Topics

[Amel Yacht Owners] Upwind with staysail


 

Paul,

I will give you five things that I have learned that may help you.

1) Most of the staysails added to SMs happen early in ownership...after owning. a SM for a year or so, it is rarely added. You should understand why this is true.
2) Cruising isn't a race. In fact, a longer sail on a SM can result on more enjoyment.
3) Some 54 owners, who experience a malfunction in the Trinket, will wait years before repairs. 
4) The majority of circumnavigation miles will be downwind.
5) I have seen a Trinket added incorrectly to a SM resulting in serious problems.

I see you signed your email "still looking" so I'll add two more.
1) You should own your Amel for at least a year before you plan changes because you'll probably change your mind.
2) Finding a good SM is not a small task and the most important thing is not the price.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Sun, Apr 8, 2018, 01:54 paul.cooper74@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

An Amel-owner told me that using the "Trinkette", or staysail, on a SM gains 5-6 degrees of upwind performance.  Can anyone verify this claim?


Paul C.

still looking


Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

My SM2K came with a trinquette (Staysail).
The installation from the previous owner was well made:
http://www.nikimat.com/staysail.html
The attach point was going through the deck to the hull itself.
The rigging was not so good and I end up adding friction rings (not pictures).

Therefore, it was a pain.
When I wanted to tack the Genoa, I had to furl it in, then tack, then unfurl it.
Also I obtain the same performance partially deploying the Genoa “inside” the shroud.

As Bill mentioned, you should definitely wait at least 1 year before modify your Amel.
If you really think you need a stay sail, then you should chat with Heinz who owns Quetzal SM2K #292.
1) It is detachable so you do not have to furl the Genoa.
2) the forestay reaches the top of the mast eliminating the need for running back stay.

Sincerely, Alexandre





--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 4/8/18, Bill Rouse @billrouse [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Upwind with staysail
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Sunday, April 8, 2018, 8:36 AM


 









Paul,
I
will give you five things that I have learned that may help
you.
1) Most of the
staysails added to SMs happen early in ownership...after
owning. a SM for a year or so, it is rarely added. You
should understand why this is true.2) Cruising
isn't a race. In fact, a longer sail on a SM can result
on more enjoyment.
3) Some 54
owners, who experience a malfunction in the Trinket, will
wait years before repairs. 4) The majority of
circumnavigation miles will be downwind.5) I have
seen a Trinket added incorrectly to a SM resulting in
serious problems.
I
see you signed your email "still looking" so
I'll add two more.1) You should own your Amel
for at least a year before you plan changes because
you'll probably change your mind.2) Finding a
good SM is not a small task and the most important thing is
not the price.
Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander
Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island,
TX 77550
+1(832)
380-4970
On Sun, Apr
8, 2018, 01:54 paul.cooper74@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:















 









An Amel-owner told me that using the
"Trinkette", or staysail, on a SM gains 5-6
degrees of upwind performance.  Can anyone verify this
claim?
Paul
C..still looking


paul.cooper74@...
 

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful responses.  My previous boat (a PSC) had a removable inner forestay which I rigged for offshore sailing only.   Used, and loved, it for heavy weather not upwind sailing.  With the single rig, a double-reefed main and staysail combo was perfectly balanced in heavy winds.  I suspect with the ketch rig the advantages would not be so great, which I actually experienced on our friend's SM2K in 40+ kt winds in the med.  No trinkette and no problem.

Bill, thank you for your advice on new ownership.  So much food for thought, I think my brain must be getting obese.

Paul C.


paul.cooper74@...
 

Yes, I would not add a staysail, but the issue is that there are boats for sale with and without them so I am trying to get some real data about pros and cons to help me make decisions.  And I am getting exactly that here on this forum.  thanks.  


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Paul, watch for paralysis by analysis. Can be fatal.

Kind Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl 

On 09 April 2018 at 02:34 "paul.cooper74@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful responses.  My previous boat (a PSC) had a removable inner forestay which I rigged for offshore sailing only.   Used, and loved, it for heavy weather not upwind sailing.  With the single rig, a double-reefed main and staysail combo was perfectly balanced in heavy winds.  I suspect with the ketch rig the advantages would not be so great, which I actually experienced on our friend's SM2K in 40+ kt winds in the med.  No trinkette and no problem.


