Topics

[Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...


James Alton
 

Bill,

   I inspected a 1984 Maramu which also had rotten panels in the bow locker.  The bottom of the panel forming the floor of the two side lockers was not glassed on the bottom of that boat.  The bottom of the same panel on my boat is glassed over and seems fine.  If you go back with plywood,  I would strongly suggest using a panel with a Loyds stamp to insure that the adhesive used passes the boiling water test to insure that you will not have delamination of the plies.  I would also select a wood species in the durable category to reduce the chance of rot.  The Sapele has held up pretty well for me.  Using epoxy resin will do a much better job of sealing the wood against moisture than polyester.  I have had good luck with the West System Epoxy which was developed for cold moulded boat construction and has been proven effective over decades of use.  Just be sure to remove the amine blush between coats or layers.  I am sure that there are other good epoxies out there, I just have not used many others.  If you start with epoxy, also use it to bond in the panels since polyester does not bond well to epoxy. You might also want to consider using a panel cored with a non cellulose based material or if you can stand the weight go with a solid glass panel.     On my boat, I pull out the anchor rode,  rinse and dry on deck whenever possible.  I also wash out the anchor locker and usually keep the access door to the anchor locker partially or fully open to vent.  Anything that you can do to keep the humidity level down is helpful. Wood is a good choice for the core as it is stiff for it's weight.  Wood will last essentially forever it you can just keep it dry.  Wood is used to form the internal structure of our boats so the same concerns about moisture apply.  The bilge area under the forward head is another area that I am very careful to keep perfectly dry since it is a very structurally important part of the hull.  Best of luck with the repairs.

James Alton SV Sueno
Maramu #220



Sent from Samsung tablet.

-------- Original message --------
From: "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 10/12/17 05:58 (GMT+01:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

 

The plywood soles of Harmonie's bow lockers are seriously rotten.  I was kind of surprised to see that the bottoms of these plywood sheets (i.e., the top of the chain locker) were "naked", without fiberglass sheathing.  I suspect exposure to the constant damp of the chain locker for 20 years was the start of the problem.


Replacement seems to be a fairly straight forward, fiberglass project, but if anyone else has had this problem and has any hints or "gothcha's" to watch for, I'd love to hear them!


Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

Back Creek, Annapolis, MD





Craig Briggs
 

I've clipped James' reply just to highlight the venting aspect. I had a louver made (matching the interior wood) for the forward bulkhead chain locker access panel. I keep in place instead of the solid panel unless making an offshore passage,  when I simply put switch it back to the solid panel.. 
Would suggest, when repairing the bow locker floor panels, that you include a lift out access panel in the middle so you can easily rinse out the chain locker periodically.
Craig Briggs, SN68 Sangaris


---In amelyachtowners@..., <lokiyawl2@...> wrote :

Bill,

   I inspected a 1984 Maramu which also had rotten panels in the bow locker.  .....     On my boat, I pull out the anchor rode,  rinse and dry on deck whenever possible.  I also wash out the anchor locker and usually keep the access door to the anchor locker partially or fully open to vent.  Anything that you can do to keep the humidity level down is helpful............ Best of luck with the repairs.

James Alton SV Sueno
Maramu #220



Sent from Samsung tablet.

-------- Original message --------
From: "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 10/12/17 05:58 (GMT+01:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

 

The plywood soles of Harmonie's bow lockers are seriously rotten.  I was kind of surprised to see that the bottoms of these plywood sheets (i.e., the top of the chain locker) were "naked", without fiberglass sheathing.  I suspect exposure to the constant damp of the chain locker for 20 years was the start of the problem.


Replacement seems to be a fairly straight forward, fiberglass project, but if anyone else has had this problem and has any hints or "gothcha's" to watch for, I'd love to hear them!


Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

Back Creek, Annapolis, MD





Patrick McAneny
 

Bill, I had the same problem a few years ago. I cut the floors out leaving about an inch of tabbing all the way around. Then cut another piece of plywood to fit , resting on the tabbing. I epoxied the bottom of the plywood first , then installed it and glassed it into place . I glassed the entire surface , rather than simply painting it. It was nice meeting you in Annapolis.
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Wed, Oct 11, 2017 11:59 pm
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

 
The plywood soles of Harmonie's bow lockers are seriously rotten.  I was kind of surprised to see that the bottoms of these plywood sheets (i.e., the top of the chain locker) were "naked", without fiberglass sheathing.  I suspect exposure to the constant damp of the chain locker for 20 years was the start of the problem.

