Topics

[Amel Yacht Owners] what type of product to put on bolt attaching the windlass to deck?


Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Good morning,

To make story short, I removed the windlass, etc.

What type of product would you put on the bolts attaching the windlass to the deck?
Lanocote? Marine grease?

one was extremely difficult to remove (4 hours) and i would prefer avoid that in the future…

Thanks in advance,
Sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Club Nautico de San Juan, Puerto Rico


James Alton
 

Alexandre,
   I think I would use Never Seez for that application.  Congratulations on getting your bolts out.  

James
Sueno, Maramu #220


Sent from Samsung Mobile



-------- Original message --------
From: "Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 09-06-2016 10:37 AM (GMT-04:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] what type of product to put on bolt attaching the windlass to deck?


 

Good morning,

To make story short, I removed the windlass, etc.

What type of product would you put on the bolts attaching the windlass to the deck?
Lanocote? Marine grease?

one was extremely difficult to remove (4 hours) and i would prefer avoid that in the future…

Thanks in advance,
Sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Club Nautico de San Juan, Puerto Rico


karkauai
 

Hi Alex,
Since the first time I removed the winch and broke off two bolts, I've been using a waterproof grease and have had no further problems.
Kent
SM243
Kristy 


On Sep 6, 2016, at 9:37 AM, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Good morning,

To make story short, I removed the windlass, etc.

What type of product would you put on the bolts attaching the windlass to the deck?
Lanocote? Marine grease?

one was extremely difficult to remove (4 hours) and i would prefer avoid that in the future…

Thanks in advance,
Sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Club Nautico de San Juan, Puerto Rico


Bill <greatketch@...>
 

If your intent is to take it apart every two or three years to clean salt build up from between the deck and the windlass housing as recommended by Lofrans, pretty much anything will probably work.  

I assume the deck plate is stainless, as well as the bolts, so in this case you are protecting against two issues, galvanic corrosion and "galling" or "cold welding".  

Most kinds of stainless steel can exist in two forms "active" and "passive" depending on the availability of free oxygen.  These two forms are quite far apart on the galvanic scale.  When stainless on stainless threads are wet it sets up a good environment for active and passive forms to exist close to each other and potentially cause issues.  For this reason using a product that excludes water from the joint is a good idea. Lanocote, tef-gel, Never-Seez, or standard waterproof greases would all do this for a least a couple years. 

A simple way to think about stainless galling is that under very high pressures the protective surface oxide layer rubs off, the "pure" metal underneath "melts" into itself and the parts become welded together.  In preventing this, in my experience, Lanocote is good, Tef-Gel and Never-Seez are better.  Some greases are good, some not so much, at this.

So...  All told my recommendation would be either tef-gel or never-seez, and I'd know I could get them apart at any time in the future with no problems. On my boat I'd most likely use tef-gel only because it lives in my rigging tool bag, while the never-seez lives in the engine room!

Bill Kinney
SM#160 Harmonie
Narragansett Bay, RI, USA




On Sep 6, 2016, at 09:37, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Good morning,

To make story short, I removed the windlass, etc.

What type of product would you put on the bolts attaching the windlass to the deck?
Lanocote? Marine grease?

one was extremely difficult to remove (4 hours) and i would prefer avoid that in the future…

Thanks in advance,
Sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Club Nautico de San Juan, Puerto Rico


Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Good morning Bill, James and Kent and thanks for your replies

The Never Seez is on its way, I was going to keep it for high temperature applications.

Kent, glad the waterproof grease is working for you.

I think I have tea gel, if not will use waterproof grease.

I am now stuck: can not unscrew the “things” that hold the brushes in the electric motor…
There was lots of rust on the case, I am afraid they are stuck for good…
Which is pretty sad as when I run out of brushes, will likely need a new motor…

Which leads me to another question:

How many of you and have changed the brushes on the windlass electric motor? How long did they last for those who anchor a lot.

Thanks again for your input!

Sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Club Nautico de San Juan, Puerto Rico








--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 9/6/16, Bill greatketch@yahoo.com [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] what type of product to put on bolt attaching the windlass to deck?
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2016, 10:04 AM


 









If your intent is to take it
apart every two or three years to clean salt build up from
between the deck and the windlass housing as recommended by
Lofrans, pretty much anything will probably work.
 
I assume the deck
plate is stainless, as well as the bolts, so in this case
you are protecting against two issues, galvanic corrosion
and "galling" or "cold welding".
 
Most kinds of
stainless steel can exist in two forms "active"
and "passive" depending on the availability of
free oxygen.  These two forms are quite far apart on the
galvanic scale.  When stainless on stainless threads are
wet it sets up a good environment for active and passive
forms to exist close to each other and potentially cause
issues.  For this reason using a product that excludes
water from the joint is a good idea. Lanocote, tef-gel,
Never-Seez, or standard waterproof greases would all do this
for a least a couple years. 
A simple way to think about
stainless galling is that under very high pressures the
protective surface oxide layer rubs off, the
"pure" metal underneath "melts" into
itself and the parts become welded together.  In preventing
this, in my experience, Lanocote is good, Tef-Gel and
Never-Seez are better.  Some greases are good, some not so
much, at this.
So...
 All told my recommendation would be either tef-gel or
never-seez, and I'd know I could get them apart at any
time in the future with no problems. On my boat I'd most
likely use tef-gel only because it lives in my rigging tool
bag, while the never-seez lives in the engine
room!
Bill
KinneySM#160 HarmonieNarragansett Bay,
RI, USA



On Sep 6,
2016, at 09:37, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@rocketmail.com
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:
















 






Good morning,



To make story short, I removed the windlass, etc.



What type of product would you put on the bolts attaching
the windlass to the deck?

Lanocote? Marine grease?



one was extremely difficult to remove (4 hours) and i would
prefer avoid that in the future…



Thanks in advance,

Sincerely, Alexandre

SM2K #289 NIKIMAT

Club Nautico de San Juan, Puerto Rico
























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James Alton
 

Bill,

   I must say that this was the best explanation I have ever read for why I have had so many problems with stainless on stainless threads over the years..thank you!  I can now imagine the little batteries that are formed between the active and passive locations in such a fastener after Mother Nature adds her natural electrolyte…..  

  Bronze and stainless threads seems almost never gall.  Is the softer bronze acting as sort of a lubricant?

  I was thinking that on Sueno that I would probably start with a clean stainless windlass bolt and a clean hole.  Add the Never Seez with a Q tip or something similar to the embedded plate only, keeping it off of the fibreglass.  Then apply my sealant between the interface of the windlass and the deck but hold the windlass up off of the deck as much as possible while the bolts were inserted to keep from carrying the sealant down into the Never Seezed area.  The objective being to avoid contaminating the faying surfaces for the sealant to insure a good seal.   It’s too bad that a good seal to keep the water out also excludes the O2 needed for the stainless oxide for form but I feel that keeping salt water out of those holes is more important.  I can imagine that once salt water migrates in around the plate that there is no cleaning/drying it out.

   Please tell me how you would do it since I am sure that you have put a lot more thought into this than I have.

Best,

James Alton
Maramu #220 Sueno
Sardinia

On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:04 PM, Bill greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


If your intent is to take it apart every two or three years to clean salt build up from between the deck and the windlass housing as recommended by Lofrans, pretty much anything will probably work.  

I assume the deck plate is stainless, as well as the bolts, so in this case you are protecting against two issues, galvanic corrosion and "galling" or "cold welding".  

Most kinds of stainless steel can exist in two forms "active" and "passive" depending on the availability of free oxygen.  These two forms are quite far apart on the galvanic scale.  When stainless on stainless threads are wet it sets up a good environment for active and passive forms to exist close to each other and potentially cause issues.  For this reason using a product that excludes water from the joint is a good idea. Lanocote, tef-gel, Never-Seez, or standard waterproof greases would all do this for a least a couple years. 

A simple way to think about stainless galling is that under very high pressures the protective surface oxide layer rubs off, the "pure" metal underneath "melts" into itself and the parts become welded together.  In preventing this, in my experience, Lanocote is good, Tef-Gel and Never-Seez are better.  Some greases are good, some not so much, at this.

