[Amel Yacht Owners] Alternative for not working Sonic Speed sensors


Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Willem,

If you want to keep the B&G Hydra 2000, I think you have two choices:

1.) Drill another hole and install a B&G Paddlewheel sensor. I do not think that you can find a compatible Speed and Depth Sensor that will replace the Depth Sensor and communicate to the B&G Hydra.

2.) Display SOG on the analog B&G cockpit gauges and on the Hydra FFD rather than SOW by installing a NMEA paddlewheel. 

The NMEA Paddlewheel device connects to a data port on the GPS, reads the GPS NMEA sentences and finds SOG. It then translates that SOG into B&G language as SOW. If you are a sailing purest, SOW may be important to you if you must know how much current is impacting your SOG, but remember SOG is what really counts and gets you where you are going. 

This solution may be the best for you. It is simple to install: 2 wires connect to 12VDC at the Hydra toggle switch, 2 wires connect to NMEA data OUT on your GPS and 2 wires connect to the B&G computer at the same place that sonic speed or paddlewheel connect.


NMEA Paddlewheel

NMEA Paddlewheel

The NMEA Paddlewheel converts NMEA from either a GPS or electromagnetic log to a paddlewheel output suitable for connecting directly to an instrument system, such as a B&G Hydra/Hercules.

Retail price £295.00

Best,

Bill
X-BeBe
Galveston Island


On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 2:37 PM, kavanga@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi,


I am quite new to this group, but owned from 2002 to 2010 a Santorin sloop (#69). Now I am on my way buying a SM 2K from 2001. Also on this SM (I have seen already quite a few with the same problem) the Sonic Speed sensors are not functioning.

Which options do I have? 

1. Buying a new sensor with paddle wheel that works with the Hydra 2000 system? Which brand and model do I need?

2. Buying a new sensor without moving parts. Which brand and model working with the Hydra 2000 system is recommended?

Willem J. Kroes




Ben and Gayle Super Maramu #347
 

Has anyone had any success repairing the sonic sensor?  Seems I recall someone on the forum repaired one...

Ben Driver
S/V La Bella Vita
SM #347

On Mar 8, 2017, at 5:12 PM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Willem,

If you want to keep the B&G Hydra 2000, I think you have two choices:

1.) Drill another hole and install a B&G Paddlewheel sensor. I do not think that you can find a compatible Speed and Depth Sensor that will replace the Depth Sensor and communicate to the B&G Hydra.

2.) Display SOG on the analog B&G cockpit gauges and on the Hydra FFD rather than SOW by installing a NMEA paddlewheel. 

The NMEA Paddlewheel device connects to a data port on the GPS, reads the GPS NMEA sentences and finds SOG. It then translates that SOG into B&G language as SOW. If you are a sailing purest, SOW may be important to you if you must know how much current is impacting your SOG, but remember SOG is what really counts and gets you where you are going. 

This solution may be the best for you. It is simple to install: 2 wires connect to 12VDC at the Hydra toggle switch, 2 wires connect to NMEA data OUT on your GPS and 2 wires connect to the B&G computer at the same place that sonic speed or paddlewheel connect.


NMEA Paddlewheel

NMEA Paddlewheel

The NMEA Paddlewheel converts NMEA from either a GPS or electromagnetic log to a paddlewheel output suitable for connecting directly to an instrument system, such as a B&G Hydra/Hercules.

Retail price £295.00

Best,

Bill
X-BeBe
Galveston Island


On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 2:37 PM, kavanga@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi,


I am quite new to this group, but owned from 2002 to 2010 a Santorin sloop (#69). Now I am on my way buying a SM 2K from 2001. Also on this SM (I have seen already quite a few with the same problem) the Sonic Speed sensors are not functioning.

Which options do I have? 

