Porter,

 

The good news it is definitely not the turbo charger. When the turbo charger goes out you will lack RPM and put out a huge cloud of black smoke with a warm engine (ask me how I know this).

 

A lot of diesels will puff a little black smoke at start. It is an indication of fuel not being burned. It can be due to any number of things such as air in the fuel line or poor fuel quality. When was the last time the fuel filters were changed? (note I said “filters” with an S). Most likely your issue, if you have an issue, is fuel related.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currenlty cruising – Cambridge Cay- Exuma Islands, Bahamas

www.creampuff.us

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:16 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Smoking Gun...

 

 

Good Sunday morning you Oracles!

Just took Nigel Calder’s Diesel class.  Fascinating.  
I think humans are less complex!

Anyway quick question.  We are in the process of working through buying what seems like a great 2010 54.  

But…  did notice a big puff of black smoke on cold start up while visiting the boat.  Lasted 5 seconds then cleared up.. Owner said no problem.  Nigel disagreed.  He said on a common-rail like the Volvo D3-110 it indicates something serious.  "Always.”

Warm starts seem ok.  The remainder of the trip no smoke. I am sorry that I haven’t spent enough time in the engine room yet to have more details.  

Clearly it's a mixture issue, possible turbo?  

Any thoughts?  I am going down with Dave Huffman in a few weeks.

Always so very appreciated.

Porter

 

On Feb 19, 2017, at 2:29 PM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Porter,  

I hope that you do not mind receiving comments that do dot definitively solve your issue. Here are some of my thoughts:

I think Nigel Calder know something about a lot of things, and I sometimes disagree with him, especially when he uses generalizations and absolutes.

As Mark said, black smoke is an indication of unburnt diesel. The Volvo D3-110 computer and sensors appear to me to be one of the most misunderstood and most criticized systems in the marine business. It is extremely difficult to find a Volvo certified mechanic that completely understands the computer logic, controls and the sensors. Most of them repair these engines using the "bingo method" of repair which is they start replacing parts until they eventually "bingo." 

Someone needs to fully understand the Volvo system to find the answer. I certainly do not and I do not intend to learn it.

That said, I am betting that the Volvo D3-110 computer primes during the beginning of the start cycle and that this increase of diesel at startup may be normal to a limit, but I do not know the limit, not do I know what controls the limit and if it is adjustable. I believe that once the engine has started the Volvo sensors and computer work together to ensure that the engine is not over-fueled...this eliminates the cause of the black smoke you see at starting.

You state that Calder said, "...it indicates something serious...always.” This is the type of absolute statement that really bothers me about him, because it tells you nothing...what is "serious?" My serious and your serious may be two completely different things. And, "...always" is not possible in the marine business except that things are "always" unpredictable. I know a lot of people like Calder, and he knows a lot more than me, but it is things like this that are very troubling to me, but not "always."

Best,

Bill

X-BeBe

Galveston, Texas

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:40 PM, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>wrote:

 

That's comforting. To say the least!  
I'll be sure to check. 

Many thanks Mark

On Feb 19, 2017, at 12:03 PM, 'Mark Erdos' mcerdos@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Porter,

 

The good news it is definitely not the turbo charger. When the turbo charger goes out you will lack RPM and put out a huge cloud of black smoke with a warm engine (ask me how I know this).

 

A lot of diesels will puff a little black smoke at start. It is an indication of fuel not being burned. It can be due to any number of things such as air in the fuel line or poor fuel quality. When was the last time the fuel filters were changed? (note I said “filters” with an S). Most likely your issue, if you have an issue, is fuel related.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currenlty cruising – Cambridge Cay- Exuma Islands, Bahamas

www.creampuff.us

 

From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:16 AM
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Smoking Gun...

 

  

Good Sunday morning you Oracles!

Just took Nigel Calder’s Diesel class.  Fascinating.  
I think humans are less complex!

Anyway quick question.  We are in the process of working through buying what seems like a great 2010 54.  

