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[Amel Yacht Owners] New sails


karkauai
 

Hi James,
I have an SM, so not entirely the same...but here is my experience.

When I purchased Kristy 8 years ago, the sails had been discarded.  I was starting with a clean slate, but didn't know very much.  She's my first sailboat.

I knew that the original set of sails included a 150% genoa, but allowed myself to be talked down to a 135% by a sailmaker in Kemah, Texas.  He said that I wouldn't have good sail shape by the time I reefed to 15-18 kts of wind.  He may have been right, but as light winds are more of a problem than too much wind, I regret not having the 150.  In addition, the 135 is cut with the clew 1.2 meters above the safety rail.  This further reduces my sail area in light air.  If I were to do it again, I would have a 150 with the foot just above the safety rail. (Assuming that it would still work well with the downwind pole.)

I also have a 110 Genoa with a high cut clew, almost a Yankee.  It is my go-to sail in the Eastern Caribbean during the winter months when the trades blow 20-25 kts all the time.

The main and mizzen have short vertical battens that have never been a problem.  You just have to keep the boom at 90 degrees to the mast when furling in or out.  Watch the battens as they enter the mast, they should enter all at once, not at any angle.

My sails are 8 years old and still look very good.  They are Dacron with Spectra and I was told they should last 12-15 years.  They aren't racing sails, but they do what I want them to do very well.

If I am still sailing when my current sails need replacing, I don't think I'd change anything except that I'd go with the 150 genoa.

I have a spinnaker that came with the boat, but I've never used it.  Anyone interested?  Pay for shipping and you can have it.  I love the double pole rig for downwind sailing.

I also have a Gale Sail that straps around the furled headsail. I put it up once but have never actually used it to sail with....I try to stay out of those conditions.  I've been in 35-40 kts a couple of times, both times with the 110 Yankee up. She did great jib and jigger with the 110 furled about 20% and the mizzen at the spreader.

Don't know if that helps you at all, just recounting my experience.  I don't really have anything to compare it to.

Steady as she goes.

Kent
S/V Kristy
SM243


James Alton
 

Kent,

   Many thanks for your response to my questions about Amel sail inventory and especially the details of your experience with the battens.  

   Based just on this seasons sailing on Sueno, I agree with you that the original 150 Genoa is a very good solution for my boat and apparently yours as well.  It is a pretty big sail to store in a locker while a smaller sail is installed on the furler such as a working jib or the 110 Yankee cut sail that you mentioned.   All of my previous boats had hank on sails, which are relatively easy to control and change offshore due to the many fastening points.  On a furling sail that slides into a groove and is essentially free once lowered I cannot imagine that changing from the 150 to the 110 offshore in a bit of wind would be much fun.   This is why I was wondering about the Code 0 option.  It is a lightly made sail that hoists on a halyard ahead of the furler.  The sail is on a line furler so that when hoisted it is rolled up and can be lowered in the same state.  The Code 0 could be a significantly  larger than the 150 Genoa and would pack down into a smaller/lighter package when stowed.  This would allow the smaller jib to live permanently on the furler.  My Amel and the furling system in general is relatively new to me, so comments such as yours are a big help in making the right decisions on the new sails.  

   I have not read many positive things about the Gale sail and have never used one to date.  I wonder if there is a risk of damage to the furled sail from chafe?

   I do strongly feel that I want to have a headsail solution available on my boat that is strong enough to use deeply reefed and is easy to tack.  

   And yes, it is certainly possible these days with careful planning to avoid most of the higher wind conditions.  Our planned route will take us around South Africa however and that is one example where I think it may come down to the luck of the draw and I want to be ready…

   I have not yet used the double pole arrangement for downwind sailing but spinnakers I are not a good option for cruising in my mind either.  

   Can anyone tell me if the special Amel locking mechanism for the ballooner which allows the removal of the halyard is adaptable to the Maramu? 

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy
 

On Nov 15, 2016, at 9:09 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Hi James,
I have an SM, so not entirely the same...but here is my experience.

When I purchased Kristy 8 years ago, the sails had been discarded.  I was starting with a clean slate, but didn't know very much.  She's my first sailboat.

I knew that the original set of sails included a 150% genoa, but allowed myself to be talked down to a 135% by a sailmaker in Kemah, Texas.  He said that I wouldn't have good sail shape by the time I reefed to 15-18 kts of wind.  He may have been right, but as light winds are more of a problem than too much wind, I regret not having the 150.  In addition, the 135 is cut with the clew 1.2 meters above the safety rail.  This further reduces my sail area in light air.  If I were to do it again, I would have a 150 with the fo ot just above the safety rail. (Assuming that it would still work well with the downwind pole.)

I also have a 110 Genoa with a high cut clew, almost a Yankee.  It is my go-to sail in the Eastern Caribbean during the winter months when the trades blow 20-25 kts all the time.

The main and mizzen have short vertical battens that have never been a problem.  You just have to keep the boom at 90 degrees to the mast when furling in or out.  Watch the battens as they enter the mast, they should enter all at once, not at any angle.

My sails are 8 years old and still look very good.  They are Dacron with Spectra and I was told they should last 12-15 years.  They aren't racing sails, but they do what I want them to do very well.

If I am still sailing when my current sails need replacing, I don't think I'd change anything except that I'd go with the 150 genoa.

I have a spinnaker that came with the boat, but I've never used it.  Anyone interested?  Pay for shipping and you can have it.  I love the double pole rig for downwind sailing.

I also have a Gale Sail that straps around the furled headsail. I put it up once but have never actually used it to sail with....I try to stay out of those conditions.  I've been in 35-40 kts a couple of times, both times with the 110 Yankee up. She did great jib and jigger with the 110 furled about 20% and the mizzen at the spreader.

Don't know if that helps you at all, jus t recounting my experience.  I don't really have anything to compare it to.

Steady as she goes.

Kent
S/V Kristy
SM243



Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

James,

You asked: "Can anyone tell me if the special Amel locking mechanism for the ballooner which allows the removal of the halyard is adaptable to the Maramu?"

The swivel is what needs to be changed and I understand from a rigger in Malta that the swivel is available, but since I never looked into it, I am not sure where. Possibly from Amel. You would need the swivel, a 3 slot foil, a "hooker" and a "de-hooker."

Since you would need a 3-slot foil, I am not sure that you would consider this unless you were replacing the foil.

Several SM owners have bought tri-radial cut hydranet sails from a sailmaker in Ismir, Turkey. I have toured the loft and was impressed. All that I know bought from them, are as satisfied as we were. They ship worldwide. Email: Tahsin Oge ogemar.com>.

I do not have direct experience with a Maramu, but I would NOT use vertical battens in a Super Maramu furling mast. It was not made to accommodate battens and you will have some issues with wear and the ability to furl at any angle other than the wind at 0 degrees...and the difficulty is proportional with the wind speed.

Bill
BeBe 387

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:45 AM, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Kent,


   Many thanks for your response to my questions about Amel sail inventory and especially the details of your experience with the battens.  

   Based just on this seasons sailing on Sueno, I agree with you that the original 150 Genoa is a very good solution for my boat and apparently yours as well.  It is a pretty big sail to store in a locker while a smaller sail is installed on the furler such as a working jib or the 110 Yankee cut sail that you mentioned.   All of my previous boats had hank on sails, which are relatively easy to control and change offshore due to the many fastening points.  On a furling sail that slides into a groove and is essentially free once lowered I cannot imagine that changing from the 150 to the 110 offshore in a bit of wind would be much fun.   This is why I was wondering about the Code 0 option.  It is a lightly made sail that hoists on a halyard ahead of the furler.  The sail is on a line furler so that when hoisted it is rolled up and can be lowered in the same state.  The Code 0 could be a significantly  larger than the 150 Genoa and would pack down into a smaller/lighter package when stowed.  This would allow the smaller jib to live permanently on the furler.  My Amel and the furling system in general is relatively new to me, so comments such as yours are a big help in making the right decisions on the new sails.  

   I have not read many positive things about the Gale sail and have never used one to date.  I wonder if there is a risk of damage to the furled sail from chafe?

   I do strongly feel that I want to have a headsail solution available on my boat that is strong enough to use deeply reefed and is easy to tack.  

   And yes, it is certainly possible these days with careful planning to avoid most of the higher wind conditions.  Our planned route will take us around South Africa however and that is one example where I think it may come down to the luck of the draw and I want to be ready…

   I have not yet used the double pole arrangement for downwind sailing but spinnakers I are not a good option for cruising in my mind either.  

   Can anyone tell me if the special Amel locking mechanism for the ballooner which allows the removal of the halyard is adaptable to the Maramu? 

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy
 
On Nov 15, 2016, at 9:09 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Hi James,
I have an SM, so not entirely the same...but here is my experience.

