Inverter/Charger wiring advise


John Clark
 

Hi All,

  I am installing a “whole house” inverter/charger, a MagnaSine 4124 (230v/50hz.)

I explained to the vendor, Inverter Service Center in Tennessee , how the Amel electrical system has a floating DC negative and separate ground/earth/bonding connection.  He recommended this unit specifically for the boat because it is a native 230v/50hz not a US 240v/60hz unit tweaked to produce 50hz.  The grounding/neutral setup is apparently incompatible in those North American units.  

 

The Magna has an automatic transfer switch that will select incoming AC power or inverter output, incoming power preferred.   Both the hot and neutral AC lines are switched.   When it selects the inverter for AC output, the AC neutral is connected to chassis ground/earth by a “system bonding jumper” which I unplugged per instructions to keep the bonding separate from the neutral. 

 

I double checked the unit after unpacking and there is no continuity between the chassis ground/earth and the DC negative, and also  after unplugging the “system bonding jumper” there is no continuity to the ground from the inverter AC neutrals.  I intend to connect the chassis ground/earth to the Amel bonding system and leave the DC negative floating.

 

I intend to mount the unit next to the Dolphin charger on the port side of the engine room.  This is where the old HVAC compressor sat and is close to the main battery disconnect bus work.  The DC cable run should be less than one meter.  

 

Attached is a picture of my proposed wiring.  Is this how the unit should interact with the Amel bonding system?

 

Green is the Amel bonding system as it is wired on my boat and how I intend to connect the new inverter/charger. 

 

Pink is the location of circuit breakers.

 

I currently have two battery chargers powered from the 230V distribution panel, a 30A Dolphin, and a 40 A Mastervolt.  These were installed by previous owner.  

 

The AC panel is powered through a 40amp breaker and an automatic transfer switch which chooses between the 7KW Onan Generator or shore power.  Generator is preferred. Generator has a 30A AC breaker.  All as was installed by previous owner.

 

Inside the AC panel the bonding/earth connections (green/yellow wires) have no conductivity to the AC hot(brown) or AC neutral(blue).

 

There is a 600 watt inverter installed under the nav station that powers a portable 230v/50hz power strip.  No part of this unit is connected to the Amel bonding system.  Again all previous owner installation.

 

We have had no issues to date with galvanic corrosion.  We replaced rudder anodes in Charleston in August and they still look new.

 

And all this work is so we can make popcorn in the microwave underway.


Regards,  John


John Clark

SV Annie  SM37

St. Augustine FL......awaiting new microwave....



mfmcgovern@...
 

John,

I do not see any attached wiring diagram and I did not see anything in the Photo section either.  However, that might just be me!  Check that you attached the wiring diagram be sure.

That said, it sure sounds like you are on the right track.  Popcorn underway sounds like a noble pursuit!

Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA...freezing our a$$es off...


John Clark
 

Hi Mark,  Yes Yahoo is sometimes funny about the attachments.  Let's try again. Well it looks like it loaded but then gives an error message.  I will try to send to photos section after typing.  See photo called "
Magna Wiring"


 Also I posted the same pic on the Amel FB group.


greatketch@...
 

John,

Popcorn can be important!

Your confirmation that the inverter does not cross-connect the DC negative and the AC safety ground is key. Such a cross connection would destroy the "floating" part of the Amel DC Floating Negative.

On the other hand, I am wondering why you feel the need to remove the connection between  AC Neutral and the AC Safety Ground at the inverter?

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas


---In amelyachtowners@..., <mfmcgovern@...> wrote :

John,

I do not see any attached wiring diagram and I did not see anything in the Photo section either.  However, that might just be me!  Check that you attached the wiring diagram be sure.

That said, it sure sounds like you are on the right track.  Popcorn underway sounds like a noble pursuit!

Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA...freezing our a$$es off...


John Clark
 

Hi Bill,
   I plan to connect the chassis of the inverter to the Amel green/yellow bonding system. The inverter connects the AC neutral to the chassis ground when in inverter mode.  Would that not allow stray current through the Amel bonding system and therefore other water exposed metal?


When I examined the existing AC distribution system I found the Amel bonding to be isolated from the neutral(blue wires).  Is that how it is supposed to be?

John


greatketch@...
 

John,

If you are not sure about the status of the AC Safety Ground, you really should have a qualified electrician review your plans. What I write below is based on what I think is a good understanding of the matter, but I wouldn't want to risk your life on it...