But…  did notice a big puff of black smoke on cold start up while visiting the boat.  Lasted 5 seconds then cleared up.. Owner said no problem.  Nigel disagreed.  He said on a common-rail like the Volvo D3-110 it indicates something serious.  "Always.”

Warm starts seem ok.  The remainder of the trip no smoke. I am sorry that I haven’t spent enough time in the engine room yet to have more details.  

Clearly it's a mixture issue, possible turbo?  

Any thoughts?  I am going down with Dave Huffman in a few weeks.

Always so very appreciated.

Porter

 

 

Porter,

 

The good news it is definitely not the turbo charger. When the turbo charger goes out you will lack RPM and put out a huge cloud of black smoke with a warm engine (ask me how I know this).

 

A lot of diesels will puff a little black smoke at start. It is an indication of fuel not being burned. It can be due to any number of things such as air in the fuel line or poor fuel quality. When was the last time the fuel filters were changed? (note I said “filters” with an S). Most likely your issue, if you have an issue, is fuel related.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currenlty cruising – Cambridge Cay- Exuma Islands, Bahamas

www.creampuff.us

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:16 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Smoking Gun...

 

 

Good Sunday morning you Oracles!

Just took Nigel Calder’s Diesel class.  Fascinating.  
I think humans are less complex!

Anyway quick question.  We are in the process of working through buying what seems like a great 2010 54.  

But…  did notice a big puff of black smoke on cold start up while visiting the boat.  Lasted 5 seconds then cleared up.. Owner said no problem.  Nigel disagreed.  He said on a common-rail like the Volvo D3-110 it indicates something serious.  "Always.”

Warm starts seem ok.  The remainder of the trip no smoke. I am sorry that I haven’t spent enough time in the engine room yet to have more details.  

Clearly it's a mixture issue, possible turbo?  

Any thoughts?  I am going down with Dave Huffman in a few weeks.

Always so very appreciated.

Porter

 

 

Hi Mark,
Agreed. I took Dave's concerns not as a diagnosis of cause but just noting an irregularity. Since then I have run both engines many times and not seen a repeat of the survey puff and sheen...so I think I am ok. Porter will need to look at the recent run time history of the boat to see if this is just an artifact of an unused vessel that will go away with more frequent activity.

Oh, and Mark, thank you for reccomending Dave. He was great.

Regards, John
Vent de Soleil SM37
Le Marin

 

Porter,

I am by no means an expert, but putting a combination of 30,000 some odd hours turning a combination of a Detroit 671, a cummins qsl 9 (electronic motor), and a cat 3406 aboard my various draggers, along with a 80hp ford lehman aboard my oyster barge, not counting Spirit with it's Volvo 110 d3, I've seen my share of black smoke.

Diesels are meant to be run, and run hard.

Best advise, run your boat like you're stealing it 15 minutes every day.

I normally see a puff of black smoke whenever I start up my dragger , especially in colder weather. Can't say I've seen it happen when I start up the Volvo aboard Spirit.

As a side note:

I had a Volvo guy aboard Spirit while in Charleston back in January, due to an electrical issue with the motor. He explained to me that the first production of the 110 d3 is somewhat of a mystery to many Volvo technicians. The motor is a bit of a hermaphrodite(sp?). The service manager himself came aboard to work on the motor. He located the short.

Good Luck!

Jeff Spirit Amel 54 #14

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 08:15 PM, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:

 

I should have added to the initial post. The day of the "puff" was in the middle of a multi month long sail for the owner. Just first start of that day.  The engine had been run every day for months. 

Speaking c JP he confirms a quite knowledgeable Volvo diesel mechanic runs a Volvo aftermarket shop in the marina in la Marin in Martinique 

I would imagine he'd have good insight. 

Thanks again. 

