[Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question


Ryan Meador
 

At first glance, I thought it could be dangerous to use multiple smart chargers because they could get into different states, but after thinking through all the possible combinations, I've convinced myself it is actually safe -- provided the total current is less than what the batteries can accept.  It might not produce the optimal results for your battery lifespan, though: they could transition from bulk to acceptance or acceptance to float before the battery is actually ready, because each charger can only sense its own contribution to the charge current.  Chargers in different stages shouldn't fight each other directly because they sense the current/voltage of the system.  Floating at different voltages should be safe; the charger with the lower float voltage would just not be doing anything.  If one or more chargers has a float voltage above that which the batteries are designed to handle, that would be bad... but that's also bad with just one charger.

I do not think it is safe to mix smart chargers and dumb chargers without knowing exactly how the dumb charger works.  It is conceivable that the dumb charger just puts out a constant voltage, and would act as a sink for a higher voltage -- then you'd get the two chargers directly fighting each other, possibly tripping breakers, and definitely wasting power.  The same could happen with two dumb chargers that have different voltage setpoints; presumably the ones Amel installed as stock were configured with the same voltage and/or were smart enough to shut off if they started acting as a sink.

As an aside, is a 16A shore power connection typical in some parts of the world?  At 230V, that's about the same wattage as the "small boat" 30A@120V connections in the USA.  A larger yacht like a Super Maramu is expected to connect to 50A@240V in the US, but usually also has the option of connecting to two 30A@120V connections.  I assume you can't connect to two 16A@230V connections because the 230V parts of the world don't use a split-phase power system like we do in the US, but perhaps I'm wrong about that.

Thanks,
Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA


On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:11 AM, svperegrinus@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Our solar chargers by Genasun are not properly adjustable to the voltages required by Trojan for our AGM batteries.  So we disconnect solar when on shorepower to prevent over-voltage charging of full batteries.


We routinely turn on both battery chargers as follows:

(1) When charging from the generator.
(2) When we will have shore power for only one day or two.

Evidently after one hour or less the batteries charge at less than 100 A, and at this point it makes no difference whether you have one or both chargers on.  So we routinely turn one off.

Cheers,

Peregrinus
SM2K N. 350 (2002)
Herzliya



Mohammad Shirloo
 

Hi Ryan;
 
We have a 100A and a 40A charger aboard. If the batteries are being drained to proper levels for optimal life, the 100A charger will only be at max output for 10-15 minutes before the charge rate drops below the max output, so there is minimal advantage in running the two charges together. The disadvantages are, at least to a certain extent, unknown and are dependent on many factors.
 
As far as the shore power connections in other parts of the world, in the Med, there are many marinas and harbors that only have 16A connections. However there are many that also have 32A connections. Some have higher output connections as well. The limiting factor on the Amels, is the shore power connection and wiring to the panel. On our 54, it is sized for 32A. Therefore there is a 32A breaker in the aft lazarette that feeds the panel. You have to check on your SM to see the wire sizing and shore power breaker sizing.
 
The only way to get the full 50A 230V to the panel is by the generator.
 
 
Respectfully;
Mohammad and Aty
B&B Kokomo
Amel 54 #099
 


From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 9:39 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

At first glance, I thought it could be dangerous to use multiple smart chargers because they could get into different states, but after thinking through all the possible combinations, I've convinced myself it is actually safe -- provided the total current is less than what the batteries can accept.  It might not produce the optimal results for your battery lifespan, though: they could transition from bulk to acceptance or acceptance to float before the battery is actually ready, because each charger can only sense its own contribution to the charge current.  Chargers in different stages shouldn't fight each other directly because they sense the current/voltage of the system.  Floating at different voltages should be safe; the charger with the lower float voltage would just not be doing anything.  If one or more chargers has a float voltage above that which the batteries are designed to handle, that would be bad... but that's also bad with just one charger.

I do not think it is safe to mix smart chargers and dumb chargers without knowing exactly how the dumb charger works.  It is conceivable that the dumb charger just puts out a constant voltage, and would act as a sink for a higher voltage -- then you'd get the two chargers directly fighting each other, possibly tripping breakers, and definitely wasting power.  The same could happen with two dumb chargers that have different voltage setpoints; presumably the ones Amel installed as stock were configured with the same voltage and/or were smart enough to shut off if they started acting as a sink.

As an aside, is a 16A shore power connection typical in some parts of the world?  At 230V, that's about the same wattage as the "small boat" 30A@120V connections in the USA.  A larger yacht like a Super Maramu is expected to connect to 50A@240V in the US, but usually also has the option of connecting to two 30A@120V connections.  I assume you can't connect to two 16A@230V connections because the 230V parts of the world don't use a split-phase power system like we do in the US, but perhaps I'm wrong about that.

Thanks,
Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA


On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:11 AM, svperegrinus@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Our solar chargers by Genasun are not properly adjustable to the voltages required by Trojan for our AGM batteries.  So we disconnect solar when on shorepower to prevent over-voltage charging of full batteries.


We routinely turn on both battery chargers as follows:

(1) When charging from the generator.
(2) When we will have shore power for only one day or two.

