu owners manual says not to do this. It instructs us to only use both poles together, not only one.  Perhaps Olivier can shed some light on this for us.

Kent
SM243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 11:16 AM, c.macdonald@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Thanks Bill, very good info. I will think it over and keep what yo say in mind.
Charles
 


Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

Kent,

I have a version of the SM manual, and can not find such a comment. Can you steer me to a page number or quote?

Bill Kinney
SM #160 Harmonie
Highlands, NJ




On Jul 6, 2016, at 16:26, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


I know that many of us sail wing on wing with the genoa on a pole and the main. However, keep in mind that the Amel Super Maramu owners manual says not to do this. It instructs us to only use both poles together, not only one.  Perhaps Olivier can shed some light on this for us.

Kent
SM243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 11:16 AM, c.macdonald@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Thanks Bill, very good info. I will think it over and keep what yo say in mind.
Charles
 




karkauai
 

Hi Bill.
Sorry, it's in the Amel Super Maramu 2000 Users' Guide, not the Owners' Manual.  I thought I had downloaded it from the Files section, but can't find it there now.
In the Users'Guide it is on page 1-29 in the first paragraph of the section on the "Amel Twin Pole System".  I'll quote it for you:
"When the Amel twin pole system is used, pole and jockey pole must imperatively be used simultaneously on each side of the boat.  Don't use the pole and jockey pole on a single side."

There is no further elaboration as to what problems might arise from using a single pole.  Others and I have used a single pole extensively on downwind and broad reach points of sail without apparent ill effects.  I can only guess that the specs on the mast and rigging may not support this practice.  I don't know of any actual failures.
Please chime in here if anyone knows more on this subject.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 9:00 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,

I have a version of the SM manual, and can not find such a comment. Can you steer me to a page number or quote?

Bill Kinney
SM #160 Harmonie
Highlands, NJ




On Jul 6, 2016, at 16:26, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


I know that many of us sail wing on wing with the genoa on a pole and the main. However, keep in mind that the Amel Super Maramu owners manual says not to do this. It instructs us to only use both poles together, not only one.  Perhaps Olivier can shed some light on this for us.

Kent
SM243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 11:16 AM, c.macdonald@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Thanks Bill, very good info. I will think it over and keep what yo say in mind.
Charles


 




Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

Interesting…  That is not in the version of the SM 2K manual I have.  No date or version number I can find to compare.

The thinking might be that in theory the loads of the two poles cancel each other out. In theory.   But watching the twin headsails in practice, especially when sailing in a significant seaway, the loads are cyclical and the sheets load up alternately. The heavier load shifts from one side to the other.  I am not at all convinced that in practice the load cancelling would be real except in flat water.



On Jul 6, 2016, at 23:26, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Hi Bill.
Sorry, it's in the Amel Super Maramu 2000 Users' Guide, not the Owners' Manual.  I thought I had downloaded it from the Files section, but can't find it there now.
In the Users'Guide it is on page 1-29 in the first paragraph of the section on the "Amel Twin Pole System".  I'll quote it for you:
"When the Amel twin pole system is used, pole and jockey pole must imperatively be used simultaneously on each side of the boat.  Don't use the pole and jockey pole on a single side."

There is no further elaboration as to what problems might arise from using a single pole.  Others and I have used a single pole extensively on downwind and broad reach points of sail without apparent ill effects.  I can only guess that the specs on the mast and rigging may not support this practice.  I don't know of any actual failures.
Please chime in here if anyone knows more on this subject.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 9:00 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,

I have a version of the SM manual, and can not find such a comment. Can you steer me to a page number or quote?

Bill Kinney
SM #160 Harmonie
Highlands, NJ




On Jul 6, 2016, at 16:26, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


I know that many of us sail wing on wing with the genoa on a pole and the main. However, keep in mind that the Amel Super Maramu owners manual says not to do this. It instructs us to only use both poles together, not only one.  Perhaps Olivier can shed some light on this for us.

Kent
SM243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 11:16 AM, c.macdonald@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Thanks Bill, very good info. I will think it over and keep what yo say in mind.
Charles









c.macdonald@...
 

