Topics

[Amel Yacht Owners] 2nd Forestay on Super Maramu


ianjenkins1946 <ianjudyjenkins@hotmail.com>
 

Hi Eric , 
We have sailed nearly 60,000 miles in our SM , including two seasons in the Beagle channel and a rounding of Cape Horn . 
 We have sailed in the south Atlantic in 60 knots . 

We never felt the absence of a staysail . 

Ian and Judy, Pen Azen , SM 302, 
Preveza , Greece 


On 12 Apr 2018, at 20:38, eric@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Hi Amel-Owners!


For our bluewater-trip we are planning to install a 2nd forestay on our Super Maramu for strong conditions.


We are looking for recommendations and good solutions!? Where can we install it? Any mount-points? How was this made on your boat?

Our ship is from 1989, Nr. 12


Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Good afternoon Eric,

The addition of a Staysail comes often on the forum.

My boat came with one and I wish it was removable.

Here are pictures of how mine was attached.
http://www.nikimat.com/staysail.html
It was “trough” the deck and attached “to” the hull (as opposed to attached “to” the deck which would cause stress then eventually damages).
So if you really want to add one, I would definitely suggest going through the deck and attach it to the hull.

Therefore, as I first mentioned, it should be removable as it is a pain to tack with the staysail on the way.
You have to furl in the Genoa i order to tack and you are going to use the Genoa a lot more than the stay sail.

I think Heinz on Quetzal (SM2K #292) has a brilliant solution, as his “inner forestay” was removable and store near the shroud out of the way.
Another thing I like on Heinz’s vessel is that the inner reaches almost the top (as opposed a the 2nd spreader on my boat), so this way he doesn’t have to use running back stay.

Sincerely, Alexandre



--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 4/12/18, @gluexpirat [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] 2nd Forestay on Super Maramu
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Thursday, April 12, 2018, 12:37 PM


 









Hi Amel-Owners!
For our bluewater-trip we are planning
to install a 2nd forestay on our Super Maramu for strong
conditions.
We are looking for
recommendations and good solutions!? Where can we install
it? Any mount-points? How was this made on your
boat?Our ship is from 1989, Nr. 12


James Alton
 

Hi All,

   When first bought my Amel, I was thinking that I might add a staysail.  I liked the idea of having the smaller sail ready to use in higher winds as opposed to using a deeply reefed genoa.  Now that I have just two seasons on my boat, I have pretty much decided to keep the boat as designed.  While a staysail is a great addition to a sloop with respect to balance, the ketch rig really does not need the staysail for balance.  What I have done in place of a staysail is to have a working jib with a foam luff made for my boat which will set on the genoa furler.  This will be for the few  passages that would be to windward or strong winds were expected.  The boat is a joy to tack with the working jib.   For the rest  (most all of the time)  of the time, the original rig with the 150 Genoa seems like the best overall solution.   Those on the board that have advised newbies to sail their Amel as designed for at least a year are giving out some good advice IMO.  So far the only modifications that I have made to my boat are to undo the previous owners modifications.  (grin)

Best,

James

SV Sueño
Maramu #220

On Apr 12, 2018, at 1:59 PM, Ian & Judy ianjudyjenkins@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Hi Eric , 

We have sailed nearly 60,000 miles in our SM , including two seasons in the Beagle channel and a rounding of Cape Horn . 
 We have sailed in the south Atlantic in 60 knots . 

We never felt the absence of a staysail . 

Ian and Judy, Pen Azen , SM 302, 
Preveza , Greece 


On 12 Apr 2018, at 20:38, eric@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Hi Amel-Owners!


For our bluewater-trip we are planning to install a 2nd forestay on our Super Maramu for strong conditions.


We are looking for recommendations and good solutions!? Where can we install it? Any mount-points? How was this made on your boat?

Our ship is from 1989, Nr. 12




Paul Osterberg
 

Hello!

I’m curious how do you without a stay sail go upwind in true wind exceeding 25 knots, with occasional gusts of +30 knots, in reasonable comfort. We go comfortable up wind in 20 knots apparent wind with the full Genoa, but if gusts exceeding 24 knots apparent we are definitely over canvased. therefore we start to furl just before 20 knots apparent wind. When we encounter apparent wind of 30 knots we found very poor up wind performance with the Genoa heavily furled and VMG is very poor.

.

 

Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259


greatketch@...
 

Paul,

If you really can't carry the full genoa in more than 20 knots of APPARENT wind while close hauled, I would imagine there is something rather wrong with that sail's shape.  That should be 14 knots of true wind--or even a little less.  Something seems quite out of order.  That should not be a struggle for an AMEL SM.  Those numbers are far enough outside my experience I do not consider them a valid argument for retro-fitting a staysail.

