[Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise


John Clark
 

Thanks for the heads up Mark.  We will take a look at Browns before we head out.

On Jan 8, 2018 6:48 PM, "'Mark Erdos' mcerdos@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

John, ref: Bimini Big Game Marina – wouldn’t recommend it. It has gone way down-hill since Guy Harvey sold his interest in it, really not worth the money. I would suggest Browns. Easy in and out, not at all fancy but the price is right. You will find most cruisers stop at Browns. From Browns it is a 5 min walk to Immigration at BBGM and then Customs is a litter further up the road in the pink building (police station).

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Martinique

www.creampuff.us

 

From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, January 8, 2018 6:21 PM
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

 

 

Hi Bill,  we are planning  to leave St.. Augustine later this week and head to Bimini, then slow cruise thru Bahamas...continuing south.  

 

We are planning on checking in at Bimini Big Game Marina and staying for a day or two.

 

John

 

On Jan 8, 2018 12:24 PM, "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Colin,

 

We actually use the second battery charger much of the time when we are charging with the genset. Our new batteries can easily take over 100 amps of charging current for much of the charge cycle.  Adding another 50 amps to the 70 the Victron makes, just makes things faster.



Anything we can do to reduce the genset duty cycle make our lives more enjoyable and the boat more self-sufficient.



So far our solar installation, charger upgrade, and switching battery types has dropped us from about three hours a day, down to an average of a bit less than one hour a day, with many days of none at all. Which should drop even further as the sun returns to the northern hemisphere :)

 

Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

North Bimini, Bahamas

 

 



Colin - ex SV Island Pearl
 

Hi Bill

Good point, I have never tried running two at the same time. We have just taken our solar from 540w to 850w so bringing the genset runnning times down a fair bit. Yesterday, a nice sunny one here in Phuket we ran 3 loads of washing (full 1.5+ hrs cycle each) pretty much all afternoon just on solar via inverter, no generator or shore power.

Unfortunately our worst enemy is our own bad habits of preferring to use the electric kettle, electric toaster etc etc on board (just like at home) instead of gas so still doing one hour in morning and one hour late at night of genset. We have often left the boat for a week or more (even when cloudy) with one freezer and fridge running with the previous 540w. Going into the Indian Ocean now for 9 months, and needing to carry so much extra food, I am hoping to be able to do this with two freezers running, hence the increase to 840w. (Tried to fit 1kw but not enough space on our boat!). I should add we have 2 x latest generation Rutland 1200 wind generators and have seen 10amps x 26.4v on each of them sometimes in high winds, so they are absolutely a fantastic addition.

Never ending goal of trying to run the boat completely on nature! Unfortunately here in Asia there has been a high need to use the motor. Normally we sail everywhere so looking forward to getting into the Indian Ocean in the next 4 weeks.

Best regards

Colin
SV Island Pearl II, aMEL53 #332


On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 3:23 AM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Colin,


We actually use the second battery charger much of the time when we are charging with the genset. Our new batteries can easily take over 100 amps of charging current for much of the charge cycle.  Adding another 50 amps to the 70 the Victron makes, just makes things faster.

Anything we can do to reduce the genset duty cycle make our lives more enjoyable and the boat more self-sufficient.

So far our solar installation, charger upgrade, and switching battery types has dropped us from about three hours a day, down to an average of a bit less than one hour a day, with many days of none at all. Which should drop even further as the sun returns to the northern hemisphere :)

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas





--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445


Stephen Morrison <steve_morrison@...>
 

As a Bimini option I would throw out Bimini Sands on South Bimini. It was simple to get in and out, has nice floating docks, doesn’t have a tide running through it, and has a resident cluster of Bull Sharks that meander about as we discovered while our daughters were on their paddle boards. There is power and water at the dock and customs was a short taxi over to the airport and back. I think we paid 1.50/ft. 

Steve Morrison
SM380 TouRai
Hope Town, Abaco

On Jan 8, 2018, at 7:43 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

John,


We'll second the vote for Browns. The only downside is that right now they don't have shore power on the docks, so if that is important to you, Bimini Big Game might be the better choice.  They are working on it...on island time. Everything else is in very good shape. Bimini Big Game looks nice on a walk through, although this time of year (between fishing seasons) everything here is really quiet. Right now there are three boats in Brown's, maybe a half dozen in Bimini Big Game.  Might change for the weekend, there is a big wahoo fishing tournament.

If you do come to Brown's and you want the restaurants and bars at Bimini Big Game, they are just a short walk away.

We're pulling out of Brown's tomorrow, and anchoring in Nixons Harbor for a day or two, then heading up to Freeport, then to the Berry Islands... then south... Watch for us on AIS!