Evidently after one hour or less the batteries charge at less than 100 A, and at this point it makes no difference whether you have one or both chargers on.  So we routinely turn one off.

Cheers,

Peregrinus
SM2K N. 350 (2002)
Herzliya



Ryan Meador
 

Interesting that so many marinas as so limiting on power.  Is it possible to run all three air conditioners on 16A?  I've never measured the draw.

My SM has a shore power cord and main breaker sized for 35A (I was under the impression this is true for all SM).  I believe the generator runs through that same 35A breaker, so that's the max there as well (it's basically moot since it's a 9kW generator).  My shore power cord could use a replacement, so I've been investigating the possibility of upgrading it to handle 50A.  It would be handy to have the extra power to run the heat in the winter.  My boat came from the factory with extra dedicated heater circuits, which I don't think are standard, so it would be no trouble at all to exceed 35A draw from the panel.  The biggest challenge is fitting a larger cord through the conduit to the panel.

Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA


On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:10 PM, 'Mohammad Shirloo' mshirloo@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi Ryan;
 
We have a 100A and a 40A charger aboard. If the batteries are being drained to proper levels for optimal life, the 100A charger will only be at max output for 10-15 minutes before the charge rate drops below the max output, so there is minimal advantage in running the two charges together. The disadvantages are, at least to a certain extent, unknown and are dependent on many factors.
 
As far as the shore power connections in other parts of the world, in the Med, there are many marinas and harbors that only have 16A connections. However there are many that also have 32A connections. Some have higher output connections as well. The limiting factor on the Amels, is the shore power connection and wiring to the panel. On our 54, it is sized for 32A. Therefore there is a 32A breaker in the aft lazarette that feeds the panel. You have to check on your SM to see the wire sizing and shore power breaker sizing.
 
The only way to get the full 50A 230V to the panel is by the generator.
 
 
Respectfully;
Mohammad and Aty
B&B Kokomo
Amel 54 #099
 


From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 9:39 AM
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

At first glance, I thought it could be dangerous to use multiple smart chargers because they could get into different states, but after thinking through all the possible combinations, I've convinced myself it is actually safe -- provided the total current is less than what the batteries can accept.  It might not produce the optimal results for your battery lifespan, though: they could transition from bulk to acceptance or acceptance to float before the battery is actually ready, because each charger can only sense its own contribution to the charge current.  Chargers in different stages shouldn't fight each other directly because they sense the current/voltage of the system.  Floating at different voltages should be safe; the charger with the lower float voltage would just not be doing anything.  If one or more chargers has a float voltage above that which the batteries are designed to handle, that would be bad... but that's also bad with just one charger.

I do not think it is safe to mix smart chargers and dumb chargers without knowing exactly how the dumb charger works.  It is conceivable that the dumb charger just puts out a constant voltage, and would act as a sink for a higher voltage -- then you'd get the two chargers directly fighting each other, possibly tripping breakers, and definitely wasting power.  The same could happen with two dumb chargers that have different voltage setpoints; presumably the ones Amel installed as stock were configured with the same voltage and/or were smart enough to shut off if they started acting as a sink.

As an aside, is a 16A shore power connection typical in some parts of the world?  At 230V, that's about the same wattage as the "small boat" 30A@120V connections in the USA.  A larger yacht like a Super Maramu is expected to connect to 50A@240V in the US, but usually also has the option of connecting to two 30A@120V connections.  I assume you can't connect to two 16A@230V connections because the 230V parts of the world don't use a split-phase power system like we do in the US, but perhaps I'm wrong about that.

Thanks,
Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA


On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:11 AM, svperegrinus@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Our solar chargers by Genasun are not properly adjustable to the voltages required by Trojan for our AGM batteries.  So we disconnect solar when on shorepower to prevent over-voltage charging of full batteries.


We routinely turn on both battery chargers as follows:

(1) When charging from the generator.
(2) When we will have shore power for only one day or two.

Evidently after one hour or less the batteries charge at less than 100 A, and at this point it makes no difference whether you have one or both chargers on.  So we routinely turn one off.

Cheers,

Peregrinus
SM2K N. 350 (2002)
Herzliya




Mohammad Shirloo
 

Ryan;
 
The ACs draw about 4-5 A at 230V. So with all three running and the charger and other systems you will exceed the 16A. At the recommendation of Bill Rouse of Ex BeBe and now AmelSchool.com (had to give Bill a plug, he has been of tremendous help to every one here), we installed a power meter which helps greatly in monitoring the current being used on board so we do not exceed the limits of the type of connection that is feeding the panel. In this manner we can turn systems on-off based on what we need to do on board.
 
I'm not sure about the SM, but there should be another breaker just for the shore power, before it gets to the main breaker at the panel. On our 54 it is in the aft lazarette, which is the closets point to the shore power connection. I would think that it would be prudent to have a breaker right where the shore power comes in, so that the wires from the shore power connection to the main panel are not left unprotected.
 
We have spent one winter sailing the Greek Isles. It was the coldest winter in 50 years with temperatures typically in the 30s and winds of force 6-9. We managed to heat the entire boat and run all systems on 16A shore power in most occasions by managing the systems that were used simultaneously. The Amels are extremely well designed to function well in most conditions.
 