Bill, thank you for your advice on new ownership.  So much food for thought, I think my brain must be getting obese.

Paul C.

 


 


Bob Grey
 

Paul, I have a 55 that came with a staysail, it has been used very rarely and in fact never really been needed, it causes more problems being there than it would ever hope to be useful or effective. When I buy another Amel, it won’t have a staysail.

Bob Grey
Renaissance III

On Monday, April 9, 2018, 00:34, paul.cooper74@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:

 

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful responses.  My previous boat (a PSC) had a removable inner forestay which I rigged for offshore sailing only.   Used, and loved, it for heavy weather not upwind sailing.  With the single rig, a double-reefed main and staysail combo was perfectly balanced in heavy winds.  I suspect with the ketch rig the advantages would not be so great, which I actually experienced on our friend's SM2K in 40+ kt winds in the med.  No trinkette and no problem.


Bill, thank you for your advice on new ownership.  So much food for thought, I think my brain must be getting obese.

Paul C.


Mohammad Shirloo
 

Hi Paul;
 
On our 54, we find that the staysail in combination with the Genoa does help us point higher, or at least the boat can stay in the groove at closer wind angles. We have never measured it, so I do not have a great answer for you, but how much higher we can point does depend on the wind strength. The stronger the wind the higher we can point due to the staysail sheeted inboard of the deck and the small size of the sail needing the power to drive the boat up wind. This is not however a significant amount. I  think we are talking anything between 2-5 degrees depending on wind strength.
 
With wind over 30 knots, the staysail has sufficient power to fly alone and very comfortable. Especially if we are close hauled. The heal angle of the boat is significantly reduced, the effect of wind gusts on changing the heal angle is much less and the boat is well balanced and under control. In our opinion the staysail on the 54 is a great asset to have. You can set it in the heavy conditions and not have concerns about the safety of the rig and have sufficient power to approach hull speed in most points of sail, except maybe being close hauled. There have been a couple of occasions I can think of that we have had to slightly furl the staysail for comfort.
 
For us, the staysail is a great asset, that does get used, although not often and usually in winds over 25-30 knots.
 
Respectfully;
Mohammad Shirloo
323-633-2222 Cell
310-644-0908 Fax
 



From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2018 4:43 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Upwind with staysail

 

Paul, I have a 55 that came with a staysail, it has been used very rarely and in fact never really been needed, it causes more problems being there than it would ever hope to be useful or effective. When I buy another Amel, it won’t have a staysail.


Bob Grey
Renaissance III
55 #25

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

On Monday, April 9, 2018, 00:34, paul.cooper74@... [amelyachtowners]

 

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful responses.  My previous boat (a PSC) had a removable inner forestay which I rigged for offshore sailing only.   Used, and loved, it for heavy weather not upwind sailing.  With the single rig, a double-reefed main and staysail combo was perfectly balanced in heavy winds.  I suspect with the ketch rig the advantages would not be so great, which I actually experienced on our friend's SM2K in 40+ kt winds in the med.  No trinkette and no problem.


Bill, thank you for your advice on new ownership.  So much food for thought, I think my brain must be getting obese.

Paul C.


Peter Forbes
 

All,

We use our staysail on Carango [Amel 54] a lot and it definitely enables us to point higher. We use it with a 'barber hauler' too to get an even closer turning point closer to the centre line of the yacht. We use the running backstays which are I think vital to balance the pressure on the mast from the staysail.


Peter Forbes
0044 7836 209730
Carango  Sailing Ketch
Amel 54 #035
In Bermuda

On 9 Apr 2018, at 06:49, 'Mohammad Shirloo' mshirloo@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Hi Paul;
 
On our 54, we find that the staysail in combination with the Genoa does help us point higher, or at least the boat can stay in the groove at closer wind angles. We have never measured it, so I do not have a great answer for you, but how much higher we can point does depend on the wind strength. The stronger the wind the higher we can point due to the staysail sheeted inboard of the deck and the small size of the sail needing the power to drive the boat up wind. This is not however a significant amount. I  think we are talking anything between 2-5 degrees depending on wind strength.
 
