[Amel Yacht Owners] Diaphragm Bilge Pump failure.


James Alton
 

Bill Kinney,

  Thanks for giving your opinion on sizing bilge pumps, along with the list of pumps that you carry.   I really like the idea of doing some testing to get some real world data before considering making any changes.

  I am curious about the Rule 4000 centrifugal pump since according to the flow chart it is supposed to be able to lift as high as 27 ft. which I think is almost 12 psi?  The pump also has a 2” discharge.  http://www.strongmanpumps.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Rule-Pump-Performance-Chart.jpg 

   My interest in this pump would be for dewatering and if installed it would be mounted well above the bottom of the sump and hopefully would never get wet.   When time permits,  I will do some of my own testing to simulate an installation in my Maramu with one of the 4000 GPH Rule pumps and will post what I find out.  I would like to see a number above 30 GPM..we will see.
 
I am aware that the centrifugal pumps are rated at 0 head and with no hose and agree that this has no bearing on real life conditions.  

One other factor that I have found which can greatly reduce the discharge of a pump more than expected is the type of house being used.  The type that is heavily corrugated internally appears to reduce the flow by about half (visual observation of the stream as opposed to actual measurement)  as compared to a smooth bore hose of similar diameter. 

  Assuming you are in Florida. I have a 12V Sealand T2 pump at my shop which is also in Florida that I would be glad to ship to you and cover the shipping on both ways if you would like to do a capacity test?  I have not checked to see if the 12V version of this pump has different specs. than the 24V?

James

SV Sueno,  Maramu #220


     

On Dec 2, 2017, at 1:58 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


I had a boss once whose favorite line was, "Show me the data." I learned a lot from him...  

Ratings are all fine and good, but the real world can always change things. So I just timed how long it took my Amel original diaphragm pump to move 12 liters of water: 42 seconds. A flow rate of: 17 liters per minute (or 4.5GPM)  I have read the "32 l/min" number several times, but don't know its original source.

Whenever I see someone write down a number and proclaim that "this is the minimum capacity for a bilge pump for this boat" I wonder how they came up with that number.  

I think of bilge pumps in two categories:  Dewatering and emergency.  

Dewatering is just the normal day to day emptying of the bilge.  On most boats that would include shaft drip, rain water leaks, etc.  We don't have those, so for us it is just the routine emptying of gray water from the sump.   The primary pump selection issue here is not about capacity, but rather picking a pump that will not choke on any lumpy bits from the galley sink.  Given that requirement, we do not have a lot of options. 

An emergency bilge pump is another matter. Any hole in the hull below the water line will overwhelm most bilge pumps.  8gpm is a good number for a 1/2 inch hole, and the flow rate rises with the square of the diameter... so a 1 inch hole would be 24gpm, and a 2 inch hole pushes 100gpm.  That's a LOT.

A boat like an Amel with watertight bulkheads has an extra issue.  Any hole outside the engine room can not drain to the bilge anywhere near as fast as water comes in from the ocean.  So the size of the pump in the sump doesn't matter.

My own personnel takeaway is that a bilge pump that could actually keep up with a significant hole in the boat (on an Amel, maybe a broken engine raw water hose?) is larger than any recommendation I have seen, and borders on impractical.  If you have a hole in the boat too big to plug with your thumb, and you can't stop it, you are sinking--eventually. (Watertight bulkheads aside, of course!)

Ratings on centrifugal bilge pumps are a pretty sad joke. They are all rated at Zero head, and that's just plain goofy. Most of them don't even supply a curve of output flow vs head, and even if they did most people would not know how to interpret it ("pressure head" is much more complex than just discharge height.)  In a real world installation you'd be very lucky to get even 1/4 of the flow rate listed on the box.

All that is a very long winded way of saying... With all the variables and considerations I don't pretend to know what a "proper" capacity is. I do not even know what kind of logical criteria one would use to set one.  I have seen many "authorities" and committees proclaim a number, but their logic is either (arguably) flawed or not specified.

On Harmonie we have: 
  • The standard Amel installed diaphragm bilge pump,  
  • A bilge level alarm,
  • An identical spare electric pump ready to plug in as a replacement if needed, 
  • The Amel installed manual bilge pump, 
  • And a portable manual bilge pump for really serious emergencies.  
I'm comfortable with that list.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL







---In amelyachtowners@..., <lokiyawl2@...> wrote :

Bill,

   Thanks for the confirmation on the duckbills being nitrile in the Sealand pump.  I suspect that this pump would be great for pumping the sump.   What is you opinion about the capacity of this pump in regards to being the sole electric bilge pump aboard?   I am used to installing centrifugal pumps in boats this size with ratings 10X higher.  I think something as small as a 1/2” hole 4’ below the WL would flow almost 8 GPM….

James

Maramu #220 

On Dec 1, 2017, at 10:58 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

The only rubber in the T-series pumps in contact with pumped water are the joker valves.  


