[Amel Yacht Owners] Rivets for Head sail furling foil


karkauai
 

I used1/4 inch rivets.  No problems with installation or in the 3 years since
Kent
SM 243
KRISTY


James Alton
 

Kent,

   Can you tell me if the 1/4” rivets fit the original holes in your furler, or did you need to drill them out some?   I will be changing my headstay this year so need to drill out the rivets and would like to bring the correct size with me to the boat.

Thanks,

James
SV Sueño
Maramu #220

On May 6, 2018, at 10:39 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

I used1/4 inch rivets.  No problems with installation or in the 3 years since

Kent
SM 243
KRISTY




VLADIMIR SONSEV
 

James,

The rivets were drilled out. The holes are 7 mm diameter. 1/4" diameter rivets are small for 7mm holls, but I can't  find rivets that are 7 mm in diameter.

Does anybody have a drawing of a threaded backing plate that can be inserted in the foil? Perhaps using screws and the backing plats are the best sollution. Does Amel sell the backing plats?

Vladimir
S/V "Life is Good"
SM 345


On Sun, May 6, 2018, 23:42 James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Kent,


   Can you tell me if the 1/4” rivets fit the original holes in your furler, or did you need to drill them out some?   I will be changing my headstay this year so need to drill out the rivets and would like to bring the correct size with me to the boat.

Thanks,

James
SV Sueño
Maramu #220

On May 6, 2018, at 10:39 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

I used1/4 inch rivets.  No problems with installation or in the 3 years since

Kent
SM 243
KRISTY




James Alton
 

Vladimir,

   Thank you for the information.  The Mil-spec maximum hole size for a 1/4” rivet is 265 thousandths and 7mm is 275.5 thousandths.  I wonder if the hole size you are reporting has been increased by drilling out the rivet?  Or if this hole is being measured in the aluminum extrusion, perhaps the riveting process enlarged the hole some?  I am wondering if a 1/4” rivet could be preswelled the additional 10 thousandths to completely fill the hole?  I will run this one by an engineering friend to get his opinion.

   It would seem that a single pc. of aluminum could be machined to insert into the inside of the extrusion to provide something to tap into if needed.  The hole size to tap for an 8mm bolt is 269 thousandths so very close to the hole size that you have.  I am unclear if the Amel Owners that are replacing the original rivets with the 8mm bolts are simply tapping the existing holes in the two parts being joined or are inserting some sort of a backing?  Could someone enlighten me on whether a backing plate of some sort is needed to convert the original furler rivets to the 8mm bolts?  This change would be nice so that I would not have to drill out the rivets each time the furler needed to be removed.  

Best of luck,

James

SV  Sueño
Maramu #220

On May 7, 2018, at 7:17 AM, Vladimir Sonsev sonsev52@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


James,

The rivets were drilled out. The holes are 7 mm diameter. 1/4" diameter rivets are small for 7mm holls, but I can't  find rivets that are 7 mm in diameter.

Does anybody have a drawing of a threaded backing plate that can be inserted in the foil? Perhaps using screws and the backing plats are the best sollution. Does Amel sell the backing plats?

Vladimir
S/V "Life is Good"
SM 345


On Sun, May 6, 2018, 23:42 James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Kent,


   Can you tell me if the 1/4” rivets fit the original holes in your furler, or did you need to drill them out some?   I will be changing my headstay this year so need to drill out the rivets and would like to bring the correct size with me to the boat.

Thanks,

James
SV Sueño
Maramu #220

On May 6, 2018, at 10:39 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

I used1/4 inch rivets.  No problems with installation or in the 3 years since

Kent
SM 243
KRISTY







karkauai
 

I drilled out the old rivets using a 1/4inch bit, James.

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
SM243

On May 6, 2018, at 11:42 PM, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,


   Can you tell me if the 1/4” rivets fit the original holes in your furler, or did you need to drill them out some?   I will be changing my headstay this year so need to drill out the rivets and would like to bring the correct size with me to the boat.