We have not made any modifications to the factory installed systems for the past 3 years that we have owned her, and are very happy with the systems as installed by the factory. The suggestion to us from every one when we first joined the group, which we have now come to appreciate, was to not make any modifications until you have used the boat extensively for over a year.
 
 
 
Respectfully;
Mohammad and Aty
B&B Kokomo
Amel 54 #099
 


From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 11:19 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

Interesting that so many marinas as so limiting on power.  Is it possible to run all three air conditioners on 16A?  I've never measured the draw.

My SM has a shore power cord and main breaker sized for 35A (I was under the impression this is true for all SM).  I believe the generator runs through that same 35A breaker, so that's the max there as well (it's basically moot since it's a 9kW generator).  My shore power cord could use a replacement, so I've been investigating the possibility of upgrading it to handle 50A.  It would be handy to have the extra power to run the heat in the winter.  My boat came from the factory with extra dedicated heater circuits, which I don't think are standard, so it would be no trouble at all to exceed 35A draw from the panel.  The biggest challenge is fitting a larger cord through the conduit to the panel.

Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA


On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:10 PM, 'Mohammad Shirloo' mshirloo@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi Ryan;
 
We have a 100A and a 40A charger aboard. If the batteries are being drained to proper levels for optimal life, the 100A charger will only be at max output for 10-15 minutes before the charge rate drops below the max output, so there is minimal advantage in running the two charges together. The disadvantages are, at least to a certain extent, unknown and are dependent on many factors.
 
As far as the shore power connections in other parts of the world, in the Med, there are many marinas and harbors that only have 16A connections. However there are many that also have 32A connections. Some have higher output connections as well. The limiting factor on the Amels, is the shore power connection and wiring to the panel. On our 54, it is sized for 32A. Therefore there is a 32A breaker in the aft lazarette that feeds the panel. You have to check on your SM to see the wire sizing and shore power breaker sizing.
 
The only way to get the full 50A 230V to the panel is by the generator.
 
 
Respectfully;
Mohammad and Aty
B&B Kokomo
Amel 54 #099
 


From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 9:39 AM
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

At first glance, I thought it could be dangerous to use multiple smart chargers because they could get into different states, but after thinking through all the possible combinations, I've convinced myself it is actually safe -- provided the total current is less than what the batteries can accept.  It might not produce the optimal results for your battery lifespan, though: they could transition from bulk to acceptance or acceptance to float before the battery is actually ready, because each charger can only sense its own contribution to the charge current.  Chargers in different stages shouldn't fight each other directly because they sense the current/voltage of the system.  Floating at different voltages should be safe; the charger with the lower float voltage would just not be doing anything.  If one or more chargers has a float voltage above that which the batteries are designed to handle, that would be bad... but that's also bad with just one charger.

I do not think it is safe to mix smart chargers and dumb chargers without knowing exactly how the dumb charger works.  It is conceivable that the dumb charger just puts out a constant voltage, and would act as a sink for a higher voltage -- then you'd get the two chargers directly fighting each other, possibly tripping breakers, and definitely wasting power.  The same could happen with two dumb chargers that have different voltage setpoints; presumably the ones Amel installed as stock were configured with the same voltage and/or were smart enough to shut off if they started acting as a sink.

As an aside, is a 16A shore power connection typical in some parts of the world?  At 230V, that's about the same wattage as the "small boat" 30A@120V connections in the USA.  A larger yacht like a Super Maramu is expected to connect to 50A@240V in the US, but usually also has the option of connecting to two 30A@120V connections.  I assume you can't connect to two 16A@230V connections because the 230V parts of the world don't use a split-phase power system like we do in the US, but perhaps I'm wrong about that.

Thanks,
Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA


On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:11 AM, svperegrinus@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Our solar chargers by Genasun are not properly adjustable to the voltages required by Trojan for our AGM batteries.  So we disconnect solar when on shorepower to prevent over-voltage charging of full batteries.


We routinely turn on both battery chargers as follows:

(1) When charging from the generator.
(2) When we will have shore power for only one day or two.

Evidently after one hour or less the batteries charge at less than 100 A, and at this point it makes no difference whether you have one or both chargers on.  So we routinely turn one off.

Cheers,

Peregrinus
SM2K N. 350 (2002)
Herzliya




eric freedman
 

Looking at the wiring on Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376 it appears that you can draw 25 amps from the genset or shore power without any problem.

I don’t know where the 16 amp figure comes from.

 

The genset I believe is 7.5 kw , yet 25 amps is only 5.75 kw

The original Amel wire is also rated at 30 amps as is all the wiring coming from the transfer case to the main electrical panel.

Kimberlite does not have a circuit breaker in the aft lazarette, just a breaker on the side of the AC panel.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 2:56 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

 

Ryan;

 

The ACs draw about 4-5 A at 230V. So with all three running and the charger and other systems you will exceed the 16A. At the recommendation of Bill Rouse of Ex BeBe and now AmelSchool.com (had to give Bill a plug, he has been of tremendous help to every one here), we installed a power meter which helps greatly in monitoring the current being used on board so we do not exceed the limits of the type of connection that is feeding the panel. In this manner we can turn systems on-off based on what we need to do on board.