On our boat, sailing close-hauled, as the wind picks up our first reaction is to furl away the mainsail at 23 knots of apparent wind or so, and carry on with full jib and mizzen.  The first reef into the jib we think about at 26 knots of apparent wind, and the second at 29-31 knots apparent.  Sea conditions also have a lot to do with the exact point at which we reef.

There is a multipart, and complex answer to how we go upwind in stronger winds.  Of course all boats start to lose some pointing ability once they start getting thrown around by waves and strong winds. But the ability to sail away from leeward dangers--even in strong winds--is a key aspect of boat safety.  We have never (yet!) felt like we were over-canvased without an option to make things better. 

It's important to in a discussion like this to be a bit rigorous with numbers.  It is easy for people's expectations to be quite divergent.  I expect in "easy" conditions for our boat's COG to be about 50-55º off the true wind.  We have never had a case where we were not able to have a COG better than 60º off the true wind.

My first comment on upwind performance is an admittedly smart-ass one:  Don't do that!  We will go very far out of our way, and wait a long time to avoid a lengthy beat to windward in 25+ knots.  But of course... stuff happens, and sometimes we are left with no choice.

We have been quite successful in making way working tightly closehauled in true winds of 25+ knots.  Most recently coming south in Buzzards Bay after exiting the Cape Cod Canal. We were making better VMG--much more comfortably--sailing at 58º to the true wind than we could motoring straight into a very nasty, very short, very steep chop. We did not feel at all like we were struggling at the limits of what the boat was  capable of, but higher winds than that, we haven't had the "pleasure" of needing to work upwind in.

Our genoa has a foam padded luff that appears to be well designed because we maintain a reasonable shape as we reef down. Without some way of "bulking up" the luff, sail shape goes all to heck as it is rolled. With a baggy headsail, upwind performance drops dramatically.

For sailing upwind in strong winds, even before you reef, be sure your jib halyard tension is sufficient.  Tightening the halyard counteracts the stretch in the sail that moves the draft back as the wind increases forces on the sail.  A draft too far aft is not immediately obvious to casual observation, but is does have a serious negative impact on your ability to make good progress to windward.  Jib halyard tension is an sailing adjustment, not something to "set and forget." 

For best upwind performance correct adjustment of the jib sheet lead position is critical.  Any  part of the sail from top to bottom that is not pulling evenly is just dragging you sideways. This is very much worth the effort to fuss with and get as close to perfect as you can.

As the genoa reefs, and the sheet lead moves forward, the effective sheeting angle widens a little bit.  That means the sail won't point quite as high, but... it also means the sail generates more power to punch through the bigger waves.

As the winds pick up, the boat's sailing balance needs to be managed. In strong winds, we typically sail with jib and mizzen.  If you try to sail with headsail only, you will likely experience a good deal of leehelm.  That will seriously impede progress to windward, and dragging the rudder through the water offset 10º or 20º will slow the boat down.  We use the mizzen not to generate extra boat speed, but to balance the boat so our helm is either neutral or with a little weather helm. Makes life a lot easier for the autopilot, too.

If we expect to be sailing in strong winds regularly, especially upwind, we have a smaller working jib that we use to replace the genoa.  A "Yankee" style sail with a high cut clew.  Great upwind, not so much downwind.  We used it extensively when we were working our way east in the Caribbean and it was very helpful.

I have always liked sailing a well designed cutter. I spent a fair amount of time sailing a Cabo Rico 38, and it was a sweet sailing boat.  But a cutter is most certainly NOT just a sloop with an extra stay added.  The mast is further back and usually shorter, the main sail is smaller, (usually) the headstay is out on a bowsprit, etc.  Cutters were developed not because they made it easy to carry smaller sails.  They come from the day when all sails were hanked on, so all sail changes were pretty much the same.  They were developed so that a boat could carry a big head sail WAY out in front, yet still be well balanced in strong winds when the mainsail was reefed.  On a well designed cutter, it is a piece of cake to tack even a large genoa with the inner forestay in place, if you know how.

In my opinion, an Amel SM does not make a good cutter.  It does not need staysail to balance as you reduce sail--the ketch rig takes care of it.  The distance between the mast and headstay is too small to fit a proper staysail and still leave room to tack the genoa, and the hull and rig were not designed to carry the loads. 

That was way more than I meant to write...  Sorry to be so long winded...

Bill Kinney
SM160 Harmonie
Great Guana Cay, Abacos, Bahamas

 
---In amelyachtowners@..., <osterberg.paul.l@...> wrote :

Hello!