Kent, yes. Thinking over what Bill said, it occurred to me that in Amel's theory the use of both poles together would nullify each other's push. Makes sense. It has been stated repeatedly on this forum that one is better of when not meddling with or contradicting any of old Amel's instructions. When in Rome... So I will explore two possibilities: using the main boom as a pole for the genoa (very optional and in moderate wind force) and/or installing a running backstay so as to add strenght on the wind side of the mast. Or just using both poles as they are, and getting used to rig them correctly and easily.
Charles


Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Kent and Bill,

The Super Maramu 2000 user manual that came with #387 does not have that warning and its sections and pages are numbered differently. The twin pole system is discussed from page 40 to page 50 in 1.3.4 "Amel rig and sail furling systems" part d) "AMEL twin pole system"

I have sailed thousands of miles with the genoa poled to either port or starboard, and I have has limited success with wing on wing because the main will not function well at 150-160 without touching shrouds. I have had great success with the fore ballooner and the genoa with the wind at 160-180. When thenwind is at 150-160, I sail with the genoa poled out.

I hope this helps.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail

On Jul 6, 2016 11:26 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi Bill.
Sorry, it's in the Amel Super Maramu 2000 Users' Guide, not the Owners' Manual.  I thought I had downloaded it from the Files section, but can't find it there now.
In the Users'Guide it is on page 1-29 in the first paragraph of the section on the "Amel Twin Pole System".  I'll quote it for you:
"When the Amel twin pole system is used, pole and jockey pole must imperatively be used simultaneously on each side of the boat.  Don't use the pole and jockey pole on a single side."

There is no further elaboration as to what problems might arise from using a single pole.  Others and I have used a single pole extensively on downwind and broad reach points of sail without apparent ill effects.  I can only guess that the specs on the mast and rigging may not sup port this practice.  I don't know of any actual failures.
Please chime in here if anyone knows more on this subject.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 9:00 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,

I have a version of the SM manual, and can not find such a comment. Can you steer me to a page number or quote?

Bill Kinney
SM #160 Harmonie
Highlands, NJ




On Jul 6, 2016, at 16:26, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


I know that many of us sail wing on wing with the genoa on a pole and the main. However, keep in mind that the Amel Super Maramu owners manual says not to do this. It instructs us to only use both poles together, not only one.  Perhaps Olivier can shed some light on this for us.

Kent
SM243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 11:16 AM, c .macdonald@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Thanks Bill, very good info. I will think it over and keep what yo say in mind.
Charles


 




karkauai
 

Bill,
I think I have the Users Guide on a storage drive.  When I find it and have good wifi I will send it to you.

Charles,
The poles aren't that difficult to deploy and retrieve single-handed with practice and proper technique.  Raising and especially retrieving the ballooner is more difficult.  I'm not sure I would want to do that single-handed.

Kent


On Jul 7, 2016, at 12:12 AM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Interesting…  That is not in the version of the SM 2K manual I have.  No date or version number I can find to compare.


The thinking might be that in theory the loads of the two poles cancel each other out. In theory.   But watching the twin headsails in practice, especially when sailing in a significant seaway, the loads are cyclical and the sheets load up alternately. The heavier load shifts from one side to the other.  I am not at all convinced that in practice the load cancelling would be real except in flat water.



On Jul 6, 2016, at 23:26, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Hi Bill.
Sorry, it's in the Amel Super Maramu 2000 Users' Guide, not the Owners' Manual.  I thought I had downloaded it from the Files section, but can't find it there now.
In the Users'Guide it is on page 1-29 in the first paragraph of the section on the "Amel Twin Pole System".  I'll quote it for you:
"When the Amel twin pole system is used, pole and jockey pole must imperatively be used simultaneously on each side of the boat.  Don't use the pole and jockey pole on a single side."

There is no further elaboration as to what problems might arise from using a single pole.  Others and I have used a single pole extensively on downwind and broad reach points of sail without apparent ill effects.  I can only guess that the specs on the mast and rigging may not support this practice.  I don't know of any actual failures.
Please chime in here if anyone knows more on this subject.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 9:00 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,

I have a version of the SM manual, and can not find such a comment. Can you steer me to a page number or quote?

Bill Kinney
SM #160 Harmonie
Highlands, NJ




On Jul 6, 2016, at 16:26, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


I know that many of us sail wing on wing with the genoa on a pole and the main. However, keep in mind that the Amel Super Maramu owners manual says not to do this. It instructs us to only use both poles together, not only one.  Perhaps Olivier can shed some light on this for us.

Kent
SM243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 11:16 AM, c.macdonald@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Thanks Bill, very good info. I will think it over and keep what yo say in mind.
Charles









James Alton
 

Bill,

   The geometry of the rigging suggests to me that having the two short  compression “struts” in place that run from the mast to the shrouds could help stiffen the mast laterally and help resist the asymmetric loads from a single pole.  Do you recommend having these in place when using a  pole?