Thanks,

James
SV Sueño
Maramu #220

On May 6, 2018, at 10:39 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

I used1/4 inch rivets.  No problems with installation or in the 3 years since

Kent
SM 243
KRISTY




James Alton
 

Kent,
   Thanks for this information.  I hope that I can put things back together just as you did.   I would like to put back the aluminum rivets since they won't be a dissimilar metal and cannot unscrew with use.  
   I am finding out by the way that oversized aluminum rivets of 17/64 and 9/32" are available for aircraft repairs where a rivet has been removed and the hole has been enlarged.  There are special rivet removal tools that center on the head of the rivet to insure that the drilled hole is centered that I am considering.  I have not used one.  Drilling just deep enough to remove the head and tapping out the rest of the rivet might be something I will try to do to prevent enlarging the hole as well.  I have not had time to fully research whether the oversized aircraft rivets would be suitable for the Marine application with regards to alloy etc. But wanted to mention this in case it is helpful to someone with oversized holes.

Best,
James
SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On May 7, 2018 9:59 AM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

I drilled out the old rivets using a 1/4inch bit, James.

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
SM243

On May 6, 2018, at 11:42 PM, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,


   Can you tell me if the 1/4” rivets fit the original holes in your furler, or did you need to drill them out some?   I will be changing my headstay this year so need to drill out the rivets and would like to bring the correct size with me to the boat.

Thanks,

James
SV Sueño
Maramu #220

On May 6, 2018, at 10:39 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

I used1/4 inch rivets.  No problems with installation or in the 3 years since

Kent
SM 243
KRISTY





VLADIMIR SONSEV
 

James,

Do you know where can I buy  9/32" diameter rivets?

VLADIMIR
SM 345 "LIFE IS GOOD"


On Mon, May 7, 2018, 11:31 James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Kent,
   Thanks for this information.  I hope that I can put things back together just as you did.   I would like to put back the aluminum rivets since they won't be a dissimilar metal and cannot unscrew with use.  
   I am finding out by the way that oversized aluminum rivets of 17/64 and 9/32" are available for aircraft repairs where a rivet has been removed and the hole has been enlarged.  There are special rivet removal tools that center on the head of the rivet to insure that the drilled hole is centered that I am considering.  I have not used one.  Drilling just deep enough to remove the head and tapping out the rest of the rivet might be something I will try to do to prevent enlarging the hole as well.  I have not had time to fully research whether the oversized aircraft rivets would be suitable for the Marine application with regards to alloy etc. But wanted to mention this in case it is helpful to someone with oversized holes.

Best,
James
SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On May 7, 2018 9:59 AM, "Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

I drilled out the old rivets using a 1/4inch bit, James.

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
SM243

On May 6, 2018, at 11:42 PM, James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,


   Can you tell me if the 1/4” rivets fit the original holes in your furler, or did you need to drill them out some?   I will be changing my headstay this year so need to drill out the rivets and would like to bring the correct size with me to the boat.

Thanks,

James
SV Sueño
Maramu #220

On May 6, 2018, at 10:39 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

I used1/4 inch rivets.  No problems with installation or in the 3 years since

Kent
SM 243
KRISTY





karkauai
 

Interesting, thanks.  Where did you find the oversized rivers and removal tool?

Kent
SM 243
KRISTY


James Alton
 

Kent,

   I did not finish my research since it sounded like the 1/4” rivets might work for me so I did not source the oversized rivets.  I found some 1/4” (.255 OD) all Aluminum (alloy 5062 for the rivet body, the mandrel however is 7075) structural rivets at Fastenal with a higher shear strength (1300 lbs. min versus about 460) than the more common ones found at Marine stores and have those on order.  I will do some testing before using them on the boat.   I have some concerns about the 7075 mandrel. https://www.fastenal.com/content/product_specifications/RV.BH.STR.ALUM.ALUM.12.pdf

 here is what I found about the removal tool and the oversize rivets:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNq7EEAvvlA  Video of using the Rivet removal tool

http://www.cherryaerospace.com/product/blindrivets Mention of 1/64” oversize rivets



Best of luck,

James
SV Sueño
Maramu #220


On May 7, 2018, at 9:12 PM, Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Interesting, thanks.  Where did you find the oversized rivers and removal tool?