I’m curious how do you without a stay sail go upwind in true wind exceeding 25 knots, with occasional gusts of +30 knots, in reasonable comfort. We go comfortable up wind in 20 knots apparent wind with the full Genoa, but if gusts exceeding 24 knots apparent we are definitely over canvased. therefore we start to furl just before 20 knots apparent wind. When we encounter apparent wind of 30 knots we found very poor up wind performance with the Genoa heavily furled and VMG is very poor.

.

 

Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Paul,

Going to windward, "more is less" in my opinion. Over-canvassed to windward is uncomfortable and inefficient. We have a heavy weather 90% jib with a high cut foot. Surprisingly going to windward In anything over 15 knots true it is as quick as the big genoa. But unless the windward work is long the effort of changing sails has me preferring to furl the genoa. .HOWEVER all sails are not created equal. I think this fact is partly why there are such differing opinions.

To have a genoa suitable to furl and use in strong winds to windward it needs to be made for the job. 1) The cloth must be heavy enough.Or be made of a robust fabric  2) The sailmaker needs to know what wind strength the sail will be used in, 3) the sail maker needs to know you intend to partly furl it for strong windward work. 3) The sail needs a properly designed foam padded luff. The cheap option of a rope sewn inside the luff is not acceptable.

Do the above and you will get a sail that will furl and retain a reasonable shape. Light cloth and no foam luff and you will have a sack, not a sail if you try to sail with it partly furled.

I gave Doyles in Auckland NZ these instructions when they made me a new genoa some years back. They used too light a cloth, and refused to put a foam luff in saying the rope option was just as good. The result: In light air up to 15 knots it was a beautiful sail. But in stronger wind a sail that distorted so badly they had to replace it. They fiddled around adjusting seams but in the end I had them on board in only 20 knots true and they gave up and made me a new sail. By the time it was made I was in Noumea and they had to ship it up to me.

Lastly, I agree with the comments regarding halyard tension and car position.

Regards

Danny. 

On 13 April 2018 at 22:48 "osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Hello!

I’m curious how do you without a stay sail go upwind in true wind exceeding 25 knots, with occasional gusts of +30 knots, in reasonable comfort. We go comfortable up wind in 20 knots apparent wind with the full Genoa, but if gusts exceeding 24 knots apparent we are definitely over canvased. therefore we start to furl just before 20 knots apparent wind. When we encounter apparent wind of 30 knots we found very poor up wind performance with the Genoa heavily furled and VMG is very poor.

.

 

Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259

 


 


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Sorry, forgot to put SM 299 Ocean Pearl in my signature to the below post. 

Regards

Danny



Hi Paul,

Going to windward, "more is less" in my opinion. Over-canvassed to windward is uncomfortable and inefficient. We have a heavy weather 90% jib with a high cut foot. Surprisingly going to windward In anything over 15 knots true it is as quick as the big genoa. But unless the windward work is long the effort of changing sails has me preferring to furl the genoa. .HOWEVER all sails are not created equal. I think this fact is partly why there are such differing opinions.

To have a genoa suitable to furl and use in strong winds to windward it needs to be made for the job. 1) The cloth must be heavy enough.Or be made of a robust fabric  2) The sailmaker needs to know what wind strength the sail will be used in, 3) the sail maker needs to know you intend to partly furl it for strong windward work. 3) The sail needs a properly designed foam padded luff. The cheap option of a rope sewn inside the luff is not acceptable.

Do the above and you will get a sail that will furl and retain a reasonable shape. Light cloth and no foam luff and you will have a sack, not a sail if you try to sail with it partly furled.

I gave Doyles in Auckland NZ these instructions when they made me a new genoa some years back. They used too light a cloth, and refused to put a foam luff in saying the rope option was just as good. The result: In light air up to 15 knots it was a beautiful sail. But in stronger wind a sail that distorted so badly they had to replace it. They fiddled around adjusting seams but in the end I had them on board in only 20 knots true and they gave up and made me a new sail. By the time it was made I was in Noumea and they had to ship it up to me.

Lastly, I agree with the comments regarding halyard tension and car position.

Regards

Danny. 

On 13 April 2018 at 22:48 "osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Hello!

I’m curious how do you without a stay sail go upwind in true wind exceeding 25 knots, with occasional gusts of +30 knots, in reasonable comfort. We go comfortable up wind in 20 knots apparent wind with the full Genoa, but if gusts exceeding 24 knots apparent we are definitely over canvased. therefore we start to furl just before 20 knots apparent wind. When we encounter apparent wind of 30 knots we found very poor up wind performance with the Genoa heavily furled and VMG is very poor.

.

 

Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259

 


 


James Alton
 

Bill,

   That was an amazing post, chock full of useful information and very well written.  Thanks for sharing.