So...  All told my recommendation would be either tef-gel or never-seez, and I'd know I could get them apart at any time in the future with no problems. On my boat I'd most likely use tef-gel only because it lives in my rigging tool bag, while the never-seez lives in the engine room!

Bill Kinney
SM#160 Harmonie
Narragansett Bay, RI, USA




On Sep 6, 2016, at 09:37, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Good morning, 

To make story short, I removed the windlass, etc. 

What type of product would you put on the bolts attaching the windlass to the deck?  
Lanocote? Marine grease?  

one was extremely difficult to remove (4 hours) and i would prefer avoid that in the future…

Thanks in advance, 
Sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Club Nautico de San Juan, Puerto Rico




Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Now an email, they won’t ship Never Seez to Puerto Rico…

Any 2nd choice?

Tef gel says it can take up to 450*F
Is that enough?

Thanks in advance, sincerely, Alexandre





--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 9/6/16, James Alton lokiyawl2@aol.com [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] what type of product to put on bolt attaching the windlass to deck?
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2016, 10:56 AM


 









Bill,
   I must say that this was the
best explanation I have ever read for why I have had so many
problems with stainless on stainless threads over the
years..thank you!  I can now imagine the little batteries
that are formed between the active and passive locations in
such a fastener after Mother Nature adds her natural
electrolyte…..  
  Bronze and stainless threads
seems almost never gall.  Is the softer bronze acting as
sort of a lubricant?
  I was thinking that on Sueno
that I would probably start with a clean stainless windlass
bolt and a clean hole.  Add the Never Seez with a Q tip or
something similar to the embedded plate only, keeping it off
of the fibreglass.  Then apply my sealant between the
interface of the windlass and the deck but hold the windlass
up off of the deck as much as possible while the bolts were
inserted to keep from carrying the sealant down into the
Never Seezed area.  The objective being to avoid
contaminating the faying surfaces for the sealant to insure
a good seal.   It’s too bad that a good seal to keep the
water out also excludes the O2 needed for the stainless
oxide for form but I feel that keeping salt water out of
those holes is more important.  I can imagine that once
salt water migrates in around the plate that there is no
cleaning/drying it out.
   Please tell me how you would
do it since I am sure that you have put a lot more thought
into this than I have.
Best,
James AltonMaramu #220 SuenoSardinia
On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:04 PM, Bill
greatketch@yahoo.com
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

If your intent is to take it
apart every two or three years to clean salt build up from
between the deck and the windlass housing as recommended by
Lofrans, pretty much anything will probably work.
 
I assume the deck plate is
stainless, as well as the bolts, so in this case you are
protecting against two issues, galvanic corrosion and
"galling" or "cold welding".
 
Most kinds of stainless steel can
exist in two forms "active" and
"passive" depending on the availability of free
oxygen.  These two forms are quite far apart on the
galvanic scale.  When stainless on stainless threads are
wet it sets up a good environment for active and passive
forms to exist close to each other and potentially cause
issues.  For this reason using a product that excludes
water from the joint is a good idea. Lanocote, tef-gel,
Never-Seez, or standard waterproof greases would all do this
for a least a couple years. 
A simple way to think about
stainless galling is that under very high pressures the
protective surface oxide layer rubs off, the
"pure" metal underneath "melts" into
itself and the parts become welded together.  In preventing
this, in my experience, Lanocote is good, Tef-Gel and
Never-Seez are better.  Some greases are good, some not so
much, at this.
So...  All told my
recommendation would be either tef-gel or never-seez, and
I'd know I could get them apart at any time in the
future with no problems. On my boat I'd most likely use
tef-gel only because it lives in my rigging tool bag, while
the never-seez lives in the engine room!
Bill KinneySM#160 HarmonieNarragansett Bay, RI,
USA



On Sep 6, 2016, at 09:37,
Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@rocketmail.com [amelyachtowners]
<amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

 Good morning, 

To make story short, I removed
the windlass, etc. 