Replacement seems to be a fairly straight forward, fiberglass project, but if anyone else has had this problem and has any hints or "gothcha's" to watch for, I'd love to hear them!

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD




Dan Carlson
 

Has anyone used linseed oil or other wood preservative to treat their exposed wood above the chain locker?  

I inspected my wood on BeBe, SM387, before leaving for the summer and have it on my list to apply something protective when I return.

Dan Carlson


On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 7:16 AM, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners]
wrote:
 

Bill, I had the same problem a few years ago. I cut the floors out leaving about an inch of tabbing all the way around. Then cut another piece of plywood to fit , resting on the tabbing. I epoxied the bottom of the plywood first , then installed it and glassed it into place . I glassed the entire surface , rather than simply painting it. It was nice meeting you in Annapolis.

Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners Sent: Wed, Oct 11, 2017 11:59 pm
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

 
The plywood soles of Harmonie's bow lockers are seriously rotten.  I was kind of surprised to see that the bottoms of these plywood sheets (i.e., the top of the chain locker) were "naked", without fiberglass sheathing.  I suspect exposure to the constant damp of the chain locker for 20 years was the start of the problem.

Replacement seems to be a fairly straight forward, fiberglass project, but if anyone else has had this problem and has any hints or "gothcha's" to watch for, I'd love to hear them!

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD




James Alton
 

Dan,

  Odds are that any bare wood in the chain locker area will have at least some moisture in it which makes oil based coatings problematic.  If your desire is to try and prevent the wood from rotting a good choice might be a Borate based solution such as Timbor.  Timbor comes in a powder form which you mix with plain water, it has low toxicity to humans and almost no odour.  It also kills bugs albeit slowly.   There is another mixture that uses ethelyne glycol and Borate which is more effective but I don't like the smell of glycol and it is quite poisonous to humans and pets.  Linseed oil will turn black quickly in such a humid environment and I have serious doubts about it being a preservative.  Some of the older copper based preservatives were reasonably effective for a surface treatment but the penetration is poor.  The Borate on the other hand will over time will work it's way completely through the wood.   The best place to apply the solution is to the edge end grain of the plywood if you can get in there with a spray bottle or something.

  If you can find a way to keep the humidity down in the locker, it will certainly extend the life of the plywood with or without a treatment.

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220



Sent from Samsung tablet.

-------- Original message --------
From: "'dancarlson367@...' dancarlson367@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 10/12/17 15:12 (GMT+01:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

 

Has anyone used linseed oil or other wood preservative to treat their exposed wood above the chain locker?  


I inspected my wood on BeBe, SM387, before leaving for the summer and have it on my list to apply something protective when I return.

Dan Carlson


 

Bill, I had the same problem a few years ago. I cut the floors out leaving about an inch of tabbing all the way around. Then cut another piece of plywood to fit , resting on the tabbing. I epoxied the bottom of the plywood first , then installed it and glassed it into place . I glassed the entire surface , rather than simply painting it. It was nice meeting you in Annapolis.

Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Wed, Oct 11, 2017 11:59 pm
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

 
The plywood soles of Harmonie's bow lockers are seriously rotten.  I was kind of surprised to see that the bottoms of these plywood sheets (i.e., the top of the chain locker) were "naked", without fiberglass sheathing.  I suspect exposure to the constant damp of the chain locker for 20 years was the start of the problem.

Replacement seems to be a fairly straight forward, fiberglass project, but if anyone else has had this problem and has any hints or "gothcha's" to watch for, I'd love to hear them!

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD




greatketch@...
 

Hi Pat,

Thanks Pat!  That was pretty much my plan.  Use the existing fiberglass tabbing as my support shelf.  No need to remake the support structure!

Glass the bottom of the shelf before it goes in (when it is easy!) to avoid a repeat of the problem.

Set the wood just a bit back from the hull so it doesn't make a "hard spot".

A couple layers of glass on the top tabbed to the hull.

Add a drain hole, and done.