1. Buying a new sensor with paddle wheel that works with the Hydra 2000 system? Which brand and model do I need?

2. Buying a new sensor without moving parts. Which brand and model working with the Hydra 2000 system is recommended?

Willem J. Kroes




Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Ben,

The B&G Sonic Speed sensors are encased in plastic.

Bill 

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 4:56 PM, Ben Driver/YAHOO joedoakes66@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Has anyone had any success repairing the sonic sensor?  Seems I recall someone on the forum repaired one...

Ben Driver
S/V La Bella Vita
SM #347

On Mar 8, 2017, at 5:12 PM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Willem,

If you want to keep the B&G Hydra 2000, I think you have two choices:

1.) Drill another hole and install a B&G Paddlewheel sensor. I do not think that you can find a compatible Speed and Depth Sensor that will replace the Depth Sensor and communicate to the B&G Hydra.

2.) Display SOG on the analog B&G cockpit gauges and on the Hydra FFD rather than SOW by installing a NMEA paddlewheel. 

The NMEA Paddlewheel device connects to a data port on the GPS, reads the GPS NMEA sentences and finds SOG. It then translates that SOG into B&G language as SOW. If you are a sailing purest, SOW may be important to you if you must know how much current is impacting your SOG, but remember SOG is what really counts and gets you where you are going. 

This solution may be the best for you. It is simple to install: 2 wires connect to 12VDC at the Hydra toggle switch, 2 wires connect to NMEA data OUT on your GPS and 2 wires connect to the B&G computer at the same place that sonic speed or paddlewheel connect.


NMEA Paddlewheel

NMEA Paddlewheel

The NMEA Paddlewheel converts NMEA from either a GPS or electromagnetic log to a paddlewheel output suitable for connecting directly to an instrument system, such as a B&G Hydra/Hercules.

Retail price £295.00

Best,

Bill
X-BeBe
Galveston Island


On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 2:37 PM, kavanga@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi,


I am quite new to this group, but owned from 2002 to 2010 a Santorin sloop (#69). Now I am on my way buying a SM 2K from 2001. Also on this SM (I have seen already quite a few with the same problem) the Sonic Speed sensors are not functioning.

Which options do I have? 

1. Buying a new sensor with paddle wheel that works with the Hydra 2000 system? Which brand and model do I need?

2. Buying a new sensor without moving parts. Which brand and model working with the Hydra 2000 system is recommended?

Willem J. Kroes





greatketch@...
 

There are several Airmar "Smart sensors" that are paddlewheels that transmitt NMEA1083 data that can be routed to the Hydra-if you are highly attached to it.

Like this:  
www.airmar.com/uploads/brochures/dst800.pdf


Others are also available. Try looking at the Gemeco catalog to see what might work for you

What I did was use the old depth sounder hole to take a new speed sensor, (A CS4500 ultrasonic without moving parts) and installed a P79 in-hull transducer for depth data.  No new holes in the hull, and maintaining functionality.

Bill Kinney
SM #160 Harmonie
Punta Montalva, Puerto Rico


---In amelyachtowners@..., <yahoogroups@...> wrote :

Willem,

If you want to keep the B&G Hydra 2000, I think you have two choices:

1.) Drill another hole and install a B&G Paddlewheel sensor. I do not think that you can find a compatible Speed and Depth Sensor that will replace the Depth Sensor and communicate to the B&G Hydra.

2.) Display SOG on the analog B&G cockpit gauges and on the Hydra FFD rather than SOW by installing a NMEA paddlewheel. 

The NMEA Paddlewheel device connects to a data port on the GPS, reads the GPS NMEA sentences and finds SOG. It then translates that SOG into B&G language as SOW. If you are a sailing purest, SOW may be important to you if you must know how much current is impacting your SOG, but remember SOG is what really counts and gets you where you are going. 

This solution may be the best for you. It is simple to install: 2 wires connect to 12VDC at the Hydra toggle switch, 2 wires connect to NMEA data OUT on your GPS and 2 wires connect to the B&G computer at the same place that sonic speed or paddlewheel connect.