When I purchased Kristy 8 years ago, the sails had been discarded.  I was starting with a clean slate, but didn't know very much.  She's my first sailboat.

I knew that the original set of sails included a 150% genoa, but allowed myself to be talked down to a 135% by a sailmaker in Kemah, Texas.  He said that I wouldn't have good sail shape by the time I reefed to 15-18 kts of wind.  He may have been right, but as light winds are more of a problem than too much wind, I regret not having the 150.  In addition, the 135 is cut with the clew 1.2 meters above the safety rail.  This further reduces my sail area in light air.  If I were to do it again, I would have a 150 with the fo ot just above the safety rail. (Assuming that it would still work well with the downwind pole.)

I also have a 110 Genoa with a high cut clew, almost a Yankee.  It is my go-to sail in the Eastern Caribbean during the winter months when the trades blow 20-25 kts all the time.

The main and mizzen have short vertical battens that have never been a problem.  You just have to keep the boom at 90 degrees to the mast when furling in or out.  Watch the battens as they enter the mast, they should enter all at once, not at any angle.

My sails are 8 years old and still look very good.  They are Dacron with Spectra and I was told they should last 12-15 years.  They aren't racing sails, but they do what I want them to do very well.

If I am still sailing when my current sails need replacing, I don't think I'd change anything except that I'd go with the 150 genoa.

I have a spinnaker that came with the boat, but I've never used it.  Anyone interested?  Pay for shipping and you can have it.  I love the double pole rig for downwind sailing.

I also have a Gale Sail that straps around the furled headsail. I put it up once but have never actually used it to sail with....I try to stay out of those conditions.  I've been in 35-40 kts a couple of times, both times with the 110 Yankee up. She did great jib and jigger with the 110 furled about 20% and the mizzen at the spreader.

Don't know if that helps you at all, jus t recounting my experience.  I don't really have anything to compare it to.

Steady as she goes.

Kent
S/V Kristy
SM243




karkauai
 

James,
I have only changed the headsail at sea one time, and even the 135 took all four crew to fold and stow.  Since then, I have changed sails when at anchor, and even single handed I can manage it with a lot of effort.  I make a decision which sail I am going to use and live with it until I am back in a protected place again.  The 110 still moves the boat adequately (not fast) in 8-10 knots.  All my sails are sturdy and can withstand 30+ knot winds when reefed to a small area, but upwind performance is poor once the 135 is reefed past 30-40% below full sail.

If I anticipate consistent 15-20+kt winds, I use the 110.

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
SM243


karkauai
 

Hi Bill.  I have heard you say before that you wouldn't use vertical battens with our in mast furling.  I've had mine for 8 years and have had no problems furling them or with chafing of the sails or pockets.  The battens are 1/4" thick and 1" wide.  I can furl without problems even when the wind isn't on the nose by rolling it up so that the battens are on the outside of the roll (so that the battens don't have to go past the edge of the slot in the mast...if on a port tack I furl in the direction that rolls the sail onto the port side of the foil...there is plenty of room for the battens to clear the slot.)

I lost a batten once, but the bottom of the pocket was not sewn properly.  Other than that I've had no problems at all.

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
SM243


Ian Park
 

James

Like Kent I don’t have a wealth of experience to make judgements on. But for my pennyworth here are my experiences.

On my previous boat,  Jeanneau 37, I was persuaded to have my new mainsail with  short vertical battens to increase the leach area. From the start the sail would jam until I recognised what Kent does – watch carefully when furling the mainsail to ensure the battens are absolutely vertical to the slot. The jamming, which I experienced again furling in very heavy weather, did stretch the leach of the sail. In part the sailmaker was to blame for not inspecting the mast slot which was quite narrow due to the plastic inserts which protected the sail fabric. The other bit of blame goes down to my lack of experience in boats and sails at that time.

 

Amels have a much more generous slot and I have yet to hear of a sail ever getting stuck when furling. I have great faith in mine.

 

We bought our Santorin in the Med and sailed it back to Wales for a refit. We crossed Biscay very comfortably in 40 knots of wind on the stern quarter with a furled genoa. We subsequently cruised the West Coast of Scotland in heavy weather. The boat was brilliant, but the genoa did not furl well. It had no foam luff and therefor many creases after the first couple of rolls. This did affect its windward sailing.

 

In the Cape Verdes a fellow cruiser took some photos of us under full sail, and I was alarmed at the shape of the genoa. Every panel was stretched and the sail no longer a smooth curve!

 

However the material was still very sound and we crossed the Atlantic with 7 of the 13 days under poled out genoa and ballooner. We had used the ballooner down the Moroccan coast for 3 days. We don’t reef at nightfall at all on the boat as it is so easy to reef whenever required (we sail just the two of us). We did get 35 knots blow up one night and just furled the two headsails down to almost pocket handkerchiefs and ran downwind till the wind died down in the morning.

 

In Trinidad last season we had a new Genoa made. Ullman sails looked at the main and mizzen and said they were good for a few more miles, but replaced the leaches which had stretched a bit – they do get the most wear. He advised us to have a 135% genoa which I wondered about, but in the end decided to go with (plus a foam luff).

 

This has been wonderful in the Caribbean. Sets well, reefs well. Most importantly for us ( a cruising couple) we can see forward under the genoa much better without constantly having to stretch out over the rail to see ahead.

 

We haven’t had the opportunity to use twin headsails again in the last 3 years, so I can’t make any comment there.

 

My only advice is to consider your sailing plans (including crew). How much do you want to sail fast (ok all of us do) vs comfortable cruising? How much downwind sailing will you do. (only 50% of our Atlantic crossing allowed the twin headsails, and none since then).

One question to ask is do you have room to keep your old genoa – the shape of it doesn’t matter downwind. We didn’t have the space on our Santorin so it had to go.

 

A final point, from a cruiser perspective, unless it blows a force 4 and above we generally end up sailing motor assisted, but at 70 years old dancing on the foredeck now only appeals with the right music and in a decent anchorage!

 

Good luck with your decision!

 

Ian and Linda

 

Ocean Hobo  SN96

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


eric freedman
 


Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Kent, 

Good for you, but you are the minority on this issue. I have talked to too many SM owners that have regrets. I did say that I had no personal knowledge...and that is because I would not do it.

I did not even get into why in my previous posting. We have sailed BeBe 40,000 miles and around the world. I cannot think of one time that I regretted not having vertical battens. Even if there were a benefit and no downside, what does the benefit get you, unless you are racing. I know no SM owner that is racing. They are all cruising and most are world cruising.

There are times that I regretted not having a cutter rig like a 54, 55, etc., but those times were not enough for me to consider modifying BeBe or buying a 54, 55, etc.

Bill
BeBe 387

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi Bill.  I have heard you say before that you wouldn't use vertical battens with our in mast furling.  I've had mine for 8 years and have had no problems furling them or with chafing of the sails or pockets.  The battens are 1/4" thick and 1" wide.  I can furl without problems even when the wind isn't on the nose by rolling it up so that the battens are on the outside of the roll (so that the battens don't have to go past the edge of the slot in the mast...if on a port tack I furl in the direction that rolls the sail onto the port side of the foil...there is plenty of room for the battens to clear the slot.)

I lost a batten once, but the bottom of the pocket was not sewn properly.  Other than that I've had no problems at all.

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
SM243



Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Ian,

Your point on the foam luff on a genoa is spot-on. 

I see a lot of SM with new sails and the owner omitted this option, but complains about furled sail shape.

I am convinced that it is an option that everyone should buy.

Bill
BeBe 387

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 12:56 PM, parkianj@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

James

Like Kent I don’t have a wealth of experience to make judgements on. But for my pennyworth here are my experiences.

On my previous boat,  Jeanneau 37, I was persuaded to have my new mainsail with  short vertical battens to increase the leach area. From the start the sail would jam until I recognised what Kent does – watch carefully when furling the mainsail to ensure the battens are absolutely vertical to the slot. The jamming, which I experienced again furling in very heavy weather, did stretch the leach of the sail. In part the sailmaker was to blame for not inspecting the mast slot which was quite narrow due to the plastic inserts which protected the sail fabric. The other bit of blame goes down to my lack of experience in boats and sails at that time.

 

Amels have a much more generous slot and I have yet to hear of a sail ever getting stuck when furling. I have great faith in mine.

 

We bought our Santorin in the Med and sailed it back to Wales for a refit. We crossed Biscay very comfortably in 40 knots of wind on the stern quarter with a furled genoa. We subsequently cruised the West Coast of Scotland in heavy weather. The boat was brilliant, but the genoa did not furl well. It had no foam luff and therefor many creases after the first couple of rolls. This did affect its windward sailing.

 

In the Cape Verdes a fellow cruiser took some photos of us under full sail, and I was alarmed at the shape of the genoa. Every panel was stretched and the sail no longer a smooth curve!