Best,

James

On Jul 7, 2016, at 8:19 AM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Kent and Bill,

The Super Maramu 2000 user manual that came with #387 does not have that warning and its sections and pages are numbered differently. The twin pole system is discussed from page 40 to page 50 in 1.3.4 "Amel rig and sail furling systems" part d) "AMEL twin pole system"

I have sailed thousands of miles with the genoa poled to either port or starboard, and I have has limited success with wing on wing because the main will not function well at 150-160 without touching shrouds. I have had great success with the fore ballooner and the genoa with the wind at 160-180. When thenwind is at 150-160, I sail with the genoa poled out.

I hope this helps. 

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail

On Jul 6, 2016 11:26 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi Bill.
Sorry, it's in the Amel Super Maramu 2000 Users' Guide, not the Owners' Manual.  I thought I had downloaded it from the Files section, but can't find it there now.
In the Users'Guide it is on page 1-29 in the first paragraph of the section on the "Amel Twin Pole System".  I'll quote it for you:
"When the Amel twin pole system is used, pole and jockey pole must imperatively be used simultaneously on each side of the boat.  Don't use the pole and jockey pole on a single side."

There is no further elaboration as to what problems might arise from using a single pole.  Others and I have used a single pole extensively on downwind and broad reach points of sail without apparent ill effects.  I can only guess that the specs on the mast and rigging may not sup port this practice.  I don't know of any actual failures.
Please chime in here if anyone knows more on this subject.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 9:00 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,

I have a version of the SM manual, and can not find such a comment. Can you steer me to a page number or quote?

Bill Kinney
SM #160 Harmonie
Highlands, NJ




On Jul 6, 2016, at 16:26, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


I know that many of us sail wing on wing with the genoa on a pole and the main. However, keep in mind that the Amel Super Maramu owners manual says not to do this. It instructs us to only use both poles together, not only one.  Perhaps Olivier can shed some light on this for us.

Kent
SM243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 11:16 AM, c .macdonald@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Thanks Bill, very good info. I will think it over and keep what yo say in mind.
Charles










karkauai
 

Bon Jour, Olivier, can you comment?
Merci,
Kent


On Jul 7, 2016, at 7:19 AM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent and Bill,

The Super Maramu 2000 user manual that came with #387 does not have that warning and its sections and pages are numbered differently. The twin pole system is discussed from page 40 to page 50 in 1.3.4 "Amel rig and sail furling systems" part d) "AMEL twin pole system"

I have sailed thousands of miles with the genoa poled to either port or starboard, and I have has limited success with wing on wing because the main will not function well at 150-160 without touching shrouds. I have had great success with the fore ballooner and the genoa with the wind at 160-180. When thenwind is at 150-160, I sail with the genoa poled out.

I hope this helps.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail

On Jul 6, 2016 11:26 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi Bill.
Sorry, it's in the Amel Super Maramu 2000 Users' Guide, not the Owners' Manual.  I thought I had downloaded it from the Files section, but can't find it there now.
In the Users'Guide it is on page 1-29 in the first paragraph of the section on the "Amel Twin Pole System".  I'll quote it for you:
"When the Amel twin pole system is used, pole and jockey pole must imperatively be used simultaneously on each side of the boat.  Don't use the pole and jockey pole on a single side."

There is no further elaboration as to what problems might arise from using a single pole.  Others and I have used a single pole extensively on downwind and broad reach points of sail without apparent ill effects.  I can only guess that the specs on the mast and rigging may not sup port this practice.  I don't know of any actual failures.
Please chime in here if anyone knows more on this subject.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 9:00 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,

I have a version of the SM manual, and can not find such a comment. Can you steer me to a page number or quote?

Bill Kinney
SM #160 Harmonie
Highlands, NJ




On Jul 6, 2016, at 16:26, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


I know that many of us sail wing on wing with the genoa on a pole and the main. However, keep in mind that the Amel Super Maramu owners manual says not to do this. It instructs us to only use both poles together, not only one.  Perhaps Olivier can shed some light on this for us.

Kent
SM243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 11:16 AM, c .macdonald@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Thanks Bill, very good info. I will think it over and keep what yo say in mind.
Charles


 




Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Kent,

I believe that we have covered this before when you quoted the same thing before.

Possibly you want to download the user's guide that I am quoting from: https://www.dropbox.com/s/05jqbfrghqye3al/Amel%20Super%20Maramu%20User%27s_Guide_CP.pdf?dl=0

I can't tell you why later issued Amel user manuals are different than the one you quote, but they are.

Best,

Bill
BeBe 387
Trinidad

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 11:36 AM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bon Jour, Olivier, can you comment?
Merci,
Kent


On Jul 7, 2016, at 7:19 AM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent and Bill,

The Super Maramu 2000 user manual that came with #387 does not have that warning and its sections and pages are numbered differently. The twin pole system is discussed from page 40 to page 50 in 1.3.4 "Amel rig and sail furling systems" part d) "AMEL twin pole system"

I have sailed thousands of miles with the genoa poled to either port or starboard, and I have has limited success with wing on wing because the main will not function well at 150-160 without touching shrouds. I have had great success with the fore ballooner and the genoa with the wind at 160-180. When thenwind is at 150-160, I sail with the genoa poled out.

I hope this helps.

Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail

On Jul 6, 2016 11:26 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi Bill.
Sorry, it's in the Amel Super Maramu 2000 Users' Guide, not the Owners' Manual.  I thought I had downloaded it from the Files section, but can't find it there now.
In the Users'Guide it is on page 1-29 in the first paragraph of the section on the "Amel Twin Pole System".  I'll quote it for you:
"When the Amel twin pole system is used, pole and jockey pole must imperatively be used simultaneously on each side of the boat.  Don't use the pole and jockey pole on a single side."

There is no further elaboration as to what problems might arise from using a single pole.  Others and I have used a single pole extensively on downwind and broad reach points of sail without apparent ill effects.  I can only guess that the specs on the mast and rigging may not sup port this practice.  I don't know of any actual failures.
Please chime in here if anyone knows more on this subject.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 9:00 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,

I have a version of the SM manual, and can not find such a comment. Can you steer me to a page number or quote?

Bill Kinney
SM #160 Harmonie
Highlands, NJ




On Jul 6, 2016, at 16:26, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


I know that many of us sail wing on wing with the genoa on a pole and the main. However, keep in mind that the Amel Super Maramu owners manual says not to do this. It instructs us to only use both poles together, not only one.  Perhaps Olivier can shed some light on this for us.

Kent
SM243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 11:16 AM, c .macdonald@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Thanks Bill, very good info. I will think it over and keep what yo say in mind.
Charles


 





Beaute Olivier
 

Hello happy downwind sailors,

in 2002 or 2003, a Super Maramu dismasted, without grounding or collision, alone at sea.
The cause has not been very clear, but (from what I remember) the vessel was sailing with 20-25 knots of wind, with the (full?) genoa poled out. The vessel was sailing offshore, single-handed, probably down wind or close to it with the (full?) mainsail on the other tack. Did un uncontrolled gybe (we call it in France "chinese gybe") happen?
The owner reported he was inside the vessel when he heard a crack(!!!) and when on the deck, he could only see both masts down.
At that time AMEL thought that this possible uncontrolled gybe brought the main boom on the same side as the poled genoa (with maybe un unsecured main sheet traveller?) and as you all know, with some wind, after the uncontrolled gybe, the vessel (any sailing vessel) tends to go to luff and heel. Most probably, the pole (and maybe the boom too) hit the water and put high force sideways on the mast, causing it to collapse.

This is the reason why AMEL then recommended not to sail with one pole only.
I think it is safe to sail downwind with one pole for the genoa AND the mainsail on the other side, secured with the boom preventer, to avoid the bad consequences of a chinese gybe. My recommendation is also to keep watching when sailing, and avoid sailing single-handed (I know another case of single-handed SM dismasted but with grounding...). If you sail single-handed, be careful not to overload the masts if you're not watching.
Another recommendation: DON'T sail with the only full genoa above 20 knots. These masts are strong but they must be used as any other sailing vessel: keeping a sail area balance between the front and the back of the main mast.

Conclusion: the big difference is in the captain's hand (and head). Some SM lose their masts 3 months after delivery, some SM (and A54) have been sailing in "heavy conditions" areas like Patagonia, have now 55000 nautical miles on the log with the same standing rigging...

Have fun at sea, but respect her ("Le respect de la Mer" was Captain Amel's favourite saying).

Olivier.




On Thursday, July 7, 2016 1:42 PM, "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" wrote:


 
Kent,

I believe that we have covered this before when you quoted the same thing before.

Possibly you want to download the user's guide that I am quoting from: https://www.dropbox.com/s/05jqbfrghqye3al/Amel%20Super%20Maramu%20User%27s_Guide_CP.pdf?dl=0

I can't tell you why later issued Amel user manuals are different than the one you quote, but they are.

Best,

Bill
BeBe 387
Trinidad

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 11:36 AM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
Bon Jour, Olivier, can you comment?
Merci,
Kent


On Jul 7, 2016, at 7:19 AM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Kent and Bill,
The Super Maramu 2000 user manual that came with #387 does not have that warning and its sections and pages are numbered differently. The twin pole system is discussed from page 40 to page 50 in 1.3.4 "Amel rig and sail furling systems" part d) "AMEL twin pole system"
I have sailed thousands of miles with the genoa poled to either port or starboard, and I have has limited success with wing on wing because the main will not function well at 150-160 without touching shrouds. I have had great success with the fore ballooner and the genoa with the wind at 160-180. When thenwind is at 150-160, I sail with the genoa poled out.
I hope this helps.
Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail
On Jul 6, 2016 11:26 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
Hi Bill.
Sorry, it's in the Amel Super Maramu 2000 Users' Guide, not the Owners' Manual.  I thought I had downloaded it from the Files section, but can't find it there now.
In the Users'Guide it is on page 1-29 in the first paragraph of the section on the "Amel Twin Pole System".  I'll quote it for you:
"When the Amel twin pole system is used, pole and jockey pole must imperatively be used simultaneously on each side of the boat.  Don't use the pole and jockey pole on a single side."

There is no further elaboration as to what problems might arise from using a single pole.  Others and I have used a single pole extensively on downwind and broad reach points of sail without apparent ill effects.  I can only guess that the specs on the mast and rigging may not sup port this practice.  I don't know of any actual failures.
Please chime in here if anyone knows more on this subject.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 9:00 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Kent,

I have a version of the SM manual, and can not find such a comment. Can you steer me to a page number or quote?

Bill Kinney
SM #160 Harmonie
Highlands, NJ




On Jul 6, 2016, at 16:26, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


I know that many of us sail wing on wing with the genoa on a pole and the main. However, keep in mind that the Amel Super Maramu owners manual says not to do this. It instructs us to only use both poles together, not only one.  Perhaps Olivier can shed some light on this for us.

Kent
SM243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 11:16 AM, c .macdonald@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Thanks Bill, very good info. I will think it over and keep what yo say in mind.
Charles

 






Stephen Davis
 

Thanks Olivier. Great explanation!

On Jul 7, 2016, at 07:25, Beaute Olivier atlanticyachtsurvey@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello happy downwind sailors,

in 2002 or 2003, a Super Maramu dismasted, without grounding or collision, alone at sea.
The cause has not been very clear, but (from what I remember) the vessel was sailing with 20-25 knots of wind, with the (full?) genoa poled out. The vessel was sailing offshore, single-handed, probably down wind or close to it with the (full?) mainsail on the other tack. Did un uncontrolled gybe (we call it in France "chinese gybe") happen?
The owner reported he was inside the vessel when he heard a crack(!!!) and when on the deck, he could only see both masts down.
At that time AMEL thought that this possible uncontrolled gybe brought the main boom on the same side as the poled genoa (with maybe un unsecured main sheet traveller?) and as you all know, with some wind, after the uncontrolled gybe, the vessel (any sailing vessel) tends to go to luff and heel. Most probably, the pole (and maybe the boom too) hit the water and put high force sideways on the mast, causing it to collapse.

This is the reason why AMEL then recommended not to sail with one pole only.
I think it is safe to sail downwind with one pole for the genoa AND the mainsail on the other side, secured with the boom preventer, to avoid the bad consequences of a chinese gybe. My recommendation is also to keep watching when sailing, and avoid sailing single-handed (I know another case of single-handed SM dismasted but with grounding...). If you sail single-handed, be careful not to overload the masts if you're not watching.
Another recommendation: DON'T sail with the only full genoa above 20 knots. These masts are strong but they must be used as any other sailing vessel: keeping a sail area balance between the front and the back of the main mast.

Conclusion: the big difference is in the captain's hand (and head). Some SM lose their masts 3 months after delivery, some SM (and A54) have been sailing in "heavy conditions" areas like Patagonia, have now 55000 nautical miles on the log with the same standing rigging...

Have fun at sea, but respect her ("Le respect de la Mer" was Captain Amel's favourite saying).

Olivier.




On Thursday, July 7, 2016 1:42 PM, "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
Kent,

I believe that we have covered this before when you quoted the same thing before.

