[Amel Yacht Owners] Strange Battery charging…
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Alexandre Uster von Baar <uster@...>
Good afternoon,
During the 3 days power outage in Puerto Rico, I noted my batteries were getting weak… Would not fully recharge. Accidentally, I reset the Link 10… but it kept the setting, just now showing 100% instead of the 90%. Due to the lack of wind, I mostly motor to Tortola, then drift for 6 hours to wait for customs and emigration to open, again I noted the batteries were weak (freezer compressor stop). I have now been at the marina for a month, and something very strange is happening: The first week, instead to get the usual charge of 0.2 amp/hour on the Link 10, I had 1 Amp hour. The second week, was over 2 amp/hour charge The 3rd week, I had 3 Amp/hour charge. I thought my 40 Amp battery charger could have an issue, so switch to the 60 Amp and still higher charge. Now I am showing 8 Amp/hour charge ?!? So the 100% has been reach for 3 weeks and is showing an excess of 470 Amp (above my 100%) which is not possible as my battery bank is only 400 Amp (8 batteries 100 amp each, 4 x 2 in series). I wish it could be true… Any idea? This weekend, going to go back to the smaller charger to see what it charges. Thanks in advance Sincerely, Alexandre SM2K #289 NIKIMAT Harbor View Marina, Tortola, BVI |
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Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
Alex, You need to get your batteries checked before jumping to any other conclusions. Be sure they are checked with a digital battery check instrument. My guess is that you have one or more batteries with an internal short. Be careful that you do not "cook" your battery bank...sounds like you are getting close. Open it up and touch the batteries...if any of them feel warm or hot, that is probably the problem battery...BUT...surely someone in Tortola has a digital battery checker where they will provide you a printout for each battery. Bill BeBe 387 St. John On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 8:31 PM, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Hi, Alex, I think you should stop looking at the % charge and amp-hour readings to evaluate your batteries and charging routines. I don't know why, but they are notoriously inaccurate. Use Voltage and Amperage in or out to evaluate. What is your 24V monitor showing as the battery voltage when they should be fully charged and the charger is running? It should read the float voltage you have set on the charger. When you turn off the charger and leave the fridges and other usual equipment running, what does the monitor read as -Amps being used? Is that typical for your boat? What kind of batteries do you have? How old are they? Assuming they are flooded lead acid, here's what I would do: 1. Turn off the chargers and all 24V equipment. 2. Wait 30 min to an hour, and check your battery bank voltage with the 24v monitor. Double check it with your multimeter at the battery bank and at the 24v lugs on the chargers. The voltages should all be very close readings. The -Amps on the monitor should be very low, certainly less than -1 A. 3. If you have an electronic battery tester (as recommended by Bill R in an earlier thread), isolate each battery and test it's cranking Amps. (If they are deep cycle batteries, the may not have cranking amps listed). 4. While the batteries are fully charged, check the specific gravity of the battery fluid in all cells in all batteries with a bulb type tester. If the voltage is OK, and the cranking Amps are OK, but the Specific gravity in all batteries is low, the batteries need to be desulfated (Equalization cycle on your charger). Do you regularly equalize your batteries? If only one or two batteries or cells have abnormal readings, you may have bad connections at the batteries, or failed/failing batteries. If everything looks right, you probably don't have a battery or charger problem, just looking at Ahr and %Charge readings that are not an accurate reflection of your 24V system. Let us know what you find. Kent Kent Kristy SM 243 On Dec 1, 2016, at 3:31 PM, Alexandre wrote:
Good afternoon, During the 3 days power outage in Puerto Rico, I noted my batteries were getting weak… |
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Alexandre Uster von Baar <uster@...>
Good afternoon Bill,
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7 weeks ago in San Juan, I checked the batteries (with the tester you recommended), all except for 2 were bad. I check the acidity and (to me) it look like 2 were shots… the rest ok. Unfortunately DC Battery (which you recommended and would recommend to anyone), couldn’t deliver on time (before I left San Juan). Now that that I get the emigration extension I can order the batteries from them and receive them in 3 weeks. Going to check tomorrow if one of more is warm. In the event I am cooking the batteries, is the boat at risk? Fire, etc. ? I could disconnect them and set the battery charger in power supply mode. As always thanks so much for your help!.. Always learning… Sincerely, Alexandre SM2K #289 NIKIMAT Harbor View Marina, Tortola, BVI -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 12/1/16, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Strange Battery charging… To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...