[Amel Yacht Owners] Lofrans Tigres Undersized


Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Stephen,

There were far too many SMs built by Amel with a Lofrans 1200 for it to be wrong. 

Additionally, you will likely, over the years of ownership, begin to have a strong appreciation for the choices of equipment and design that Henri Amel made on the Super Maramu. Let me assure you that no member of this group has the knowledge to do a better job than Captain Amel. 

I used that 1200 around the world with as much as about 80 meters deployed. The 1200 also spent considerable amount of time underwater in heavy seas. The only problem I have ever seen with the 1200 is the operator, because the 1200 is strong enough to bend the anchor shank. 

Be sure to always use a snubber, keep the clutch cone greased, and when retrieving the anchor, pause the windlass when you hear it strain, then restart when the chain slacks again. 

There is a "Prime Directive" for all Amels - "Respect the Amel design and do not change anything for at least one year." If you follow this rule, at the end of a year you will have gained enough confidence in Amel design that you probably will forget about the fancy-dancy change you were thinking about. If not, wait another year. 

Trust me when I tell you that your boat will sell faster and for more if it has not been modified. 

All of that said, the 1500 is probably not that much of a change, and possibly wasn't available when the SM was designed. So, if it is the only thing available, it's probably OK, However, if your 1200 seems to be too weak, either your technique is wrong, or it needs a rebuild. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

   

On Jul 17, 2017 07:12, "stephen_lees@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

I am at that time when I need to rebuild my Lofrans Tigre's windlass. I did some research on the option to replace the whole thing with a new Tigre's or possibly replace with a Maxwell. I the process I went through the Lofrans winch selection feature and discovered that the Tigres is not rated for the 53' Super Maramu. Recommended boat length is well under 53' and the recommended Model is the Falkon. It is very similar but I haven't yet checked deck bolt configuration, etc.

Can anyone comment on why Amel put what appears to be an undersized windlass?

Stephen Lees
SV Sequel, SM349


stephen_lees@...
 

Thank you all for your responses. My wife an I have owned our SM for 4 years now an do truly understand Henri Amel's passion and precision that went into all his boat, but the Auper Maramu especially. We fully respect the design and are committed to maintaining its integrity.

The current problems with our windlass re the result of poor or no maintainace by previous owners (and the current ones), coming up to speed too slowly on the appropriate use of a windlass (first boat with an electric one) and recent change to a 49 kg Vulcan anchor which does not sit well on the bow and is difficult to not tension the chain on the windlass when it comes aboard. So user neglect, user misuse and the learning curve with the new anchor have brought me to the current place.

So you learn from you errors and when I get to that place I spend a lot of time educating myself. That is what lead me to the Lofrans windlass selection chart. I was curious about what this group had to say and appreciate it.

So I have priced the repair parts which come to about USD 2,000 and a new 1,500 watt Tigres is about USD 2,800 (all from P2marine.com). So monetarily itt makes sense to go with a new one even though I would do the rebuild (and part of me would enjoy rebuilding it), but they come with a foot switch and not the customized electric buttons on the rear housing. I would guess I could use the old rear housing on the new body and put in new switches. Or drill out the new rear housing for the switches.

It is possible to get replacement 1,200 watt motors so I might be able to get one configured that way, though I believe the 100 watt breaker already servicing the windlass and foc furler motor would be sufficient for th 1,500 watt version.

Can anyone comment on the foot switch versus button solutions or should I just respect the Amel solution? Besides, the idea of drilling another hole in the foredeck doesn't sound appealing to me.

Finally, can anyone comment on sources in the US besides P2marine.com and Lofrans dealers. Or does Amel sell the original setup and should be considered?

Best,
Stephen Lees
New York, NY
SV Sequel
SM#349


Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Good afternoon Steven,

I totally agree with you on the ease to just swap with a new windlass.
Should you want to rebuilt your Tigres Windlass, here is the illustration.
Took me 6 half days or about 30 hours.
http://nikimat.com/lofrans_tigres_windlass_overhaul.html

Personally I would keep the old rear housing.

If your electric motor is still working, I would keep it as a spare, someone might need one.
I would keep every working part as a spare (bolt, etc.).