I might add two drains, outboard on each side so it drains better.  We get a fair amount of water accumulating in here from the anchor snubber, wet ballonnor, etc.

Bill Kinney
SM160,  Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD


---In amelyachtowners@..., <sailw32@...> wrote :

Bill, I had the same problem a few years ago. I cut the floors out leaving about an inch of tabbing all the way around. Then cut another piece of plywood to fit , resting on the tabbing. I epoxied the bottom of the plywood first , then installed it and glassed it into place . I glassed the entire surface , rather than simply painting it. It was nice meeting you in Annapolis.
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Wed, Oct 11, 2017 11:59 pm
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

 
The plywood soles of Harmonie's bow lockers are seriously rotten.  I was kind of surprised to see that the bottoms of these plywood sheets (i.e., the top of the chain locker) were "naked", without fiberglass sheathing.  I suspect exposure to the constant damp of the chain locker for 20 years was the start of the problem.

Replacement seems to be a fairly straight forward, fiberglass project, but if anyone else has had this problem and has any hints or "gothcha's" to watch for, I'd love to hear them!

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD




greatketch@...
 

James,

Thanks for the advice. 

I have always used epoxy for repair projects.  It has better adhesion to most things and I have always felt a bit more "in control" with it.  I try to get each coat or layer added after the previous one has gelled, but before it has cured hard, to get the best bond between them.

For structural plywood I have usually used okoume plywood in the past, and it has done well for me.  I am a bit of a weight nazi on the boat, so a solid glass panel in the bow is not in my plans... but I am not so hard nosed about it that I feel I need to go with a foam core panel either.  Plywood seems the good compromise balancing weight/cost/ease of work.  I am comfortable that I can seal it well enough that it will last at least another 20 years!

Our anchor rode is all chain, so it doesn't carry a huge amount of water below, and I am pretty sure laying the chain out on deck to dry before stowing would cause more wear and tear on deck than I would save in the locker.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD


---In amelyachtowners@..., <lokiyawl2@...> wrote :

Bill,

   I inspected a 1984 Maramu which also had rotten panels in the bow locker.  The bottom of the panel forming the floor of the two side lockers was not glassed on the bottom of that boat.  The bottom of the same panel on my boat is glassed over and seems fine.  If you go back with plywood,  I would strongly suggest using a panel with a Loyds stamp to insure that the adhesive used passes the boiling water test to insure that you will not have delamination of the plies.  I would also select a wood species in the durable category to reduce the chance of rot.  The Sapele has held up pretty well for me.  Using epoxy resin will do a much better job of sealing the wood against moisture than polyester.  I have had good luck with the West System Epoxy which was developed for cold moulded boat construction and has been proven effective over decades of use.  Just be sure to remove the amine blush between coats or layers.  I am sure that there are other good epoxies out there, I just have not used many others.  If you start with epoxy, also use it to bond in the panels since polyester does not bond well to epoxy. You might also want to consider using a panel cored with a non cellulose based material or if you can stand the weight go with a solid glass panel.     On my boat, I pull out the anchor rode,  rinse and dry on deck whenever possible.  I also wash out the anchor locker and usually keep the access door to the anchor locker partially or fully open to vent.  Anything that you can do to keep the humidity level down is helpful. Wood is a good choice for the core as it is stiff for it's weight.  Wood will last essentially forever it you can just keep it dry.  Wood is used to form the internal structure of our boats so the same concerns about moisture apply.  The bilge area under the forward head is another area that I am very careful to keep perfectly dry since it is a very structurally important part of the hull.  Best of luck with the repairs.

James Alton SV Sueno
Maramu #220




greatketch@...
 

Craig,

That's a great idea!  I wish it was that easy for me.  On my SM the aft bulkhead of the chain locker is the forward bulkhead of lockers in the forward cabin.  The only access into the chain locker is through those lockers.  Venting the chain locker would involve emptying that locker and leaving it open in.  

You have me thinking now....  a largeish deck hatch installed in the locker sole might add a lot of access to the chain locker without compromising watertight integrity of the chain locker...  