> Date: Thursday, December 1, 2016, 2:58 PM Alex, You need to get your batteries checked before jumping to any other conclusions. Be sure they are checked with a digital battery check instrument. My guess is that you have one or more batteries with an internal short. Be careful that you do not "cook" your battery bank...sounds like you are getting close. Open it up and touch the batteries...if any of them feel warm or hot, that is probably the problem battery...BUT...surely someone in Tortola has a digital battery checker where they will provide you a printout for each battery. BillBeBe 387St. John On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 8:31 PM, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: Good afternoon, During the 3 days power outage in Puerto Rico, I noted my batteries were getting weak… Would not fully recharge. Accidentally, I reset the Link 10… but it kept the setting, just now showing 100% instead of the 90%. Due to the lack of wind, I mostly motor to Tortola, then drift for 6 hours to wait for customs and emigration to open, again I noted the batteries were weak (freezer compressor stop). I have now been at the marina for a month, and something very strange is happening: The first week, instead to get the usual charge of 0.2 amp/hour on the Link 10, I had 1 Amp hour. The second week, was over 2 amp/hour charge The 3rd week, I had 3 Amp/hour charge. I thought my 40 Amp battery charger could have an issue, so switch to the 60 Amp and still higher charge. Now I am showing 8 Amp/hour charge ?!? So the 100% has been reach for 3 weeks and is showing an excess of 470 Amp (above my 100%) which is not possible as my battery bank is only 400 Amp (8 batteries 100 amp each, 4 x 2 in series). I wish it could be true… Any idea? This weekend, going to go back to the smaller charger to see what it charges. Thanks in advance Sincerely, Alexandre SM2K #289 NIKIMAT Harbor View Marina, Tortola, BVI #yiv1214219771 #yiv1214219771 -- #yiv1214219771ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv1214219771 #yiv1214219771ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv1214219771 #yiv1214219771ygrp-mkp #yiv1214219771hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv1214219771 #yiv1214219771ygrp-mkp #yiv1214219771ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv1214219771 #yiv1214219771ygrp-mkp .yiv1214219771ad { padding:0 0;} #yiv1214219771 #yiv1214219771ygrp-mkp .yiv1214219771ad p { margin:0;} #yiv1214219771 #yiv1214219771ygrp-mkp .yiv1214219771ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #yiv1214219771 #yiv1214219771ygrp-sponsor #yiv1214219771ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #yiv1214219771 #yiv1214219771ygrp-sponsor #yiv1214219771ygrp-lc #yiv1214219771hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #yiv1214219771 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Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
Alex, I think I told you to check out DC Battery in Miami because they had an efficient method of delivering all over the Caribbean and you could not find GRP 31 batteries in PR. However, you are now in Tortola. I would research what is available in Tortola ans St Thomas. There is probably no doubt that you are beyond the replacement date of your batteries and your charger is cooking the batteries. Your charger is reading the internal shorts and resistance in those batteries and interpreting it as the batteries need more amps and the charger is delivering them. Since you are connected to shore power, all you need is two good 12VDC batteries connected in series = 24VVDC. And you do not need a starting battery. Use a digital tester to find 2 good batteries out of the 9 you have then connect them in series to the house bank. Use your smallest charger and ASAP find NEW batteries. Bill Rouse On Dec 1, 2016 5:27 PM, "Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Patrick McAneny
There is , or at least there was a large battery supplier in St. Thomas near the sub base. I bought batteries there about 15 years ago and they had a large inventory . I can't remember the name , ask around.
Pat SM#123 -----Original Message----- From: 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] To: amelyachtowners Sent: Thu, Dec 1, 2016 5:03 pm Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Strange Battery charging… Alex,
I think I told you to check out DC Battery in Miami because they had an efficient method of delivering all over the Caribbean and you could not find GRP 31 batteries in PR.
However, you are now in Tortola. I would research what is available in Tortola ans St Thomas.
There is probably no doubt that you are beyond the replacement date of your batteries and your charger is cooking the batteries. Your charger is reading the internal shorts and resistance in those batteries and interpreting it as the batteries need more amps and the charger is delivering them.
Since you are connected to shore power, all you need is two good 12VDC batteries connected in series = 24VVDC. And you do not need a starting battery. Use a digital tester to find 2 good batteries out of the 9 you have then connect them in series to the house bank. Use your smallest charger and ASAP find NEW batteries.
Bill Rouse
BeBe Amel 53 #387 Sent from my tablet +1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail On Dec 1, 2016 5:27 PM, "Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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James Alton
Alex,
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Bill’s suggestion sounds on target to me. The additional amperage that is being put into your dying batteries is mostly going into heat + making hydrogen, so not good. I don’t know the supply situation for batteries in your area but wanted to mention that if I were in your situation and could not quickly come up with at least two good batteries out of your old bank, I would look into buying whatever I could find locally that would fit and use those until the new batteries came in. Regular car batteries will have a short life in this application but are cheap and would give you the means to start the engine if needed plus eliminate the risk of charging batteries that should not be in the boat. Best, James Alton SV Sueno, Maramu #220 Arbatax, Italy
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Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
Hi Alex. If they are flooded lead acid batteries I'd bet they need desulphation. Typical symptoms. Seem to charge quickly with low input and then lose charge quickly
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I'm on ocean pearl doing hers right now. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl
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sailormon <kimberlite@...>
Alexandre, usually on Kimberlite a false positive number shows when we are motoring for a while. When the motor or charger is turned off the number goes to zero in a few minutes.