AC Currents are (almost) never the source of stray current corrosion. To be sure, AC wiring CAN carry DC currents that can be serious sources of stray currents.  This is why AMEL separated the DC Negative from the AC Safety Ground and Bonding system.

A couple things about the AC Safety Ground.  It is normally connected to the AC Neutral only at the source of power. This is done so it can provide a low resistance path to carry any leakage current back to the source of power and safely away from people.

When your source of power is shore power the AC Safety Ground and the AC Neutral are connected only on shore, never on the boat.  A boat that has no isolation transformer, nor inverter, nor generator would never have the Neutral and Safety Ground connected together on the boat.

If your source of shore power comes into the boat through an isolation transformer, the transformer becomes the "source of power" and the AC Safety Ground and Neutral are connected together there.  

When the generator is running, it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral together inside the generator.

Same with an inverter.  When it has an external source of power, it passes the AC Safety Ground on through.  When it turns on and becomes the "source of the power" it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral so any leakage from the Hot wire has a way to get back to the source of power without going through people.

The inverter case is connected to the AC Safety Ground in the event of a inadvertent connection between the Hot wire and the case so that voltage can be drawn off before it becomes dangerous to people.

Without a connection back to the inverter when the inverter is the source of power, the AC Safety Ground becomes worse than useless.  If there was an insulation fault that connected the Hot wire to the case of, for example, your microwave, the AC Safety Ground would not be able to drain off that voltage because it could not supply a path for the current back to the source.  In that case the entire bonding system would become charged to the same voltage as the Hot wire with no way for the current to get back to the inverter. Now to put this in perspective, it is very unlikely on the boat that you could find a way to complete that circuit with your body...  but "very unlikely" is not the same as "not possible."


Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas.


John Clark
 

John,

 

If you are not sure about the status of the AC Safety Ground, you really should have a qualified electrician review your plans. What I write below is based on what I think is a good understanding of the matter, but I wouldn't want to risk your life on it...

UNDERSTOOD  ;)

 

AC Currents are (almost) never the source of stray current corrosion. To be sure, AC wiring CAN carry DC currents that can be serious sources of stray currents.  This is why AMEL separated the DC Negative from the AC Safety Ground and Bonding system.

RIGHT SO ANY FAULTS IN THE INVERTER, OR DOWNSTREAM EQUIMENT THAT RESUTS IN A DC VOLTAGE OVERLAID ON THE AC WIRING COULD AND WOULD CONTRIBUTE TO A STRAY CURRENT THROUGH THE BONDING SYSTEM...

 

A couple things about the AC Safety Ground.  It is normally connected to the AC Neutral only at the source of power. This is done so it can provide a low resistance path to carry any leakage current back to the source of power and safely away from people.

SO THE AC SAFETY GROUND ON THE SP CABLE IS CONNECTED TO THE AMEL BONDING SYSTEM. 

 

 

When your source of power is shore power the AC Safety Ground and the AC Neutral are connected only on shore, never on the boat.  A boat that has no isolation transformer, nor inverter, nor generator would never have the Neutral and Safety Ground connected together on the boat.  AGREED.

 

If your source of shore power comes into the boat through an isolation transformer, the transformer becomes the "source of power" and the AC Safety Ground and Neutral are connected together there.  

 

When the generator is running, it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral together inside the generator.  RIGHT AND NOW THAT YOU REMIND ME I NEED TO VERIFY THE CONDUCTIVITY BETWEEN THE AC NEUTRAL (BLUE) AND AMEL BONDING (GREEN/YELLOW) WHILE THE GENERTOR IS RUNNING.  WHEN OFF THE TRANSFER SWITCH REVERTS TO SP.  SO WHEN I CHECKED IT I WAS READING RESISTANCE OF THE SP CABLE  UNPLUGGED. 

 

Same with an inverter.  When it has an external source of power, it passes the AC Safety Ground on through.  When it turns on and becomes the "source of the power" it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral so any leakage from the Hot wire has a way to get back to the source of power without going through people.  RIGHT THAT IS EXACTLY HOW THE DEVICE IS CONFIGURED, BUT IT HAS A DISCONNECT TO NOT CONNECT THE CHASSIS GROUND(SAFETY-GROUND/AMEL BONDING) TO THE NEUTRAL.   I WILL CHECK AGAN WHAT THE GENERATOR DOES WHEN ACTIVE.   

 

ONE THOUGHT I HAVE IT THAT THE GENERATOR IS NOT ACTIVE VERY MUCH HOWEVER, THE INVERTER WILL BE POWERED MOST OF THE TIME.  IS THE LENGTH OF TIME THE CONNECTION IS MADE A FACTOR TO CONSIDER?  

