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[Amel Yacht Owners] Re: lifting with mizzen boom, climbing mizzen, and halyard lengths


Ryan Meador
 

I prefer to use two halyards, both of them for hauling (no static line).  I don't see the advantage of using a static line vs just putting the prussik around the mast, so I use the line the way a halyard is meant to be used.  If both halyards are reasonably tight, it also greatly reduces the shock loading on the remaining one if one fails.  If one of the halyards is internal, I'm not terribly worried about the other being external (like on the mainmast).  But I don't have that option on the mizzenmast, unless I do as Danny did and have a full-length mizzen halyard made up (and drop the sail).  Surely, Henri Amel had a solution to this problem?  Or was he just comfortable going up on a single, external halyard?  I like Paul's idea of a dyneema loop through the shackle... that takes out one failure mode, though still leaves the possibility of the rope failing (or being let go).

On the lone occasion I've had to go up a mast on a single (internal) halyard, I used a prussik-like knot as a fall arrester.  It seems to be pretty safe (it can definitely take my weight dropping from the max distance I'd be before moving the knot), but if you actually need to use it, you're now stuck up there... I don't have a good solution for that.  I hope the local fire department does (and I'm at the dock)!  Or maybe the Coast Guard could send a helicopter? :D

Duane, thank you for the reminder about the figure-8 knot to tie onto the halyard.  I shouldn't have used the phrase "clip on".

Does anyone have recommended lengths for the ballooner and utility halyards that differ from what I wrote in my first message?  Should I just add a few meters to each?

Thanks,
Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA

On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 5:45 PM, Ian parkianj@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

If I can’t use two halliards to ascend the mast I take two long loops of either tape or 8mm rope. A Prussik loop round the mast can be pushed up but holds under the tension of a fall. The second one is to attach above the spreaders so you never rely on just one attachment.
Prussik loops were used in climbing before ascenders were invented, but they do work around the dimension of a mast. Also useful as a foot loop to stand in if you want to get above the height of the mast to work.

Ian

Ocean Hobo SN 96



James Cromie
 

Whenever I go up the mast, I trail a static line attached to my harness that I can fix to the mast if I need to descend in the case of some problem that mandates coming off the winch system.  (deck hand incapacitated, mechanical failure of primary system, etc.)
For descending, one can use a munter hitch (or in my case, I keep a belay device always attached on my harness).  A munter hitch can be made without any additional hardware or devices except a carabiner (use locking) to attach to your harness.  This hitch is commonly used in mountain rescue scenarios.  

 It is important to always have a method of ascending / descending independently as a fall back plan.  

James
Soteria 
SM2K 347



On Apr 3, 2018, at 6:36 PM, Ryan Meador ryan.d.meador@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


I prefer to use two halyards, both of them for hauling (no static line).  I don't see the advantage of using a static line vs just putting the prussik around the mast, so I use the line the way a halyard is meant to be used.  If both halyards are reasonably tight, it also greatly reduces the shock loading on the remaining one if one fails.  If one of the halyards is internal, I'm not terribly worried about the other being external (like on the mainmast).  But I don't have that option on the mizzenmast, unless I do as Danny did and have a full-length mizzen halyard made up (and drop the sail).  Surely, Henri Amel had a solution to this problem?  Or was he just comfortable going up on a single, external halyard?  I like Paul's idea of a dyneema loop through the shackle... that takes out one failure mode, though still leaves the possibility of the rope failing (or being let go).

On the lone occasion I've had to go up a mast on a single (internal) halyard, I used a prussik-like knot as a fall arrester.  It seems to be pretty safe (it can definitely take my weight dropping from the max distance I'd be before moving the knot), but if you actually need to use it, you're now stuck up there... I don't have a good solution for that.  I hope the local fire department does (and I'm at the dock)!  Or maybe the Coast Guard could send a helicopter? :D

Duane, thank you for the reminder about the figure-8 knot to tie onto the halyard.  I shouldn't have used the phrase "clip on".

Does anyone have recommended lengths for the ballooner and utility halyards that differ from what I wrote in my first message?  Should I just add a few meters to each?

Thanks,
Ryan
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA

On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 5:45 PM, Ian parkianj@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

If I can’t use two halliards to ascend the mast I take two long loops of either tape or 8mm rope. A Prussik loop round the mast can be pushed up but holds under the tension of a fall. The second one is to attach above the spreaders so you never rely on just one attachment.
Prussik loops were used in climbing before ascenders were invented, but they do work around the dimension of a mast. Also useful as a foot loop to stand in if you want to get above the height of the mast to work.