With wind over 30 knots, the staysail has sufficient power to fly alone and very comfortable. Especially if we are close hauled. The heal angle of the boat is significantly reduced, the effect of wind gusts on changing the heal angle is much less and the boat is well balanced and under control. In our opinion the staysail on the 54 is a great asset to have. You can set it in the heavy conditions and not have concerns about the safety of the rig and have sufficient power to approach hull speed in most points of sail, except maybe being close hauled. There have been a couple of occasions I can think of that we have had to slightly furl the staysail for comfort.
 
For us, the staysail is a great asset, that does get used, although not often and usually in winds over 25-30 knots.
 
Respectfully;
Mohammad Shirloo
323-633-2222 Cell
310-644-0908 Fax
 


From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...] 
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2018 4:43 PM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Upwind with staysail

 

Paul, I have a 55 that came with a staysail, it has been used very rarely and in fact never really been needed, it causes more problems being there than it would ever hope to be useful or effective. When I buy another Amel, it won’t have a staysail.


Bob Grey
Renaissance III
55 #25

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

On Monday, April 9, 2018, 00:34, paul.cooper74@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful responses.  My previous boat (a PSC) had a removable inner forestay which I rigged for offshore sailing only.   Used, and loved, it for heavy weather not upwind sailing.  With the single rig, a double-reefed main and staysail combo was perfectly balanced in heavy winds.  I suspect with the ketch rig the advantages would not be so great, which I actually experienced on our friend's SM2K in 40+ kt winds in the med.  No trinkette and no problem.


Bill, thank you for your advice on new ownership.  So much food for thought, I think my brain must be getting obese.

Paul C.




Paul Osterberg
 

Paul

Hello!

My thoughts about stay sail.

We did invest in a stay sail, unfortunately the equipment we got was substandard and shape of sail very poor. However we have numerus times encounter conditions when we wish it had worked better. In The Mediterranean wind was often 25 to 30 knots true and “of course” up wind, in The Caribbean we had a lot of up wind sailing between the islands, the same going up from The Bahamas to The Chesapeake bay.  our new Genoa does not furl very well a fot or two, if we furl more the shape is not very good and we lose height. When true wind approaching +25 knots, we do not fancy going up wind but unfortunately, we have had much more of that then expected, so we will in connection with changing of our standing rig when in Le Marine, make sure we get a proper installation of our stay sail, alternatively invest in a smaller Genoa the 130% that has been discussed recently on the forum. BUT the engine in the SM is definitely the Genoa, I say up to 22-24 knots apparent wind a furled Genoa gives much higher speed and VMG then a stay sail, first at higher wind strengths one has a benefit of a stay sail. Concerning tacking we do not find it a problem with the stay sail, even before installing the stay sail we found it easier to tack when partly furling the Genoa, now we have to furl it a little bit more. I found it very rare that we do “short” tacking, I guess the shortest period between tacks on very rare occasions are 15 minutes, we often go several hours on the same tack so if we are forced to furl the Genoa at that time is a very minor obstacle. More of a obstacle is when taking down the Balooner, as one should do that with the wind forward of the beam the ballooner does blow in to the furled stay sail and the friction at high wind make it difficult to take down the balooner, however by furling the twin head sails and unfurl them so that the ballooner are in the wind shade of the Genoa one can relatively easy take down the ballooner.


Paul on SY Kerpa SM#259


  



Paul Cooper <paul.cooper74@...>
 

Awesome!  That's what I'm talking about.  Good first-hand information!  Thanks so much Peter, Paul and Mohammad.  Very helpful.

Best regards,
Paul C.

On Monday, April 9, 2018, 3:43:23 AM MDT, osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:


 

Paul


Hello!

My thoughts about stay sail.