NMEA Paddlewheel

NMEA Paddlewheel

The NMEA Paddlewheel converts NMEA from either a GPS or electromagnetic log to a paddlewheel output suitable for connecting directly to an instrument system, such as a B&G Hydra/Hercules.

Retail price £295.00

Best,

Bill
X-BeBe
Galveston Island




Ben and Gayle Super Maramu #347
 



Ben Driver
S/V La Bella Vita
SM #347

On Mar 8, 2017, at 7:44 PM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Ben,

The B&G Sonic Speed sensors are encased in plastic.

Bill 

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 4:56 PM, Ben Driver/YAHOO joedoakes66@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Has anyone had any success repairing the sonic sensor?  Seems I recall someone on the forum repaired one...

Ben Driver
S/V La Bella Vita
SM #347

On Mar 8, 2017, at 5:12 PM, 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Willem,

If you want to keep the B&G Hydra 2000, I think you have two choices:

1.) Drill another hole and install a B&G Paddlewheel sensor. I do not think that you can find a compatible Speed and Depth Sensor that will replace the Depth Sensor and communicate to the B&G Hydra.

2.) Display SOG on the analog B&G cockpit gauges and on the Hydra FFD rather than SOW by installing a NMEA paddlewheel. 

The NMEA Paddlewheel device connects to a data port on the GPS, reads the GPS NMEA sentences and finds SOG. It then translates that SOG into B&G language as SOW. If you are a sailing purest, SOW may be important to you if you must know how much current is impacting your SOG, but remember SOG is what really counts and gets you where you are going. 

This solution may be the best for you. It is simple to install: 2 wires connect to 12VDC at the Hydra toggle switch, 2 wires connect to NMEA data OUT on your GPS and 2 wires connect to the B&G computer at the same place that sonic speed or paddlewheel connect.


NMEA Paddlewheel

The NMEA Paddlewheel converts NMEA from either a GPS or electromagnetic log to a paddlewheel output suitable for connecting directly to an instrument system, such as a B&G Hydra/Hercules.

Retail price £295.00

Best,

Bill
X-BeBe
Galveston Island


On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 2:37 PM, kavanga@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi,


I am quite new to this group, but owned from 2002 to 2010 a Santorin sloop (#69). Now I am on my way buying a SM 2K from 2001. Also on this SM (I have seen already quite a few with the same problem) the Sonic Speed sensors are not functioning.

Which options do I have? 

1. Buying a new sensor with paddle wheel that works with the Hydra 2000 system? Which brand and model do I need?

2. Buying a new sensor without moving parts. Which brand and model working with the Hydra 2000 system is recommended?

Willem J. Kroes





Posted by: "Bill & Judy Rouse" <yahoogroups@...>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (5)

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Ben and Gayle Super Maramu #347
 

OK. Thanks Bill.  

Ben Driver
S/V La Bella Vita
SM #347

On Mar 8, 2017, at 9:43 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

There are several Airmar "Smart sensors" that are paddlewheels that transmitt NMEA1083 data that can be routed to the Hydra-if you are highly attached to it.


Like this:  


Others are also available. Try looking at the Gemeco catalog to see what might work for you

What I did was use the old depth sounder hole to take a new speed sensor, (A CS4500 ultrasonic without moving parts) and installed a P79 in-hull transducer for depth data.  No new holes in the hull, and maintaining functionality.

Bill Kinney
SM #160 Harmonie
Punta Montalva, Puerto Rico


---In amelyachtowners@..., wrote :

Willem,

If you want to keep the B&G Hydra 2000, I think you have two choices:

1.) Drill another hole and install a B&G Paddlewheel sensor. I do not think that you can find a compatible Speed and Depth Sensor that will replace the Depth Sensor and communicate to the B&G Hydra.

2.) Display SOG on the analog B&G cockpit gauges and on the Hydra FFD rather than SOW by installing a NMEA paddlewheel. 