It is also possible that your meter does not know how many amps is needed to fully charge your bank since you reset it.
I would turn off the charging devices and run some things on the boat . If the meter goes to zero then the number was just a false positive. Fair Winds Eric Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376
From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 3:32 PM To: amelyachtowners@... Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Strange Battery charging…
Good afternoon, |
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Ann-Sofie Svanberg <kanalmamman@...>
Hi,
We have had the same type of experience and in both our cases it has been one or two of the batteries that have been compromised.
If you messure the voltage you would most likely find lower voltage and higher temperature on the failing ones.
Best regards,
Ann-Sofie and Jonas
Lady Annila SM #232
Skickat från min iPad 1 dec. 2016 kl. 20:32 skrev Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:
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Ian Park
I agree with Bill. I had a similar occurrence and a suspect battery just before leaving Mindelo (lower resting voltage than the others) No time to check it before crossing to Antigua. Rather than compromise the ones that remained I took it out (quickly and gladly taken by a local fisherman). Crossed the Atlantic with three house batteries. They charged up quicker than four batteries, but it eliminated any overcharging of the good ones.
Ian Ocean Hobo SN96 |
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Yes ....us as well...
Cheers Alan Elyse SM437 |
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Alexandre Uster von Baar <uster@...>
Good morning Kent, Bill, Patrick, James, Danny, Eric, Ann, Alan, (hope I didn’t forget anyone)
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Thanks every body for your reply. In unpleasant moments like this one, the forum feels like a family to me. This morning as I walk by the battery bank, I could feel the heat… Immediately I stop the charger, which now was showing 10 amp/hour… To reply Kent’s question, simply using fridge/freezer, the Link 10 was showing -4.7 Amp. I had to do some work, so 2 hours later that I shut down fridge and freezer and was showing -0.1 I removed and tested the batteries with the “Solar BA9” Bill recommended. 1 out of 8 shows good. Even the starting battery is showing bad… Honestly I don’t really understand what is DIN and EN, I “kind of guess” about CCA and CA which I am not sure is important for house batteries… Not sure which of these show how many Amp there is left from the original 100. 3 batteries had the message: battery not charged, recharge and retest they voltage were: 12.34V, 10.40V and 10.62V 1 Battery was simply showing 0 everywhere (CCA, CA, DIN and EN) 1 good showing 12.76V CCA: 491 (out of 600), CA: 596, DIN: 277 and EN: 462 3 bad but still able to provide a reading: CCA: 170 to 200, CA: 200 to 250, DIN: 94 to 120 and EN: 157 to 205 For now I am running the Battery Charger in “Power Supply” mode; fridge, freezer, fresh water pump seems happy so far. I have a spare starting battery, I am considering doing Bill’s recommendation: 2 in series and going back in battery charging mode, convenient in case of power failure, but I am concerned that 2 different batteries type and age (one starting and one deep cycle) might be an issue. I will ask locally for the batteries, I doubt I will find the batteries I want, so likely will order from DC Battery in Miami, Albert did a great job providing me quote including shipping. Currently my “Starting” battery is a Trojan 27 TMX, so a “Deep Cycle” battery (from 2011 I believe). I have never had an issue to start the engine nor genset. I will still replace it as the tester says bad, but I am considering replacing it with the same (new) Deep Cycle (instead of a real starting). Any opinion? Danny, I actually have pulse system for the desulphurization, my new charger have Equalization. Kent, my batteries were AutoCraft DC27-2 flooded which was the only available in Key West in Feb 2013 (the boat was being delivered to me). Since I mostly stay in Marina I was hoping they would last longer… was hoping for 5 years. For the exercise, I am going to charge (from 12 volt charger) the not so bad batteries then look at the gravity in each cell. Thanks again everybody for your help and input. Sincerely, Alexandre SM2K #289 NIKIMAT Harbor View Marina, Tortola, BVI -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 12/1/16, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Strange Battery charging… To: amelyachtowners@... Date: Thursday, December 1, 2016, 4:03 PM Alex, I think I told you to check out DC Battery in Miami because they had an efficient method of delivering all over the Caribbean and you could not find GRP 31 batteries in PR. However, you are now in Tortola. I would research what is available in Tortola ans St Thomas. There is probably no doubt that you are beyond the replacement date of your batteries and your charger is cooking the batteries. Your charger is reading the internal shorts and resistance in those batteries and interpreting it as the batteries need more amps and the charger is delivering them. Since you are connected to shore power, all you need is two good 12VDC batteries connected in series = 24VVDC. And you do not need a starting battery. Use a digital tester to find 2 good batteries out of the 9 you have then connect them in series to the house bank. Use your smallest charger and ASAP find NEW batteries. Bill Rouse BeBe Amel 53 #387 Sent from my tablet +1832-380-4970 USA Voice Mail On Dec 1, 2016 5:27 PM, "Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote: Good afternoon Bill, 7 weeks ago in San Juan, I checked the batteries (with the tester you recommended), all except for 2 were bad. I check the acidity and (to me) it look like 2 were shots… the rest