 

I'm not sure about the SM, but there should be another breaker just for the shore power, before it gets to the main breaker at the panel. On our 54 it is in the aft lazarette, which is the closets point to the shore power connection. I would think that it would be prudent to have a breaker right where the shore power comes in, so that the wires from the shore power connection to the main panel are not left unprotected.

 

We have spent one winter sailing the Greek Isles. It was the coldest winter in 50 years with temperatures typically in the 30s and winds of force 6-9. We managed to heat the entire boat and run all systems on 16A shore power in most occasions by managing the systems that were used simultaneously. The Amels are extremely well designed to function well in most conditions.

 

We have not made any modifications to the factory installed systems for the past 3 years that we have owned her, and are very happy with the systems as installed by the factory. The suggestion to us from every one when we first joined the group, which we have now come to appreciate, was to not make any modifications until you have used the boat extensively for over a year.

 

 

 

Respectfully;

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

 


From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 11:19 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

Interesting that so many marinas as so limiting on power.  Is it possible to run all three air conditioners on 16A?  I've never measured the draw.

 

My SM has a shore power cord and main breaker sized for 35A (I was under the impression this is true for all SM).  I believe the generator runs through that same 35A breaker, so that's the max there as well (it's basically moot since it's a 9kW generator).  My shore power cord could use a replacement, so I've been investigating the possibility of upgrading it to handle 50A.  It would be handy to have the extra power to run the heat in the winter.  My boat came from the factory with extra dedicated heater circuits, which I don't think are standard, so it would be no trouble at all to exceed 35A draw from the panel.  The biggest challenge is fitting a larger cord through the conduit to the panel.

 

Ryan

SM 233 Iteration

Boston, MA, USA

 

 

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:10 PM, 'Mohammad Shirloo' mshirloo@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Ryan;

 

We have a 100A and a 40A charger aboard. If the batteries are being drained to proper levels for optimal life, the 100A charger will only be at max output for 10-15 minutes before the charge rate drops below the max output, so there is minimal advantage in running the two charges together. The disadvantages are, at least to a certain extent, unknown and are dependent on many factors.

 

As far as the shore power connections in other parts of the world, in the Med, there are many marinas and harbors that only have 16A connections. However there are many that also have 32A connections. Some have higher output connections as well. The limiting factor on the Amels, is the shore power connection and wiring to the panel. On our 54, it is sized for 32A. Therefore there is a 32A breaker in the aft lazarette that feeds the panel. You have to check on your SM to see the wire sizing and shore power breaker sizing.

 

The only way to get the full 50A 230V to the panel is by the generator.

 

 

Respectfully;

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

 


From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 9:39 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

At first glance, I thought it could be dangerous to use multiple smart chargers because they could get into different states, but after thinking through all the possible combinations, I've convinced myself it is actually safe -- provided the total current is less than what the batteries can accept.  It might not produce the optimal results for your battery lifespan, though: they could transition from bulk to acceptance or acceptance to float before the battery is actually ready, because each charger can only sense its own contribution to the charge current.  Chargers in different stages shouldn't fight each other directly because they sense the current/voltage of the system.  Floating at different voltages should be safe; the charger with the lower float voltage would just not be doing anything.  If one or more chargers has a float voltage above that which the batteries are designed to handle, that would be bad... but that's also bad with just one charger.

 

I do not think it is safe to mix smart chargers and dumb chargers without knowing exactly how the dumb charger works.  It is conceivable that the dumb charger just puts out a constant voltage, and would act as a sink for a higher voltage -- then you'd get the two chargers directly fighting each other, possibly tripping breakers, and definitely wasting power.  The same could happen with two dumb chargers that have different voltage setpoints; presumably the ones Amel installed as stock were configured with the same voltage and/or were smart enough to shut off if they started acting as a sink.

 

As an aside, is a 16A shore power connection typical in some parts of the world?  At 230V, that's about the same wattage as the "small boat" 30A@120V connections in the USA.  A larger yacht like a Super Maramu is expected to connect to 50A@240V in the US, but usually also has the option of connecting to two 30A@120V connections.  I assume you can't connect to two 16A@230V connections because the 230V parts of the world don't use a split-phase power system like we do in the US, but perhaps I'm wrong about that.

 

Thanks,

Ryan

SM 233 Iteration

Boston, MA, USA

 

 

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:11 AM, svperegrinus@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Our solar chargers by Genasun are not properly adjustable to the voltages required by Trojan for our AGM batteries.  So we disconnect solar when on shorepower to prevent over-voltage charging of full batteries.

 

We routinely turn on both battery chargers as follows:

 

(1) When charging from the generator.

(2) When we will have shore power for only one day or two.

 

Evidently after one hour or less the batteries charge at less than 100 A, and at this point it makes no difference whether you have one or both chargers on.  So we routinely turn one off.

 

Cheers,

 

Peregrinus

SM2K N. 350 (2002)

Herzliya

 

 


Brent Cameron
 

Eric, are the timers on the three cabin air conditioners for staggered starting that you referred to part of the later version SM design or something you retrofitted?  It’s an awesome idea as three compressors firing up at the same time can draw a lot of current. Thanks! 