James

SV Sueño
Maramu #220


   

On Apr 13, 2018, at 12:44 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Paul,


If you really can't carry the full genoa in more than 20 knots of APPARENT wind while close hauled, I would imagine there is something rather wrong with that sail's shape.  That should be 14 knots of true wind--or even a little less.  Something seems quite out of order.  That should not be a struggle for an AMEL SM.  Those numbers are far enough outside my experience I do not consider them a valid argument for retro-fitting a staysail.

On our boat, sailing close-hauled, as the wind picks up our first reaction is to furl away the mainsail at 23 knots of apparent wind or so, and carry on with full jib and mizzen.  The first reef into the jib we think about at 26 knots of apparent wind, and the second at 29-31 knots apparent.  Sea conditions also have a lot to do with the exact point at which we reef.

There is a multipart, and complex answer to how we go upwind in stronger winds.  Of course all boats start to lose some pointing ability once they start getting thrown around by waves and strong winds. But the ability to sail away from leeward dangers--even in strong winds--is a key aspect of boat safety.  We have never (yet!) felt like we were over-canvased without an option to make things better. 

It's important to in a discussion like this to be a bit rigorous with numbers.  It is easy for people's expectations to be quite divergent.  I expect in "easy" conditions for our boat's COG to be about 50-55º off the true wind.  We have never had a case where we were not able to have a COG better than 60º off the true wind.

My first comment on upwind performance is an admittedly smart-ass one:  Don't do that!  We will go very far out of our way, and wait a long time to avoid a lengthy beat to windward in 25+ knots.  But of course... stuff happens, and sometimes we are left with no choice.

We have been quite successful in making way working tightly closehauled in true winds of 25+ knots.  Most recently coming south in Buzzards Bay after exiting the Cape Cod Canal. We were making better VMG--much more comfortably--sailing at 58º to the true wind than we could motoring straight into a very nasty, very short, very steep chop. We did not feel at all like we were struggling at the limits of what the boat was  capable of, but higher winds than that, we haven't had the "pleasure" of needing to work upwind in.

Our genoa has a foam padded luff that appears to be well designed because we maintain a reasonable shape as we reef down. Without some way of "bulking up" the luff, sail shape goes all to heck as it is rolled. With a baggy headsail, upwind performance drops dramatically.

For sailing upwind in strong winds, even before you reef, be sure your jib halyard tension is sufficient.  Tightening the halyard counteracts the stretch in the sail that moves the draft back as the wind increases forces on the sail.  A draft too far aft is not immediately obvious to casual observation, but is does have a serious negative impact on your ability to make good progress to windward.  Jib halyard tension is an sailing adjustment, not something to "set and forget." 

For best upwind performance correct adjustment of the jib sheet lead position is critical.  Any  part of the sail from top to bottom that is not pulling evenly is just dragging you sideways. This is very much worth the effort to fuss with and get as close to perfect as you can.

As the genoa reefs, and the sheet lead moves forward, the effective sheeting angle widens a little bit.  That means the sail won't point quite as high, but... it also means the sail generates more power to punch through the bigger waves.

As the winds pick up, the boat's sailing balance needs to be managed. In strong winds, we typically sail with jib and mizzen.  If you try to sail with headsail only, you will likely experience a good deal of leehelm.  That will seriously impede progress to windward, and dragging the rudder through the water offset 10º or 20º will slow the boat down.  We use the mizzen not to generate extra boat speed, but to balance the boat so our helm is either neutral or with a little weather helm. Makes life a lot easier for the autopilot, too.

If we expect to be sailing in strong winds regularly, especially upwind, we have a smaller working jib that we use to replace the genoa.  A "Yankee" style sail with a high cut clew.  Great upwind, not so much downwind.  We used it extensively when we were working our way east in the Caribbean and it was very helpful.

I have always liked sailing a well designed cutter. I spent a fair amount of time sailing a Cabo Rico 38, and it was a sweet sailing boat.  But a cutter is most certainly NOT just a sloop with an extra stay added.  The mast is further back and usually shorter, the main sail is smaller, (usually) the headstay is out on a bowsprit, etc.  Cutters were developed not because they made it easy to carry smaller sails.  They come from the day when all sails were hanked on, so all sail changes were pretty much the same.  They were developed so that a boat could carry a big head sail WAY out in front, yet still be well balanced in strong winds when the mainsail was reefed.  On a well designed cutter, it is a piece of cake to tack even a large genoa with the inner forestay in place, if you know how.

In my opinion, an Amel SM does not make a good cutter.  It does not need staysail to balance as you reduce sail--the ketch rig takes care of it.  The distance between the mast and headstay is too small to fit a proper staysail and still leave room to tack the genoa, and the hull and rig were not designed to carry the loads. 