Bill Kinney
SM160,  Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD


---In amelyachtowners@..., <sangaris@...> wrote :

I've clipped James' reply just to highlight the venting aspect. I had a louver made (matching the interior wood) for the forward bulkhead chain locker access panel. I keep in place instead of the solid panel unless making an offshore passage,  when I simply put switch it back to the solid panel.. 
Would suggest, when repairing the bow locker floor panels, that you include a lift out access panel in the middle so you can easily rinse out the chain locker periodically.
Craig Briggs, SN68 Sangaris


---In amelyachtowners@..., <lokiyawl2@...> wrote :

Bill,

   I inspected a 1984 Maramu which also had rotten panels in the bow locker.  .....     On my boat, I pull out the anchor rode,  rinse and dry on deck whenever possible.  I also wash out the anchor locker and usually keep the access door to the anchor locker partially or fully open to vent.  Anything that you can do to keep the humidity level down is helpful............ Best of luck with the repairs.

James Alton SV Sueno
Maramu #220



James Alton
 

Bill,

   Okoume plywood is great stuff for interior work.  Light stiff and strong, I have used quite a lot of it over the years.  You might however want to search on Okoume and durability before you select it for a wet location like the anchor locker.  I believe that it is rated non-durable and I have unfortunately had to also remove quite a bit of it when rotten.  Regardless, if well sealed it could last for a long time.  The balsa core in our decks is rated as perishable but also can last a very long time when kept dry.  Best of luck with your repairs.

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220



Sent from Samsung tablet.

-------- Original message --------
From: "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 10/12/17 16:22 (GMT+01:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

 

James,


Thanks for the advice. 

I have always used epoxy for repair projects.  It has better adhesion to most things and I have always felt a bit more "in control" with it.  I try to get each coat or layer added after the previous one has gelled, but before it has cured hard, to get the best bond between them.

For structural plywood I have usually used okoume plywood in the past, and it has done well for me.  I am a bit of a weight nazi on the boat, so a solid glass panel in the bow is not in my plans... but I am not so hard nosed about it that I feel I need to go with a foam core panel either.  Plywood seems the good compromise balancing weight/cost/ease of work.  I am comfortable that I can seal it well enough that it will last at least another 20 years!

Our anchor rode is all chain, so it doesn't carry a huge amount of water belo w, and I am pretty sure laying the chain out on deck to dry before stowing would cause more wear and tear on deck than I would save in the locker.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD


---In amelyachtowners@..., <lokiyawl2@...> wrote :

Bill,

   I inspected a 1984 Maramu which also had rotten panels in the bow locker.  The bottom of the panel forming the floor of the two side lockers was not glassed on the bottom of that boat.  The bottom of the same panel on my boat is glassed over and seems fine.  If you go back with plywood,  I would strongly suggest using a panel with a Loyds stamp to insure that the adhesive used passes the boiling water test to insure that you will not have delamination of the plies.  I would also select a wood species in the durable category to reduce the chance of rot.  The Sapele has held up pretty well for me.  Using epoxy resin will do a much better job of sealing the wood against moisture than polyester.  I have had good luck with the West System Epoxy which was developed for cold moulded boat construction and has been proven effective over decades of use.  Just be sure to remove the amine blush between coats or layers.  I am sure that there are other good epoxies out there, I just have not used many others.  If you start with epoxy, also use it to bond in the panels since polyester does not bond well to epoxy. You might also want to consider using a panel cored with a non cellulose based material or if you can stand the weight go with a solid glass panel.     On my boat, I pull out the anchor rode,  rinse and dry on deck whenever possible.  I also wash out the anchor locker and usually keep the access door to the anchor locker partially or fully open to vent.  Anything that you can do to keep the humidity level down is helpful. Wood is a good choice for the core as it is stiff for it's weight.  Wood will last essentially forever it you can just keep it dry.  Wood is used to form the internal structure of our boats so the same concerns about moisture apply.  The bilge area under the forward head is another area that I am very careful to keep perfectly dry since it is a very structurally important part of the hull.  Best of luck with the repairs.

James Alton SV Sueno
Maramu #220




Craig Briggs
 

Hi Bill,
I didn't realize the SM's chain locker access panel was inside a cabinet, unlike the SN's which is exposed to the forward cabin right next to the bow thruster alcove. Wonder if you could vent the chain locker with a louver in the bow thruster alcove that you'd cover solidly offshore?