I purchase all my spare parts from Imtra in the US as well as from Amel Martinique and La Rochelle
You can see the list on:
http://nikimat.com/spare_parts_windlass_lofran_tigre.html

Sincerely, Alexandre
SM2K #289 NIKIMAT
Port de Plaisance de Gustavia, Saint Barthélémy, FWI



--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 7/17/17, stephen_lees@yahoo.com [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Lofrans Tigres Undersized
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, July 17, 2017, 10:54 AM


 









Thank you all for your responses. My wife an I have
owned our SM for 4 years now an do truly understand Henri
Amel's passion and precision that went into all his
boat, but the Auper Maramu especially. We fully respect the
design and are committed to maintaining its integrity.



The current problems with our windlass re the result of poor
or no maintainace by previous owners (and the current ones),
coming up to speed too slowly on the appropriate use of a
windlass (first boat with an electric one) and recent change
to a 49 kg Vulcan anchor which does not sit well on the bow
and is difficult to not tension the chain on the windlass
when it comes aboard. So user neglect, user misuse and the
learning curve with the new anchor have brought me to the
current place.



So you learn from you errors and when I get to that place I
spend a lot of time educating myself. That is what lead me
to the Lofrans windlass selection chart. I was curious about
what this group had to say and appreciate it.



So I have priced the repair parts which come to about USD
2,000 and a new 1,500 watt Tigres is about USD 2,800 (all
from P2marine.com). So monetarily itt makes sense to go
with a new one even though I would do the rebuild (and part
of me would enjoy rebuilding it), but they come with a foot
switch and not the customized electric buttons on the rear
housing. I would guess I could use the old rear housing on
the new body and put in new switches. Or drill out the new
rear housing for the switches.



It is possible to get replacement 1,200 watt motors so I
might be able to get one configured that way, though I
believe the 100 watt breaker already servicing the windlass
and foc furler motor would be sufficient for th 1,500 watt
version.



Can anyone comment on the foot switch versus button
solutions or should I just respect the Amel solution?
Besides, the idea of drilling another hole in the foredeck
doesn't sound appealing to me.



Finally, can anyone comment on sources in the US besides
P2marine.com and Lofrans dealers. Or does Amel sell the
original setup and should be considered?



Best,

Stephen Lees

New York, NY

SV Sequel

SM#349


Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Steve,

The downside to a foot switch(s) is that you will drill holes in the deck. 

Personally, I would never do that, but some people have.

The Lofrans/Amel button switches are great, but are better if you go forward with a brush on a long handle. You may or may not need the brush to clean the chain in all muddy anchorages, but the handle is perfect for operating the buttons...you can actually lean over the rail and press the button with the handle.

I would only use a chain stopper, if you already have one, and also only to keep the anchor retained on deck for passages. If you don't have a stopper, I would recommend not installing one (see above drilling holes), but be sure that you tie the anchor on board for passages. It is really great that the Lofrans has the cleat on top because after wrapping a piece of line twice around the chain, I would cleat it to that cleat because you can see that cleat from the helm. BeBe #387 came from the Amel yard with a piece of line secured to the large center cleat and about 1 meter long...perfect for securing the anchor...do you know how many anchors with chain are lost on passages?

For what it is worth, I used a 7 meter long snubber made from 1" multiplait nylon line with a loop at one end and a Stainless Pelican Hook at the other. If you have a tri-roller on the bow, use the center roller for the snubber. Leave a large loop of lazy chain on the boat side of the hook. Always grease the cone clutch of your windlass so that it WILL slip with heavy tension.

BTW, isn't 49kg overkill? I have anchored around the world with a 30kg Wasi Bugel which came with #387. With the correct technique it never will let you down.

I hope this helps you.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970





greatketch@...
 

On the windlass switches:

I don't like the ones that Amel mounted on the windlass housing. The issue I have with them is I can not see the anchor coming up with hands or foot on those switches.  Watching what is happening is important--to me. Those switches also give another possible route for water ingress to the motor housing.  When ours failed we replaced the rubber covered switches with o-ring sealed metal ones, but we almost never use them. If I was installing a new windlass, I would not miss them.

The previous owner of our boat installed a handheld remote switch and that is the solution we always use when pulling up the anchor.  The remote is wired to a socket installed in the port side bow locker.  The coiled cord is long enough to let us lean over the bow pulpit and watch the chain and anchor as it comes up.  A much better solution, at least for me.  I find the control of a finger operated switch to be more precise and accurate than a foot switch.  I think foot switches, even with covers, have too high a likelihood of accidental activation.  The new switches we installed on the motor housing are recessed.  You can't turn them on with a shoed foot, but it is also really hard to bump them on by accident.