The NMEA Paddlewheel device connects to a data port on the GPS, reads the GPS NMEA sentences and finds SOG. It then translates that SOG into B&G language as SOW. If you are a sailing purest, SOW may be important to you if you must know how much current is impacting your SOG, but remember SOG is what really counts and gets you where you are going. 

This solution may be the best for you. It is simple to install: 2 wires connect to 12VDC at the Hydra toggle switch, 2 wires connect to NMEA data OUT on your GPS and 2 wires connect to the B&G computer at the same place that sonic speed or paddlewheel connect.


NMEA Paddlewheel

NMEA Paddlewheel

The NMEA Paddlewheel converts NMEA from either a GPS or electromagnetic log to a paddlewheel output suitable for connecting directly to an instrument system, such as a B&G Hydra/Hercules.

Retail price £295.00

Best,

Bill
X-BeBe
Galveston Island




Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Bill,

Did you connect that Airmar dual function thru-hull transducer to a B&G Hydra 2000 processor, or something else?

Bill
X-BeBe

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 7:43 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

There are several Airmar "Smart sensors" that are paddlewheels that transmitt NMEA1083 data that can be routed to the Hydra-if you are highly attached to it.


Like this:  


Others are also available. Try looking at the Gemeco catalog to see what might work for you

What I did was use the old depth sounder hole to take a new speed sensor, (A CS4500 ultrasonic without moving parts) and installed a P79 in-hull transducer for depth data.  No new holes in the hull, and maintaining functionality.

Bill Kinney
SM #160 Harmonie
Punta Montalva, Puerto Rico


---In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

Willem,

If you want to keep the B&G Hydra 2000, I think you have two choices:

1.) Drill another hole and install a B&G Paddlewheel sensor. I do not think that you can find a compatible Speed and Depth Sensor that will replace the Depth Sensor and communicate to the B&G Hydra.

2.) Display SOG on the analog B&G cockpit gauges and on the Hydra FFD rather than SOW by installing a NMEA paddlewheel. 

The NMEA Paddlewheel device connects to a data port on the GPS, reads the GPS NMEA sentences and finds SOG. It then translates that SOG into B&G language as SOW. If you are a sailing purest, SOW may be important to you if you must know how much current is impacting your SOG, but remember SOG is what really counts and gets you where you are going. 

This solution may be the best for you. It is simple to install: 2 wires connect to 12VDC at the Hydra toggle switch, 2 wires connect to NMEA data OUT on your GPS and 2 wires connect to the B&G computer at the same place that sonic speed or paddlewheel connect.


NMEA Paddlewheel

NMEA Paddlewheel

The NMEA Paddlewheel converts NMEA from either a GPS or electromagnetic log to a paddlewheel output suitable for connecting directly to an instrument system, such as a B&G Hydra/Hercules.

Retail price £295.00

Best,

Bill
X-BeBe
Galveston Island





Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

All and especially Alan and Willem:

Before you buy an Airmar dual transducer, read further...

I realize that you are looking to install something that will fix the failure of your Sonic Speed sensors, but it is NOT as easy as you may think.

My understanding of the B&G Hydra 2000 system is that the components and transducers communicate with the B&G Hydra 2000 via B&G language rather than NMEA 0183. The FFD connected to the Hydra 2000 computer does have NMEA IN and NMEA OUT, but NMEA sentences that connect to the FFD via NMEA IN, do not go upstream to the Hydra computer where it would be needed for computations requiring SOW such as True Wind. Additionally, your analog SOW gauge connects to the B&G Hydra Computer, not the FFD. 

I have discussed this with Bill Kinney, and at least a dozen other people, some that know much more than me, and like I said earlier, I truly believe there are only two ways to overcome the Sonic Speed sensor failure and keep everything else as Amel installed it: Drill a new hole, or buy the black box SOG to B&G SOW converter. Refer to my earlier email for details. 