ok. Unfortunately DC Battery (which you recommended and would recommend to anyone), couldn’t deliver on time (before I left San Juan). Now that that I get the emigration extension I can order the batteries from them and receive them in 3 weeks. Going to check tomorrow if one of more is warm. In the event I am cooking the batteries, is the boat at risk? Fire, etc. ? I could disconnect them and set the battery charger in power supply mode. As always thanks so much for your help!.. Always learning… Sincerely, Alexandre SM2K #289 NIKIMAT Harbor View Marina, Tortola, BVI ------------------------------ -------------- On Thu, 12/1/16, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups. com> wrote: Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Strange Battery charging… To: "amelyachtowners@yahoogroups. com" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups. com> Date: Thursday, December 1, 2016, 2:58 PM Alex, You need to get your batteries checked before jumping to any other conclusions. Be sure they are checked with a digital battery check instrument. My guess is that you have one or more batteries with an internal short. Be careful that you do not "cook" your battery bank...sounds like you are getting close. Open it up and touch the batteries...if any of them feel warm or hot, that is probably the problem battery...BUT...surely someone in Tortola has a digital battery checker where they will provide you a printout for each battery. BillBeBe 387St. John On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 8:31 PM, Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups. com> wrote: Good afternoon, During the 3 days power outage in Puerto Rico, I noted my batteries were getting weak… Would not fully recharge. Accidentally, I reset the Link 10… but it kept the setting, just now showing 100% instead of the 90%. Due to the lack of wind, I mostly motor to Tortola, then drift for 6 hours to wait for customs and emigration to open, again I noted the batteries were weak (freezer compressor stop). I have now been at the marina for a month, and something very strange is happening: The first week, instead to get the usual charge of 0.2 amp/hour on the Link 10, I had 1 Amp hour. The second week, was over 2 amp/hour charge The 3rd week, I had 3 Amp/hour charge. I thought my 40 Amp battery charger could have an issue, so switch to the 60 Amp and still higher charge. Now I am showing 8 Amp/hour charge ?!? So the 100% has been reach for 3 weeks and is showing an excess of 470 Amp (above my 100%) which is not possible as my battery bank is only 400 Amp (8 batteries 100 amp each, 4 x 2 in series). I wish it could be true… Any idea? This weekend, going to go back to the smaller charger to see what it charges. Thanks in advance Sincerely, Alexandre SM2K #289 NIKIMAT Harbor View Marina, Tortola, BVI |
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Hi Alex. Sorry about the bad news. What batteries are you going to buy? Kristy is SM243 and has the smaller battery compartment with room for 9-Group27 batteries. These typically are 90 AH batteries (which I think yours are) so an 8 battery house bank would yield 360 Ah at 24V. Do you have the larger size compartment that allows for 2 more batteries? I would like to increase my total AmpHour capacity, And stay with flooded lead acid batteries. I know others have used 6-V batteries and other solutions to this problem, but don't know if they have the larger battery compartment, whether they are using gel or AGM batteries, or how they arrange them in the battery compartment. I see Bebe's pics show 4 thinner batteries along the inboard side of the compartment. Bill, what size batteries are you using, and are the charging characteristics the same for both sizes? Any issues with charging two different size batteries? Do you have the larger sized compartment? Anyone else with a different solution to increasing the amphours in the smaller battery compartment? Can you post some specs and pics of the batteries and how you arranged them? Thanks in advance. Kent SM243 Kristy Currently Shelter Bay near Colon, Panama |
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amelliahona <no_reply@...>
Hi Alexandre:
I don't recall the Serial Number of you boat, but mine (SN 335) accepts 8 , group 31 batteries for the house bank. I am in Puerto Rico and just purchased 8 Trojan SCS225 deep cycle flooded lead acid batteries from Battery Giant (a USA national chain) for $237 each (I ordered them and they took about 2.5 weeks to arrive, I picked them up in San Juan (actually Guaynabo which is part of the San Juan megaplex) with a rental car. I have used Battery Giant twice for various battery needs and they treated me fairly both times. They were very solicitous. I worked with Javier, phone 787-272-0533. I can recommend them. This is the second set of Trojan SCS225s I have purchased (last set bought in Antigua and cost $125 more each because they were further down island). When you buy a set of batteries look at the serial numbers on the batteries to see if you get a fairly consistent run of numbers to exclude the potential for getting some older ones mixed with newer ones as they sat in stock at the vendor. I echo the idea that one bad battery can bring down an entire bank. As I monitor my bank I try to follow the specifics of the battery manufacturer faithfully (in my case Trojans). I do the following: 1. I use a digital volt meter to check the voltage of each battery about once a week when I am aboard. Testing conditions: I fully charge the bank, then turn off all current draws, wait 30 minutes to an hour then check each battery (not each pair). This does not require disconnecting each pair, just measure from positive to negative across each individual battery. I log this data in a spreadsheet to spot trends. Takes me about 10 minutes. 