Any waterproof switch, is going to need to be replaced as a routine maintenance item--before it fails.  Most deck switches have a 3 to 5 year life span.  Our remote control lives below deck, out of sun and water. 

My thoughts on anchoring procedures in general can be read here: https://fetchinketch.net/boat_thoughts/anchoring-is-easy/

Bill Kinney
SM#160 Harmonie
Beverly, Mass


stephen_lees@...
 

Bill,

Thanks for your thoughts. I like the idea of the remote on a long cord. I suppose there are several remotes just for this purpose available with a little digging.

Your anchoring procedures are pretty consistent with mine, but it is true that I have only been using about 12'. I will try the longer and am a fan of the three strand for that purpose.

I only have one question though. As the boat is drifting back and as you are putting tension on the anchor while in reverse, is th stress being taken directly by the windlass. Do you engage the little rotating lock that hooks into the slots in gipsy? Or do you have a chain stopper engaged?

One last note. That is that this is a small world. My teenage years were spent growing up in Marblehead and Hamilton so I know Beverly well, though it isn't the same now as it was back then. I obviously caught the sailing bug while living in Marblehead and no one has found a cure . . . Thankfully. Where do you keep Harmonie?

Stephen Lees
S/V Sequel, SM53 #349
New York, NY


stephen_lees@...
 

Bill,

Did I write 49 kg? It was a typo. I have a 40 kg Vulcan. Rockna recommends a 33 kg and I debated a long time before deciding on the 40. This is the updated Rockna without the hoop on it. I thought it would fit better on the roller but it swings back and forth too much do my taste. But it holds very nicely. I have been using a piece of spectra tied to the anchor and cleated on the main cleat. No strectch and great abrasion resistance.

Anyhow, thanks for your input to this discussion. I agree on using the center roller on the 3 roller configuration.

Best,
Stephen Lees
S/V Sequel, SM53 #349
New York, NY


John Clark
 

I too have, courtesy of the previous owners, a remote control on a coiled cord.  It resides in the V-berth.  The new windlass (Lofgren 1200 watt) does not have the buttons.

John Clark
SV Annie SM 37
Charleston, SC

On Jul 17, 2017 5:47 PM, "stephen_lees@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill,

Thanks for your thoughts. I like the idea of the remote on a long cord. I suppose there are several remotes just for this purpose available with a little digging.

Your anchoring procedures are pretty consistent with mine, but it is true that I have only been using about 12'. I will try the longer and am a fan of the three strand for that purpose.

I only have one question though. As the boat is drifting back and as you are putting tension on the anchor while in reverse, is th stress being taken directly by the windlass. Do you engage the little rotating lock that hooks into the slots in gipsy? Or do you have a chain stopper engaged?

One last note. That is that this is a small world. My teenage years were spent growing up in Marblehead and Hamilton so I know Beverly well, though it isn't the same now as it was back then. I obviously caught the sailing bug while living in Marblehead and no one has found a cure . . . Thankfully. Where do you keep Harmonie?

Stephen Lees
S/V Sequel, SM53 #349
New York, NY



Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Stephen,

Anchoring:
  1. I like to lay the chain out without clumps as I am moving in reverse. 
  2. I also like to stop paying out chain 2 times and let the chain jerk against the windlass. This helps set the anchor. It will do no damage if you have properly greased the clutch cone and have not overtightened the 3-prong clutch release-lock...the clutch cone will simply slip a little. 
  3. Then when I am in position, with the motor in idle reverse, I will attach the snubber, paying out the chain until I have a nice lazy loop of chain...
  4. At this point, I will have the helm rev 2200 in reverse to check the set of the anchor...that load will be on the main cleat and snubber.
The 2 times mentioned above also helps in higher winds when the bow catches the wind and begins to turn. The jerking straightens you out again.

I hope this helps...there are hundreds of ways to set an anchor...this is the one that I use.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970





On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 4:47 PM, stephen_lees@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Bill,

Thanks for your thoughts. I like the idea of the remote on a long cord. I suppose there are several remotes just for this purpose available with a little digging.

Your anchoring procedures are pretty consistent with mine, but it is true that I have only been using about 12'. I will try the longer and am a fan of the three strand for that purpose.

I only have one question though. As the boat is drifting back and as you are putting tension on the anchor while in reverse, is th stress being taken directly by the windlass. Do you engage the little rotating lock that hooks into the slots in gipsy? Or do you have a chain stopper engaged?