Interesting thought on using a deck hatch on the sole of the forward deck locker(s). I wonder how important, though, it is to keep the top deck locker area and bottom chain locker areas independently water tight. If the hull were broached down low, I suspect the added volume of water in the upper areas, were they both to flood, would not be significant - mine are already chock-a-block full of fenders, rodes, etc, such that I doubt I could squeeze in more than a pint :-).  Keeping them water tight, is, of course, more bullet-proof.
 
Cheers, Craig


---In amelyachtowners@..., <greatketch@...> wrote :

Craig,

That's a great idea!  I wish it was that easy for me.  On my SM the aft bulkhead of the chain locker is the forward bulkhead of lockers in the forward cabin.  The only access into the chain locker is through those lockers.  Venting the chain locker would involve emptying that locker and leaving it open in.  

You have me thinking now....  a largeish deck hatch installed in the locker sole might add a lot of access to the chain locker without compromising watertight integrity of the chain locker...  

Bill Kinney
SM160,  Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD


---In amelyachtowners@..., <sangaris@...> wrote :

I've clipped James' reply just to highlight the venting aspect. I had a louver made (matching the interior wood) for the forward bulkhead chain locker access panel. I keep in place instead of the solid panel unless making an offshore passage,  when I simply put switch it back to the solid panel.. 
Would suggest, when repairing the bow locker floor panels, that you include a lift out access panel in the middle so you can easily rinse out the chain locker periodically.
Craig Briggs, SN68 Sangaris


---In amelyachtowners@..., <lokiyawl2@...> wrote :

Bill,

   I inspected a 1984 Maramu which also had rotten panels in the bow locker.  .....     On my boat, I pull out the anchor rode,  rinse and dry on deck whenever possible.  I also wash out the anchor locker and usually keep the access door to the anchor locker partially or fully open to vent.  Anything that you can do to keep the humidity level down is helpful............ Best of luck with the repairs.

James Alton SV Sueno
Maramu #220



James Alton
 

Bill,

   The better access via a hatch sounds like an interesting idea.  For venting, I have been considering adding a 3-4" diameter pc. Of fiberglass exhaust tube running from the top of the anchor locker to the deck line.  The tubing would be cut in half so that it would lay flat on the bulkhead and would be glassed over.  A hole would be cut through the interior bulkhead  and a low power muffin fan installed to push fresh air in.  The only current air exit would be the chain hole in the windlass so It would not be a lot of flow but compared to dead still air with no venting I am thinking it might help a lot.  Since the fan hole would be right at the very top of the side locker, I don't think the function of the watertight bulkhead would be compromised.  Pushing the air into the locker should keep the dampness and smells from the anchor locker out of the boat.  

James Alton
SV Sueno,  Maramu #220


Sent from Samsung tablet.

-------- Original message --------
From: "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 10/12/17 16:31 (GMT+01:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Bow locker bottoms...

 

Craig,


That's a great idea!  I wish it was that easy for me.  On my SM the aft bulkhead of the chain locker is the forward bulkhead of lockers in the forward cabin.  The only access into the chain locker is through those lockers.  Venting the chain locker would involve emptying that locker and leaving it open in.  

You have me thinking now....  a largeish deck hatch installed in the locker sole might add a lot of access to the chain locker without compromising watertight integrity of the chain locker...  

Bill Kinney
SM160,  Harmonie
Back Creek, Annapolis, MD


---In amelyachtowners@..., <sangaris@...> wrote :

I've clipped James' reply just to highlight the venting aspect. I had a louver made (mat ching the interior wood) for the forward bulkhead chain locker access panel. I keep in place instead of the solid panel unless making an offshore passage,  when I simply put switch it back to the solid panel.. 
Would suggest, when repairing the bow locker floor panels, that you include a lift out access panel in the middle so you can easily rinse out the chain locker periodically.
Craig Briggs, SN68 Sangaris


---In amelyachtowners@..., <lokiyawl2@...> wrote :

Bill,

   I inspected a 1984 Maramu which also had rotten panels in the bow locker.  .....     On my boat, I pull out the anchor rode,  rinse and dry on deck whenever possible.  I also wash out the anchor locker and usually keep the access door to the anchor locke r partially or fully open to vent.  Anything that you can do to keep the humidity level down is helpful............ Best of luck with the repairs.

James Alton SV Sueno
Maramu #220