What type of product would you
put on the bolts attaching the windlass to the deck?  
Lanocote? Marine
grease?  

one was extremely difficult to
remove (4 hours) and i would prefer avoid that in the
future…

Thanks in
advance, 
Sincerely,
Alexandre
SM2K
#289 NIKIMAT
Club
Nautico de San Juan, Puerto Rico












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Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

James,

Yes, bronze and stainless threads are pretty much always happy together.  Which is why I have always thought that using stainless steel turnbuckle bodies (rigging screws) was such a dumb idea.  Running on the stainless threads on the rigging studs under high load, if you weren’t really careful (and sometimes where you are!) they can lock together--forever.  Bronze bodied turnbuckles are readily available, and if you need the “shiny” look, just get the chrome plated ones.  

As for the why, I am not sure at the molecular level, but I suspect that the surface of the bronze just is not hard enough to scrape off the very hard chromium oxides on the surface of the stainless.  But that is just a guess, and a real metallurgist will have a better, and probably mush more complex, answer

When I install something on deck like this, I typically use butyl tape rather than silicon sealant.  It provides a lasting seal that is easily removed when needed, works with any materials, does not make a mess, it’s very inexpensive, and it has a long shelve life. All nice things for inventory on a cruising boat.

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Narragansett Bay, RI, USA
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Sep 6, 2016, at 11:56, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Bill,


   I must say that this was the best explanation I have ever read for why I have had so many problems with stainless on stainless threads over the years..thank you!  I can now imagine the little batteries that are formed between the active and passive locations in such a fastener after Mother Nature adds her natural electrolyte…..  

  Bronze and stainless threads seems almost never gall.  Is the softer bronze acting as sort of a lubricant?

  I was thinking that on Sueno that I would probably start with a clean stainless windlass bolt and a clean hole.  Add the Never Seez with a Q tip or something similar to the embedded plate only, keeping it off of the fibreglass.  Then apply my sealant between the interface of the windlass and the deck but hold the windlass up off of the deck as much as possible while the bolts were inserted to keep from carrying the sealant down into the Never Seezed area.  The objective being to avoid contaminating the faying surfaces for the sealant to insure a good seal.   It’s too bad that a good seal to keep the water out also excludes the O2 needed for the stainless oxide for form but I feel that keeping salt water out of those holes is more important.  I can imagine that once salt water migrates in around the plate that there is no cleaning/drying it out.

   Please tell me how you would do it since I am sure that you have put a lot more thought into this than I have.

Best,

James Alton
Maramu #220 Sueno
Sardinia

On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:04 PM, Bill greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


If your intent is to take it apart every two or three years to clean salt build up from between the deck and the windlass housing as recommended by Lofrans, pretty much anything will probably work.  

I assume the deck plate is stainless, as well as the bolts, so in this case you are protecting against two issues, galvanic corrosion and "galling" or "cold welding".  

Most kinds of stainless steel can exist in two forms "active" and "passive" depending on the availability of free oxygen.  These two forms are quite far apart on the galvanic scale.  When stainless on stainless threads are wet it sets up a good environment for active and passive forms to exist close to each other and potentially cause issues.  For this reason using a product that excludes water from the joint is a good idea. Lanocote, tef-gel, Never-Seez, or standard waterproof greases would all do this for a least a couple years. 

A simple way to think about stainless galling is that under very high pressures the protective surface oxide layer rubs off, the "pure" metal underneath "melts" into itself and the parts become welded together.  In preventing this, in my experience, Lanocote is good, Tef-Gel and Never-Seez are better.  Some greases are good, some not so much, at this.

So...  All told my recommendation would be either tef-gel or never-seez, and I'd know I could get them apart at any time in the future with no problems. On my boat I'd most likely use tef-gel only because it lives in my rigging tool bag, while the never-seez lives in the engine room!

Bill Kinney
SM#160 Harmonie
Narragansett Bay, RI, USA




On Sep 6, 2016, at 09:37, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Good morning, 

To make story short, I removed the windlass, etc. 