We did invest in a stay sail, unfortunately the equipment we got was substandard and shape of sail very poor. However we have numerus times encounter conditions when we wish it had worked better. In The Mediterranean wind was often 25 to 30 knots true and “of course” up wind, in The Caribbean we had a lot of up wind sailing between the islands, the same going up from The Bahamas to The Chesapeake bay.  our new Genoa does not furl very well a fot or two, if we furl more the shape is not very good and we lose height. When true wind approaching +25 knots, we do not fancy going up wind but unfortunately, we have had much more of that then expected, so we will in connection with changing of our standing rig when in Le Marine, make sure we get a proper installation of our stay sail, alternatively invest in a smaller Genoa the 130% that has been discussed recently on the forum. BUT the engine in the SM is definitely the Genoa, I say up to 22-24 knots apparent wind a furled Genoa gives much higher speed and VMG then a stay sail, first at higher wind strengths one has a benefit of a stay sail. Concerning tacking we do not find it a problem with the stay sail, even before installing the stay sail we found it easier to tack when partly furling the Genoa, now we have to furl it a little bit more. I found it very rare that we do “short” tacking, I guess the shortest period between tacks on very rare occasions are 15 minutes, we often go several hours on the same tack so if we are forced to furl the Genoa at that time is a very minor obstacle. More of a obstacle is when taking down the Balooner, as one should do that with the wind forward of the beam the ballooner does blow in to the furled stay sail and the friction at high wind make it difficult to take down the balooner, however by furling the twin head sails and unfurl them so that the ballooner are in the wind shade of the Genoa one can relatively easy take down the ballooner.


Paul on SY Kerpa SM#259


  



 

I have a question for all users of an inner staysail on a SM:

Do you also have and use running backstays and do you use them when sailing with your inner foresail a/k/a Trinkette? 

Since the mainmast is not designed to take a significant load where the inner foresail will mount, I assume that the safe course of action is to do the same thing Amel did with the 54 and add running backstays from the mast attachment point of the added inner staysail. 

I would really hate to see someone buy a used SM which has an inner foresail which was "rigged" by the previous owner, but the owner chose not to rig running backstays. Replacing masts and rigging can be costly.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970





On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 2:25 PM, Paul Cooper paul.cooper74@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Awesome!  That's what I'm talking about.  Good first-hand information!  Thanks so much Peter, Paul and Mohammad.  Very helpful.

Best regards,
Paul C.

On Monday, April 9, 2018, 3:43:23 AM MDT, osterberg..paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 

Paul


Hello!

My thoughts about stay sail.

We did invest in a stay sail, unfortunately the equipment we got was substandard and shape of sail very poor. However we have numerus times encounter conditions when we wish it had worked better. In The Mediterranean wind was often 25 to 30 knots true and “of course” up wind, in The Caribbean we had a lot of up wind sailing between the islands, the same going up from The Bahamas to The Chesapeake bay.  our new Genoa does not furl very well a fot or two, if we furl more the shape is not very good and we lose height. When true wind approaching +25 knots, we do not fancy going up wind but unfortunately, we have had much more of that then expected, so we will in connection with changing of our standing rig when in Le Marine, make sure we get a proper installation of our stay sail, alternatively invest in a smaller Genoa the 130% that has been discussed recently on the forum. BUT the engine in the SM is definitely the Genoa, I say up to 22-24 knots apparent wind a furled Genoa gives much higher speed and VMG then a stay sail, first at higher wind strengths one has a benefit of a stay sail. Concerning tacking we do not find it a problem with the stay sail, even before installing the stay sail we found it easier to tack when partly furling the Genoa, now we have to furl it a little bit more. I found it very rare that we do “short” tacking, I guess the shortest period between tacks on very rare occasions are 15 minutes, we often go several hours on the same tack so if we are forced to furl the Genoa at that time is a very minor obstacle. More of a obstacle is when taking down the Balooner, as one should do that with the wind forward of the beam the ballooner does blow in to the furled stay sail and the friction at high wind make it difficult to take down the balooner, however by furling the twin head sails and unfurl them so that the ballooner are in the wind shade of the Genoa one can relatively easy take down the ballooner.


Paul on SY Kerpa SM#259


  




John Clark
 

Paul,
   I am at 18 months owning an SM.  Listen to the Bills and Alex.  In my opinion what is best is an unmolested Amel surveyed by an Amel savvy surveyor.   Unmolested means kept as origionally intended by Amel.  If Amel put it on then it is probably ok.