That was way more than I meant to write...  Sorry to be so long winded...

Bill Kinney
SM160 Harmonie
Great Guana Cay, Abacos, Bahamas

 
---In amelyachtowners@..., wrote :

Hello!

I’m curious how do you without a stay sail go upwind in true wind exceeding 25 knots, with occasional gusts of +30 knots, in reasonable comfort. We go comfortable up wind in 20 knots apparent wind with the full Genoa, but if gusts exceeding 24 knots apparent we are definitely over canvased. therefore we start to furl just before 20 knots apparent wind. When we encounter apparent wind of 30 knots we found very poor up wind performance with the Genoa heavily furled and VMG is very poor.

.

 

Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259




Paul Osterberg
 

Bill, Danny
Thank you for your input.
I know my genoa have room for improvement, maybe we invest in a new 130% genoa to use when sailing in areas where strong winds are common.  Do not fancy changing sails under way.
Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259


karkauai
 

Hi Paul.
I have a 110% Genoa with a high cut clew.  It is plenty in 20-40 kt winds.  My 135% Genoa works OK in lighter air, but I wish I'd gotten the 150%.  I think with the luff foam it would be fine in up to 25kts.
If you are going with only one Genoa, the 135 is OK. If it's going to be your heavy weather jib, I'd go with a 90-110%.

Kent
S/V Kristy
Bill, Danny
Thank you for your input.
I know my genoa have room for improvement, maybe we invest in a new 130% genoa to use when sailing in areas where strong winds are common.  Do not fancy changing sails under way.
Paul on S/Y Kerpa


 

Danny,

Your experience with Doyle Sails doesn't surprise me. They also seem to be very ridgid in what they will do in other locations, as well. I believe that they feel that they know better than their customers. It is really a shame, but it is understandable that Doyle should know more than most of their customers...in your case, they didn't...and rope does not equal foam! I suspect that they purposefully reduce options to be able to streamline production in their low-cost production facilities. And, how can you blame them when 80% of sails are purchased based on a combination of brand and price.

The choice of sailmakers, sailcloth, construction, and options is complex and is not generally boat specific. It's a combination of boat, sailing destinations, owner preference, required life expectancy of the sails, and specific owner preferences. I believe all of Henri's choices for the original standard suite of 5 sails for the SM was perfect for the vast majority of world cruising SM owners, and I believe a few improvements could have been made on subsequent models for world cruising.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 14:35 Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi Paul,

Going to windward, "more is less" in my opinion. Over-canvassed to windward is uncomfortable and inefficient. We have a heavy weather 90% jib with a high cut foot. Surprisingly going to windward In anything over 15 knots true it is as quick as the big genoa. But unless the windward work is long the effort of changing sails has me preferring to furl the genoa. .HOWEVER all sails are not created equal. I think this fact is partly why there are such differing opinions.

To have a genoa suitable to furl and use in strong winds to windward it needs to be made for the job. 1) The cloth must be heavy enough.Or be made of a robust fabric  2) The sailmaker needs to know what wind strength the sail will be used in, 3) the sail maker needs to know you intend to partly furl it for strong windward work. 3) The sail needs a properly designed foam padded luff. The cheap option of a rope sewn inside the luff is not acceptable.

Do the above and you will get a sail that will furl and retain a reasonable shape. Light cloth and no foam luff and you will have a sack, not a sail if you try to sail with it partly furled.

I gave Doyles in Auckland NZ these instructions when they made me a new genoa some years back. They used too light a cloth, and refused to put a foam luff in saying the rope option was just as good. The result: In light air up to 15 knots it was a beautiful sail. But in stronger wind a sail that distorted so badly they had to replace it. They fiddled around adjusting seams but in the end I had them on board in only 20 knots true and they gave up and made me a new sail. By the time it was made I was in Noumea and they had to ship it up to me.

Lastly, I agree with the comments regarding halyard tension and car position.

Regards

Danny. 

On 13 April 2018 at 22:48 "osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Hello!

I’m curious how do you without a stay sail go upwind in true wind exceeding 25 knots, with occasional gusts of +30 knots, in reasonable comfort. We go comfortable up wind in 20 knots apparent wind with the full Genoa, but if gusts exceeding 24 knots apparent we are definitely over canvased. therefore we start to furl just before 20 knots apparent wind. When we encounter apparent wind of 30 knots we found very poor up wind performance with the Genoa heavily furled and VMG is very poor.

.