 

However the material was still very sound and we crossed the Atlantic with 7 of the 13 days under poled out genoa and ballooner. We had used the ballooner down the Moroccan coast for 3 days. We don’t reef at nightfall at all on the boat as it is so easy to reef whenever required (we sail just the two of us). We did get 35 knots blow up one night and just furled the two headsails down to almost pocket handkerchiefs and ran downwind till the wind died down in the morning.

 

In Trinidad last season we had a new Genoa made. Ullman sails looked at the main and mizzen and said they were good for a few more miles, but replaced the leaches which had stretched a bit – they do get the most wear. He advised us to have a 135% genoa which I wondered about, but in the end decided to go with (plus a foam luff).

 

This has been wonderful in the Caribbean. Sets well, reefs well. Most importantly for us ( a cruising couple) we can see forward under the genoa much better without constantly having to stretch out over the rail to see ahead.

 

We haven’t had the opportunity to use twin headsails again in the last 3 years, so I can’t make any comment there.

 

My only advice is to consider your sailing plans (including crew). How much do you want to sail fast (ok all of us do) vs comfortable cruising? How much downwind sailing will you do. (only 50% of our Atlantic crossing allowed the twin headsails, and none since then).

One question to ask is do you have room to keep your old genoa – the shape of it doesn’t matter downwind. We didn’t have the space on our Santorin so it had to go.

 

A final point, from a cruiser perspective, unless it blows a force 4 and above we generally end up sailing motor assisted, but at 70 years old dancing on the foredeck now only appeals with the right music and in a decent anchorage!

 

Good luck with your decision!

 

Ian and Linda

 

Ocean Hobo  SN96

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 



Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

James,

From a slightly different perspective…

You are certainly right, changing from a 150% on a foil to a smaller sail in wind conditions where that would actually be  needed, is a real handful for a short handed crew.  Corralling that sail coming down is not something that one or even two people can easily handle in 25 knots of wind and a seaway.  It can be done… but it’s not my idea of fun.

I have found from experience that rigging a GaleSail most certainly IS a challenge.  Of course it is!  You only do it when the wind is blowing the oysters off the rocks and the bow is underwater half the time!  But it is no worse than taking down a large hanked-on sail and putting up a smaller one.  When you see comments about them, you have to remember that everybody who buys one has a roller furling jib, and the idea of going forward to install a new sail in rough conditions is not something they are used to. Having said that, I don’t have one on my Amel, and it isn’t on my list of things to add.

I think you would find the difference in performance between a roller furling 150% and a 135% to be very small, except under a very narrow range of wind speeds and angles.  Especially if the large sail is heavy enough to be useful in heavy winds, it then collapses in the light winds that should be its forte.  While it is certainly true that a sail that comes down as low to the deck as possible is more efficient, the loss of visibility to leeward can be a big deal if you sail shorthanded where there are other boats or obstacles around. I watched somebody run down hard on a buoy they didn’t see coming under their big decksweeping genoa. Is small performance difference worth the extra hassle?  That is something only you can answer for yourself.  It’s just a priority thing. I don’t let Formula 1 drivers tell me how to set up my car, and I don’t let racing sailors tell me how to rig my boat.

I have sailed boats with vertical battens in the mainsail.  I found them to be fussy on rolling.  Not impossible or fatally flawed, just fussy. The very opposite of a standard Amel mainsail, but some people are fine with the the bit of fussy needed. Again, priorities.  If your sailmaker convinces you that they are the way to go, I would insist on a guarantee they work--for you--the way you sail--and a free recut to a batten-less hollow leech if you are not happy.  Again, there is, of course, a performance penalty for the hollow leech when close hauled, but it is not huge.  And on other points of sail, it would be almost unnoticeable.  The best argument in favor of battens might be to reduce leech flutter and help the sail last longer.

One consideration: Can you get the sail out and useful if the engine is not available to help hold the boat into the wind?  Engines are not 100% reliable, and the ability to put up sail in an emergency is not something I would trade for a small performance benefit. If the jib alone will hold you high enough into the wind to get out the mainsail, then good enough.

Lot’s of good sailmakers in the world, many with Amel sail experience.  I needed a new ballooner recently, and I crossed off everybody on my list who didn’t know what that was.  


Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Nov 16, 2016, at 10:37, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


James,

You asked: "Can anyone tell me if the special Amel locking mechanism for the ballooner which allows the removal of the halyard is adaptable to the Maramu?"

The swivel is what needs to be changed and I understand from a rigger in Malta that the swivel is available, but since I never looked into it, I am not sure where. Possibly from Amel. You would need the swivel, a 3 slot foil, a "hooker" and a "de-hooker."

Since you would need a 3-slot foil, I am not sure that you would consider this unless you were replacing the foil.

Several SM owners have bought tri-radial cut hydranet sails from a sailmaker in Ismir, Turkey. I have toured the loft and was impressed. All that I know bought from them, are as satisfied as we were. They ship worldwide. Email: Tahsin Oge ogemar.com>. 

I do not have direct experience with a Maramu, but I would NOT use vertical battens in a Super Maramu furling mast. It was not made to accommodate battens and you will have some issues with wear and the ability to furl at any angle other than the wind at 0 degrees...and the difficulty is proportional with the wind speed.

Bill
BeBe 387

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:45 AM, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Kent,


   Many thanks for your response to my questions about Amel sail inventory and especially the details of your experience with the battens.  

   Based just on this seasons sailing on Sueno, I agree with you that the original 150 Genoa is a very good solution for my boat and apparently yours as well.  It is a pretty big sail to store in a locker while a smaller sail is installed on the furler such as a working jib or the 110 Yankee cut sail that you mentioned.   All of my previous boats had hank on sails, which are relatively easy to control and change offshore due to the many fastening points.  On a furling sail that slides into a groove and is essentially free once lowered I cannot imagine that changing from the 150 to the 110 offshore in a bit of wind would be much fun.   This is why I was wondering about the Code 0 option.  It is a lightly made sail that hoists on a halyard ahead of the furler.  The sail is on a line furler so that when hoisted it is rolled up and can be lowered in the same state.  The Code 0 could be a significantly  larger than the 150 Genoa and would pack down into a smaller/lighter package when stowed.  This would allow the smaller jib to live permanently on the furler.  My Amel and the furling system in general is relatively new to me, so comments such as yours are a big help in making the right decisions on the new sails.  

   I have not read many positive things about the Gale sail and have never used one to date.  I wonder if there is a risk of damage to the furled sail from chafe?

   I do strongly feel that I want to have a headsail solution available on my boat that is strong enough to use deeply reefed and is easy to tack.  

   And yes, it is certainly possible these days with careful planning to avoid most of the higher wind conditions.  Our planned route will take us around South Africa however and that is one example where I think it may come down to the luck of the draw and I want to be ready…

   I have not yet used the double pole arrangement for downwind sailing but spinnakers I are not a good option for cruising in my mind either.  

   Can anyone tell me if the special Amel locking mechanism for the ballooner which allows the removal of the halyard is adaptable to the Maramu? 

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy
 
On Nov 15, 2016, at 9:09 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Hi James,
I have an SM, so not entirely the same...but here is my experience.

When I purchased Kristy 8 years ago, the sails had been discarded.  I was starting with a clean slate, but didn't know very much.  She's my first sailboat.

I knew that the original set of sails included a 150% genoa, but allowed myself to be talked down to a 135% by a sailmaker in Kemah, Texas.  He said that I wouldn't have good sail shape by the time I reefed to 15-18 kts of wind.  He may have been right, but as light winds are more of a problem than too much wind, I regret not having the 150.  In addition, the 135 is cut with the clew 1.2 meters above the safety rail.  This further reduces my sail area in light air.  If I were to do it again, I would have a 150 with the fo ot just above the safety rail. (Assuming that it would still work well with the downwind pole.)

I also have a 110 Genoa with a high cut clew, almost a Yankee.  It is my go-to sail in the Eastern Caribbean during the winter months when the trades blow 20-25 kts all the time.

The main and mizzen have short vertical battens that have never been a problem.  You just have to keep the boom at 90 degrees to the mast when furling in or out.  Watch the battens as they enter the mast, they should enter all at once, not at any angle.

My sails are 8 years old and still look very good.  They are Dacron with Spectra and I was told they should last 12-15 years.  They aren't racing sails, but they do what I want them to do very well.

If I am still sailing when my current sails need replacing, I don't think I'd change anything except that I'd go with the 150 genoa.

I have a spinnaker that came with the boat, but I've never used it.  Anyone interested?  Pay for shipping and you can have it.  I love the double pole rig for downwind sailing.

I also have a Gale Sail that straps around the furled headsail. I put it up once but have never actually used it to sail with....I try to stay out of those conditions.  I've been in 35-40 kts a couple of times, both times with the 110 Yankee up. She did great jib and jigger with the 110 furled about 20% and the mizzen at the spreader.

Don't know if that helps you at all, jus t recounting my experience.  I don't really have anything to compare it to.

Steady as she goes.

Kent
S/V Kristy
SM243







Stephen MORRISON <steve_morrison@...>
 

Hi all,

Last week we became the new caretakers of SM2K #380.  She was originally named Feria and then Lady T, and is now Tourai.  Like a few others here, we are looking at new sails and will meet next week with Peter Grimm of Super Sailmakers in Ft. Lauderdale.  Has anyone else used them for their Amels?  He mentioned that he was putting together a couple ballooners at the moment and so I am curious if perhaps Harmonie is headed that way to pick up theirs from him?  Thanks to all for such a wonderfully active, supportive, and particularly useful user group.  

All the best,
Steve Morrison



On Nov 16, 2016, at 12:51 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

James,


From a slightly different perspective…

You are certainly right, changing from a 150% on a foil to a smaller sail in wind conditions where that would actually be  needed, is a real handful for a short handed crew.  Corralling that sail coming down is not something that one or even two people can easily handle in 25 knots of wind and a seaway.  It can be done… but it’s not my idea of fun.

I have found from experience that rigging a GaleSail most certainly IS a challenge.  Of course it is!  You only do it when the wind is blowing the oysters off the rocks and the bow is underwater half the time!  But it is no worse than taking down a large hanked-on sail and putting up a smaller one.  When you see comments about them, you have to remember that everybody who buys one has a roller furling jib, and the idea of going forward to install a new sail in rough conditions is not something they are used to. Having said that, I don’t have one on my Amel, and it isn’t on my list of things to add.

I think you would find the difference in performance between a roller furling 150% and a 135% to be very small, except under a very narrow range of wind speeds and angles.  Especially if the large sail is heavy enough to be useful in heavy winds, it then collapses in the light winds that should be its forte.  While it is certainly true that a sail that comes down as low to the deck as possible is more efficient, the loss of visibility to leeward can be a big deal if you sail shorthanded where there are other boats or obstacles around. I watched somebody run down hard on a buoy they didn’t see coming under their big decksweeping genoa. Is small performance difference worth the extra hassle?  That is something only you can answer for yourself.  It’s just a priority thing. I don’t let Formula 1 drivers tell me how to set up my car, and I don’t let racing sailors tell me how to rig my boat.

I have sailed boats with vertical battens in the mainsail.  I found them to be fussy on rolling.  Not impossible or fatally flawed, just fussy. The very opposite of a standard Amel mainsail, but some people are fine with the the bit of fussy needed. Again, priorities.  If your sailmaker convinces you that they are the way to go, I would insist on a guarantee they work--for you--the way you sail--and a free recut to a batten-less hollow leech if you are not happy.  Again, there is, of course, a performance penalty for the hollow leech when close hauled, but it is not huge.  And on other points of sail, it would be almost unnoticeable.  The best argument in favor of battens might be to reduce leech flutter and help the sail last longer.

One consideration: Can you get the sail out and useful if the engine is not available to help hold the boat into the wind?  Engines are not 100% reliable, and the ability to put up sail in an emergency is not something I would trade for a small performance benefit. If the jib alone will hold you high enough into the wind to get out the mainsail, then good enough.

Lot’s of good sailmakers in the world, many with Amel sail experience.  I needed a new ballooner recently, and I crossed off everybody on my list who didn’t know what that was.  


Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Nov 16, 2016, at 10:37, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


James,

You asked: "Can anyone tell me if the special Amel locking mechanism for the ballooner which allows the removal of the halyard is adaptable to the Maramu?"

The swivel is what needs to be changed and I understand from a rigger in Malta that the swivel is available, but since I never looked into it, I am not sure where. Possibly from Amel. You would need the swivel, a 3 slot foil, a "hooker" and a "de-hooker."

Since you would need a 3-slot foil, I am not sure that you would consider this unless you were replacing the foil.

Several SM owners have bought tri-radial cut hydranet sails from a sailmaker in Ismir, Turkey. I have toured the loft and was impressed. All that I know bought from them, are as satisfied as we were. They ship worldwide. Email: Tahsin Oge ogemar.com>. 

I do not have direct experience with a Maramu, but I would NOT use vertical battens in a Super Maramu furling mast. It was not made to accommodate battens and you will have some issues with wear and the ability to furl at any angle other than the wind at 0 degrees...and the difficulty is proportional with the wind speed.

Bill
BeBe 387

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:45 AM, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Kent,


   Many thanks for your response to my questions about Amel sail inventory and especially the details of your experience with the battens.  

   Based just on this seasons sailing on Sueno, I agree with you that the original 150 Genoa is a very good solution for my boat and apparently yours as well.  It is a pretty big sail to store in a locker while a smaller sail is installed on the furler such as a working jib or the 110 Yankee cut sail that you mentioned.   All of my previous boats had hank on sails, which are relatively easy to control and change offshore due to the many fastening points.  On a furling sail that slides into a groove and is essentially free once lowered I cannot imagine that changing from the 150 to the 110 offshore in a bit of wind would be much fun.   This is why I was wondering about the Code 0 option.  It is a lightly made sail that hoists on a halyard ahead of the furler.  The sail is on a line furler so that when hoisted it is rolled up and can be lowered in the same state.  The Code 0 could be a significantly  larger than the 150 Genoa and would pack down into a smaller/lighter package when stowed.  This would allow the smaller jib to live permanently on the furler.  My Amel and the furling system in general is relatively new to me, so comments such as yours are a big help in making the right decisions on the new sails.  

   I have not read many positive things about the Gale sail and have never used one to date.  I wonder if there is a risk of damage to the furled sail from chafe?

   I do strongly feel that I want to have a headsail solution available on my boat that is strong enough to use deeply reefed and is easy to tack.  

   And yes, it is certainly possible these days with careful planning to avoid most of the higher wind conditions.  Our planned route will take us around South Africa however and that is one example where I think it may come down to the luck of the draw and I want to be ready…

   I have not yet used the double pole arrangement for downwind sailing but spinnakers I are not a good option for cruising in my mind either.  

   Can anyone tell me if the special Amel locking mechanism for the ballooner which allows the removal of the halyard is adaptable to the Maramu? 

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy
 
On Nov 15, 2016, at 9:09 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Hi James,
I have an SM, so not entirely the same...but here is my experience.

When I purchased Kristy 8 years ago, the sails had been discarded.  I was starting with a clean slate, but didn't know very much.  She's my first sailboat.

I knew that the original set of sails included a 150% genoa, but allowed myself to be talked down to a 135% by a sailmaker in Kemah, Texas.  He said that I wouldn't have good sail shape by the time I reefed to 15-18 kts of wind.  He may have been right, but as light winds are more of a problem than too much wind, I regret not having the 150.  In addition, the 135 is cut with the clew 1.2 meters above the safety rail.  This further reduces my sail area in light air.  If I were to do it again, I would have a 150 with the fo ot just above the safety rail. (Assuming that it would still work well with the downwind pole.)

I also have a 110 Genoa with a high cut clew, almost a Yankee.  It is my go-to sail in the Eastern Caribbean during the winter months when the trades blow 20-25 kts all the time.

The main and mizzen have short vertical battens that have never been a problem.  You just have to keep the boom at 90 degrees to the mast when furling in or out.  Watch the battens as they enter the mast, they should enter all at once, not at any angle.

My sails are 8 years old and still look very good.  They are Dacron with Spectra and I was told they should last 12-15 years.  They aren't racing sails, but they do what I want them to do very well.

If I am still sailing when my current sails need replacing, I don't think I'd change anything except that I'd go with the 150 genoa.

I have a spinnaker that came with the boat, but I've never used it.  Anyone interested?  Pay for shipping and you can have it.  I love the double pole rig for downwind sailing.

I also have a Gale Sail that straps around the furled headsail. I put it up once but have never actually used it to sail with....I try to stay out of those conditions.  I've been in 35-40 kts a couple of times, both times with the 110 Yankee up. She did great jib and jigger with the 110 furled about 20% and the mizzen at the spreader.

Don't know if that helps you at all, jus t recounting my experience.  I don't really have anything to compare it to.

Steady as she goes.

Kent
S/V Kristy
SM243









Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

Steven,

Our ballooner is coming from Island Planet Sails, Dave Benjamin’s company. A good guy. In a previous life we were co-workers.

I do wish we had it on the way down over the last few days, it was all straight downwind!