All the marinas here have a very strong tidal current that runs through more or less parallel to the slips, so be ready for it.  The entrance channel has plenty of water, and the buoys are in place and correctly mark the channel, although they don't match the chart exactly. Trust the buoys more than the chart. Except...there was one errant red nun that was sitting right on top of the sand bar that wasn't on the chart at all, and looked to have drifted in from somewhere else.

Enjoy!

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas

---In amelyachtowners@..., wrote :

John, ref: Bimini Big Game Marina – wouldn’t recommend it. It has gone way down-hill since Guy Harvey sold his interest in it, really not worth the money. I would suggest Browns. Easy in and out, not at all fancy but the price is right. You will find most cruisers stop at Browns. From Browns it is a 5 min walk to Immigration at BBGM and then Customs is a litter further up the road in the pink building (police station).

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Martinique

www.creampuff.us

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Monday, January 8, 2018 6:21 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

 

 

Hi Bill,  we are planning  to leave St.. Augustine later this week and head to Bimini, then slow cruise thru Bahamas...continuing south.  

 

We are planning on checking in at Bimini Big Game Marina and staying for a day or two.

 

John

 



greatketch@...
 

John,

We'll second the vote for Browns. The only downside is that right now they don't have shore power on the docks, so if that is important to you, Bimini Big Game might be the better choice.  They are working on it...on island time. Everything else is in very good shape. Bimini Big Game looks nice on a walk through, although this time of year (between fishing seasons) everything here is really quiet. Right now there are three boats in Brown's, maybe a half dozen in Bimini Big Game.  Might change for the weekend, there is a big wahoo fishing tournament.

If you do come to Brown's and you want the restaurants and bars at Bimini Big Game, they are just a short walk away.

We're pulling out of Brown's tomorrow, and anchoring in Nixons Harbor for a day or two, then heading up to Freeport, then to the Berry Islands... then south... Watch for us on AIS!

All the marinas here have a very strong tidal current that runs through more or less parallel to the slips, so be ready for it.  The entrance channel has plenty of water, and the buoys are in place and correctly mark the channel, although they don't match the chart exactly. Trust the buoys more than the chart. Except...there was one errant red nun that was sitting right on top of the sand bar that wasn't on the chart at all, and looked to have drifted in from somewhere else.

Enjoy!

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas

---In amelyachtowners@..., <mcerdos@...> wrote :

John, ref: Bimini Big Game Marina – wouldn’t recommend it. It has gone way down-hill since Guy Harvey sold his interest in it, really not worth the money. I would suggest Browns. Easy in and out, not at all fancy but the price is right. You will find most cruisers stop at Browns. From Browns it is a 5 min walk to Immigration at BBGM and then Customs is a litter further up the road in the pink building (police station).

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Martinique

www.creampuff.us

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Monday, January 8, 2018 6:21 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

 

 

Hi Bill,  we are planning  to leave St.. Augustine later this week and head to Bimini, then slow cruise thru Bahamas...continuing south.  

 

We are planning on checking in at Bimini Big Game Marina and staying for a day or two.

 

John

 



Mark Erdos
 

John, ref: Bimini Big Game Marina – wouldn’t recommend it. It has gone way down-hill since Guy Harvey sold his interest in it, really not worth the money. I would suggest Browns. Easy in and out, not at all fancy but the price is right. You will find most cruisers stop at Browns. From Browns it is a 5 min walk to Immigration at BBGM and then Customs is a litter further up the road in the pink building (police station).

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Martinique

www.creampuff.us

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Monday, January 8, 2018 6:21 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Inverter/Charger wiring advise

 

 

Hi Bill,  we are planning  to leave St.. Augustine later this week and head to Bimini, then slow cruise thru Bahamas...continuing south.  

 

We are planning on checking in at Bimini Big Game Marina and staying for a day or two.

 

John

 

On Jan 8, 2018 12:24 PM, "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Colin,

 

We actually use the second battery charger much of the time when we are charging with the genset. Our new batteries can easily take over 100 amps of charging current for much of the charge cycle.  Adding another 50 amps to the 70 the Victron makes, just makes things faster.



Anything we can do to reduce the genset duty cycle make our lives more enjoyable and the boat more self-sufficient.



So far our solar installation, charger upgrade, and switching battery types has dropped us from about three hours a day, down to an average of a bit less than one hour a day, with many days of none at all. Which should drop even further as the sun returns to the northern hemisphere :)

 

Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

North Bimini, Bahamas

 

 


John Clark
 

Hi Bill,  we are planning  to leave St. Augustine later this week and head to Bimini, then slow cruise thru Bahamas...continuing south.  

We are planning on checking in at Bimini Big Game Marina and staying for a day or two.