Possibly you want to download the user's guide that I am quoting from: https://www.dropbox.com/s/05jqbfrghqye3al/Amel%20Super%20Maramu%20User%27s_Guide_CP.pdf?dl=0

I can't tell you why later issued Amel user manuals are different than the one you quote, but they are.

Best,

Bill
BeBe 387
Trinidad

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 11:36 AM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
Bon Jour, Olivier, can you comment?
Merci,
Kent


On Jul 7, 2016, at 7:19 AM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Kent and Bill,
The Super Maramu 2000 user manual that came with #387 does not have that warning and its sections and pages are numbered differently. The twin pole system is discussed from page 40 to page 50 in 1.3.4 "Amel rig and sail furling systems" part d) "AMEL twin pole system"
I have sailed thousands of miles with the genoa poled to either port or starboard, and I have has limited success with wing on wing because the main will not function well at 150-160 without touching shrouds. I have had great success with the fore ballooner and the genoa with the wind at 160-180. When thenwind is at 150-160, I sail with the genoa poled out.
I hope this helps.
Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail
On Jul 6, 2016 11:26 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
Hi Bill.
Sorry, it's in the Amel Super Maramu 2000 Users' Guide, not the Owners' Manual.  I thought I had downloaded it from the Files section, but can't find it there now.
In the Users'Guide it is on page 1-29 in the first paragraph of the section on the "Amel Twin Pole System".  I'll quote it for you:
"When the Amel twin pole system is used, pole and jockey pole must imperatively be used simultaneously on each side of the boat.  Don't use the pole and jockey pole on a single side."

There is no further elaboration as to what problems might arise from using a single pole.  Others and I have used a single pole extensively on downwind and broad reach points of sail without apparent ill effects.  I can only guess that the specs on the mast and rigging may not sup port this practice.  I don't know of any actual failures.
Please chime in here if anyone knows more on this subject.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 9:00 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Kent,

I have a version of the SM manual, and can not find such a comment. Can you steer me to a page number or quote?

Bill Kinney
SM #160 Harmonie
Highlands, NJ




On Jul 6, 2016, at 16:26, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


I know that many of us sail wing on wing with the genoa on a pole and the main. However, keep in mind that the Amel Super Maramu owners manual says not to do this. It instructs us to only use both poles together, not only one.  Perhaps Olivier can shed some light on this for us.

Kent
SM243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 11:16 AM, c .macdonald@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Thanks Bill, very good info. I will think it over and keep what yo say in mind.
Charles

 






Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Good morning Olivier,

Thanks for your reply help.
I am single handed (always use a preventer when running), I will definitely remember your advice when using the pole.

May I please ask you to elaborate more on the “don’t sail with only full genoa above 20 knots”?
Do you mean: in downwind condition only?
Or also in Beam Reach, Close Reach or Close hauled?
Or do you mean: use a combination of main and genoa when running or in Broad Reach? (and Mizzen in case of Beam Reach)
Or do you mean: start reefing the genoa above 20 kt regarding any point of sail?

Thanks in advance, sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Club Nautico de San Juan, Puerto Rico




--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 7/7/16, Beaute Olivier atlanticyachtsurvey@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] mast pole for genoa
To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: Thursday, July 7, 2016, 7:25 AM


 









Hello
happy downwind sailors,
in
2002 or 2003, a Super Maramu dismasted, without grounding or
collision, alone at sea.The
cause has not been very clear, but (from what I remember)
the vessel was sailing with 20-25 knots of wind, with the
(full?) genoa poled out. The vessel was sailing offshore,
single-handed, probably down wind or close to it with the
(full?) mainsail on the other tack. Did un uncontrolled gybe
(we call it in France "chinese gybe")
happen?The
owner reported he was inside the vessel when he heard a
crack(!!!) and when on the deck, he could only see both
masts down.At
that time AMEL thought that this possible uncontrolled gybe
brought the main boom on the same side as the poled genoa
(with maybe un unsecured main sheet traveller?) and as you
all know, with some wind, after the uncontrolled gybe, the
vessel (any sailing vessel) tends to go to luff and heel.
Most probably, the pole (and maybe the boom too) hit the
water and put high force sideways on the mast, causing it to
collapse.
This
is the reason why AMEL then recommended not to sail with one
pole only.I
think it is safe to sail downwind with one pole for the
genoa AND the mainsail on the other side, secured with the
boom preventer, to avoid the bad consequences of a chinese
gybe. My recommendation is also to keep watching when
sailing, and avoid sailing single-handed (I know another
case of single-handed SM dismasted but with grounding...).
If you sail single-handed, be careful not to overload the
masts if you're not watching.Another
recommendation: DON'T sail with the only full genoa
above 20 knots. These masts are strong but they must be used
as any other sailing vessel: keeping a sail area balance
between the front and the back of the main
mast.
Conclusion:
the big difference is in the captain's hand (and head).
Some SM lose their masts 3 months after delivery, some SM
(and A54) have been sailing in "heavy conditions"
areas like Patagonia, have now 55000 nautical miles on the
log with the same standing rigging...
Have
fun at sea, but respect her ("Le respect de la
Mer" was Captain Amel's favourite
saying).
Olivier.