Ian

Ocean Hobo SN 96





Ian Park
 

Hi James,
A climbing background always helps to think through a good backup system. When my son was 16 he went up the mast on a Jeaneau Sunfizz 40. It was an in mast 14mm halliard and it snapped as he was being lowered. He’s 42 now, thankfully as he was holding the intermediate stays and was just above the spreaders. It doesn’t matter if the halliard is in mast or external, you need a backup.
Two handed I often go up the mast on two separate halliards tied down tight on a pair of jumars. I always have a long thin line with me in case I forget something and have to lower a line to have sent up in a plastic bag.
Simple message is don’t rely on a single rope, and always have a way to get something sent up to you if you get stuck. A single rope haul is prone to all sorts of problems.

Ian

Ocean Hobo SN 96


James Alton
 

Ian,

   I am really glad to hear that your son was not injured when the 14mm halyard snapped.   I agree that  having a backup method of support when going aloft is a really good practice.  Normally it is just the wife and I  so I worry about her having to handle two separate halyards potentially increasing the odds of an accident.  Especially with a rolling boat, I think that staying focused on a single line could end up being safer than trying to handle two when short handed.  With three people it is of course quite simple to do and I do employ the second halyard. When it is just the two of us, I normally tie myself off to various points on the mast on the way up/ or slide a loop up the mast as appropriate for the particular spar as my backup.  I also go on the assumption that my wife could accidentally slip at any time so also keep a good grip on whatever is handy.  I maintain a good hold until she confirms that I have been tied off.  She has never slipped and neither have I but it only takes once to ruin your entire day….  

    I have never had a halyard break before but I am pretty careful about early replacement, good splices etc.  Even just basic Dacron sat-set in 14mm has a breaking strength of 11,700 pounds so I am normally much more concerned about the metal bits,  especially if they are stainless.  I have seen so many failures in stainless that often occurred at minimal loading in metal without obvious cracks.   The example I gave of the unused spinnaker block failing under light loading in my previous post was just one example.   With line, I feel pretty confident of the approximate strength after doing an inspection looking for chafe points etc. which I try to always do before going aloft.   I always tie across shackles and other hardware whenever possible to give me a backup as was suggested in an earlier post on this forum..very good advice IMO.  I also use either bronze or galvanized steel shackles on my bosun chair to attached the halyard rather than stainless.   One other thing that I always do before being hoisted, is to bounce as hard as possible in the bosuns chair before going up the mast which if nothing else makes me feel better about being aloft. (grin)  There are after all concealed attachments, stitching etc. in the bosuns chair itself to be concerned about as well and if they are going to break, better while I am down low..     Stay safe everyone and thanks for the discussion.  

Best,

James

SV Sueño
Maramu #220

On Apr 4, 2018, at 9:56 PM, Ian parkianj@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Hi James,
A climbing background always helps to think through a good backup system. When my son was 16 he went up the mast on a Jeaneau Sunfizz 40. It was an in mast 14mm halliard and it snapped as he was being lowered. He’s 42 now, thankfully as he was holding the intermediate stays and was just above the spreaders. It doesn’t matter if the halliard is in mast or external, you need a backup. 
Two handed I often go up the mast on two separate halliards tied down tight on a pair of jumars. I always have a long thin line with me in case I forget something and have to lower a line to have sent up in a plastic bag.
Simple message is don’t rely on a single rope, and always have a way to get something sent up to you if you get stuck. A single rope haul is prone to all sorts of problems.

Ian

Ocean Hobo SN 96



carcodespam@...
 

I use the Mastlift from Swiss Tec. See here:
https://www.swi-tec.de/en/108-mast-ascension


Mark Erdos
 

Is this anonymous posting a real person or spam on the group? Either way it is a very expensive way of getting up the mast with a lot of failure points.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Guadeloupe

www.creampuff.us

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2018 2:14 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: lifting with mizzen boom, climbing mizzen, and halyard lengths

 

 

I use the Mastlift from Swiss Tec. See here:
https://www.swi-tec.de/en/108-mast-ascension


carcodespam@...
 

Sorry Mark, my signature was not included in my message.
Yes, correct, the mastlift is expensive. I once bought it second hand for half of the new price and because I own the Sharki i have the small version 12 meters of the mastlift only.
After all I like it because I don't need a second person, it is very safe and usable for other tasks also.

Gerhard
Sharki #80