Brent Cameron
Future SM owner. 

6S+

On Jan 10, 2018, at 3:17 PM, 'sailormon' kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Looking at the wiring on Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376 it appears that you can draw 25 amps from the genset or shore power without any problem.

I don’t know where the 16 amp figure comes from.

 

The genset I believe is 7.5 kw , yet 25 amps is only 5.75 kw

The original Amel wire is also rated at 30 amps as is all the wiring coming from the transfer case to the main electrical panel.

Kimberlite does not have a circuit breaker in the aft lazarette, just a breaker on the side of the AC panel.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 2:56 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

 

Ryan;

 

The ACs draw about 4-5 A at 230V. So with all three running and the charger and other systems you will exceed the 16A. At the recommendation of Bill Rouse of Ex BeBe and now AmelSchool.com (had to give Bill a plug, he has been of tremendous help to every one here), we installed a power meter which helps greatly in monitoring the current being used on board so we do not exceed the limits of the type of connection that is feeding the panel. In this manner we can turn systems on-off based on what we need to do on board.

 

I'm not sure about the SM, but there should be another breaker just for the shore power, before it gets to the main breaker at the panel. On our 54 it is in the aft lazarette, which is the closets point to the shore power connection. I would think that it would be prudent to have a breaker right where the shore power comes in, so that the wires from the shore power connection to the main panel are not left unprotected.

 

We have spent one winter sailing the Greek Isles. It was the coldest winter in 50 years with temperatures typically in the 30s and winds of force 6-9. We managed to heat the entire boat and run all systems on 16A shore power in most occasions by managing the systems that were used simultaneously. The Amels are extremely well designed to function well in most conditions.

 

We have not made any modifications to the factory installed systems for the past 3 years that we have owned her, and are very happy with the systems as installed by the factory. The suggestion to us from every one when we first joined the group, which we have now come to appreciate, was to not make any modifications until you have used the boat extensively for over a year.

 

 

 

Respectfully;

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

 


From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 11:19 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

Interesting that so many marinas as so limiting on power.  Is it possible to run all three air conditioners on 16A?  I've never measured the draw.

 

My SM has a shore power cord and main breaker sized for 35A (I was under the impression this is true for all SM).  I believe the generator runs through that same 35A breaker, so that's the max there as well (it's basically moot since it's a 9kW generator).  My shore power cord could use a replacement, so I've been investigating the possibility of upgrading it to handle 50A.  It would be handy to have the extra power to run the heat in the winter.  My boat came from the factory with extra dedicated heater circuits, which I don't think are standard, so it would be no trouble at all to exceed 35A draw from the panel.  The biggest challenge is fitting a larger cord through the conduit to the panel.

 

Ryan

SM 233 Iteration

Boston, MA, USA

 

 

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:10 PM, 'Mohammad Shirloo' mshirloo@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Ryan;

 

We have a 100A and a 40A charger aboard. If the batteries are being drained to proper levels for optimal life, the 100A charger will only be at max output for 10-15 minutes before the charge rate drops below the max output, so there is minimal advantage in running the two charges together. The disadvantages are, at least to a certain extent, unknown and are dependent on many factors.

 

As far as the shore power connections in other parts of the world, in the Med, there are many marinas and harbors that only have 16A connections. However there are many that also have 32A connections. Some have higher output connections as well. The limiting factor on the Amels, is the shore power connection and wiring to the panel. On our 54, it is sized for 32A. Therefore there is a 32A breaker in the aft lazarette that feeds the panel. You have to check on your SM to see the wire sizing and shore power breaker sizing.

 

The only way to get the full 50A 230V to the panel is by the generator.

 

 

Respectfully;

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

 


From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 9:39 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

At first glance, I thought it could be dangerous to use multiple smart chargers because they could get into different states, but after thinking through all the possible combinations, I've convinced myself it is actually safe -- provided the total current is less than what the batteries can accept.  It might not produce the optimal results for your battery lifespan, though: they could transition from bulk to acceptance or acceptance to float before the battery is actually ready, because each charger can only sense its own contribution to the charge current.  Chargers in different stages shouldn't fight each other directly because they sense the current/voltage of the system.  Floating at different voltages should be safe; the charger with the lower float voltage would just not be doing anything.  If one or more chargers has a float voltage above that which the batteries are designed to handle, that would be bad... but that's also bad with just one charger.

 

I do not think it is safe to mix smart chargers and dumb chargers without knowing exactly how the dumb charger works.  It is conceivable that the dumb charger just puts out a constant voltage, and would act as a sink for a higher voltage -- then you'd get the two chargers directly fighting each other, possibly tripping breakers, and definitely wasting power.  The same could happen with two dumb chargers that have different voltage setpoints; presumably the ones Amel installed as stock were configured with the same voltage and/or were smart enough to shut off if they started acting as a sink.

 

As an aside, is a 16A shore power connection typical in some parts of the world?  At 230V, that's about the same wattage as the "small boat" 30A@120V connections in the USA.  A larger yacht like a Super Maramu is expected to connect to 50A@240V in the US, but usually also has the option of connecting to two 30A@120V connections.  I assume you can't connect to two 16A@230V connections because the 230V parts of the world don't use a split-phase power system like we do in the US, but perhaps I'm wrong about that.