The sealand joker valves (they call them "duckbill valves") are made of nitrile rubber, which is good for oil contact.





greatketch@...
 

James,

Your offer of testing a Sealand pump in an Amel bilge is fun and fascinating. Unfortunetly we'll be headed to the Bahamas before such fun could be had!

Yes, the Rule can pump 27 feet up, but at zero flow rate.  Also, the head required to actually move water is more than just the lift height.  The piping resistance is the larger and usually more significant contributor.  

(Note, I am a chemical engineer, and for a time pumps and pump selection was an important part of my world.  So I'll likely subject the good members of this forum to way more detail than they need...)

I did a quick and dirty calculation of flow rate for the following system:

10 feet of smooth bore 1.5" hose, two elbows, a total of 4 feet of vertical lift. I calculate such a system would require a pump discharge head of about 6.7 feet at 1000GPH.  Pretty close to a Rule 4000 pump curve.  (Details available on request for you masochists out there...)  2 inch hose would be better, but you get the idea...


Bill Kinney
SM160,  Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL


James Alton
 

Bill,
  Have a great time in the Bahamas.  We have spent quite a bit of time over there on various boats over the years.
  What a great resource you are.  It will be intersting to compare the actual test data to the predictions.  If I decide to add this pump, I think that I can get by with only 6-7' of piping which would be 2" smooth bore fiberglass piping with a length of hose to connect the pump to the piping.  No elbows but some gentle bends. Can you tell me the losses to expect in a vented loop?   This would also be fiberglass pipe so I can make the radius the optinum curve.  I assume that some energy is returned as the fluid is falling from the vent to the discharge but have no idea of how to calculate that part.  The 4 foot actual lift might be 3 1/2' but the vented loop may add another foot?
  The Seland pump can be an ongoing offer and maybe if you want I will also send down the 4000 pump for you to test as well if it is of interest.

James
SV Sueno, Maramu #220


Sent from Samsung Mobile



-------- Original message --------
From: "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Date: 12-03-2017 12:02 PM (GMT-04:00)
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Diaphragm Bilge Pump failure.


 

James,


Your offer of testing a Sealand pump in an Amel bilge is fun and fascinating. Unfortunetly we'll be headed to the Bahamas before such fun could be had!

Yes, the Rule can pump 27 feet up, but at zero flow rate.  Also, the head required to actually move water is more than just the lift height.  The piping resistance is the larger and usually more significant contributor.  

(Note, I am a chemical engineer, and for a time pumps and pump selection was an important part of my world.  So I'll likely subject the good members of this forum to way more detail than they need...)

I did a quick and dirty calculation of flow rate for the following system:

10 feet of smooth bore 1.5" hose, two elbows, a total of 4 feet of vertical lift. I calculate such a system would require a pump discharge head of about 6.7 feet at 10 00GPH.  Pretty close to a Rule 4000 pump curve.  (Details available on request for you masochists out there...)  2 inch hose would be better, but you get the idea...


Bill Kinney
SM160,  Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL


greatketch@...
 


James,

We went through the Bahamas last year and had a great time.  There are places we want to visit again and new places to see.  So far our favorite stop has been the more remote island of Mayaguana.

A vented loop shouldn't add much resistance, it's pretty straight through, I think your guess of a foot of head is a good one.    Putting in a vent and breaking the syphon action does eliminate the "credit" you get for the down slope of the piping past that point.   So you have to count the static head up to the vent, and then not subtract the reduced height to the discharge.

Not sharpening my pencil too much, but with 2 in ID smooth bore pipe or hose, and that pump I'd expect between 1500 and 2000GPH in the system you describe.  Getting a better estimate than that is probably beyond the precision of the data we have available.

FYI, To measure the flow from my bilge pump, I ran the pump until it first sucked air and turned it off.  I then added a measured amount of water (12 liters) to the sump, and then ran it again until it sucked air and called that the time to discharge 12 liters.



---In amelyachtowners@..., <lokiyawl2@...> wrote :

Bill,
  Have a great time in the Bahamas.  We have spent quite a bit of time over there on various boats over the years.
  What a great resource you are.  It will be intersting to compare the actual test data to the predictions.  If I decide to add this pump, I think that I can get by with only 6-7' of piping which would be 2" smooth bore fiberglass piping with a length of hose to connect the pump to the piping.  No elbows but some gentle bends. Can you tell me the losses to expect in a vented loop?   This would also be fiberglass pipe so I can make the radius the optinum curve.  I assume that some energy is returned as the fluid is falling from the vent to the discharge but have no idea of how to calculate that part.  The 4 foot actual lift might be 3 1/2' but the vented loop may add another foot?
  The Seland pump can be an ongoing offer and maybe if you want I will also send down the 4000 pump for you to test as well if it is of interest.

James
SV Sueno, Maramu #220