John

On Jan 8, 2018 12:24 PM, "greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Colin,


We actually use the second battery charger much of the time when we are charging with the genset. Our new batteries can easily take over 100 amps of charging current for much of the charge cycle.  Adding another 50 amps to the 70 the Victron makes, just makes things faster.

Anything we can do to reduce the genset duty cycle make our lives more enjoyable and the boat more self-sufficient.

So far our solar installation, charger upgrade, and switching battery types has dropped us from about three hours a day, down to an average of a bit less than one hour a day, with many days of none at all. Which should drop even further as the sun returns to the northern hemisphere :)

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas



greatketch@...
 

Colin,

We actually use the second battery charger much of the time when we are charging with the genset. Our new batteries can easily take over 100 amps of charging current for much of the charge cycle.  Adding another 50 amps to the 70 the Victron makes, just makes things faster.

Anything we can do to reduce the genset duty cycle make our lives more enjoyable and the boat more self-sufficient.

So far our solar installation, charger upgrade, and switching battery types has dropped us from about three hours a day, down to an average of a bit less than one hour a day, with many days of none at all. Which should drop even further as the sun returns to the northern hemisphere :)

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas



Colin - ex SV Island Pearl
 

Ahh Bill. That is the missing link for me. I was wondering how one gets around that specific problem with a powerful inverter/charger system like this which switches automatically. By the way we also installed the separate control unit which is up above the dishwasher next to the boat's usual AC control switches. Normally when charging and/or using ac power we have this switch switched on the the RHS "inverter" mode. 

Since installing the Victron Multi we have never used our old battery chargers, firstly since they are no longer needed other than backup, but also till I got my head around this specific loop problem you mentioned of inverter potentially powering the chargers!!
.
We will be in a marina again soon so will have an electrician take our two Dolphin battery chargers off the 2nd power output now.

Thanks again

Colin
SV Island Pearl II, Amel53 #332
Phuket. 

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 3:17 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

I used the secondary output of the Victron for the second battery charger because it was the one thing that I would NEVER want be powered by the inverter pulling power from the batteries. 


For those of you who might not be familiar with the Victron setup, the Primary Output is powered by either lines power OR the inverter, while the secondary output is lines power ONLY and is shut down if lines power is not available, so it never feeds off the battery.

Bill Kinney
Sm160, Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas.


---In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

Bill

Thanks a ton for your explanations and diagram. A huge help to me and peace of mind that we have it done the same way as your system. Interesting that you sent your 2nd power out of the Victron to the 2nd charger. I had not though of that and did not use that 2nd power out feature yet.

On our previous boat, an Island Packet, we had the exact same 100% duplicated 110v and 230v systems running through a Heart2000 system 110v, and then the same Mastervolt 2000 inv-ch, so I understand how yours was done too.

All the very best to you in 2018, we intend to be in the Caribbean in 2019 Feb.

Best regards

Colin
Amel53 #332
Phuket till end Jan then Maldives till April.




--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445


greatketch@...
 

I used the secondary output of the Victron for the second battery charger because it was the one thing that I would NEVER want be powered by the inverter pulling power from the batteries. 

For those of you who might not be familiar with the Victron setup, the Primary Output is powered by either lines power OR the inverter, while the secondary output is lines power ONLY and is shut down if lines power is not available, so it never feeds off the battery.

Bill Kinney
Sm160, Harmonie
North Bimini, Bahamas.


---In amelyachtowners@..., <colin.d.streeter@...> wrote :

Bill

Thanks a ton for your explanations and diagram. A huge help to me and peace of mind that we have it done the same way as your system. Interesting that you sent your 2nd power out of the Victron to the 2nd charger. I had not though of that and did not use that 2nd power out feature yet.

On our previous boat, an Island Packet, we had the exact same 100% duplicated 110v and 230v systems running through a Heart2000 system 110v, and then the same Mastervolt 2000 inv-ch, so I understand how yours was done too.

All the very best to you in 2018, we intend to be in the Caribbean in 2019 Feb.

Best regards

Colin
Amel53 #332
Phuket till end Jan then Maldives till April.


Colin - ex SV Island Pearl
 

Bill

Thanks a ton for your explanations and diagram. A huge help to me and peace of mind that we have it done the same way as your system. Interesting that you sent your 2nd power out of the Victron to the 2nd charger. I had not though of that and did not use that 2nd power out feature yet.

On our previous boat, an Island Packet, we had the exact same 100% duplicated 110v and 230v systems running through a Heart2000 system 110v, and then the same Mastervolt 2000 inv-ch, so I understand how yours was done too.

All the very best to you in 2018, we intend to be in the Caribbean in 2019 Feb.