On Thursday, July 7,
2016 1:42 PM, "'Bill & Judy Rouse'
yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]"
<amelyachtowners@...> wrote:



 









Kent,
I believe that we have covered this
before when you quoted the same thing before.
Possibly you want to download the
user's guide that I am quoting from: https://www.dropbox.com/s/05jqbfrghqye3al/Amel%20Super%20Maramu%20User%27s_Guide_CP.pdf?dl=0
I can't tell you why later
issued Amel user manuals are different than the one you
quote, but they are.
Best,
BillBeBe
387Trinidad
On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at
11:36 AM, Kent Robertson karkauai@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:















 









Bon Jour, Olivier, can you
comment?Merci,Kent
On Jul 7,
2016, at 7:19 AM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:
















 






Kent and Bill,
The Super Maramu 2000 user manual that came
with #387 does not have that warning and its sections and
pages are numbered differently. The twin pole system is
discussed from page 40 to page 50 in 1.3.4 "Amel rig
and sail furling systems" part d) "AMEL twin pole
system"
I have sailed thousands of miles with the
genoa poled to either port or starboard, and I have has
limited success with wing on wing because the main will not
function well at 150-160 without touching shrouds. I have
had great success with the fore ballooner and the genoa with
the wind at 160-180. When thenwind is at 150-160, I sail
with the genoa poled out.
I hope this helps.
Bill Rouse

BeBe Amel 53 #387

Sent from my tablet

+1832-380-4970 USA Voice
Mail
On Jul 6, 2016 11:26
PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@...
[amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:















 









Hi Bill.Sorry, it's in
the Amel Super Maramu 2000 Users' Guide, not the
Owners' Manual.  I thought I had downloaded it from the
Files section, but can't find it there now.In
the Users'Guide it is on page 1-29 in the first
paragraph of the section on the "Amel Twin Pole
System".  I'll quote it for
you:"When the Amel twin pole system is
used, pole and jockey pole must imperatively be used
simultaneously on each side of the boat.  Don't use the
pole and jockey pole on a single
side."
There is no further elaboration
as to what problems might arise from using a single pole. 
Others and I have used a single pole extensively on downwind
and broad reach points of sail without apparent ill
effects.  I can only guess that the specs on the mast and
rigging may not sup
port this practice.  I don't know of any actual
failures.Please chime in here if anyone knows
more on this subject.KentSM
243Kristy

Sent
from my iPhone
On Jul 6, 2016, at
9:00 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:
















 






Kent,
I have a version of the SM manual,
and can not find such a comment. Can you steer me to a page
number or quote?
Bill
KinneySM #160 HarmonieHighlands,
NJhttp://fetchinketch.net



On Jul
6, 2016, at 16:26, Kent Robertson karkauai@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:

I know that many of us
sail wing on wing with the genoa on a pole and the main.
However, keep in mind that the Amel Super Maramu owners
manual says not to
do this. It instructs us
to only use both
poles together, not only one.  Perhaps Olivier can shed
some light on this for us.
KentSM243Kristy

Sent from my
iPhone
On Jul 6, 2016, at 11:16
AM, c
.macdonald@... [amelyachtowners]
<amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:

 Thanks Bill, very good info. I will think it over and
keep what yo say in mind.
Charles
 



































































































Posted by: Beaute Olivier
<atlanticyachtsurvey@...>


karkauai
 

Merci, Olivier,
I have not heard that story.  I haven't sailed with just the Genoa poled out, and always use the preventer when the wind is >150d.  I did sail wing on wing in 20+kts apparent for several hours on one occasion.  In the future I will shorten sail in those conditions.
Thank you again for your valuable contributions to this group of Amel lovers!
Kent
SM 243
Kristy
Currently Curaçao 