2. I check the battery water level each week when aboard and have the caretaker check it monthly when not aboard. Top up the level ONLY when the batteries are fully charged. Use only distilled water (NOT PURIFIED WATER). You don't want minerals in the water. Takes me about 20 minutes and I am surprised at how much water they use in the hot Caribbean. 3. I measure the specific gravity of each cell using a hydrometer (6 cells X 8 batteries = 48 cells) once a month. I do this at the same time I check the battery voltages and under the same testing conditions. Log that data to spot trends. A single failing cell can bring down the whole bank. Takes me about 1 hour. 4. I load test any suspect battery with the load tester that Bill Rouse recommended. 5. Make sure you have a digital thermometer in you battery box, one that has a probe with a programable alarm capability. A single bad cell can cause an overcharging condition that will boil your entire bank (been there twice in my 15 years of owning Liahona). Takes hours to remove and clean up the batteries and the battery box from the spilled electrolyte not to mention the harm done to the batteries. 5. I never leave the boat plugged in to shore power with a charger on if I am going to be absent from the boat for more than a couple of hours. I just don't want to burn down my boat from an overcharging scenario. 6. Equalize your batteries if you have the capability to do so. Follow the manufacturers directions and be very very careful as you do so to make sure the bank is disconnected from all loads and carefully monitor the process. I wish you the best, Gary S. Silver s/v Liahona Amel #335 Currently in Puerto Del Rey Marina Puerto Rico I |
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Alexandre Uster von Baar <uster@...>
Hello Kent,
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Compare to the news you had this is nothing… After the 3 days power outage in Puerto Rico, I had a good idea the batteries needed to be changed, was just not enough margin for shipping. Yes we have the same battery compartment (8 +1). I am interested in the Trojan 27TMH rated at 115 AH (20-hour) I doubt I will find them locally in Tortola, so will have them shipped. I should probably rename this thread: would appreciate some input. Let’s take 2 batteries: the Deka (Group 31) DC32DT rated 105 AH and the Trojan (Group 27) 27 TMH rated at 115 AH - actually in my example I should pick the Trojan TMX (Group 27) also rated 105 AH like the Deka. Is there a difference? Will the group 31 for any reason last longer or perform better? I was always told the heavier was the better the Deka weight 60 lbs and the Trojan 55 lbs so I could understand the Deka having an advantage, but in that case back to the Trojan (Group 27) 27 TMH which has more AH: 115 and also weight more: 61 lbs. I am missing something in my analogy? Back to your question Kent, I wouldn’t mind going with AGM batteries, but as it was mentioned many times on the forum, the 24 volt alternator on the engine is set for flooded type batteries, and I doubt they are adjustable. Please tell me if I am wrong! For now I am staying at anchor, but something else I have been thinking is instead to try to increase the AH, try to decrease the consumption. One way is to have the freezer insulation improved, like using an R50 or something more efficient than what we have. Thanks in advance for feedback on the battery difference question. Sincerely, Alexandre SM2K #289 NIKIMAT Harbor View Marina, Tortola, BVI -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 12/2/16, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Strange Battery charging… To: amelyachtowners@... Date: Friday, December 2, 2016, 1:03 PM Hi Alex. Sorry about the bad news. What batteries are you going to buy?Kristy is SM243 and has the smaller battery compartment with room for 9-Group27 batteries. These typically are 90 AH batteries (which I think yours are) so an 8 battery house bank would yield 360 Ah at 24V.Do you have the larger size compartment that allows for 2 more batteries? I would like to increase my total AmpHour capacity, And stay with flooded lead acid batteries. I know others have used 6-V batteries and other solutions to this problem, but don't know if they have the larger battery compartment, whether they are using gel or AGM batteries, or how they arrange them in the battery compartment. I see Bebe's pics show 4 thinner batteries along the inboard side of the compartment. Bill, what size batteries are you using, and are the charging characteristics the same for both sizes? Any issues with charging two different size batteries? Do you have the larger sized compartment? Anyone else with a different solution to increasing the amphours in the smaller battery compartment? Can you post some specs and pics of the batteries and how you arranged them? Thanks in advance.KentSM243KristyCurrently Shelter Bay near Colon, Panama #yiv3967751209 #yiv3967751209 -- #yiv3967751209ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv3967751209 #yiv3967751209ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv3967751209 #yiv3967751209ygrp-mkp #yiv3967751209hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv3967751209 #yiv3967751209ygrp-mkp #yiv3967751209ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv3967751209 #yiv3967751209ygrp-mkp .yiv3967751209ad { padding:0 0;} #yiv3967751209 #yiv3967751209ygrp-mkp .yiv3967751209ad p { margin:0;} #yiv3967751209 #yiv3967751209ygrp-mkp .yiv3967751209ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #yiv3967751209 #yiv3967751209ygrp-sponsor #yiv3967751209ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #yiv3967751209 #yiv3967751209ygrp-sponsor #yiv3967751209ygrp-lc #yiv3967751209hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #yiv3967751209 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Alexandre Uster von Baar <uster@...>
Good afternoon Gary,