Best regards

Colin
Amel53 #332
Phuket till end Jan then Maldives till April.

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 1:24 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 


This is a bit confusing...  but I added my second level comments in italics....


---In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

AC Currents are (almost) never the source of stray current corrosion. To be sure, AC wiring CAN carry DC currents that can be serious sources of stray currents.  This is why AMEL separated the DC Negative from the AC Safety Ground and Bonding system.

RIGHT SO ANY FAULTS IN THE INVERTER, OR DOWNSTREAM EQUIMENT THAT RESUTS IN A DC VOLTAGE OVERLAID ON THE AC WIRING COULD AND WOULD CONTRIBUTE TO A STRAY CURRENT THROUGH THE BONDING SYSTEM...


As with many things with electrics and water... it's complicated.  If such a fault occured, it would show up as a voltage on the bonding system.  Amel's decision to avoid connecting the DC negative with the bonding system is not without its own problems. There is no free lunch...


A couple things about the AC Safety Ground.  It is normally connected to the AC Neutral only at the source of power. This is done so it can provide a low resistance path to carry any leakage current back to the source of power and safely away from people.

SO THE AC SAFETY GROUND ON THE SP CABLE IS CONNECTED TO THE AMEL BONDING SYSTEM. 


Yes.

 

When the generator is running, it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral together inside the generator.  RIGHT AND NOW THAT YOU REMIND ME I NEED TO VERIFY THE CONDUCTIVITY BETWEEN THE AC NEUTRAL (BLUE) AND AMEL BONDING (GREEN/YELLOW) WHILE THE GENERTOR IS RUNNING.  WHEN OFF THE TRANSFER SWITCH REVERTS TO SP.  SO WHEN I CHECKED IT I WAS READING RESISTANCE OF THE SP CABLE  UNPLUGGED. 


It can be a little tough to measure by resistance, since you have to measure with the generator running, and small voltages can make the ohm-meter nuts. I checked voltage readings with the generator running between hot and neutral (220V) and between Hot and Safety Ground (220V) and then between Neutral and Safety Ground (~0V) which is what I'd expect.


Same with an inverter.  When it has an external source of power, it passes the AC Safety Ground on through.  When it turns on and becomes the "source of the power" it connects the AC Safety Ground and Neutral so any leakage from the Hot wire has a way to get back to the source of power without going through people.  RIGHT THAT IS EXACTLY HOW THE DEVICE IS CONFIGURED, BUT IT HAS A DISCONNECT TO NOT CONNECT THE CHASSIS GROUND(SAFETY-GROUND/AMEL BONDING) TO THE NEUTRAL.   I WILL CHECK AGAN WHAT THE GENERATOR DOES WHEN ACTIVE.   

 

ONE THOUGHT I HAVE IT THAT THE GENERATOR IS NOT ACTIVE VERY MUCH HOWEVER, THE INVERTER WILL BE POWERED MOST OF THE TIME.  IS THE LENGTH OF TIME THE CONNECTION IS MADE A FACTOR TO CONSIDER?  


I don't see where the time would matter much, it's more a safety issue.


Without a connection back to the inverter when the inverter is the source of power, the AC Safety Ground becomes worse than useless.  If there was an insulation fault that connected the Hot wire to the case of, for example, your microwave, the AC Safety Ground would not be able to drain off that voltage because it could not supply a path for the current back to the source.  In that case the entire bonding system would become charged to the same voltage as the Hot wire with no way for the current to get back to the inverter. Now to put this in perspective, it is very unlikely on the boat that you could find a way to complete that circuit with your body...  but "very unlikely" is not the same as "not possible."

 

UNDERSTOOD.  ONE OF THE DOWNFALLS OF ISOLATING NOT CONNECTING IT.  ON US SUBMARINES WE HAD A SIMILAR SETUP FOR THREE PHASE AC WITH NO GROUND.  POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS TO CREW BUT MORE RESILIENT TO DAMAGE AND ALLOWED CONTINUED OPERATION DOWNSTREAM.  NOT QUITE THE PURPOSE FOR OUR BOATS. 


It's a fuzzy situation where it stops being "safe".  A lot of small inverters have no Safety Ground connection at all.  The expectation being that there is no easy way for a human to put themselves in between the hot and neutral parts of the circuit.  A very different situation than grid power, where the Ground (literally, the earth you stand on) is the return circuit, so any contact with the hot wire is a serious problem.

 

I CERTAINLY INTEND TO THINK A BIT ON THE SET UP BEFORE IMPLEMENTING.  


I don't think what you propose is terribly dangerous, but on the other hand I think it would do nothing to prevent corrosion issues. So any safety loss comes with out a gain.




--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445