One last note. That is that this is a small world. My teenage years were spent growing up in Marblehead and Hamilton so I know Beverly well, though it isn't the same now as it was back then. I obviously caught the sailing bug while living in Marblehead and no one has found a cure . . . Thankfully. Where do you keep Harmonie?

Stephen Lees
S/V Sequel, SM53 #349
New York, NY



greatketch@...
 


The remote is great.  No holes in the deck. No exposed switches to maintain. Ours came from Quick, the Italian windlass manufacturer.  http://www.quickusastore.com/hand-held-remote-control.html I am sure others would work.  When you get right down to it, all it is is a pair of momentary switches in a pretty box.

I have no chain stopper, and I do not put a full load on the windlass.  The snubber is usually attached before the boat comes down hard on the chain. If it is really windy and the boat drifts back quickly, the load can come on the chain before the snubber is ready, but it hasn't been a problem. If it was so windy that I was worried about the clutch slipping before I was ready, I'd throw a loop of chain around the windlass cleat to hold things while I got the snubber ready.  We do not back down on the chain without the snubber attached.

As has already been mentioned, if your windlass is properly maintained, with a well greased clutch, it will slip before damaging itself.  It seems counter intuitive to grease this part, but if you do not and the clutch locks together serious damage can be done to the woodruff key and shaft.

The only time we use that cam lock on the gypsy is when we are sailing.  The anchor is tied up, the motor is turned off with a breaker, and the clutch slacked. The lock is there as a belt with the suspenders.

We actually don't "keep" Harmonie anywhere.  She is our only home, and we do not have a home port. We are just sea gypsies. We stopped here because we need a quick haul out to install a new depth transducer, then we'll be headed further north for the summer.

Bill Kinney
SM#160, Harmonie
Beverly, Mass

---In amelyachtowners@..., <stephen_lees@...> wrote :

Bill,

Thanks for your thoughts. I like the idea of the remote on a long cord. I suppose there are several remotes just for this purpose available with a little digging.

Your anchoring procedures are pretty consistent with mine, but it is true that I have only been using about 12'. I will try the longer and am a fan of the three strand for that purpose.

I only have one question though. As the boat is drifting back and as you are putting tension on the anchor while in reverse, is th stress being taken directly by the windlass. Do you engage the little rotating lock that hooks into the slots in gipsy? Or do you have a chain stopper engaged?

One last note. That is that this is a small world. My teenage years were spent growing up in Marblehead and Hamilton so I know Beverly well, though it isn't the same now as it was back then. I obviously caught the sailing bug while living in Marblehead and no one has found a cure . . . Thankfully. Where do you keep Harmonie?

Stephen Lees
S/V Sequel, SM53 #349
New York, NY


greatketch@...
 

If you are having trouble with an anchor sitting tightly on the bow roller, you might want to check out this product from Mantus Anchors: https://www.mantusmarine.com/mantus-anchor-mate/

I have the 40kg Rocna on Harmonie, and it sits just fine on our roller, but I had trouble on my old boat with a Mantus anchor not snugging down tightly.  The "Anchor Mate" fixed it very nicely.    Not sure how, or even if, it would attach to the Amel bow, but it worked great on the last boat.

Bill Kinney
SM@#160, Harmonie
Beverly, Mass


---In amelyachtowners@..., <stephen_lees@...> wrote :

Bill,

Did I write 49 kg? It was a typo. I have a 40 kg Vulcan. Rockna recommends a 33 kg and I debated a long time before deciding on the 40. This is the updated Rockna without the hoop on it. I thought it would fit better on the roller but it swings back and forth too much do my taste. But it holds very nicely. I have been using a piece of spectra tied to the anchor and cleated on the main cleat. No strectch and great abrasion resistance.

Anyhow, thanks for your input to this discussion. I agree on using the center roller on the 3 roller configuration.

Best,
Stephen Lees
S/V Sequel, SM53 #349
New York, NY


eric freedman
 

Hi Stephen,

Defender marine sells Lofrans.

 

I see you are in NY. I live in Huntington and have Kimberlite there.

If you are ever out this way please stop by.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2017 11:54 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Lofrans Tigres Undersized

 

 

Thank you all for your responses. My wife an I have owned our SM for 4 years now an do truly understand Henri Amel's passion and precision that went into all his boat, but the Auper Maramu especially. We fully respect the design and are committed to maintaining its integrity.