Kent
SM 243
KRISTY



karkauai
 

Thanks James, good info.

Kent
S/V Kristy
Kent,

   I did not finish my research since it sounded like the 1/4” rivets might work for me so I did not source the oversized rivets.  I found some 1/4” (.255 OD) all Aluminum (alloy 5062 for the rivet body, the mandrel however is 7075) structural rivets at Fastenal with a higher shear strength (1300 lbs. min versus about 460) than the more common ones found at Marine stores and have those on order.  I will do some testing before using them on the boat.   I have some concerns about the 7075 mandrel. https://www.fastenal.com/content/product_specifications/RV.BH.STR.ALUM.ALUM.12.pdf

 here is what I found about the removal tool and the oversize rivets:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNq7EEAvvlA  Video of using the Rivet removal tool

http://www.cherryaerospace.com/product/blindrivets Mention of 1/64” oversize rivets



Best of luck,

James
SV Sueño
Maramu #220


VLADIMIR SONSEV
 

Jams,

Thanks for the links, but unfortunately I can't open FASTENAL link and WONKEEDO link. Those are very important for me.
Cherryaerospace I can open but I don't see oversized rivets.

Pleese keep in mind that maximum rivet length that you can put in, is 23 mm long from the bottom of the head to the very end of the mandrel. If it is longer, you have to drill a second hole in the inner tube of the foil.

Vladimir
SM 345 "LIFE IS GOOD"


On Tue, May 8, 2018, 07:57 Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Thanks James, good info.

Kent
S/V Kristy
Kent,

   I did not finish my research since it sounded like the 1/4” rivets might work for me so I did not source the oversized rivets.  I found some 1/4” (.255 OD) all Aluminum (alloy 5062 for the rivet body, the mandrel however is 7075) structural rivets at Fastenal with a higher shear strength (1300 lbs. min versus about 460) than the more common ones found at Marine stores and have those on order.  I will do some testing before using them on the boat.   I have some concerns about the 7075 mandrel. https://www.fastenal.com/content/product_specifications/RV.BH.STR.ALUM.ALUM.12.pdf

 here is what I found about the removal tool and the oversize rivets:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNq7EEAvvlA  Video of using the Rivet removal tool

http://www.cherryaerospace.com/product/blindrivets Mention of 1/64” oversize rivets



Best of luck,

James
SV Sueño
Maramu #220


James Alton
 

Vladimir,

   I am on the run today but will get back to this soon.  Below is part of an email from my engineering friend in Aerospace that contains suggestions on finding the oversized rivets.  I have definitely seen reference to the oversize rivets on the Cherry rivet site so they must exist.  Here is the Cherry link again,  see page 7


  Thank you for the warning about the 23mm maximum rivet length.  I ordered two sizes from Fastenal since I was unsure of the exact grip length so I think that one of those will fit.

Jim,

There are many blind fasteners made for aircraft by Cherry, Huck, etc.  Most are available "oversize" for rework.  I've seen aluminum rivets with stainless mandrels.  Most achieve good shear strength by breaking the mandrel at the head end, and retaining it.

Best,

James

SV Sueño
Maramu #220

On May 8, 2018, at 9:28 AM, Vladimir Sonsev sonsev52@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Jams,

Thanks for the links, but unfortunately I can't open FASTENAL link and WONKEEDO link. Those are very important for me.
Cherryaerospace I can open but I don't see oversized rivets.