Porter

On Feb 19, 2017, at 5:05 PM, biohead@... [amelyachtowne rs] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Mark,
Agreed. I took Dave's concerns not as a diagnosis of cause but just noting an irregularity. Since then I have run both engines many times and not seen a repeat of the survey puff and sheen...so I think I am ok. Porter will need to look at the recent run time history of the boat to see if this is just an artifact of an unused vessel that will go away with more frequent activity.

Oh, and Mark, thank you for reccomending Dave. He was great.

Regards, John
Vent de Soleil SM37
Le Marin

 

To all and specially to the new Amel Owners

Do not what Jeff Spirt is telling us. Absolutly nonsens. Keep your engine in moderate motoring conditions. Not motoring days with full speed. Advice; independent which engine; after lets say 10 hours of motoring or more( 1800-2200 rmp) ,I incease the rmp to 2600-2800 ( my engine) for about 5-10 min. This is to avoide the turbo will stoke sometimes with carbon dust.   My engine is 27 years old, 3200 h, Perkins T80.

Also I do not understand that you have not excellent Volvo mecanicans in the East Cost of US. Volvo is one of the leaders in marine engines and not only with cars. ( I 'm not Swedish, I'm Swiss 😉)

Keep loving sailing

Hanspeter

SM Owner with the same boat since 1995

SM16

Tamango 2

Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 20.02.2017 um 15:43 schrieb JEFFREY KRAUS jmkraus@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Porter,

I am by no means an expert, but putting a combination of 30,000 some odd hours turning a combination of a Detroit 671, a cummins qsl 9 (electronic motor), and a cat 3406 aboard my various draggers, along with a 80hp ford lehman aboard my oyster barge, not counting Spirit with it's Volvo 110 d3, I've seen my share of black smoke.

Diesels are meant to be run, and run hard.

Best advise, run your boat like you're stealing it 15 minutes every day.

I normally see a puff of black smoke whenever I start up my dragger , especially in colder weather. Can't say I've seen it happen when I start up the Volvo aboard Spirit.

As a side note:

I had a Volvo guy aboard Spirit while in Charleston back in January, due to an electrical issue with the motor. He explained to me that the first production of the 110 d3 is somewhat of a mystery to many Volvo technicians. The motor is a bit of a hermaphrodite(sp?). The service manager himself came aboard to work on the motor. He located the short.

Good Luck!

Jeff Spirit Amel 54 #14

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 08:15 PM, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:

 

I should have added to the initial post. The day of the "puff" was in the middle of a multi month long sail for the owner. Just first start of that day.  The engine had been run every day for months. 

Speaking c JP he confirms a quite knowledgeable Volvo diesel mechanic runs a Volvo aftermarket shop in the marina in la Marin in Martinique 

I would imagine he'd have good insight. 

Thanks again. 

Porter

On Feb 19, 2017, at 5:05 PM, biohead@... [amelyachtowne rs] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Mark,
Agreed. I took Dave's concerns not as a diagnosis of cause but just noting an irregularity. Since then I have run both engines many times and not seen a repeat of the survey puff and sheen...so I think I am ok. Porter will need to look at the recent run time history of the boat to see if this is just an artifact of an unused vessel that will go away with more frequent activity.

Oh, and Mark, thank you for reccomending Dave. He was great.

Regards, John
Vent de Soleil SM37
Le Marin

 

Bill,

Your explanation of the d3 110 was exactly what the service manager explained. As a result of the inability to identify faults, often the problems encountered by d3 owners can be a trial and error path that can lead to major expenses, frustrations, and ultimately, a lack of confidence in your propulsion system. Not good.

The service rep came down HIMSELF, as a curtisy (sp) to me, knowing that the d3 was a difficult animal to tame after shooting the crap for an hour about various diesel related bullcrap. He was aboard for 3 hours. The tech was there 3 times over 3 days and left scratching his head.

Only trying to make a point here.

Thanks for your input. You are a very intelligent and helpful man, and I appreciate  that input!


On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 04:27 PM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:

 

Hanspeter,

I agree with your advice regarding RPM...and, if age had anything to do with participating in this forum, I would have to quit.