The Airmar sensor that Bill Kinney suggested can be used, but other changes in instrumentation are required...Again, if you want to maintain everything as Amel installed it and correct a Sonic Speed sensor failure, I believe you have only the two choices I suggested earlier. 

I hope this clears this up. But, if anyone has discovered a way to use the Airmar Speed/Depth transducer without changing anything else in a B&G Hydra 2000, please chime in!


CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Galveston Island
Sent using Google Fi
+1(832) 380-4970

   

On Mar 9, 2017 07:21, "Bill & Judy Rouse" <yahoogroups@...> wrote:
Bill,

Did you connect that Airmar dual function thru-hull transducer to a B&G Hydra 2000 processor, or something else?

Bill
X-BeBe

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 7:43 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

There are several Airmar "Smart sensors" that are paddlewheels that transmitt NMEA1083 data that can be routed to the Hydra-if you are highly attached to it.


Like this:  


Others are also available. Try looking at the Gemeco catalog to see what might work for you

What I did was use the old depth sounder hole to take a new speed sensor, (A CS4500 ultrasonic without moving parts) and installed a P79 in-hull transducer for depth data.  No new holes in the hull, and maintaining functionality.

Bill Kinney
SM #160 Harmonie
Punta Montalva, Puerto Rico


---In amelyachtowners@...m, wrote :

Willem,

If you want to keep the B&G Hydra 2000, I think you have two choices:

1.) Drill another hole and install a B&G Paddlewheel sensor. I do not think that you can find a compatible Speed and Depth Sensor that will replace the Depth Sensor and communicate to the B&G Hydra.

2.) Display SOG on the analog B&G cockpit gauges and on the Hydra FFD rather than SOW by installing a NMEA paddlewheel. 

The NMEA Paddlewheel device connects to a data port on the GPS, reads the GPS NMEA sentences and finds SOG. It then translates that SOG into B&G language as SOW. If you are a sailing purest, SOW may be important to you if you must know how much current is impacting your SOG, but remember SOG is what really counts and gets you where you are going. 

This solution may be the best for you. It is simple to install: 2 wires connect to 12VDC at the Hydra toggle switch, 2 wires connect to NMEA data OUT on your GPS and 2 wires connect to the B&G computer at the same place that sonic speed or paddlewheel connect.


NMEA Paddlewheel

NMEA Paddlewheel

The NMEA Paddlewheel converts NMEA from either a GPS or electromagnetic log to a paddlewheel output suitable for connecting directly to an instrument system, such as a B&G Hydra/Hercules.

Retail price £295.00

Best,

Bill
X-BeBe
Galveston Island





greatketch@...
 

Bill Rouse has a good point.  Just so everybody understands what I did and how it works (and more importantly why it might not work for you!)

My NEW speed sensor (and depth, as well) does NOT connect to my HYDRA directly. They are NOT drop in replacements for the Sonic Speed sensor or B&G depth transducer.

Those new sensors connect to my chartplotter via a NMEA2000 link. The chartplotter does echo the data back to the HYDRA via NMEA 1083, and the HYDRA does display it on the digital screen, but I do not know that the HYDRA can calculate True Wind data using STW from NMEA because I have never looked for it there, my newer instruments handle all that in a more user-friendly way.

If the HYDRA is your sole means of displaying navigation data, I can not assure you it will work with any non-B&G transducer transmitting NMEA1083 data. It might, it might not.  Collecting and transmitting NMEA1083 data is a topic in and of itself...

At this point the only sensor that is connected to my HYDRA is the wind sensor--because it still works!  All my navigation data is displayed on my chartplotter (a B&G Zeus Touch) and on B&G Triton displays.  I would have removed the HYDRA digital display entirely, except for the marvelous job it does plugging the HYDRA shaped hole in the panel!

If you really want to keep the original B&G HYDRA system as your primary backbone for navigation data, you might not find the parts I used suitable.