 

The inverter case is connected to the AC Safety Ground in the event of a inadvertent connection between the Hot wire and the case so that voltage can be drawn off before it becomes dangerous to people.

 

 

Without a connection back to the inverter when the inverter is the source of power, the AC Safety Ground becomes worse than useless.  If there was an insulation fault that connected the Hot wire to the case of, for example, your microwave, the AC Safety Ground would not be able to drain off that voltage because it could not supply a path for the current back to the source.  In that case the entire bonding system would become charged to the same voltage as the Hot wire with no way for the current to get back to the inverter. Now to put this in perspective, it is very unlikely on the boat that you could find a way to complete that circuit with your body...  but "very unlikely" is not the same as "not possible."

 

UNDERSTOOD.  ONE OF THE DOWNFALLS OF ISOLATING NOT CONNECTING IT.  ON US SUBMARINES WE HAD A SIMILAR SETUP FOR THREE PHASE AC WITH NO GROUND.  POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS TO CREW BUT MORE RESILIENT TO DAMAGE AND ALLOWED CONTINUED OPERATION DOWNSTREAM.  NOT QUITE THE PURPOSE FOR OUR BOATS. 

 

I CERTAINLY INTEND TO THINK A BIT ON THE SET UP BEFORE IMPLEMENTING.  


greatketch@...
 


This is a bit confusing...  but I added my second level comments in italics....


---In amelyachtowners@..., <john.biohead@...> wrote :

AC Currents are (almost) never the source of stray current corrosion. To be sure, AC wiring CAN carry DC currents that can be serious sources of stray currents.  This is why AMEL separated the DC Negative from the AC Safety Ground and Bonding system.

RIGHT SO ANY FAULTS IN THE INVERTER, OR DOWNSTREAM EQUIMENT THAT RESUTS IN A DC VOLTAGE OVERLAID ON THE AC WIRING COULD AND WOULD CONTRIBUTE TO A STRAY CURRENT THROUGH THE BONDING SYSTEM...


As with many things with electrics and water... it's complicated.  If such a fault occured, it would show up as a voltage on the bonding system.  Amel's decision to avoid connecting the DC negative with the bonding system is not without its own problems. There is no free lunch...


A couple things about the AC Safety Ground.  It is normally connected to the AC Neutral only at the source of power. This is done so it can provide a low resistance path to carry any leakage current back to the source of power and safely away from people.

SO THE AC SAFETY GROUND ON THE SP CABLE IS CONNECTED TO THE AMEL BONDING SYSTEM. 


Yes.

 

When the generator is running, it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral together inside the generator.  RIGHT AND NOW THAT YOU REMIND ME I NEED TO VERIFY THE CONDUCTIVITY BETWEEN THE AC NEUTRAL (BLUE) AND AMEL BONDING (GREEN/YELLOW) WHILE THE GENERTOR IS RUNNING.  WHEN OFF THE TRANSFER SWITCH REVERTS TO SP.  SO WHEN I CHECKED IT I WAS READING RESISTANCE OF THE SP CABLE  UNPLUGGED. 


It can be a little tough to measure by resistance, since you have to measure with the generator running, and small voltages can make the ohm-meter nuts. I checked voltage readings with the generator running between hot and neutral (220V) and between Hot and Safety Ground (220V) and then between Neutral and Safety Ground (~0V) which is what I'd expect.


Same with an inverter.  When it has an external source of power, it passes the AC Safety Ground on through.  When it turns on and becomes the "source of the power" it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral so any leakage from the Hot wire has a way to get back to the source of power without going through people.  RIGHT THAT IS EXACTLY HOW THE DEVICE IS CONFIGURED, BUT IT HAS A DISCONNECT TO NOT CONNECT THE CHASSIS GROUND(SAFETY-GROUND/AMEL BONDING) TO THE NEUTRAL.   I WILL CHECK AGAN WHAT THE GENERATOR DOES WHEN ACTIVE.   

 

ONE THOUGHT I HAVE IT THAT THE GENERATOR IS NOT ACTIVE VERY MUCH HOWEVER, THE INVERTER WILL BE POWERED MOST OF THE TIME.  IS THE LENGTH OF TIME THE CONNECTION IS MADE A FACTOR TO CONSIDER?  


I don't see where the time would matter much, it's more a safety issue.