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Nov 16, 2016, at 13:59, Stephen MORRISON steve_morrison@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Hi all,


Last week we became the new caretakers of SM2K #380.  She was originally named Feria and then Lady T, and is now Tourai.  Like a few others here, we are looking at new sails and will meet next week with Peter Grimm of Super Sailmakers in Ft. Lauderdale.  Has anyone else used them for their Amels?  He mentioned that he was putting together a couple ballooners at the moment and so I am curious if perhaps Harmonie is headed that way to pick up theirs from him?  Thanks to all for such a wonderfully active, supportive, and particularly useful user group.  

All the best,
Steve Morrison



On Nov 16, 2016, at 12:51 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

James,


From a slightly different perspective…

You are certainly right, changing from a 150% on a foil to a smaller sail in wind conditions where that would actually be  needed, is a real handful for a short handed crew.  Corralling that sail coming down is not something that one or even two people can easily handle in 25 knots of wind and a seaway.  It can be done… but it’s not my idea of fun.

I have found from experience that rigging a GaleSail most certainly IS a challenge.  Of course it is!  You only do it when the wind is blowing the oysters off the rocks and the bow is underwater half the time!  But it is no worse than taking down a large hanked-on sail and putting up a smaller one.  When you see comments about them, you have to remember that everybody who buys one has a roller furling jib, and the idea of going forward to install a new sail in rough conditions is not something they are used to. Having said that, I don’t have one on my Amel, and it isn’t on my list of things to add.

I think you would find the difference in performance between a roller furling 150% and a 135% to be very small, except under a very narrow range of wind speeds and angles.  Especially if the large sail is heavy enough to be useful in heavy winds, it then collapses in the light winds that should be its forte.  While it is certainly true that a sail that comes down as low to the deck as possible is more efficient, the loss of visibility to leeward can be a big deal if you sail shorthanded where there are other boats or obstacles around. I watched somebody run down hard on a buoy they didn’t see coming under their big decksweeping genoa. Is small performance difference worth the extra hassle?  That is something only you can answer for yourself.  It’s just a priority thing. I don’t let Formula 1 drivers tell me how to set up my car, and I don’t let racing sailors tell me how to rig my boat.

I have sailed boats with vertical battens in the mainsail.  I found them to be fussy on rolling.  Not impossible or fatally flawed, just fussy. The very opposite of a standard Amel mainsail, but some people are fine with the the bit of fussy needed. Again, priorities.  If your sailmaker convinces you that they are the way to go, I would insist on a guarantee they work--for you--the way you sail--and a free recut to a batten-less hollow leech if you are not happy.  Again, there is, of course, a performance penalty for the hollow leech when close hauled, but it is not huge.  And on other points of sail, it would be almost unnoticeable.  The best argument in favor of battens might be to reduce leech flutter and help the sail last longer.

One consideration: Can you get the sail out and useful if the engine is not available to help hold the boat into the wind?  Engines are not 100% reliable, and the ability to put up sail in an emergency is not something I would trade for a small performance benefit. If the jib alone will hold you high enough into the wind to get out the mainsail, then good enough.

Lot’s of good sailmakers in the world, many with Amel sail experience.  I needed a new ballooner recently, and I crossed off everybody on my list who didn’t know what that was.  


Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Nov 16, 2016, at 10:37, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


James,

You asked: "Can anyone tell me if the special Amel locking mechanism for the ballooner which allows the removal of the halyard is adaptable to the Maramu?"

The swivel is what needs to be changed and I understand from a rigger in Malta that the swivel is available, but since I never looked into it, I am not sure where. Possibly from Amel. You would need the swivel, a 3 slot foil, a "hooker" and a "de-hooker."

Since you would need a 3-slot foil, I am not sure that you would consider this unless you were replacing the foil.

Several SM owners have bought tri-radial cut hydranet sails from a sailmaker in Ismir, Turkey. I have toured the loft and was impressed. All that I know bought from them, are as satisfied as we were. They ship worldwide. Email: Tahsin Oge ogemar.com>. 

I do not have direct experience with a Maramu, but I would NOT use vertical battens in a Super Maramu furling mast. It was not made to accommodate battens and you will have some issues with wear and the ability to furl at any angle other than the wind at 0 degrees...and the difficulty is proportional with the wind speed.

Bill
BeBe 387

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:45 AM, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Kent,


   Many thanks for your response to my questions about Amel sail inventory and especially the details of your experience with the battens.  

   Based just on this seasons sailing on Sueno, I agree with you that the original 150 Genoa is a very good solution for my boat and apparently yours as well.  It is a pretty big sail to store in a locker while a smaller sail is installed on the furler such as a working jib or the 110 Yankee cut sail that you mentioned.   All of my previous boats had hank on sails, which are relatively easy to control and change offshore due to the many fastening points.  On a furling sail that slides into a groove and is essentially free once lowered I cannot imagine that changing from the 150 to the 110 offshore in a bit of wind would be much fun.   This is why I was wondering about the Code 0 option.  It is a lightly made sail that hoists on a halyard ahead of the furler.  The sail is on a line furler so that when hoisted it is rolled up and can be lowered in the same state.  The Code 0 could be a significantly  larger than the 150 Genoa and would pack down into a smaller/lighter package when stowed.  This would allow the smaller jib to live permanently on the furler.  My Amel and the furling system in general is relatively new to me, so comments such as yours are a big help in making the right decisions on the new sails.  

   I have not read many positive things about the Gale sail and have never used one to date.  I wonder if there is a risk of damage to the furled sail from chafe?

   I do strongly feel that I want to have a headsail solution available on my boat that is strong enough to use deeply reefed and is easy to tack.  

   And yes, it is certainly possible these days with careful planning to avoid most of the higher wind conditions.  Our planned route will take us around South Africa however and that is one example where I think it may come down to the luck of the draw and I want to be ready…

   I have not yet used the double pole arrangement for downwind sailing but spinnakers I are not a good option for cruising in my mind either.  

   Can anyone tell me if the special Amel locking mechanism for the ballooner which allows the removal of the halyard is adaptable to the Maramu? 

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy
 
On Nov 15, 2016, at 9:09 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Hi James,
I have an SM, so not entirely the same...but here is my experience.

When I purchased Kristy 8 years ago, the sails had been discarded.  I was starting with a clean slate, but didn't know very much.  She's my first sailboat.

I knew that the original set of sails included a 150% genoa, but allowed myself to be talked down to a 135% by a sailmaker in Kemah, Texas.  He said that I wouldn't have good sail shape by the time I reefed to 15-18 kts of wind.  He may have been right, but as light winds are more of a problem than too much wind, I regret not having the 150.  In addition, the 135 is cut with the clew 1.2 meters above the safety rail.  This further reduces my sail area in light air.  If I were to do it again, I would have a 150 with the fo ot just above the safety rail. (Assuming that it would still work well with the downwind pole.)

I also have a 110 Genoa with a high cut clew, almost a Yankee.  It is my go-to sail in the Eastern Caribbean during the winter months when the trades blow 20-25 kts all the time.

The main and mizzen have short vertical battens that have never been a problem.  You just have to keep the boom at 90 degrees to the mast when furling in or out.  Watch the battens as they enter the mast, they should enter all at once, not at any angle.

My sails are 8 years old and still look very good.  They are Dacron with Spectra and I was told they should last 12-15 years.  They aren't racing sails, but they do what I want them to do very well.

If I am still sailing when my current sails need replacing, I don't think I'd change anything except that I'd go with the 150 genoa.

I have a spinnaker that came with the boat, but I've never used it.  Anyone interested?  Pay for shipping and you can have it.  I love the double pole rig for downwind sailing.

I also have a Gale Sail that straps around the furled headsail. I put it up once but have never actually used it to sail with....I try to stay out of those conditions.  I've been in 35-40 kts a couple of times, both times with the 110 Yankee up. She did great jib and jigger with the 110 furled about 20% and the mizzen at the spreader.

Don't know if that helps you at all, jus t recounting my experience.  I don't really have anything to compare it to.

Steady as she goes.

Kent
S/V Kristy
SM243











James Alton
 

Bill,

   Thanks for the knowledgeable response on upgrading Sueno to the Super Maramu arrangement so that the ballooner halyard can be removed.  I am about to also change the forestay so if I was going to change the foil this would be a good time to do it.  

   Thanks for the Turkey sailmaker link,  I will look into getting some quotes.

   I do hear what you are saying about battens in the main and the mizzen and I think that you make some good points.  

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy

On Nov 16, 2016, at 11:37 AM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


James,

You asked: "Can anyone tell me if the special Amel locking mechanism for the ballooner which allows the removal of the halyard is adaptable to the Maramu?"

The swivel is what needs to be changed and I understand from a rigger in Malta that the swivel is available, but since I never looked into it, I am not sure where. Possibly from Amel. You would need the swivel, a 3 slot foil, a "hooker" and a "de-hooker."

Since you would need a 3-slot foil, I am not sure that you would consider this unless you were replacing the foil.