The issue with Volvo mechanics completely understanding the newer D3-110 is a common issue worldwide. Even the Volvo test equipment will not identify system faults in some cases. From what I know about this issue, it seems as though the initial programming of the onboard engine control computer has issues, but more than that, with the introduction of this engine Volvo mechanics had to move from being diesel engine mechanics in a completely analog and mechanical world to being diesel mechanics with an engine controled by software in an onboard computer connected to sensors and also connected electronically to mechanical valves and gates controlling fuel, air, timing, etc. It is very understandable that some owners of the D3-110 give up and replace the engine.

From what I hear, this is improving, and newer model Volvos have not had all of the same problems. If I had to decide between the rebuilding of an older pre-computer controled diesel engine or buying a new computer controled engine, I would pay more to rebuild than the cost of new.

Also, not all D3-110 owners have suffered the "unsolved mysteries" that this engine has presented to others.

I hope this clears things up.

Best,

Bill

Ex-BeBe

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 3:03 PM, 'Hanspeter.baettig' hanspeter.baettig@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

To all and specially to the new Amel Owners

Do not what Jeff Spirt is telling us. Absolutly nonsens. Keep your engine in moderate motoring conditions. Not motoring days with full speed. Advice; independent which engine; after lets say 10 hours of motoring or more( 1800-2200 rmp) ,I incease the rmp to 2600-2800 ( my engine) for about 5-10 min. This is to avoide the turbo will stoke sometimes with carbon dust.   My engine is 27 years old, 3200 h, Perkins T80.

Also I do not understand that you have not excellent Volvo mecanicans in the East Cost of US. Volvo is one of the leaders in marine engines and not only with cars. ( I 'm not Swedish, I'm Swiss )

Keep loving sailing

Hanspeter

SM Owner with the same boat since 1995

SM16

Tamango 2

Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 20.02.2017 um 15:43 schrieb JEFFREY KRAUS jmkraus@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups. com>:

 

Porter,

I am by no means an expert, but putting a combination of 30,000 some odd hours turning a combination of a Detroit 671, a cummins qsl 9 (electronic motor), and a cat 3406 aboard my various draggers, along with a 80hp ford lehman aboard my oyster barge, not counting Spirit with it's Volvo 110 d3, I've seen my share of black smoke.

Diesels are meant to be run, and run hard.

Best advise, run your boat like you're stealing it 15 minutes every day.

I normally see a puff of black smoke whenever I start up my dragger , especially in colder weather. Can't say I've seen it happen when I start up the Volvo aboard Spirit.

As a side note:

I had a Volvo guy aboard Spirit while in Charleston back in January, due to an electrical issue with the motor. He explained to me that the first production of the 110 d3 is somewhat of a mystery to many Volvo technicians. The motor is a bit of a hermaphrodite(sp?). The service manager himself came aboard to work on the motor. He located the short.

Good Luck!

Jeff Spirit Amel 54 #14

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 08:15 PM, Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:

 

I should have added to the initial post. The day of the "puff" was in the middle of a multi month long sail for the owner. Just first start of that day.  The engine had been run every day for months. 

Speaking c JP he confirms a quite knowledgeable Volvo diesel mechanic runs a Volvo aftermarket shop in the marina in la Marin in Martinique 

I would imagine he'd have good insight. 

Thanks again. 

Porter

On Feb 19, 2017, at 5:05 PM, biohead@... [amelyachtowne rs] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups. com> wrote:

 

Hi Mark,
Agreed. I took Dave's concerns not as a diagnosis of cause but just noting an irregularity. Since then I have run both engines many times and not seen a repeat of the survey puff and sheen...so I think I am ok. Porter will need to look at the recent run time history of the boat to see if this is just an artifact of an unused vessel that will go away with more frequent activity.

Oh, and Mark, thank you for reccomending Dave. He was great.

Regards, John
Vent de Soleil SM37
Le Marin