 

Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259

 


 


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Paul,

I would think you would change sails as often with a 130/155 combination as I do with a 90/155 and you would not have the advantage of a genuine heavy weather sail on board. The 130 would not replace the 155. If your 155 is towards the end of it's life I wonder if you should consider a new one along the lines I talked about. I furl all the time and once Doyles built me the right sail I got good results. Interestingly when my old 155 was over 40,000 miles old and well past its best I got better performance from the 90,even in 10 knots, other than down wind so it was used most of the time.

Kind Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl


On 14 April 2018 at 21:54 "osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Bill, Danny

Thank you for your input.
I know my genoa have room for improvement, maybe we invest in a new 130% genoa to use when sailing in areas where strong winds are common.  Do not fancy changing sails under way.
Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259

 


 


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Thanks Bill,

Your supportive comments are appreciated. I always hesitate to post criticism of specific businesses but in this case the experience was a good illustration of the need to have properly designed and built sails. And after my unrelenting insistence Doyles did build me the sail I asked for in the first place. 

Kind Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl 

On 15 April 2018 at 01:28 "Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Danny,

Your experience with Doyle Sails doesn't surprise me. They also seem to be very ridgid in what they will do in other locations, as well. I believe that they feel that they know better than their customers. It is really a shame, but it is understandable that Doyle should know more than most of their customers...in your case, they didn't...and rope does not equal foam! I suspect that they purposefully reduce options to be able to streamline production in their low-cost production facilities. And, how can you blame them when 80% of sails are purchased based on a combination of brand and price.

The choice of sailmakers, sailcloth, construction, and options is complex and is not generally boat specific. It's a combination of boat, sailing destinations, owner preference, required life expectancy of the sails, and specific owner preferences. I believe all of Henri's choices for the original standard suite of 5 sails for the SM was perfect for the vast majority of world cruising SM owners, and I believe a few improvements could have been made on subsequent models for world cruising.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 14:35 Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

 

Hi Paul,

Going to windward, "more is less" in my opinion. Over-canvassed to windward is uncomfortable and inefficient. We have a heavy weather 90% jib with a high cut foot. Surprisingly going to windward In anything over 15 knots true it is as quick as the big genoa. But unless the windward work is long the effort of changing sails has me preferring to furl the genoa. .HOWEVER all sails are not created equal. I think this fact is partly why there are such differing opinions.

To have a genoa suitable to furl and use in strong winds to windward it needs to be made for the job. 1) The cloth must be heavy enough.Or be made of a robust fabric  2) The sailmaker needs to know what wind strength the sail will be used in, 3) the sail maker needs to know you intend to partly furl it for strong windward work. 3) The sail needs a properly designed foam padded luff. The cheap option of a rope sewn inside the luff is not acceptable.

Do the above and you will get a sail that will furl and retain a reasonable shape. Light cloth and no foam luff and you will have a sack, not a sail if you try to sail with it partly furled.

I gave Doyles in Auckland NZ these instructions when they made me a new genoa some years back. They used too light a cloth, and refused to put a foam luff in saying the rope option was just as good. The result: In light air up to 15 knots it was a beautiful sail. But in stronger wind a sail that distorted so badly they had to replace it. They fiddled around adjusting seams but in the end I had them on board in only 20 knots true and they gave up and made me a new sail. By the time it was made I was in Noumea and they had to ship it up to me.

Lastly, I agree with the comments regarding halyard tension and car position.

Regards

Danny. 

On 13 April 2018 at 22:48 "osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Hello!

I’m curious how do you without a stay sail go upwind in true wind exceeding 25 knots, with occasional gusts of +30 knots, in reasonable comfort. We go comfortable up wind in 20 knots apparent wind with the full Genoa, but if gusts exceeding 24 knots apparent we are definitely over canvased. therefore we start to furl just before 20 knots apparent wind. When we encounter apparent wind of 30 knots we found very poor up wind performance with the Genoa heavily furled and VMG is very poor.

.

 

Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259

 


 

 

 

 


 


greatketch@...
 

Everything Bill R said, and then some...

If I was in the market for a new genoa, I would immediately be concerned if I was asked what size genoa I wanted (130, 140, 150, etc).  If the sailmaker did not know what the size of the original sail was for this boat, I would find someone who did.  

At some point I would be sure to ask how the sail they intended to build would work with the Amel downwind poles. If they did not understand how those poles work, and did not know the sizes of the poles, I would go somewhere else. There is more to an Amel genoa than just size.  For example, the clew has to be at the right height for the downwind rig to work as it was designed.  I know this thread started with questions about upwind work, but we do a LOT more miles downwind than we do close hauled so downwind performance is important to me. 

It is likely a tall order to expect a random sailmaker to have a detailed understanding of how a Super Maramu is different from other boats they make sails for, and why just running off the dimensions in their rig database is NOT the right answer.  It is a tall order, but it is one I'll insist on.  