The current problems with our windlass re the result of poor or no maintainace by previous owners (and the current ones), coming up to speed too slowly on the appropriate use of a windlass (first boat with an electric one) and recent change to a 49 kg Vulcan anchor which does not sit well on the bow and is difficult to not tension the chain on the windlass when it comes aboard. So user neglect, user misuse and the learning curve with the new anchor have brought me to the current place.

So you learn from you errors and when I get to that place I spend a lot of time educating myself. That is what lead me to the Lofrans windlass selection chart. I was curious about what this group had to say and appreciate it.

So I have priced the repair parts which come to about USD 2,000 and a new 1,500 watt Tigres is about USD 2,800 (all from P2marine.com). So monetarily itt makes sense to go with a new one even though I would do the rebuild (and part of me would enjoy rebuilding it), but they come with a foot switch and not the customized electric buttons on the rear housing. I would guess I could use the old rear housing on the new body and put in new switches. Or drill out the new rear housing for the switches.

It is possible to get replacement 1,200 watt motors so I might be able to get one configured that way, though I believe the 100 watt breaker already servicing the windlass and foc furler motor would be sufficient for th 1,500 watt version.

Can anyone comment on the foot switch versus button solutions or should I just respect the Amel solution? Besides, the idea of drilling another hole in the foredeck doesn't sound appealing to me.

Finally, can anyone comment on sources in the US besides P2marine.com and Lofrans dealers. Or does Amel sell the original setup and should be considered?

Best,
Stephen Lees
New York, NY
SV Sequel
SM#349


stephen_lees@...
 

Bill,

Do you have the three roller solution on the bow? If so, do you have the Rockna in the starboard roller aligned with the windlass gypsy?

Stephen
SV Sequel, SM349


Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Stephen,

I don't know if you are asking me or Bill Kinney. BeBe #387 has a 30kg Wasi Bugel on the Stbd roller.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


stephen_lees@...
 

Eric,

Yes, we live in the city but keep Sequel in Oyster Bay. Did you keep Kimberlite in Oyster Bay one summer a few years ago? I recall seeing one there.

We are out to the West Marine in Huntington occasionally and for other reasons.

We know Frank McCarroll who we understand has an SM53 in Huntington as well. We hired him to help us take Sequel to Fort Lauderdale the first winter we had her. We haven't touched base with him since. He was in the middle of restoring his boat after lightning caused extensive damage. Do you know him?

Best,
Stephen Lees
S/V Sequel SM349


eric freedman
 

Hi Stephen,

I keep Kimberlite in the Caribbean in the winter and Huntington in the Summer at the HYC.

I have been to oyster bay to attend CCA Gam , however I was only there for a day or two.

 

If you come over to Huntington , give me a shout we can get together for a drink.

I know Frank . He has his boat up for sale. I first met him in either 98 or 99 in Bermuda when I had my tartan.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2017 7:35 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Lofrans Tigres Undersized

 

 

Eric,

Yes, we live in the city but keep Sequel in Oyster Bay. Did you keep Kimberlite in Oyster Bay one summer a few years ago? I recall seeing one there.

We are out to the West Marine in Huntington occasionally and for other reasons.

We know Frank McCarroll who we understand has an SM53 in Huntington as well. We hired him to help us take Sequel to Fort Lauderdale the first winter we had her. We haven't touched base with him since. He was in the middle of restoring his boat after lightning caused extensive damage. Do you know him?

Best,
Stephen Lees
S/V Sequel SM349


Alan Leslie
 

1200 vs 1500W motors
The 1500 motor is slightly bigger in diameter than the 1200 which means you can't get the cover off with the Windlass in situations
Just FYI
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


greatketch@...
 



I do not have the "three roller" bow.  Just two rollers on my boat.  The main roller holds the Rocna, and we have nothing on the roller on the port side.


---In amelyachtowners@..., <stephen_lees@...> wrote :

Bill,

Do you have the three roller solution on the bow? If so, do you have the Rockna in the starboard roller aligned with the windlass gypsy?

Stephen
SV Sequel, SM349


stephen_lees@...
 

Hi Alan,

I am not sure what situations you mean. By "cover" are you referring to the rear housing? Can you be more specific?

Thanks,
Stephen
S/V Sequel SM349


Alan Leslie
 

Sorry Stephen
Yes the rear cover. It's the only removable cover on the Tigres. It won't come off as the diameter of the 1500W motor is such that the cover hits the cabin top when you try to slide it back.
I know this because we replaced our motor last year and had to lift up the winch to get the rear cover on.
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437