I was lucky and bought an unmolested older SM, she had some maintenance issues but nothing big ticket. I was more taken with the previous owners who owned her for 17 years.  They were consummate ocean sailors.  They were open and frank about what they did and didnt do. They took care of the parts that counted.  I feel better today having personally visited those "luxury" maintenance issues and knowing the status of the boat before sailing off.  A "perfect" boat is never really perfect...except Bebe...  ;)

I took care of post purchase maintenance and upfit as we sailed, just a little at a time. 


John
SV Annie
SM 37
Georgetown Exuma....provisioning for St Thomas USVI.





On Sun, Apr 8, 2018, 10:36 AM paul.cooper74@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful responses.  My previous boat (a PSC) had a removable inner forestay which I rigged for offshore sailing only.   Used, and loved, it for heavy weather not upwind sailing.  With the single rig, a double-reefed main and staysail combo was perfectly balanced in heavy winds.  I suspect with the ketch rig the advantages would not be so great, which I actually experienced on our friend's SM2K in 40+ kt winds in the med.  No trinkette and no problem.


Bill, thank you for your advice on new ownership.  So much food for thought, I think my brain must be getting obese.

Paul C.


Bob Grey
 

Bill, yes I used my running back stays which was anothe reason I did not like them, as you needed to leave the cockpit to set them up and change when you tacked.

Bob 

On Tuesday, April 10, 2018, 05:49, Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners] wrote:

 

I have a question for all users of an inner staysail on a SM:

Do you also have and use running backstays and do you use them when sailing with your inner foresail a/k/a Trinkette? 

Since the mainmast is not designed to take a significant load where the inner foresail will mount, I assume that the safe course of action is to do the same thing Amel did with the 54 and add running backstays from the mast attachment point of the added inner staysail. 

I would really hate to see someone buy a used SM which has an inner foresail which was "rigged" by the previous owner, but the owner chose not to rig running backstays. Replacing masts and rigging can be costly.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970





On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 2:25 PM, Paul Cooper paul.cooper74@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Awesome!  That's what I'm talking about.  Good first-hand information!  Thanks so much Peter, Paul and Mohammad.  Very helpful.

Best regards,
Paul C.

On Monday, April 9, 2018, 3:43:23 AM MDT, osterberg..paul.l@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups. com> wrote:


 

Paul


Hello!

My thoughts about stay sail.

We did invest in a stay sail, unfortunately the equipment we got was substandard and shape of sail very poor. However we have numerus times encounter conditions when we wish it had worked better. In The Mediterranean wind was often 25 to 30 knots true and “of course” up wind, in The Caribbean we had a lot of up wind sailing between the islands, the same going up from The Bahamas to The Chesapeake bay.  our new Genoa does not furl very well a fot or two, if we furl more the shape is not very good and we lose height. When true wind approaching +25 knots, we do not fancy going up wind but unfortunately, we have had much more of that then expected, so we will in connection with changing of our standing rig when in Le Marine, make sure we get a proper installation of our stay sail, alternatively invest in a smaller Genoa the 130% that has been discussed recently on the forum. BUT the engine in the SM is definitely the Genoa, I say up to 22-24 knots apparent wind a furled Genoa gives much higher speed and VMG then a stay sail, first at higher wind strengths one has a benefit of a stay sail. Concerning tacking we do not find it a problem with the stay sail, even before installing the stay sail we found it easier to tack when partly furling the Genoa, now we have to furl it a little bit more. I found it very rare that we do “short” tacking, I guess the shortest period between tacks on very rare occasions are 15 minutes, we often go several hours on the same tack so if we are forced to furl the Genoa at that time is a very minor obstacle. More of a obstacle is when taking down the Balooner, as one should do that with the wind forward of the beam the ballooner does blow in to the furled stay sail and the friction at high wind make it difficult to take down the balooner, however by furling the twin head sails and unfurl them so that the ballooner are in the wind shade of the Genoa one can relatively easy take down the ballooner.


Paul on SY Kerpa SM#259


  




Paul Cooper <paul.cooper74@...>
 

FWIT, on my PSC I used running backstays when setting the staysail in strong winds so as not to tempt fate.  It certainly seems a bad idea not to, and negligent not to have them installed by a rigger, unless of course the inner forestay goes to the masthead.

At that time I knew nothing of Amels, or any boat that you could sail entirely from the cockpit for that matter, so scampering around on deck was "normal" and I didn't object to having to rig the running backs.