What type of product would you put on the bolts attaching the windlass to the deck?  
Lanocote? Marine grease?  

one was extremely difficult to remove (4 hours) and i would prefer avoid that in the future…

Thanks in advance, 
Sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Club Nautico de San Juan, Puerto Rico






Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

Alexandre,

For any other application on the boat I can think of, 450F would be good enough, but for an exhaust manifold, it is not.

May I suggest finding an auto part store and asking them?  I’ll bet they have Never-Seez or something very much like it. It is something that any good auto mechanic would add to a bolt threaded into an exhaust manifold..

Bill

On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:19, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Now an email, they won’t ship Never Seez to Puerto Rico…  

Any 2nd choice?  

Tef gel says it can take up to 450*F
Is that enough?  

Thanks in advance, sincerely, Alexandre

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 9/6/16, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] what type of product to put on bolt attaching the windlass to deck?
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2016, 10:56 AM


 









Bill,
   I must say that this was the
best explanation I have ever read for why I have had so many
problems with stainless on stainless threads over the
years..thank you!  I can now imagine the little batteries
that are formed between the active and passive locations in
such a fastener after Mother Nature adds her natural
electrolyte…..  
  Bronze and stainless threads
seems almost never gall.  Is the softer bronze acting as
sort of a lubricant?
  I was thinking that on Sueno
that I would probably start with a clean stainless windlass
bolt and a clean hole.  Add the Never Seez with a Q tip or
something similar to the embedded plate only, keeping it off
of the fibreglass.  Then apply my sealant between the
interface of the windlass and the deck but hold the windlass
up off of the deck as much as possible while the bolts were
inserted to keep from carrying the sealant down into the
Never Seezed area.  The objective being to avoid
contaminating the faying surfaces for the sealant to insure
a good seal.   It’s too bad that a good seal to keep the
water out also excludes the O2 needed for the stainless
oxide for form but I feel that keeping salt water out of
those holes is more important.  I can imagine that once
salt water migrates in around the plate that there is no
cleaning/drying it out.
   Please tell me how you would
do it since I am sure that you have put a lot more thought
into this than I have.
Best,
James AltonMaramu #220 SuenoSardinia
On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:04 PM, Bill
greatketch@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:

If your intent is to take it
apart every two or three years to clean salt build up from
between the deck and the windlass housing as recommended by
Lofrans, pretty much anything will probably work.
 
I assume the deck plate is
stainless, as well as the bolts, so in this case you are
protecting against two issues, galvanic corrosion and
"galling" or "cold welding".
 
Most kinds of stainless steel can
exist in two forms "active" and
"passive" depending on the availability of free
oxygen.  These two forms are quite far apart on the
galvanic scale.  When stainless on stainless threads are
wet it sets up a good environment for active and passive
forms to exist close to each other and potentially cause
issues.  For this reason using a product that excludes
water from the joint is a good idea. Lanocote, tef-gel,
Never-Seez, or standard waterproof greases would all do this
for a least a couple years. 
A simple way to think about
stainless galling is that under very high pressures the
protective surface oxide layer rubs off, the
"pure" metal underneath "melts" into
itself and the parts become welded together.  In preventing
this, in my experience, Lanocote is good, Tef-Gel and
Never-Seez are better.  Some greases are good, some not so
much, at this.
So...  All told my
recommendation would be either tef-gel or never-seez, and
I'd know I could get them apart at any time in the
future with no problems. On my boat I'd most likely use
tef-gel only because it lives in my rigging tool bag, while
the never-seez lives in the engine room!
Bill KinneySM#160 HarmonieNarragansett Bay, RI,
USA



On Sep 6, 2016, at 09:37,
Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners]
<amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:

 Good morning, 

To make story short, I removed
the windlass, etc. 

What type of product would you
put on the bolts attaching the windlass to the deck?  
Lanocote? Marine
grease?  

one was extremely difficult to
remove (4 hours) and i would prefer avoid that in the
future…

Thanks in
advance, 
Sincerely,
Alexandre
SM2K
#289 NIKIMAT
Club
Nautico de San Juan, Puerto Rico












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