Bill Kinney
SM#160 Harmonie


Alan Leslie
 

To Bill and Bill and Willem and anyone else following this thread....

What I proposed was not a dual speed/depth transducer, but an Airmar ultrasonic speed transducer CS4500, which will fit in the existing depth transducer housing, and which produces an analog output to a connection box that can connect directly to the ultrasonic speed connections on the Hydra computer (there are three connections for speed : sonic transducer, ultrasonic, paddlewheel).
Then as Bill Kinney suggested, I would use a P79 in hull depth transducer, that has the same output as the standard thru hull depth transducer, and connect that to the Hydra computer, in place of the B&G depth transducer.
No NMEA 0183, no NMEA 2000, just direct analog connections. 
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Alan,

I am sure that there are several people that would like to know if your proposal works for a B&G Sonic Speed sensor replacement. Like I said earlier, everyone I spoke to said that it will not, but like several other things involving electronic instrumentation, I found that the majority can be wrong. 

Be sure to report back. 


CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Galveston Island
Sent using Google Fi
+1(832) 380-4970

   

On Mar 9, 2017 21:50, "divanz620@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

To Bill and Bill and Willem and anyone else following this thread....


What I proposed was not a dual speed/depth transducer, but an Airmar ultrasonic speed transducer CS4500, which will fit in the existing depth transducer housing, and which produces an analog output to a connection box that can connect directly to the ultrasonic speed connections on the Hydra computer (there are three connections for speed : sonic transducer, ultrasonic, paddlewheel).
Then as Bill Kinney suggested, I would use a P79 in hull depth transducer, that has the same output as the standard thru hull depth transducer, and connect that to the Hydra computer, in place of the B&G depth transducer.
No NMEA 0183, no NMEA 2000, just direct analog connections. 
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Alan, Willem, and other interested owners.

I spent most of the day talking to various B&G distributors about substituting the Airmar 4500 for a faulty Sonic Speed sensor. Almost half of them told me NO, but I received a YES from a few that I respect.

So, I am reversing myself. I now believe that the Airmar 4500 will work when wired directly to the Hydra 2000 computer's speed input.

I apologize if I misled anyone, but when I experienced Sonic Speed sensor failure on BeBe, I could not find anyone that told me that the 4500 would work. I understand that Airmar had quality issues the first few years of production and this may have been the reason that the respected B&G distributors told me it would not work with the Hydra 2000.

I exchanged emails with Alan Leslie. He has a Airmar 4500 on order and will report to the group when he receives it.

Best,

Bill
X-BeBe

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 7:03 AM, Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...> wrote:
Alan,

I am sure that there are several people that would like to know if your proposal works for a B&G Sonic Speed sensor replacement. Like I said earlier, everyone I spoke to said that it will not, but like several other things involving electronic instrumentation, I found that the majority can be wrong. 

Be sure to report back. 


CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Galveston Island
Sent using Google Fi
+1(832) 380-4970

   

On Mar 9, 2017 21:50, "divanz620@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

To Bill and Bill and Willem and anyone else following this thread....


What I proposed was not a dual speed/depth transducer, but an Airmar ultrasonic speed transducer CS4500, which will fit in the existing depth transducer housing, and which produces an analog output to a connection box that can connect directly to the ultrasonic speed connections on the Hydra computer (there are three connections for speed : sonic transducer, ultrasonic, paddlewheel).
Then as Bill Kinney suggested, I would use a P79 in hull depth transducer, that has the same output as the standard thru hull depth transducer, and connect that to the Hydra computer, in place of the B&G depth transducer.
No NMEA 0183, no NMEA 2000, just direct analog connections. 
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437



greatketch@...
 

Awesome follow up, Bill!

I have so far been happy with the performance of the CS4500 in my system.  It is very nice not having to clean a paddlewheel after a day or two of sitting!

Bill Kinney
SM#160 Harmonie