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Always a pleasure to read you! Mine is 289, so older than yours. I just look at the specs of the Trojan SCS225 http://www.trojanbattery.com/products/SCS22512V.aspx I don’t think my battery compartment will be able to hold them. http://nikimat.com/battery_compartment_space.html I am limited to 9” height a little more around the wood. I will contact Javier and compare the price with DC batteries (recommended by Bill). Great idea to look at the serial number! So when you check the batteries, you don’t need to disconnect them? That would definitely save me lots of time… I bought distilled water when I was in San Juan just for that purpose. I don’t use the hydrometer once a month… I need to force myself. I will add the digital thermometer on my list… I just spent a few hours cleaning the spilled electrolyte… Somehow I thought my battery charger was doing equalizing automatically, but I must have mistake with something to prevent the sulphurization… (spelling?) I will slowly read about that. Thanks again for your always detailed explanations and instructions. Hope to meet you in the coming weeks! Sincerely, Alexandre SM2K #289 NIKIMAT Harbor View Marina, Tortola, BVI -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 12/2/16, amelliahona <no_reply@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Strange Battery charging… To: amelyachtowners@... Date: Friday, December 2, 2016, 1:50 PM Hi Alexandre: I don't recall the Serial Number of you boat, but mine (SN 335) accepts 8 , group 31 batteries for the house bank. I am in Puerto Rico and just purchased 8 Trojan SCS225 deep cycle flooded lead acid batteries from Battery Giant (a USA national chain) for $237 each (I ordered them and they took about 2.5 weeks to arrive, I picked them up in San Juan (actually Guaynabo which is part of the San Juan megaplex) with a rental car. I have used Battery Giant twice for various battery needs and they treated me fairly both times. They were very solicitous. I worked with Javier, phone 787-272-0533. I can recommend them. This is the second set of Trojan SCS225s I have purchased (last set bought in Antigua and cost $125 more each because they were further down island). When you buy a set of batteries look at the serial numbers on the batteries to see if you get a fairly consistent run of numbers to exclude the potential for getting some older ones mixed with newer ones as they sat in stock at the vendor. I echo the idea that one bad battery can bring down an entire bank. As I monitor my bank I try to follow the specifics of the battery manufacturer faithfully (in my case Trojans). I do the following: 1. I use a digital volt meter to check the voltage of each battery about once a week when I am aboard. Testing conditions: I fully charge the bank, then turn off all current draws, wait 30 minutes to an hour then check each battery (not each pair). This does not require disconnecting each pair, just measure from positive to negative across each individual battery. I log this data in a spreadsheet to spot trends. Takes me about 10 minutes.2. I check the battery water level each week when aboard and have the caretaker check it monthly when not aboard. Top up the level ONLY when the batteries are fully charged. Use only distilled water (NOT PURIFIED WATER). You don't want minerals in the water. Takes me about 20 minutes and I am surprised at how much water they use in the hot Caribbean.3. I measure the specific gravity of each cell using a hydrometer (6 cells X 8 batteries = 48 cells) once a month. I do this at the same time I check the battery voltages and under the same testing conditions. Log that data to spot trends. A single failing cell can bring down the whole bank. Takes me about 1 hour.4. I load test any suspect battery with the load tester that Bill Rouse recommended.5. Make sure you have a digital thermometer in you battery box, one that has a probe with a programable alarm capability. A single bad cell can cause an overcharging condition that will boil your entire bank (been there twice in my 15 years of owning Liahona). Takes hours to remove and clean up the batteries and the battery box from the spilled electrolyte not to mention the harm done to the batteries.5. I never leave the boat plugged in to shore power with a charger on if I am going to be absent from the boat for more than a couple of hours. I just don't want to burn down my boat from an overcharging scenario.6. Equalize your batteries if you have the capability to do so. Follow the manufacturers directions and be very very careful as you do so to make sure the bank is disconnected from all loads and carefully monitor the process. I wish you the best, Gary S. Silver s/v Liahona Amel #335 Currently in Puerto Del Rey Marina Puerto RicoI #yiv2436168569 #yiv2436168569 -- #yiv2436168569ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv2436168569 #yiv2436168569ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv2436168569 #yiv2436168569ygrp-mkp #yiv2436168569hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv2436168569 #yiv2436168569ygrp-mkp #yiv2436168569ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv2436168569 #yiv2436168569ygrp-mkp .yiv2436168569ad { padding:0 0;} #yiv2436168569 #yiv2436168569ygrp-mkp .yiv2436168569ad p { margin:0;} #yiv2436168569 #yiv2436168569ygrp-mkp .yiv2436168569ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #yiv2436168569 #yiv2436168569ygrp-sponsor #yiv2436168569ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #yiv2436168569 #yiv2436168569ygrp-sponsor #yiv2436168569ygrp-lc #yiv2436168569hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #yiv2436168569 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Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