 

Thanks,

Ryan

SM 233 Iteration

Boston, MA, USA

 

 

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:11 AM, svperegrinus@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Our solar chargers by Genasun are not properly adjustable to the voltages required by Trojan for our AGM batteries.  So we disconnect solar when on shorepower to prevent over-voltage charging of full batteries.

 

We routinely turn on both battery chargers as follows:

 

(1) When charging from the generator.

(2) When we will have shore power for only one day or two.

 

Evidently after one hour or less the batteries charge at less than 100 A, and at this point it makes no difference whether you have one or both chargers on.  So we routinely turn one off.

 

Cheers,

 

Peregrinus

SM2K N. 350 (2002)

Herzliya

 

 


Bill & Judy Rouse <yahoogroups@...>
 

Brent,

The Climma A/C compressor timers are staggered in a SM. As i remember it, 10, 15, & 20 seconds.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970



Alan Leslie
 

The cable on our SM is rated 16A. There is a previous discussion on this forum where Olivier confirmed that.
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Brent Cameron
 


eric freedman
 

Brent,

The time delays are standard on my Climma 9eh AC units.

If you open up the black control box, mounted to the white panel is a small electrical device with a knob on it with numbers. That is the number of seconds that the unit is delayed before the compressor starts.

 

The same timer is mounted in the transfer case of my generator transfer case. It prevents the electric going to the panel until the generator has run for a bit.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 4:22 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

 

Eric, are the timers on the three cabin air conditioners for staggered starting that you referred to part of the later version SM design or something you retrofitted?  It’s an awesome idea as three compressors firing up at the same time can draw a lot of current. Thanks! 

 

Brent Cameron

Future SM owner. 

6S+


On Jan 10, 2018, at 3:17 PM, 'sailormon' kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Looking at the wiring on Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376 it appears that you can draw 25 amps from the genset or shore power without any problem.

I don’t know where the 16 amp figure comes from.

 

The genset I believe is 7.5 kw , yet 25 amps is only 5.75 kw

The original Amel wire is also rated at 30 amps as is all the wiring coming from the transfer case to the main electrical panel.

Kimberlite does not have a circuit breaker in the aft lazarette, just a breaker on the side of the AC panel.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 2:56 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

 

Ryan;

 

The ACs draw about 4-5 A at 230V. So with all three running and the charger and other systems you will exceed the 16A. At the recommendation of Bill Rouse of Ex BeBe and now AmelSchool.com (had to give Bill a plug, he has been of tremendous help to every one here), we installed a power meter which helps greatly in monitoring the current being used on board so we do not exceed the limits of the type of connection that is feeding the panel. In this manner we can turn systems on-off based on what we need to do on board.

 

I'm not sure about the SM, but there should be another breaker just for the shore power, before it gets to the main breaker at the panel. On our 54 it is in the aft lazarette, which is the closets point to the shore power connection. I would think that it would be prudent to have a breaker right where the shore power comes in, so that the wires from the shore power connection to the main panel are not left unprotected.

 

We have spent one winter sailing the Greek Isles. It was the coldest winter in 50 years with temperatures typically in the 30s and winds of force 6-9. We managed to heat the entire boat and run all systems on 16A shore power in most occasions by managing the systems that were used simultaneously. The Amels are extremely well designed to function well in most conditions.

 

We have not made any modifications to the factory installed systems for the past 3 years that we have owned her, and are very happy with the systems as installed by the factory. The suggestion to us from every one when we first joined the group, which we have now come to appreciate, was to not make any modifications until you have used the boat extensively for over a year.

 

 

 

Respectfully;

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

 


From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 11:19 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

Interesting that so many marinas as so limiting on power.  Is it possible to run all three air conditioners on 16A?  I've never measured the draw.

 

My SM has a shore power cord and main breaker sized for 35A (I was under the impression this is true for all SM).  I believe the generator runs through that same 35A breaker, so that's the max there as well (it's basically moot since it's a 9kW generator).  My shore power cord could use a replacement, so I've been investigating the possibility of upgrading it to handle 50A.  It would be handy to have the extra power to run the heat in the winter.  My boat came from the factory with extra dedicated heater circuits, which I don't think are standard, so it would be no trouble at all to exceed 35A draw from the panel.  The biggest challenge is fitting a larger cord through the conduit to the panel..

 

Ryan

SM 233 Iteration

Boston, MA, USA

 

 

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:10 PM, 'Mohammad Shirloo' mshirloo@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Ryan;

 

We have a 100A and a 40A charger aboard. If the batteries are being drained to proper levels for optimal life, the 100A charger will only be at max output for 10-15 minutes before the charge rate drops below the max output, so there is minimal advantage in running the two charges together. The disadvantages are, at least to a certain extent, unknown and are dependent on many factors.