When I needed a new ballooner, I talked to several lofts, and got a LOT of responses that were some version of, "You need a WHAT?"  That would pretty much be the end of our discussion.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Great Guana Cay, Abacos, Bahamas


Paul Osterberg
 

Danny!
My "old" Genoa is less than 2 years so it still has a few miles left. but I agree with you that a poor 150% can give less performance than a good 100%, have experienced that a few times on previous boats . I will continue with my "old" Genoa cruising North towards Nova Scotia this summer, then decide upon action before heading down to the Caribbean this fall.
Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Paul,

that's a bit new to throw away. Car position, halyard tension and leach cord are significant adjustments for performance as I am sure you know but if the sail is poorly shaped or of too light a cloth there is a limit as to what you can achieve.Do you have a foam luff. As I said in my previous it is quite possible to get satisfactory performance to windward in stronger winds with a partly furled 155%.but if its a slog of over 24 hours I change to my 90%

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 16 April 2018 at 20:17 "osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Danny!

My "old" Genoa is less than 2 years so it still has a few miles left. but I agree with you that a poor 150% can give less performance than a good 100%, have experienced that a few times on previous boats . I will continue with my "old" Genoa cruising North towards Nova Scotia this summer, then decide upon action before heading down to the Caribbean this fall.
Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259

 


 


James Alton
 

Danny,
   Some great discussion!   I am curious about how deep you feelnthat you can reef a well made Genoa and still have good shape?    Also,  I was wondering your thoughts on how much using a well made Genoa reefed might be related to the loss of sail shape over time?   

Best,

James
SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Apr 16, 2018 3:05 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi Paul,

that's a bit new to throw away. Car position, halyard tension and leach cord are significant adjustments for performance as I am sure you know but if the sail is poorly shaped or of too light a cloth there is a limit as to what you can achieve.Do you have a foam luff. As I said in my previous it is quite possible to get satisfactory performance to windward in stronger winds with a partly furled 155%.but if its a slog of over 24 hours I change to my 90%

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 16 April 2018 at 20:17 "osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Danny!

My "old" Genoa is less than 2 years so it still has a few miles left. but I agree with you that a poor 150% can give less performance than a good 100%, have experienced that a few times on previous boats . I will continue with my "old" Genoa cruising North towards Nova Scotia this summer, then decide upon action before heading down to the Caribbean this fall.
Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259

 


 



Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi James,

A furling headsail, if it is to be used partly furled must have a properly shaped and constructed foam pad at the luff. Many sail makers use a rope sewn in just behind the luff as an alternative. It is not effective because it is not shaped to take up the extra draft in the middle of the sail.

That's that one dealt with. If you have a sail with the afore descried foam pad at the luff furling does no damage as the sails shape is maintained. Without the foam pad the sails shape would be terrible and damage would be done.

Next point. What wind strength is the sail maker envisioning when designing this huge sail. I would guess 15 knots true and they use cloth of a weight matching this with some margin for error. I told the sailmaker I could be using the sail reefed in 40 knots true and that they were to use a cloth weighted for that. As I said in my previous they ignored me and used a lighter cloth and rope on the luff and had to replace the sail.

As I said in my previous, if I have a long period of on the wind sailing in strong wind I change down to my 90%. The ability to sail furled is to allow rapid change as the weather does what it does best...change

When I raced yachts I always told sailmaker to use a heavier/stronger stretch resistant  cloth on all my sails as I reasoned that the short term benefit of a lighter cloth would soon be lost as the sail distorted with age. Not being a hot shot that had sponsors replacing my sails each regatta I wanted years of life not months.

This certainly applies to my cruising now. I note many of the SM I see with their head-sails furled  have a much smaller bundle than mine. I guess they have a much lighter cloth than mine.

I think this answers your question as to how using the sail partly furled would be related to loss of sail shape over time. If the above is followed, very little to none.

Kind Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 17 April 2018 at 15:02 "James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Danny,
   Some great discussion!   I am curious about how deep you feelnthat you can reef a well made Genoa and still have good shape?    Also,  I was wondering your thoughts on how much using a well made Genoa reefed might be related to the loss of sail shape over time?   

Best,

James
SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Apr 16, 2018 3:05 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

 

Hi Paul,

that's a bit new to throw away. Car position, halyard tension and leach cord are significant adjustments for performance as I am sure you know but if the sail is poorly shaped or of too light a cloth there is a limit as to what you can achieve.Do you have a foam luff. As I said in my previous it is quite possible to get satisfactory performance to windward in stronger winds with a partly furled 155%.but if its a slog of over 24 hours I change to my 90%

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 16 April 2018 at 20:17 "osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Danny!