Several SM owners have bought tri-radial cut hydranet sails from a sailmaker in Ismir, Turkey. I have toured the loft and was impressed. All that I know bought from them, are as satisfied as we were. They ship worldwide. Email: Tahsin Oge ogemar.com>. 

I do not have direct experience with a Maramu, but I would NOT use vertical battens in a Super Maramu furling mast. It was not made to accommodate battens and you will have some issues with wear and the ability to furl at any angle other than the wind at 0 degrees...and the difficulty is proportional with the wind speed.

Bill
BeBe 387

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:45 AM, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Kent,


   Many thanks for your response to my questions about Amel sail inventory and especially the details of your experience with the battens.  

   Based just on this seasons sailing on Sueno, I agree with you that the original 150 Genoa is a very good solution for my boat and apparently yours as well.  It is a pretty big sail to store in a locker while a smaller sail is installed on the furler such as a working jib or the 110 Yankee cut sail that you mentioned.   All of my previous boats had hank on sails, which are relatively easy to control and change offshore due to the many fastening points.  On a furling sail that slides into a groove and is essentially free once lowered I cannot imagine that changing from the 150 to the 110 offshore in a bit of wind would be much fun.   This is why I was wondering about the Code 0 option.  It is a lightly made sail that hoists on a halyard ahead of the furler.  The sail is on a line furler so that when hoisted it is rolled up and can be lowered in the same state.  The Code 0 could be a significantly  larger than the 150 Genoa and would pack down into a smaller/lighter package when stowed.  This would allow the smaller jib to live permanently on the furler.  My Amel and the furling system in general is relatively new to me, so comments such as yours are a big help in making the right decisions on the new sails.  

   I have not read many positive things about the Gale sail and have never used one to date.  I wonder if there is a risk of damage to the furled sail from chafe?

   I do strongly feel that I want to have a headsail solution available on my boat that is strong enough to use deeply reefed and is easy to tack.  

   And yes, it is certainly possible these days with careful planning to avoid most of the higher wind conditions.  Our planned route will take us around South Africa however and that is one example where I think it may come down to the luck of the draw and I want to be ready…

   I have not yet used the double pole arrangement for downwind sailing but spinnakers I are not a good option for cruising in my mind either.  

   Can anyone tell me if the special Amel locking mechanism for the ballooner which allows the removal of the halyard is adaptable to the Maramu? 

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy
 
On Nov 15, 2016, at 9:09 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Hi James,
I have an SM, so not entirely the same...but here is my experience.

When I purchased Kristy 8 years ago, the sails had been discarded.  I was starting with a clean slate, but didn't know very much.  She's my first sailboat.

I knew that the original set of sails included a 150% genoa, but allowed myself to be talked down to a 135% by a sailmaker in Kemah, Texas.  He said that I wouldn't have good sail shape by the time I reefed to 15-18 kts of wind.  He may have been right, but as light winds are more of a problem than too much wind, I regret not having the 150.  In addition, the 135 is cut with the clew 1.2 meters above the safety rail.  This further reduces my sail area in light air.  If I were to do it again, I would have a 150 with the fo ot just above the safety rail. (Assuming that it would still work well with the downwind pole.)

I also have a 110 Genoa with a high cut clew, almost a Yankee.  It is my go-to sail in the Eastern Caribbean during the winter months when the trades blow 20-25 kts all the time.

The main and mizzen have short vertical battens that have never been a problem.  You just have to keep the boom at 90 degrees to the mast when furling in or out.  Watch the battens as they enter the mast, they should enter all at once, not at any angle.

My sails are 8 years old and still look very good.  They are Dacron with Spectra and I was told they should last 12-15 years.  They aren't racing sails, but they do what I want them to do very well.

If I am still sailing when my current sails need replacing, I don't think I'd change anything except that I'd go with the 150 genoa.

I have a spinnaker that came with the boat, but I've never used it.  Anyone interested?  Pay for shipping and you can have it.  I love the double pole rig for downwind sailing.

I also have a Gale Sail that straps around the furled headsail. I put it up once but have never actually used it to sail with....I try to stay out of those conditions.  I've been in 35-40 kts a couple of times, both times with the 110 Yankee up. She did great jib and jigger with the 110 furled about 20% and the mizzen at the spreader.

Don't know if that helps you at all, jus t recounting my experience.  I don't really have anything to compare it to.

Steady as she goes.

Kent
S/V Kristy
SM243







James Alton
 

Ian and Linda,

   I really enjoyed reading your response and appreciated getting your input.  Sueno has the Nirvana double spreader mast which might be the same rig as on your boat?  If so,  I was told that this is the same mast section used on the Super Maramu,  it would be great to get a confirmation on this.  If this is true, then it would seem logical that there may be more room inside our masts than in the Super Maramu due to our smaller sails?  I am still on the fence on the batten question but this helps,  I really appreciate the input.

   It is certainly possible to store the unused jib or genoa on Sueno but it is a pretty big item.  

   I am really leaning towards the Hydranet because I have seen so many flapping leeches on in mast furling sails.  As you point out, the Dacron sails can have a very long life expectancy but the Hydranet is apparently much more stable and resistant to stretching.  

  So does your Santorin have the triple groove foil with the lock for the ballooner? 

  Great input on the foam luff.  I am not sure of what the difference is but we could see pretty well under our original genoa so it must set a bit higher.

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy

  

On Nov 16, 2016, at 12:56 PM, parkianj@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


James

Like Kent I don’t have a wealth of experience to make judgements on. But for my pennyworth here are my experiences.

On my previous boat,  Jeanneau 37, I was persuaded to have my new mainsail with  short vertical battens to increase the leach area. From the start the sail would jam until I recognised what Kent does – watch carefully when furling the mainsail to ensure the battens are absolutely vertical to the slot. The jamming, which I experienced again furling in very heavy weather, did stretch the leach of the sail. In part the sailmaker was to blame for not inspecting the mast slot which was quite narrow due to the plastic inserts which protected the sail fabric. The other bit of blame goes down to my lack of experience in boats and sails at that time.

 

Amels have a much more generous slot and I have yet to hear of a sail ever getting stuck when furling. I have great faith in mine.

 

We bought our Santorin in the Med and sailed it back to Wales for a refit. We crossed Biscay very comfortably in 40 knots of wind on the stern quarter with a furled genoa. We subsequently cruised the West Coast of Scotland in heavy weather. The boat was brilliant, but the genoa did not furl well. It had no foam luff and therefor many creases after the first couple of rolls. This did affect its windward sailing.

 

In the Cape Verdes a fellow cruiser took some photos of us under full sail, and I was alarmed at the shape of the genoa. Every panel was stretched and the sail no longer a smooth curve!

 

However the material was still very sound and we crossed the Atlantic with 7 of the 13 days under poled out genoa and ballooner. We had used the ballooner down the Moroccan coast for 3 days. We don’t reef at nightfall at all on the boat as it is so easy to reef whenever required (we sail just the two of us). We did get 35 knots blow up one night and just furled the two headsails down to almost pocket handkerchiefs and ran downwind till the wind died down in the morning.

 

In Trinidad last season we had a new Genoa made. Ullman sails looked at the main and mizzen and said they were good for a few more miles, but replaced the leaches which had stretched a bit – they do get the most wear. He advised us to have a 135% genoa which I wondered about, but in the end decided to go with (plus a foam luff).

 

This has been wonderful in the Caribbean. Sets well, reefs well. Most importantly for us ( a cruising couple) we can see forward under the genoa much better without constantly having to stretch out over the rail to see ahead.

 

We haven’t had the opportunity to use twin headsails again in the last 3 years, so I can’t make any comment there.

 

My only advice is to consider your sailing plans (including crew). How much do you want to sail fast (ok all of us do) vs comfortable cruising? How much downwind sailing will you do. (only 50% of our Atlantic crossing allowed the twin headsails, and none since then).

One question to ask is do you have room to keep your old genoa – the shape of it doesn’t matter downwind. We didn’t have the space on our Santorin so it had to go.

 

A final point, from a cruiser perspective, unless it blows a force 4 and above we generally end up sailing motor assisted, but at 70 years old dancing on the foredeck now only appeals with the right music and in a decent anchorage!

 

Good luck with your decision!

 

Ian and Linda

 

Ocean Hobo  SN96

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 




karkauai
 

Bill, or anyone, do you know if the foam luff can be added to an existing sail?  I fit your description perfectly. "I see a lot of SM with new sails and the owner omitted this option, but complains about furled sail shape."  I don't remember the foam being an option when I bought my sails.

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
SM243


karkauai
 

Welcome and congratulations, Steve!

I hope we get to meet and swap stories over a beer/wine/rum some time.

Fair winds and steady as she goes.
Kent
SM243
Kristy


Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

Kent,

Absolutely a sailmaker can add a foam luff to an existing sail.  I did it myself to a jib on my old boat.

I had a jib where instead of foam, a pocket was made with sailcloth and lengths of line were sewn in to add the bulk needed for proper shaped furling. Also worked well.  Maybe even better.

Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Nov 16, 2016, at 15:32, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Bill, or anyone, do you know if the foam luff can be added to an existing sail?  I fit your description perfectly. "I see a lot of SM with new sails and the owner omitted this option, but complains about furled sail shape."  I don't remember the foam being an option when I bought my sails.

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
SM243



James Alton
 

Steve,

   Congratulations!  I am pretty sure that Super Sailmakers made a complete suit for Delos and their is a You tube video that shows the loft.  I have had some contact with SSM and they told me that they have made sails for a lot of other Amels but I have not verified this.  

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy

On Nov 16, 2016, at 2:59 PM, Stephen MORRISON steve_morrison@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Hi all,


Last week we became the new caretakers of SM2K #380.  She was originally named Feria and then Lady T, and is now Tourai.  Like a few others here, we are looking at new sails and will meet next week with Peter Grimm of Super Sailmakers in Ft. Lauderdale.  Has anyone else used them for their Amels?  He mentioned that he was putting together a couple ballooners at the moment and so I am curious if perhaps Harmonie is headed that way to pick up theirs from him?  Thanks to all for such a wonderfully active, supportive, and particularly useful user group.  

All the best,
Steve Morrison



On Nov 16, 2016, at 12:51 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

James,


From a slightly different perspective…

You are certainly right, changing from a 150% on a foil to a smaller sail in wind conditions where that would actually be  needed, is a real handful for a short handed crew.  Corralling that sail coming down is not something that one or even two people can easily handle in 25 knots of wind and a seaway.  It can be done… but it’s not my idea of fun.

I have found from experience that rigging a GaleSail most certainly IS a challenge.  Of course it is!  You only do it when the wind is blowing the oysters off the rocks and the bow is underwater half the time!  But it is no worse than taking down a large hanked-on sail and putting up a smaller one.  When you see comments about them, you have to remember that everybody who buys one has a roller furling jib, and the idea of going forward to install a new sail in rough conditions is not something they are used to. Having said that, I don’t have one on my Amel, and it isn’t on my list of things to add.

I think you would find the difference in performance between a roller furling 150% and a 135% to be very small, except under a very narrow range of wind speeds and angles.  Especially if the large sail is heavy enough to be useful in heavy winds, it then collapses in the light winds that should be its forte.  While it is certainly true that a sail that comes down as low to the deck as possible is more efficient, the loss of visibility to leeward can be a big deal if you sail shorthanded where there are other boats or obstacles around. I watched somebody run down hard on a buoy they didn’t see coming under their big decksweeping genoa. Is small performance difference worth the extra hassle?  That is something only you can answer for yourself.  It’s just a priority thing. I don’t let Formula 1 drivers tell me how to set up my car, and I don’t let racing sailors tell me how to rig my boat.

I have sailed boats with vertical battens in the mainsail.  I found them to be fussy on rolling.  Not impossible or fatally flawed, just fussy. The very opposite of a standard Amel mainsail, but some people are fine with the the bit of fussy needed. Again, priorities.  If your sailmaker convinces you that they are the way to go, I would insist on a guarantee they work--for you--the way you sail--and a free recut to a batten-less hollow leech if you are not happy.  Again, there is, of course, a performance penalty for the hollow leech when close hauled, but it is not huge.  And on other points of sail, it would be almost unnoticeable.  The best argument in favor of battens might be to reduce leech flutter and help the sail last longer.

One consideration: Can you get the sail out and useful if the engine is not available to help hold the boat into the wind?  Engines are not 100% reliable, and the ability to put up sail in an emergency is not something I would trade for a small performance benefit. If the jib alone will hold you high enough into the wind to get out the mainsail, then good enough.

Lot’s of good sailmakers in the world, many with Amel sail experience.  I needed a new ballooner recently, and I crossed off everybody on my list who didn’t know what that was.  


Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Nov 16, 2016, at 10:37, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


James,

You asked: "Can anyone tell me if the special Amel locking mechanism for the ballooner which allows the removal of the halyard is adaptable to the Maramu?"

The swivel is what needs to be changed and I understand from a rigger in Malta that the swivel is available, but since I never looked into it, I am not sure where. Possibly from Amel. You would need the swivel, a 3 slot foil, a "hooker" and a "de-hooker."

Since you would need a 3-slot foil, I am not sure that you would consider this unless you were replacing the foil.

Several SM owners have bought tri-radial cut hydranet sails from a sailmaker in Ismir, Turkey. I have toured the loft and was impressed. All that I know bought from them, are as satisfied as we were. They ship worldwide. Email: Tahsin Oge ogemar.com>. 

I do not have direct experience with a Maramu, but I would NOT use vertical battens in a Super Maramu furling mast. It was not made to accommodate battens and you will have some issues with wear and the ability to furl at any angle other than the wind at 0 degrees...and the difficulty is proportional with the wind speed.

Bill
BeBe 387

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:45 AM, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Kent,


   Many thanks for your response to my questions about Amel sail inventory and especially the details of your experience with the battens.  

   Based just on this seasons sailing on Sueno, I agree with you that the original 150 Genoa is a very good solution for my boat and apparently yours as well.  It is a pretty big sail to store in a locker while a smaller sail is installed on the furler such as a working jib or the 110 Yankee cut sail that you mentioned.   All of my previous boats had hank on sails, which are relatively easy to control and change offshore due to the many fastening points.  On a furling sail that slides into a groove and is essentially free once lowered I cannot imagine that changing from the 150 to the 110 offshore in a bit of wind would be much fun.   This is why I was wondering about the Code 0 option.  It is a lightly made sail that hoists on a halyard ahead of the furler.  The sail is on a line furler so that when hoisted it is rolled up and can be lowered in the same state.  The Code 0 could be a significantly  larger than the 150 Genoa and would pack down into a smaller/lighter package when stowed.  This would allow the smaller jib to live permanently on the furler.  My Amel and the furling system in general is relatively new to me, so comments such as yours are a big help in making the right decisions on the new sails.  

   I have not read many positive things about the Gale sail and have never used one to date.  I wonder if there is a risk of damage to the furled sail from chafe?

   I do strongly feel that I want to have a headsail solution available on my boat that is strong enough to use deeply reefed and is easy to tack.  

   And yes, it is certainly possible these days with careful planning to avoid most of the higher wind conditions.  Our planned route will take us around South Africa however and that is one example where I think it may come down to the luck of the draw and I want to be ready…

   I have not yet used the double pole arrangement for downwind sailing but spinnakers I are not a good option for cruising in my mind either.  

   Can anyone tell me if the special Amel locking mechanism for the ballooner which allows the removal of the halyard is adaptable to the Maramu? 

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy
 
On Nov 15, 2016, at 9:09 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Hi James,
I have an SM, so not entirely the same...but here is my experience.

When I purchased Kristy 8 years ago, the sails had been discarded.  I was starting with a clean slate, but didn't know very much.  She's my first sailboat.

I knew that the original set of sails included a 150% genoa, but allowed myself to be talked down to a 135% by a sailmaker in Kemah, Texas.  He said that I wouldn't have good sail shape by the time I reefed to 15-18 kts of wind.  He may have been right, but as light winds are more of a problem than too much wind, I regret not having the 150.  In addition, the 135 is cut with the clew 1.2 meters above the safety rail.  This further reduces my sail area in light air.  If I were to do it again, I would have a 150 with the fo ot just above the safety rail. (Assuming that it would still work well with the downwind pole.)

I also have a 110 Genoa with a high cut clew, almost a Yankee.  It is my go-to sail in the Eastern Caribbean during the winter months when the trades blow 20-25 kts all the time.

The main and mizzen have short vertical battens that have never been a problem.  You just have to keep the boom at 90 degrees to the mast when furling in or out.  Watch the battens as they enter the mast, they should enter all at once, not at any angle.

My sails are 8 years old and still look very good.  They are Dacron with Spectra and I was told they should last 12-15 years.  They aren't racing sails, but they do what I want them to do very well.

If I am still sailing when my current sails need replacing, I don't think I'd change anything except that I'd go with the 150 genoa.

I have a spinnaker that came with the boat, but I've never used it.  Anyone interested?  Pay for shipping and you can have it.  I love the double pole rig for downwind sailing.

I also have a Gale Sail that straps around the furled headsail. I put it up once but have never actually used it to sail with....I try to stay out of those conditions.  I've been in 35-40 kts a couple of times, both times with the 110 Yankee up. She did great jib and jigger with the 110 furled about 20% and the mizzen at the spreader.

Don't know if that helps you at all, jus t recounting my experience.  I don't really have anything to compare it to.

Steady as she goes.