On Jul 7, 2016, at 8:25 AM, Beaute Olivier atlanticyachtsurvey@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello happy downwind sailors,

in 2002 or 2003, a Super Maramu dismasted, without grounding or collision, alone at sea.
The cause has not been very clear, but (from what I remember) the vessel was sailing with 20-25 knots of wind, with the (full?) genoa poled out. The vessel was sailing offshore, single-handed, probably down wind or close to it with the (full?) mainsail on the other tack. Did un uncontrolled gybe (we call it in France "chinese gybe") happen?
The owner reported he was inside the vessel when he heard a crack(!!!) and when on the deck, he could only see both masts down.
At that time AMEL thought that this possible uncontrolled gybe brought the main boom on the same side as the poled genoa (with maybe un unsecured main sheet traveller?) and as you all know, with some wind, after the uncontrolled gybe, the vessel (any sailing vessel) tends to go to luff and heel. Most probably, the pole (and maybe the boom too) hit the water and put high force sideways on the mast, causing it to collapse.

This is the reason why AMEL then recommended not to sail with one pole only.
I think it is safe to sail downwind with one pole for the genoa AND the mainsail on the other side, secured with the boom preventer, to avoid the bad consequences of a chinese gybe. My recommendation is also to keep watching when sailing, and avoid sailing single-handed (I know another case of single-handed SM dismasted but with grounding...). If you sail single-handed, be careful not to overload the masts if you're not watching.
Another recommendation: DON'T sail with the only full genoa above 20 knots. These masts are strong but they must be used as any other sailing vessel: keeping a sail area balance between the front and the back of the main mast.

Conclusion: the big difference is in the captain's hand (and head). Some SM lose their masts 3 months after delivery, some SM (and A54) have been sailing in "heavy conditions" areas like Patagonia, have now 55000 nautical miles on the log with the same standing rigging...

Have fun at sea, but respect her ("Le respect de la Mer" was Captain Amel's favourite saying).

Olivier.




On Thursday, July 7, 2016 1:42 PM, "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


 
Kent,

I believe that we have covered this before when you quoted the same thing before.

Possibly you want to download the user's guide that I am quoting from: https://www.dropbox.com/s/05jqbfrghqye3al/Amel%20Super%20Maramu%20User%27s_Guide_CP.pdf?dl=0

I can't tell you why later issued Amel user manuals are different than the one you quote, but they are.

Best,

Bill
BeBe 387
Trinidad

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 11:36 AM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
Bon Jour, Olivier, can you comment?
Merci,
Kent


On Jul 7, 2016, at 7:19 AM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Kent and Bill,
The Super Maramu 2000 user manual that came with #387 does not have that warning and its sections and pages are numbered differently. The twin pole system is discussed from page 40 to page 50 in 1.3.4 "Amel rig and sail furling systems" part d) "AMEL twin pole system"
I have sailed thousands of miles with the genoa poled to either port or starboard, and I have has limited success with wing on wing because the main will not function well at 150-160 without touching shrouds. I have had great success with the fore ballooner and the genoa with the wind at 160-180. When thenwind is at 150-160, I sail with the genoa poled out.
I hope this helps.
Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387
Sent from my tablet
+1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail
On Jul 6, 2016 11:26 PM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
Hi Bill.
Sorry, it's in the Amel Super Maramu 2000 Users' Guide, not the Owners' Manual.  I thought I had downloaded it from the Files section, but can't find it there now.
In the Users'Guide it is on page 1-29 in the first paragraph of the section on the "Amel Twin Pole System".  I'll quote it for you:
"When the Amel twin pole system is used, pole and jockey pole must imperatively be used simultaneously on each side of the boat.  Don't use the pole and jockey pole on a single side."

There is no further elaboration as to what problems might arise from using a single pole.  Others and I have used a single pole extensively on downwind and broad reach points of sail without apparent ill effects.  I can only guess that the specs on the mast and rigging may not sup port this practice.  I don't know of any actual failures.
Please chime in here if anyone knows more on this subject.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 9:00 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Kent,

I have a version of the SM manual, and can not find such a comment. Can you steer me to a page number or quote?

Bill Kinney
SM #160 Harmonie
Highlands, NJ




On Jul 6, 2016, at 16:26, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


I know that many of us sail wing on wing with the genoa on a pole and the main. However, keep in mind that the Amel Super Maramu owners manual says not to do this. It instructs us to only use both poles together, not only one.  Perhaps Olivier can shed some light on this for us.

Kent
SM243
Kristy


On Jul 6, 2016, at 11:16 AM, c .macdonald@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Thanks Bill, very good info. I will think it over and keep what yo say in mind.
Charles