Hi Gary, The detail you go to in caring for your batteries intimidates me. I bought our 12, 6 volt wet cell lead acid batteries from West marine in Newport Rhode Island in July 2009. I top the water up from our water tank as needed (the only water that goes into our tank comes from the water maker) and if they begin to not hold charge I desulphate. I believe on a logical thought process (I think it is logical anyway) that individual batteries may sulphate at different rates so the performance for each battery would be affected differently. So I would think that detailed individual testing may give misleading results unless the bank had recently been desulphated. I had got to the point of thinking I needed to replace them and then I found how to desulphate. Sulphates build up on the plates and reduce the ability for the charge to get to the plates. The more sulphates the less charge gets through. What happens is the batteries seem to charge more quickly but then discharge rapidly. The higher the rate of amp input the worse the effect as the charger senses the batteries are full and cuts out. A lower rate of charge trickles through the sulphate coating and results in a fuller genuine charge. Imagine pumping water through a fine filter with a pump with a pressure cut out. A high flow pump would build up pressure quickly and cut out. A lower flow pump would keep going. But, best solution, remove the filter ie desulphate. I also confess to at times over discharging (too often) but here we are 8 years down the track and still going. (now I've said that they'll fail tomorrow) I believe the solar panels and the wind generator are critical components the battery longevity. All the time it is on the mooring the batteries are kept to optimum levels, we leave one fridge on and there is a dump load system for the wind generator. If its cloudy and windy the generator does it. If its sunny and still, the panels. If its sunny AND windy; wow. Cheers Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl Mangonui New Zealand From: amelliahona To: amelyachtowners@... Sent: Saturday, 3 December 2016 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Strange Battery charging… Hi Alexandre: I don't recall the Serial Number of you boat, but mine (SN 335) accepts 8 , group 31 batteries for the house bank. I am in Puerto Rico and just purchased 8 Trojan SCS225 deep cycle flooded lead acid batteries from Battery Giant (a USA national chain) for $237 each (I ordered them and they took about 2.5 weeks to arrive, I picked them up in San Juan (actually Guaynabo which is part of the San Juan megaplex) with a rental car. I have used Battery Giant twice for various battery needs and they treated me fairly both times. They were very solicitous. I worked with Javier, phone 787-272-0533. I can recommend them. This is the second set of Trojan SCS225s I have purchased (last set bought in Antigua and cost $125 more each because they were further down island). When you buy a set of batteries look at the serial numbers on the batteries to see if you get a fairly consistent run of numbers to exclude the potential for getting some older ones mixed with newer ones as they sat in stock at the vendor. I echo the idea that one bad battery can bring down an entire bank. As I monitor my bank I try to follow the specifics of the battery manufacturer faithfully (in my case Trojans). I do the following: 1. I use a digital volt meter to check the voltage of each battery about once a week when I am aboard. Testing conditions: I fully charge the bank, then turn off all current draws, wait 30 minutes to an hour then check each battery (not each pair). This does not require disconnecting each pair, just measure from positive to negative across each individual battery. I log this data in a spreadsheet to spot trends. Takes me about 10 minutes. 2. I check the battery water level each week when aboard and have the caretaker check it monthly when not aboard. Top up the level ONLY when the batteries are fully charged. Use only distilled water (NOT PURIFIED WATER). You don't want minerals in the water. Takes me about 20 minutes and I am surprised at how much water they use in the hot Caribbean. 3. I measure the specific gravity of each cell using a hydrometer (6 cells X 8 batteries = 48 cells) once a month. I do this at the same time I check the battery voltages and under the same testing conditions. Log that data to spot trends. A single failing cell can bring down the whole bank. Takes me about 1 hour. 4. I load test any suspect battery with the load tester that Bill Rouse recommended. 5. Make sure you have a digital thermometer in you battery box, one that has a probe with a programable alarm capability. A single bad cell can cause an overcharging condition that will boil your entire bank (been there twice in my 15 years of owning Liahona). Takes hours to remove and clean up the batteries and the battery box from the spilled electrolyte not to mention the harm done to the batteries. 5. I never leave the boat plugged in to shore power with a charger on if I am going to be absent from the boat for more than a couple of hours. I just don't want to burn down my boat from an overcharging scenario. 6. Equalize your batteries if you have the capability to do so. Follow the manufacturers directions and be very very careful as you do so to make sure the bank is disconnected from all loads and carefully monitor the process. I wish you the best, Gary S. Silver s/v Liahona Amel #335 Currently in Puerto Del Rey Marina Puerto Rico I
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Alexandre Uster von Baar <uster@...>
Hello Danny,