Pleese keep in mind that maximum rivet length that you can put in, is 23 mm long from the bottom of the head to the very end of the mandrel. If it is longer, you have to drill a second hole in the inner tube of the foil.

Vladimir 
SM 345 "LIFE IS GOOD"

On Tue, May 8, 2018, 07:57 Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Thanks James, good info.

Kent
S/V Kristy
Kent,

   I did not finish my research since it sounded like the 1/4” rivets might work for me so I did not source the oversized rivets.  I found some 1/4” (.255 OD) all Aluminum (alloy 5062 for the rivet body, the mandrel however is 7075) structural rivets at Fastenal with a higher shear strength (1300 lbs. min versus about 460) than the more common ones found at Marine stores and have those on order.  I will do some testing before using them on the boat.   I have some concerns about the 7075 mandrel. https://www.fastenal.com/content/product_specifications/RV.BH.STR.ALUM.ALUM.12.pdf

 here is what I found about the removal tool and the oversize rivets:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNq7EEAvvlA  Video of using the Rivet removal tool

http://www.cherryaerospace.com/product/blindrivets Mention of 1/64” oversize rivets


https://www.wonkeedonkeetools.co.uk/rivets/what-blind-rivet-sizes-are-available/:  Mention of 9/32” rivets but I did not follow up.

Best of luck,

James
SV Sueño
Maramu #220





VLADIMIR SONSEV
 

James, 

Thank you very much. I found oversized 1/4" diameter.  I want to get flush head, aluminum CR 3252.
Box of 100 is a minimum order.
What are you buying? 
Perhaps we can split the box 50-50. Are you interested?

I have some reservations on total length. It is 1mm longer than we have. Perhaps I have to drill inner tube. We will see.

Vladimir
SM345


On Tue, May 8, 2018, 10:46 James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Vladimir,


   I am on the run today but will get back to this soon.  Below is part of an email from my engineering friend in Aerospace that contains suggestions on finding the oversized rivets.  I have definitely seen reference to the oversize rivets on the Cherry rivet site so they must exist.  Here is the Cherry link again,  see page 7


  Thank you for the warning about the 23mm maximum rivet length.  I ordered two sizes from Fastenal since I was unsure of the exact grip length so I think that one of those will fit.

Jim,

There are many blind fasteners made for aircraft by Cherry, Huck, etc.  Most are available "oversize" for rework.  I've seen aluminum rivets with stainless mandrels.  Most achieve good shear strength by breaking the mandrel at the head end, and retaining it.

Best,

James

SV Sueño
Maramu #220

On May 8, 2018, at 9:28 AM, Vladimir Sonsev sonsev52@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Jams,

Thanks for the links, but unfortunately I can't open FASTENAL link and WONKEEDO link. Those are very important for me.
Cherryaerospace I can open but I don't see oversized rivets.

Pleese keep in mind that maximum rivet length that you can put in, is 23 mm long from the bottom of the head to the very end of the mandrel. If it is longer, you have to drill a second hole in the inner tube of the foil.

Vladimir 
SM 345 "LIFE IS GOOD"

On Tue, May 8, 2018, 07:57 Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Thanks James, good info.

Kent
S/V Kristy
Kent,

   I did not finish my research since it sounded like the 1/4” rivets might work for me so I did not source the oversized rivets.  I found some 1/4” (.255 OD) all Aluminum (alloy 5062 for the rivet body, the mandrel however is 7075) structural rivets at Fastenal with a higher shear strength (1300 lbs. min versus about 460) than the more common ones found at Marine stores and have those on order.  I will do some testing before using them on the boat.   I have some concerns about the 7075 mandrel. https://www.fastenal.com/content/product_specifications/RV.BH.STR.ALUM.ALUM.12.pdf

 here is what I found about the removal tool and the oversize rivets:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNq7EEAvvlA  Video of using the Rivet removal tool

http://www.cherryaerospace.com/product/blindrivets Mention of 1/64” oversize rivets


https://www.wonkeedonkeetools.co.uk/rivets/what-blind-rivet-sizes-are-available/:  Mention of 9/32” rivets but I did not follow up.