 

As far as the shore power connections in other parts of the world, in the Med, there are many marinas and harbors that only have 16A connections. However there are many that also have 32A connections. Some have higher output connections as well. The limiting factor on the Amels, is the shore power connection and wiring to the panel. On our 54, it is sized for 32A. Therefore there is a 32A breaker in the aft lazarette that feeds the panel. You have to check on your SM to see the wire sizing and shore power breaker sizing.

 

The only way to get the full 50A 230V to the panel is by the generator.

 

 

Respectfully;

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

 


From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 9:39 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

At first glance, I thought it could be dangerous to use multiple smart chargers because they could get into different states, but after thinking through all the possible combinations, I've convinced myself it is actually safe -- provided the total current is less than what the batteries can accept.  It might not produce the optimal results for your battery lifespan, though: they could transition from bulk to acceptance or acceptance to float before the battery is actually ready, because each charger can only sense its own contribution to the charge current.  Chargers in different stages shouldn't fight each other directly because they sense the current/voltage of the system.  Floating at different voltages should be safe; the charger with the lower float voltage would just not be doing anything.  If one or more chargers has a float voltage above that which the batteries are designed to handle, that would be bad... but that's also bad with just one charger.

 

I do not think it is safe to mix smart chargers and dumb chargers without knowing exactly how the dumb charger works.  It is conceivable that the dumb charger just puts out a constant voltage, and would act as a sink for a higher voltage -- then you'd get the two chargers directly fighting each other, possibly tripping breakers, and definitely wasting power.  The same could happen with two dumb chargers that have different voltage setpoints; presumably the ones Amel installed as stock were configured with the same voltage and/or were smart enough to shut off if they started acting as a sink.

 

As an aside, is a 16A shore power connection typical in some parts of the world?  At 230V, that's about the same wattage as the "small boat" 30A@120V connections in the USA.  A larger yacht like a Super Maramu is expected to connect to 50A@240V in the US, but usually also has the option of connecting to two 30A@120V connections.  I assume you can't connect to two 16A@230V connections because the 230V parts of the world don't use a split-phase power system like we do in the US, but perhaps I'm wrong about that.

 

Thanks,

Ryan

SM 233 Iteration

Boston, MA, USA

 

 

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:11 AM, svperegrinus@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Our solar chargers by Genasun are not properly adjustable to the voltages required by Trojan for our AGM batteries.  So we disconnect solar when on shorepower to prevent over-voltage charging of full batteries.

 

We routinely turn on both battery chargers as follows:

 

(1) When charging from the generator.

(2) When we will have shore power for only one day or two.

 

Evidently after one hour or less the batteries charge at less than 100 A, and at this point it makes no difference whether you have one or both chargers on.  So we routinely turn one off.

 

Cheers,

 

Peregrinus

SM2K N. 350 (2002)

Herzliya

 

 


eric freedman
 

My old cable was the metric equivalent of 10 gauge. Must have been a change in the wiring.

In any event if you use 10 gauge you can use up to 30 amps.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 5:07 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: RE: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

 

The cable on our SM is rated 16A. There is a previous discussion on this forum where Olivier confirmed that.

Cheers

Alan

Elyse SM437

 


Brent Cameron
 


greatketch@...
 

The variable start timer is a standard feature on most small marine AC units where the manufacturer would reasonably expect more than one unit to be installed on a boat.

If you have multiple AC units that are starting at the same time, dig into the manual.  You will most likely find a way to alter the timing so they stagger-start when powered up at the same time.

Climmia, Cruiseair, and MarinAire--among others--have this feature.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Grand Bahama Is.


Ryan Meador
 

My shore power cable has 2.5 sq mm conductors, according to the printing on the jacket.  This ABYC wire sizing chart suggests the maximum current for a cable of 3 conductors of that size is 26A.  I was under the impression it's rated for 35A because when I plug in the relevant info into the ABYC wire size calculator app, it says "10AWG or 2.5 sq mm"...  But apparently the metric value is calculated according to ISO, not ABYC, standards.  So at least somebody thinks it's rated for that.  I haven't been able to figure out what standard the app is referring to as "ISO", so I have no idea if that's something safe to rely on.  I guess I'll have be more careful about my usage than I thought!  Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA


On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 3:01 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

The variable start timer is a standard feature on most small marine AC units where the manufacturer would reasonably expect more than one unit to be installed on a boat.


If you have multiple AC units that are starting at the same time, dig into the manual.  You will most likely find a way to alter the timing so they stagger-start when powered up at the same time.

Climmia, Cruiseair, and MarinAire--among others--have this feature.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Grand Bahama Is.



eric freedman
 

Ryan,

Wiring in a building here in the USA when 12 gauge wire is used is a 20 amp circuit with a breaker.

10 gauge is 30 amps. I believe your boat was rewired with 10 gauge.

 

What is the writing on the cable.

This is the chart that I had sent in another email.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/awg-wire-gauge-d_731.html

 

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 10:15 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

 

My shore power cable has 2.5 sq mm conductors, according to the printing on the jacket.  This ABYC wire sizing chart suggests the maximum current for a cable of 3 conductors of that size is 26A.  I was under the impression it's rated for 35A because when I plug in the relevant info into the ABYC wire size calculator app, it says "10AWG or 2.5 sq mm"...  But apparently the metric value is calculated according to ISO, not ABYC, standards.  So at least somebody thinks it's rated for that.  I haven't been able to figure out what standard the app is referring to as "ISO", so I have no idea if that's something safe to rely on.  I guess I'll have be more careful about my usage than I thought!  Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

 

Ryan

SM 233 Iteration

Boston, MA, USA

 

 

On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 3:01 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

The variable start timer is a standard feature on most small marine AC units where the manufacturer would reasonably expect more than one unit to be installed on a boat.