Kent
S/V Kristy
SM243











karkauai
 

Cool, thanks, Bill.
Kent


Stephen MORRISON <steve_morrison@...>
 

Thanks James.  I have watched a great many episodes of Delos, but had not seen this one.  Thank you for pointing me this way.  Interesting to see the lofting floor put a sail together.

Steve

On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:03 PM, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Steve,


   Congratulations!  I am pretty sure that Super Sailmakers made a complete suit for Delos and their is a You tube video that shows the loft.  I have had some contact with SSM and they told me that they have made sails for a lot of other Amels but I have not verified this.  

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy

On Nov 16, 2016, at 2:59 PM, Stephen MORRISON steve_morrison@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Hi all,


Last week we became the new caretakers of SM2K #380.  She was originally named Feria and then Lady T, and is now Tourai.  Like a few others here, we are looking at new sails and will meet next week with Peter Grimm of Super Sailmakers in Ft. Lauderdale.  Has anyone else used them for their Amels?  He mentioned that he was putting together a couple ballooners at the moment and so I am curious if perhaps Harmonie is headed that way to pick up theirs from him?  Thanks to all for such a wonderfully active, supportive, and particularly useful user group.  

All the best,
Steve Morrison



On Nov 16, 2016, at 12:51 PM, Bill Kinney greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

James,


From a slightly different perspective…

You are certainly right, changing from a 150% on a foil to a smaller sail in wind conditions where that would actually be  needed, is a real handful for a short handed crew.  Corralling that sail coming down is not something that one or even two people can easily handle in 25 knots of wind and a seaway.  It can be done… but it’s not my idea of fun.

I have found from experience that rigging a GaleSail most certainly IS a challenge.  Of course it is!  You only do it when the wind is blowing the oysters off the rocks and the bow is underwater half the time!  But it is no worse than taking down a large hanked-on sail and putting up a smaller one.  When you see comments about them, you have to remember that everybody who buys one has a roller furling jib, and the idea of going forward to install a new sail in rough conditions is not something they are used to. Having said that, I don’t have one on my Amel, and it isn’t on my list of things to add.

I think you would find the difference in performance between a roller furling 150% and a 135% to be very small, except under a very narrow range of wind speeds and angles.  Especially if the large sail is heavy enough to be useful in heavy winds, it then collapses in the light winds that should be its forte.  While it is certainly true that a sail that comes down as low to the deck as possible is more efficient, the loss of visibility to leeward can be a big deal if you sail shorthanded where there are other boats or obstacles around. I watched somebody run down hard on a buoy they didn’t see coming under their big decksweeping genoa. Is small performance difference worth the extra hassle?  That is something only you can answer for yourself.  It’s just a priority thing. I don’t let Formula 1 drivers tell me how to set up my car, and I don’t let racing sailors tell me how to rig my boat.

I have sailed boats with vertical battens in the mainsail.  I found them to be fussy on rolling.  Not impossible or fatally flawed, just fussy. The very opposite of a standard Amel mainsail, but some people are fine with the the bit of fussy needed. Again, priorities.  If your sailmaker convinces you that they are the way to go, I would insist on a guarantee they work--for you--the way you sail--and a free recut to a batten-less hollow leech if you are not happy.  Again, there is, of course, a performance penalty for the hollow leech when close hauled, but it is not huge.  And on other points of sail, it would be almost unnoticeable.  The best argument in favor of battens might be to reduce leech flutter and help the sail last longer.

One consideration: Can you get the sail out and useful if the engine is not available to help hold the boat into the wind?  Engines are not 100% reliable, and the ability to put up sail in an emergency is not something I would trade for a small performance benefit. If the jib alone will hold you high enough into the wind to get out the mainsail, then good enough.

Lot’s of good sailmakers in the world, many with Amel sail experience.  I needed a new ballooner recently, and I crossed off everybody on my list who didn’t know what that was.  


Bill Kinney
SM #160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL
“Ships and men rot in port."





On Nov 16, 2016, at 10:37, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


James,

You asked: "Can anyone tell me if the special Amel locking mechanism for the ballooner which allows the removal of the halyard is adaptable to the Maramu?"

The swivel is what needs to be changed and I understand from a rigger in Malta that the swivel is available, but since I never looked into it, I am not sure where. Possibly from Amel. You would need the swivel, a 3 slot foil, a "hooker" and a "de-hooker."

Since you would need a 3-slot foil, I am not sure that you would consider this unless you were replacing the foil.

Several SM owners have bought tri-radial cut hydranet sails from a sailmaker in Ismir, Turkey. I have toured the loft and was impressed. All that I know bought from them, are as satisfied as we were. They ship worldwide. Email: Tahsin Oge ogemar.com>. 

I do not have direct experience with a Maramu, but I would NOT use vertical battens in a Super Maramu furling mast. It was not made to accommodate battens and you will have some issues with wear and the ability to furl at any angle other than the wind at 0 degrees...and the difficulty is proportional with the wind speed.

Bill
BeBe 387

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:45 AM, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Kent,


   Many thanks for your response to my questions about Amel sail inventory and especially the details of your experience with the battens.  

   Based just on this seasons sailing on Sueno, I agree with you that the original 150 Genoa is a very good solution for my boat and apparently yours as well.  It is a pretty big sail to store in a locker while a smaller sail is installed on the furler such as a working jib or the 110 Yankee cut sail that you mentioned.   All of my previous boats had hank on sails, which are relatively easy to control and change offshore due to the many fastening points.  On a furling sail that slides into a groove and is essentially free once lowered I cannot imagine that changing from the 150 to the 110 offshore in a bit of wind would be much fun.   This is why I was wondering about the Code 0 option.  It is a lightly made sail that hoists on a halyard ahead of the furler.  The sail is on a line furler so that when hoisted it is rolled up and can be lowered in the same state.  The Code 0 could be a significantly  larger than the 150 Genoa and would pack down into a smaller/lighter package when stowed.  This would allow the smaller jib to live permanently on the furler.  My Amel and the furling system in general is relatively new to me, so comments such as yours are a big help in making the right decisions on the new sails.  

   I have not read many positive things about the Gale sail and have never used one to date.  I wonder if there is a risk of damage to the furled sail from chafe?

   I do strongly feel that I want to have a headsail solution available on my boat that is strong enough to use deeply reefed and is easy to tack.  

   And yes, it is certainly possible these days with careful planning to avoid most of the higher wind conditions.  Our planned route will take us around South Africa however and that is one example where I think it may come down to the luck of the draw and I want to be ready…

   I have not yet used the double pole arrangement for downwind sailing but spinnakers I are not a good option for cruising in my mind either.  

   Can anyone tell me if the special Amel locking mechanism for the ballooner which allows the removal of the halyard is adaptable to the Maramu? 

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220
Arbatax,  Italy
 
On Nov 15, 2016, at 9:09 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Hi James,
I have an SM, so not entirely the same...but here is my experience.

When I purchased Kristy 8 years ago, the sails had been discarded.  I was starting with a clean slate, but didn't know very much.  She's my first sailboat.

I knew that the original set of sails included a 150% genoa, but allowed myself to be talked down to a 135% by a sailmaker in Kemah, Texas.  He said that I wouldn't have good sail shape by the time I reefed to 15-18 kts of wind.  He may have been right, but as light winds are more of a problem than too much wind, I regret not having the 150.  In addition, the 135 is cut with the clew 1.2 meters above the safety rail.  This further reduces my sail area in light air.  If I were to do it again, I would have a 150 with the fo ot just above the safety rail. (Assuming that it would still work well with the downwind pole.)

I also have a 110 Genoa with a high cut clew, almost a Yankee.  It is my go-to sail in the Eastern Caribbean during the winter months when the trades blow 20-25 kts all the time.

The main and mizzen have short vertical battens that have never been a problem.  You just have to keep the boom at 90 degrees to the mast when furling in or out.  Watch the battens as they enter the mast, they should enter all at once, not at any angle.

My sails are 8 years old and still look very good.  They are Dacron with Spectra and I was told they should last 12-15 years.  They aren't racing sails, but they do what I want them to do very well.

If I am still sailing when my current sails need replacing, I don't think I'd change anything except that I'd go with the 150 genoa.

I have a spinnaker that came with the boat, but I've never used it.  Anyone interested?  Pay for shipping and you can have it.  I love the double pole rig for downwind sailing.

I also have a Gale Sail that straps around the furled headsail. I put it up once but have never actually used it to sail with....I try to stay out of those conditions.  I've been in 35-40 kts a couple of times, both times with the 110 Yankee up. She did great jib and jigger with the 110 furled about 20% and the mizzen at the spreader.

Don't know if that helps you at all, jus t recounting my experience.  I don't really have anything to compare it to.

Steady as she goes.

Kent
S/V Kristy
SM243