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rigg of santorin when should it be changed?

christoph.kasper@...
 

hi

staying in Turkey ölast year  the guys there told me that the meanwhile twenty year old rigg is broken and should be changed. costs: 10000.- Euro !!!!!!!

now I checked the rigg in Sicily - no damage found, no rost -   the rigger was impressed because of the quality.

He told me to do the following repairs:  nothing!!  :-)


what is your experience - after twenty years- change or not?


thank you all for your ideas...

Christoph
greatketch@...
 

Twenty year old rigging is old.  I, personally, would not cross an ocean with it--no matter how good it looked.  Here is why.

Stainless steel rigging does not typically fail because of visible corrosion, assuming that good quality 316 or 316L wire was used.  The failure mode is much more insidious because you can not see it happening.  The rigger who looks, no matter how closely, at old rigging and pronounces it "good for another 15 years" does NOT know what he is talking about.

In the language of the metallurgist to "work" a metal is to bend or stretch it.  When you "work" the kinds of stainless steel that are used in rigging the metal hardens.  As it hardens it also gets brittle and weaker. Think about bending a stiff piece of wire back and forth.  It bends, it bends, it bends, it breaks. Nothing visible happens. until the strands of the wire start to break.

Now, a well tuned sailboat rig (i.e., nice tight wires) doesn't "work" its wires a much, but it does work them. "Work" happens every time they stretch a little tiny bit in strong winds, or in the shock load imposed by hitting a big wave.

In addition to work hardening, there is also crevice corrosion to worry about.  It also happens even to the best stainless when chloride is around.  Without a detailed dye test (preferably magnaflux) it can be very hard to see, if it is visible at all.  This happens faster in saltier water (I.e., The Med), and warmer temperatures (i.e., everywhere we like to sail!)

The problem with any recommendation on this subject is that it is an odds game.  The chances of 5 year old rigging that has been in a well tuned rig failing due to work-hardening or crevice corrosion are near zero. The odds of a 30 year old rig being significantly weaker than designed is very high.  

You have to draw the line somewhere.  A conservative number is 15 years, based on the opinions of lots of people whose opinion I trust.  Is it conservative?  For most boats, under most condidtions--yes.  But in the middle of the ocean, I am a very conservative guy.

When I worked for a charter company with boats that were sailed in strong winds a LOT, we changed small boat rigging every five years, and big boat rigging every seven.  

Bill Kinney
SM#160 Harmonie
Ponce, P.R.
Craig Briggs
 

Hi Christoph,
     Adding to Ian and Bill K's good advice, what year is your Santorin and is the rigging original? Just wondering if it may be a bit more than 20 years. You'll also want to consider what kind of sailing you'll be doing. Day saying in the Med obviously being less risky than an ocean passage, although 20 or more years is beyond my comfort level. What motivated us to replace our rigging was having a mizzen forward lower stay break while sailing off Catania, Sicily. The rig was 18 years old.
     Regarding price, you can compare your 10000 Euro quote from Turkey with 4851 Euros we paid to Acmo for our Santorin rigging, including shipping to Italy, all new turnbuckles etc. I'd guess the Turkey quote included labor and Acmo was material only. Using Acmo has the advantage that they made your original rigging and therefore know the exact specs and provide factory swaged stays that only need to be put up - no field cutting and swaging to get the lengths right. They also supply the "special" short turnbuckle for the headstay, 
     The only change we made from the original specification was to use standard right-hand turnbuckles rather than the left-handed ones Amel originally specified which would have added about 1000 Euros to the cost. Nobody has ever explained why Amel used left-handed turnbuckles.
     Katherine and I did all the work ourselves with the mast up. Took a week doing 2 or 3 stays a day - not difficult and you will know it's done right (or, I suppose, have nobody to blame but yourself :-)
Cheers,
Craig and Katherine, SN#68 Sangaris
 


---In amelyachtowners@..., <greatketch@...> wrote :

Twenty year old rigging is old.  I, personally, would not cross an ocean with it--no matter how good it looked.  Here is why.