My "old" Genoa is less than 2 years so it still has a few miles left. but I agree with you that a poor 150% can give less performance than a good 100%, have experienced that a few times on previous boats . I will continue with my "old" Genoa cruising North towards Nova Scotia this summer, then decide upon action before heading down to the Caribbean this fall.
Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259

 


 

 

 


 


James Alton
 

Danny,

   Thanks for sharing your opinions on this subject.  My working jib has the foam luff, and is tri-radial cut in Hydranet and I think that it does reef well.  I think that my working jib however is a larger roll (hence more windage) than my Dacron 150 Genoa without the foam so there always seems to be a price.  

 Best,

James SV Sueño
Maramu #220

On Apr 17, 2018, at 6:36 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Hi James,

A furling headsail, if it is to be used partly furled must have a properly shaped and constructed foam pad at the luff. Many sail makers use a rope sewn in just behind the luff as an alternative. It is not effective because it is not shaped to take up the extra draft in the middle of the sail.

That's that one dealt with. If you have a sail with the afore descried foam pad at the luff furling does no damage as the sails shape is maintained. Without the foam pad the sails shape would be terrible and damage would be done.

Next point. What wind strength is the sail maker envisioning when designing this huge sail. I would guess 15 knots true and they use cloth of a weight matching this with some margin for error. I told the sailmaker I could be using the sail reefed in 40 knots true and that they were to use a cloth weighted for that. As I said in my previous they ignored me and used a lighter cloth and rope on the luff and had t o replace the sail. 

As I said in my previous, if I have a long period of on the wind sailing in strong wind I change down to my 90%. The ability to sail furled is to allow rapid change as the weather does what it does best...change

When I raced yachts I always told sailmaker to use a heavier/stronger stretch resistant  cloth on all my sails as I reasoned that the short term benefit of a lighter cloth would soon be lost as the sail distorted with age. Not being a hot shot that had sponsors replacing my sails each regatta I wanted years of life not months.

This certainly applies to my cruising now. I note many of the SM I see with their head-sails furled  have a much smaller bundle than mine. I guess they have a much lighter cloth than mine.

I think this answers your question as to how using the sail partly furled would be related to loss of sail shape over time. If the above is followed, very little to none.

Kind Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 17 April 2018 at 15:02 "James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Danny,
   Some great discussion!   I am curious about how deep you feelnthat you can reef a well made Genoa and still have good shape?    Also,  I was wondering your thoughts on how much using a well made Genoa reefed might be related to the loss of sail shape over time?   

Best,

James
SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Apr 16, 2018 3:05 PM, "Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms @xtra.co.nz [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

 

Hi Paul,

that's a bit new to throw away. Car position, halyard tension and leach cord are significant adjustments for performance as I am sure you know but if the sail is poorly shaped or of too light a cloth there is a limit as to what you can achieve.Do you have a foam luff. As I said in my previous it is quite possible to get satisfactory performance to windward in stronger winds with a partly furled 155%.but if its a slog of over 24 hours I change to my 90%

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 16 April 2018 at 20:17 "osterberg.paul.l@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Danny!

My "old" Genoa is less than 2 years so it still has a few miles left. bu t I agree with you that a poor 150% can give less performance than a good 100%, have experienced that a few times on previous boats . I will continue with my "old" Genoa cruising North towards Nova Scotia this summer, then decide upon action before heading down to the Caribbean this fall.
Paul on S/Y Kerpa SM#259

 


 

 

 


 




Steve Bode
 

This is a very interesting thread! I love the way Intention sails in all wind conditions! Last summer, we were punching into 30+ knots apparent with two reefs in the genoa, no main and one reef in the mizzen and she was ever so happy to do so. I was very pleased. 

Sorry if this is not the right thread for this question, but I see several people in this thread mention a 90% jib. That's what I'd like because sailing in the med, we often need to punch into the wind for days and a 90 would be built for the task. The issue is when we reef the genoa, while the sail shape is okay, the leads are so far outboard that we can't point. Again, I am NOT interested in rigging a staysail stay. I would drop the genoa and raise the 'blade' instead of the Genoa.
So, here are my questions;

1. Would buying a new 90 and laying a new track on the deck that was more inboard be a good idea or not?

2. Has anyone out there actually done something like this on their SM and what was your experience? I saw pictures of a SM with a self-tacking track setup (SV Nomad) and a staysail. Mind you, I am NOT interested in a staysail, I would drop the jib and rig the 90 on days when I know I'm headed upwind all day...or all week.

Many thanks for your input.

THIS IS SV NOMAD 


--
Steve Bode
Capt. SV Intention
Amel SM #117 (1994)
+1 415 710-6659 Mobile/Text/WhatsApp
facebook.com/stevebodesanfrancisco
svintention.com