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Desulphalisation is the word I was looking for! I put a “Pulse” system 3 years ago, it is 24 volt so connected on 2 batteries at the time, not sure it was useful… How do you desulphalise? Sincerely, Alexandre SM2K #289 NIKIMAT Harbor View Marina, Tortola, BVI -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 12/2/16, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Strange Battery charging… To: "amelyachtowners@..." <amelyachtowners@...> Date: Friday, December 2, 2016, 2:46 PM Hi Gary,The detail you go to in caring for your batteries intimidates me. I bought our 12, 6 volt wet cell lead acid batteries from West marine in Newport Rhode Island in July 2009. I top the water up from our water tank as needed (the only water that goes into our tank comes from the water maker) and if they begin to not hold charge I desulphate. I believe on a logical thought process (I think it is logical anyway) that individual batteries may sulphate at different rates so the performance for each battery would be affected differently. So I would think that detailed individual testing may give misleading results unless the bank had recently been desulphated. I had got to the point of thinking I needed to replace them and then I found how to desulphate.Sulphates build up on the plates and reduce the ability for the charge to get to the plates. The more sulphates the less charge gets through. What happens is the batteries seem to charge more quickly but then discharge rapidly. The higher the rate of amp input the worse the effect as the charger senses the batteries are full and cuts out. A lower rate of charge trickles through the sulphate coating and results in a fuller genuine charge. Imagine pumping water through a fine filter with a pump with a pressure cut out. A high flow pump would build up pressure quickly and cut out. A lower flow pump would keep going. But, best solution, remove the filter ie desulphate.I also confess to at times over discharging (too often) but here we are 8 years down the track and still going. (now I've said that they'll fail tomorrow) I believe the solar panels and the wind generator are critical components the battery longevity. All the time it is on the mooring the batteries are kept to optimum levels, we leave one fridge on and there is a dump load system for the wind generator. If its cloudy and windy the generator does it. If its sunny and still, the panels. If its sunny AND windy; wow.CheersDannySM 299 Ocean PearlMangonuiNew Zealand From: amelliahona <no_reply@...> To: amelyachtowners@... Sent: Saturday, 3 December 2016 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Strange Battery charging… Hi Alexandre: I don't recall the Serial Number of you boat, but mine (SN 335) accepts 8 , group 31 batteries for the house bank. I am in Puerto Rico and just purchased 8 Trojan SCS225 deep cycle flooded lead acid batteries from Battery Giant (a USA national chain) for $237 each (I ordered them and they took about 2.5 weeks to arrive, I picked them up in San Juan (actually Guaynabo which is part of the San Juan megaplex) with a rental car. I have used Battery Giant twice for various battery needs and they treated me fairly both times. They were very solicitous. I worked with Javier, phone 787-272-0533. I can recommend them. This is the second set of Trojan SCS225s I have purchased (last set bought in Antigua and cost $125 more each because they were further down island). When you buy a set of batteries look at the serial numbers on the batteries to see if you get a fairly consistent run of numbers to exclude the potential for getting some older ones mixed with newer ones as they sat in stock at the vendor. I echo the idea that one bad battery can bring down an entire bank. As I monitor my bank I try to follow the specifics of the battery manufacturer faithfully (in my case Trojans). I do the following: 1. I use a digital volt meter to check the voltage of each battery about once a week when I am aboard. Testing conditions: I fully charge the bank, then turn off all current draws, wait 30 minutes to an hour then check each battery (not each pair). This does not require disconnecting each pair, just measure from positive to negative across each individual battery. I log this data in a spreadsheet to spot trends. Takes me about 10 minutes.2. I check the battery water level each week when aboard and have the caretaker check it monthly when not aboard. Top up the level ONLY when the batteries are fully charged. Use only distilled water (NOT PURIFIED WATER). You don't want minerals in the water. Takes me about 20 minutes and I am surprised at how much water they use in the hot Caribbean.3. I measure the specific gravity of each cell using a hydrometer (6 cells X 8 batteries = 48 cells) once a month. I do this at the same time I check the battery voltages and under the same testing conditions. Log that data to spot trends. A single failing cell can bring down the whole bank. Takes me about 1 hour.4. I load test any suspect battery with the load tester that Bill Rouse recommended.5. Make sure you have a digital thermometer in you battery box, one that has a probe with a programable alarm capability. A single bad cell can cause an overcharging condition that will boil your entire bank (been there twice in my 15 years of owning Liahona). Takes hours to remove and clean up the batteries and the battery box from the spilled electrolyte not to mention the harm done to the batteries.5. I never leave the boat plugged in to shore power with a charger on if I am going to be absent from the boat for more than a couple of hours. I just don't want to burn down my boat from an overcharging scenario.6. Equalize your batteries if you have the capability to do so. Follow the manufacturers directions and be very very careful as you do so to make sure the bank is disconnected from all loads and carefully monitor the process. I wish you the best, Gary S. Silver s/v Liahona Amel #335 Currently in Puerto Del Rey Marina Puerto RicoI |
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Hi Danny, So you're one of the folks with the 6-volt battery solution. How many amp hours is your bank? Do you have the 8+1 battery compartment? What batteries are they? Do you have any pics of the arrangement in the compartment? I guess I'm going to have to add an arch with solar +/- wind. Makes a lot of sense if I can justify the initial outlay. Thanks Kent SM243 Kristy |
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