Best of luck,

James
SV Sueño
Maramu #220





James Alton
 

Vladimir,

   Thanks for the offer and I am glad that you did find the oversized rivets.  I don’t think that I want to use the flush heads because I don’t want to cut away any metal for the countersink so I will pass on your nice offer.  

   I have found that with rivets that are a bit too long that I can usually insert them as far as possible, pull them a bit with the tool which shortens the rivet and push them in the rest of the way.  You might try this with some scrap to be sure that this works on your new rivets.  The initial swelling usually starts near the end of the rivet so the shank should still be loose in the hole (thereby allowing you to insert the rivet further)  if you don’t pull on them too much.

  The rivets on my boat appear to be original so I am hoping that if I am careful removing the old ones that I can use stock 1/4” rivets.  I purchased the following from Fastenal:



Best of luck,

James

SV Sueño
Maramu #220

On May 8, 2018, at 1:29 PM, Vladimir Sonsev sonsev52@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


James, 

Thank you very much. I found oversized 1/4" diameter.  I want to get flush head, aluminum CR 3252.
Box of 100 is a minimum order.
What are you buying? 
Perhaps we can split the box 50-50. Are you interested?

I have some reservations on total length. It is 1mm longer than we have. Perhaps I have to drill inner tube. We will see.

Vladimir 
SM345

On Tue, May 8, 2018, 10:46 James Alton lokiyawl2@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Vladimir,


   I am on the run today but will get back to this soon.  Below is part of an email from my engineering friend in Aerospace that contains suggestions on finding the oversized rivets.  I have definitely seen reference to the oversize rivets on the Cherry rivet site so they must exist.  Here is the Cherry link again,  see page 7


  Thank you for the warning about the 23mm maximum rivet length.  I ordered two sizes from Fastenal since I was unsure of the exact grip length so I think that one of those will fit.

Jim,

There are many blind fasteners made for aircraft by Cherry, Huck, etc.  Most are available "oversize" for rework.  I've seen aluminum rivets with stainless mandrels.  Most achieve good shear strength by breaking the mandrel at the head end, and retaining it.

Best,

James

SV Sueño
Maramu #220

On May 8, 2018, at 9:28 AM, Vladimir Sonsev sonsev52@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Jams,

Thanks for the links, but unfortunately I can't open FASTENAL link and WONKEEDO link. Those are very important for me.
Cherryaerospace I can open but I don't see oversized rivets.

Pleese keep in mind that maximum rivet length that you can put in, is 23 mm long from the bottom of the head to the very end of the mandrel. If it is longer, you have to drill a second hole in the inner tube of the foil.

Vladimir 
SM 345 "LIFE IS GOOD"

On Tue, May 8, 2018, 07:57 Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Thanks James, good info.

Kent
S/V Kristy
Kent,

   I did not finish my research since it sounded like the 1/4” rivets might work for me so I did not source the oversized rivets.  I found some 1/4” (.255 OD) all Aluminum (alloy 5062 for the rivet body, the mandrel however is 7075) structural rivets at Fastenal with a higher shear strength (1300 lbs. min versus about 460) than the more common ones found at Marine stores and have those on order.  I will do some testing before using them on the boat.   I have some concerns about the 7075 mandrel. https://www.fastenal.com/content/product_specifications/RV.BH.STR.ALUM.ALUM.12.pdf

 here is what I found about the removal tool and the oversize rivets:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNq7EEAvvlA  Video of using the Rivet removal tool

http://www.cherryaerospace.com/product/blindrivets Mention of 1/64” oversize rivets


https://www.wonkeedonkeetools.co.uk/rivets/what-blind-rivet-sizes-are-available/:  Mention of 9/32” rivets but I did not follow up.

Best of luck,

James
SV Sueño
Maramu #220