Stainless steel rigging does not typically fail because of visible corrosion, assuming that good quality 316 or 316L wire was used.  The failure mode is much more insidious because you can not see it happening.  The rigger who looks, no matter how closely, at old rigging and pronounces it "good for another 15 years" does NOT know what he is talking about.

In the language of the metallurgist to "work" a metal is to bend or stretch it.  When you "work" the kinds of stainless steel that are used in rigging the metal hardens.  As it hardens it also gets brittle and weaker. Think about bending a stiff piece of wire back and forth.  It bends, it bends, it bends, it breaks. Nothing visible happens. until the strands of the wire start to break.

Now, a well tuned sailboat rig (i.e., nice tight wires) doesn't "work" its wires a much, but it does work them. "Work" happens every time they stretch a little tiny bit in strong winds, or in the shock load imposed by hitting a big wave.

In addition to work hardening, there is also crevice corrosion to worry about.  It also happens even to the best stainless when chloride is around.  Without a detailed dye test (preferably magnaflux) it can be very hard to see, if it is visible at all.  This happens faster in saltier water (I.e., The Med), and warmer temperatures (i.e., everywhere we like to sail!)

The problem with any recommendation on this subject is that it is an odds game.  The chances of 5 year old rigging that has been in a well tuned rig failing due to work-hardening or crevice corrosion are near zero. The odds of a 30 year old rig being significantly weaker than designed is very high.  

You have to draw the line somewhere.  A conservative number is 15 years, based on the opinions of lots of people whose opinion I trust.  Is it conservative?  For most boats, under most condidtions--yes.  But in the middle of the ocean, I am a very conservative guy.

When I worked for a charter company with boats that were sailed in strong winds a LOT, we changed small boat rigging every five years, and big boat rigging every seven.  

Bill Kinney
SM#160 Harmonie
Ponce, P.R.
Craig Briggs
 

Hi Christoph,
    I see Bill R also replied at the same time as I did. If you do not want to do this yourself for about 5000 Euro with original quality from ACMO, there is, indeed, an excellent rigger in Sicily who could do the installation for you. He is Franco Catania (Francesco) and he has an excellent reputation working on many Gran Prix race boats throughout the Med. He fixed our broken stay which kept us going until we got the entire new rig from ACMO. I'd recommend him highly. He's located in the NE corner of Catania Harbor.  
    He could certainly fabricate the rigging himself, if that's what you choose, but it would be far better (and likely much less expensive) to simply have ACMO ship the material to you and have Franco install it.
Cheers,
Craig Briggs, SN#68, Sangaris
pstas2003 <no_reply@...>
 

Craig and Katherine,

How long ago did you obtain your rigging from ACMO?  I just received a quote from them for a Super Maramu for 7954 € without shipping.

I realize a SM would be somewhat more expensive than a Santorin, but I had read a number of times that the number was closer to 5000 €.

Has anyone else received a quote recently from ACMO?

Thank you in advance for any assistance.

Paul Stascavage
SM #466 - s/v Rita Kathryn
Saint Lucia

RitaKathryn.com
John Clark
 

Hi Paul,
I just had rigging replaced in Le Marin by Caraibe for 10,500 Euro. They are the shop that Amel employs in Martinique and uses all original ACMO hardware.

They were working on a SM when I got my quote and I followed another SM into the work pier. As we were leaving another Amel was pulling in, so they are quite experienced with Amel rigs.
It was three days work, they handled everythIng.

Gatean was the fellow I talked to, he can speak english.

Regards. John

John Clark
Vent de Soleil SM 37
Great Bay, Sint Maarten
Bob Ross
 

Hi Paul,

I am tying to find the contact for an ACMO SM 2000 rigging quote. I thought I saw the contact email in this (or other) thread but alas cannot find it now. I sent a generic e-mail request to ACMO via their website but fear it may be lost in the works now for about a week.

Do you or anyone else have a recent contact for requesting a standing rig quote for our SM 2000 (2002 H#362).
Thanks so much,
Bob Ross
SM #362 S/V Nomad
USA
Willem Kroes
 

Hi Kasper,

What is the name of the rigger who did the survey on your Santorin's rig in Sicily (or the boatyard /marina)?

Kind regards,

Willem Kroes

SM # 351 "Kavanga"

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