 

If you have multiple AC units that are starting at the same time, dig into the manual.  You will most likely find a way to alter the timing so they stagger-start when powered up at the same time.

 

Climmia, Cruiseair, and MarinAire--among others--have this feature.

 

Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

Grand Bahama Is.

 


eric freedman
 

Ryan are you meaning 2.5 mm diameter cable this is 10 gauge.  2.5 sq (cross section ) is something like 13 USA gauge.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 10:15 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

 

My shore power cable has 2.5 sq mm conductors, according to the printing on the jacket.  This ABYC wire sizing chart suggests the maximum current for a cable of 3 conductors of that size is 26A.  I was under the impression it's rated for 35A because when I plug in the relevant info into the ABYC wire size calculator app, it says "10AWG or 2.5 sq mm"...  But apparently the metric value is calculated according to ISO, not ABYC, standards.  So at least somebody thinks it's rated for that.  I haven't been able to figure out what standard the app is referring to as "ISO", so I have no idea if that's something safe to rely on.  I guess I'll have be more careful about my usage than I thought!  Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

 

Ryan

SM 233 Iteration

Boston, MA, USA

 

 

On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 3:01 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

The variable start timer is a standard feature on most small marine AC units where the manufacturer would reasonably expect more than one unit to be installed on a boat.

 

If you have multiple AC units that are starting at the same time, dig into the manual.  You will most likely find a way to alter the timing so they stagger-start when powered up at the same time.

 

Climmia, Cruiseair, and MarinAire--among others--have this feature.

 

Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

Grand Bahama Is.

 


Ryan Meador
 

Hi Eric,
The cable reads "Silec Tenaflex SR 3G2.5mm2 USE H07 RNF 221".  That seems to pretty clearly mean the conductors are 2.5 sq mm, though if you think differently, please let me know.  This corresponds to approximately 13AWG, as you say.  The chart you linked does not list current limits, but the one I linked earlier does (if you fix the link. Yahoo seems to enjoy adding extra dots; it did the same for yours the first time).  I have not been able to divine the temperature rating of the wire, but 105°C does not seem unreasonable given the manufacturer claims it's good for high temperature environments (I contacted them early this week but haven't heard back).  Thus, I conclude from the table it rated for 26A under ABYC standards.  I do not know why this would be more permissive than USA building code, but I wonder if it might have something to do with the temperature rating.  I haven't been able to find a solid source for the temperature rating of Romex, but it sounds like it might be 60°C.

Thanks,
Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA


On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 10:36 AM, 'sailormon' kimberlite@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Ryan are you meaning 2.5 mm diameter cable this is 10 gauge.  2.5 sq (cross section ) is something like 13 USA gauge.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com [mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 10:15 PM
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Generator charging question

 

 

My shore power cable has 2.5 sq mm conductors, according to the printing on the jacket.  This ABYC wire sizing chart suggests the maximum current for a cable of 3 conductors of that size is 26A.  I was under the impression it's rated for 35A because when I plug in the relevant info into the ABYC wire size calculator app, it says "10AWG or 2.5 sq mm"...  But apparently the metric value is calculated according to ISO, not ABYC, standards.  So at least somebody thinks it's rated for that..  I haven't been able to figure out what standard the app is referring to as "ISO", so I have no idea if that's something safe to rely on.  I guess I'll have be more careful about my usage than I thought!  Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

 

Ryan

SM 233 Iteration

Boston, MA, USA

 

 

On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 3:01 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

The variable start timer is a standard feature on most small marine AC units where the manufacturer would reasonably expect more than one unit to be installed on a boat.

 

If you have multiple AC units that are starting at the same time, dig into the manual.  You will most likely find a way to alter the timing so they stagger-start when powered up at the same time.

 

Climmia, Cruiseair, and MarinAire--among others--have this feature.

 

Bill Kinney

SM160, Harmonie

Grand Bahama Is.

 



greatketch@...
 

Ryan,

This looks like your cable...


Nothing new there you haven't already figured out...


Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Grand Bahama Is.


greatketch@...
 

Ryan,

This looks like your cable: 


Nothing you have not already figured out...

Bill Kinney
SM160,  Harmonie
Grand Bahama Is.


Ryan Meador
 

Hi Bill,
Thank you for that data sheet.  I had not discovered it before.  It contains one piece of info that is new: the temperature rating is 85°C.  That means, by the ABYC chart, that its current rating is somewhere between 15-23A.  I guess the system really is designed for 16A shore power.  I have been overloading it... all the more reason I need to upgrade!  I apologize to anyone who I misled with my incomplete information.

Thanks,
Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA


On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 2:13 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Ryan,


This looks like your cable...


Nothing new there you haven't already figured out...


Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Grand Bahama Is.