Without a connection back to the inverter when the inverter is the source of power, the AC Safety Ground becomes worse than useless.  If there was an insulation fault that connected the Hot wire to the case of, for example, your microwave, the AC Safety Ground would not be able to drain off that voltage because it could not supply a path for the current back to the source.  In that case the entire bonding system would become charged to the same voltage as the Hot wire with no way for the current to get back to the inverter. Now to put this in perspective, it is very unlikely on the boat that you could find a way to complete that circuit with your body...  but "very unlikely" is not the same as "not possible."

 

UNDERSTOOD.  ONE OF THE DOWNFALLS OF ISOLATING NOT CONNECTING IT.  ON US SUBMARINES WE HAD A SIMILAR SETUP FOR THREE PHASE AC WITH NO GROUND.  POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS TO CREW BUT MORE RESILIENT TO DAMAGE AND ALLOWED CONTINUED OPERATION DOWNSTREAM.  NOT QUITE THE PURPOSE FOR OUR BOATS. 


It's a fuzzy situation where it stops being "safe".  A lot of small inverters have no Safety Ground connection at all.  The expectation being that there is no easy way for a human to put themselves in between the hot and neutral parts of the circuit.  A very different situation than grid power, where the Ground (literally, the earth you stand on) is the return circuit, so any contact with the hot wire is a serious problem.

 

I CERTAINLY INTEND TO THINK A BIT ON THE SET UP BEFORE IMPLEMENTING.  


I don't think what you propose is terribly dangerous, but on the other hand I think it would do nothing to prevent corrosion issues. So any safety loss comes with out a gain.


John Clark
 

Yes I agree the thread was getting confusing.  I pasted the part I am focusing at the moment below:

 

Bill: When the generator is running, it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral together inside the generator. 

 

John:  RIGHT AND NOW THAT YOU REMIND ME I NEED TO VERIFY THE CONDUCTIVITY BETWEEN THE AC NEUTRAL (BLUE) AND AMEL BONDING (GREEN/YELLOW) WHILE THE GENERTOR IS RUNNING.  WHEN OFF THE TRANSFER SWITCH REVERTS TO SP.  SO WHEN I CHECKED IT I WAS READING RESISTANCE OF THE SP CABLE  UNPLUGGED. 

 

Bill: It can be a little tough to measure by resistance, since you have to measure with the generator running, and small voltages can make the ohm-meter nuts. I checked voltage readings with the generator running between hot and neutral (220V) and between Hot and Safety Ground (220V) and then between Neutral and Safety Ground (~0V) which is what I'd expect.

 

John: This morning I fired up the generator and checked the voltages, here is what I got with no loads energized:

 

Hot(brown) to neutral(blue)  226VAC  as expected

Hot(brown) to ground(green/yellow)  113vAC

Neutral(blue) to ground(green/yellow) 113vAC

 

My interpretation is the generator is internally wired internally as split phase(115/230) but connected to the boat only at the two hots(L1&L2 yielding 230) as in column C of the drawing attached below.  As far as the question, is it grounded, we cannot tell from voltage readings because we are just seeing the voltage across the working generator field windings.   I will have to open up the generator control head to see exactly how it is wired. 

 

I am not inclined at this point to tinker with the internal connections as the genset has been in service like this without issues for ten years.    My receipts indicate the unit was installed in France where the 230/50hz power scheme should be well understood.   

 

More cogitating.


John Clark
 

Bill, I just opened up the genset and found she is wired as in column "C" with T2 and T3 connected to ground.  I traced the ground strap to the frame of the genset and the Amel bonding system.  So you were correct that the generator is connected to ground.  

Based on this, I still want to think about it more, but it seems that it might be ok to connect the inverter neutral to the bonding system.  I think I read that the raw inverter output is passed first though an isolation transformer before leaving the unit.  If this is the case then a DC leakage current is unlikely....

Thanks for the brain help Bill!


greatketch@...
 

All properly designed marine battery chargers and inverters will use an isolation transformer to do the voltage step up/down.  This keeps the DC Negative separate from the AC Neutral.

A connection between AC Neutral and DC Negative from poorly designed equipment is potential corrosion problem on an Amel, and a serious disaster waiting to happen on any boat. If it is connected to a shore power plug that has reverse polarity (Hot and Neutral swapped) the entire DC system is now charged with AC Power. I am not sure what would go wrong first, but it wouldn't be pretty! If you haven't come across a marina with wiring like this, keep traveling, you eventually will!

It is always good to have to think about these things carefully enough to write them out... 

Bill Kinney
SM160 Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas