[Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Alternator and Masse leak detector


Alan Leslie
 

Hi Nick,

Another possibility (and I completely forgot about this until I was reminded by a friend) is the little red light at the bottom left of the 24VDC panel.
If your 24VDC alternator has the standard automotive type internal regulator then this lamp is what provides the excitation current.
If everything is working normally, when you turn the key on, this lamp should light. When you start the engine and the alternator is spinning, this lamp should go out.
Have someone watch this lamp when you turn the key on and then start the engine. If the lamp doesn't light at startup this could be your problem...blown lamp or bad connection somewhere.

BTW the reason I forgot about it is that our little red lamp is disconnected as we have an external 3 stage regulator connected to the 175A Leece Neville 24VDC alternator (the internal regulator is disconnected) in order to charge (and more importantly not overcharge) the house batteries in a proper manner.

Good Luck
Alan
Elyse SM437


Alexandre Uster von Baar
 

Was the same on NIKIMAT SM2K #289 (and on a 1976 Aston Martin I owned).

Sincerely, Alexandre



--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 6/18/18, John Clark john.biohead@gmail.com [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Alternator and Masse leak detector
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, June 18, 2018, 11:30 AM


 









My SM#37,  with Volvo TMD22 requires a
rev for tach and 12v alternator to fire off.  Not sure if
it is right but it has been stable for last year.
John Clark SV Annie 
SM37enroute to St. Lucia.
On Mon, Jun
18, 2018, 9:46 AM greatketch@yahoo.com
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:















 










Nick,
There
are no "partial failures" of diodes.  As solid
state devices they either work--or not.  When they fail
they fail "open" and block current flow in both
directions.
It
is possible, I guess, you could have a short circuit inside
the alternator somewhere, but the chances of it working at
all would then be pretty close to zero.
Bill
KinneySM160,
HarmonieAnnapolis,
MD, USA

---In amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com,
<kwzy6vgkpvtfohjddjsrotobzwf2pjeafjwalhur@...> wrote
:

Hello
fellow Amelians,
I have had a great passage
to the Azores from Antigua (14.5
days). 
Some months ago I asked
 the forum about exciting the 24v alternator and was
advised by Bill to check the relay and excitation circuit
 which I did. However I still have the same problem that
the alternator needs 1500 rpm to "kick in". Once
kicked in I can throttle back idle and still
charge.
No big deal right.....well
yes and no I am beginning to think that maybe one of the
diodes is defective and that I might have a small current
drain through the alternator. Does anyone know if a diode
failure is compatible with the general history I have
described?
Why am I thinking along
these lines? I had to return to the UK for two weeks, so
when I left the boat last week I  checked the
"Masse" leak indicator that came up with a leak on
the -ve side. Unfortunately I had to catch my plane so I
only turned off the master red handles for the batteries.
Thinking that the batteries would be
isolated.
Now back in the UK, unable
to check the boat I am worrying. If I am correct, the red
handles do not isolate the chargers or the 24v alternator
from the battery bank. Thus if there is a diode failure on
the 24v alternator the batteries could be leaking despite
the red handles being turned off. This could be bad for my
anodes and prop for example not to mention the battery bank.
Does anyone know if the red handles isolate the 24v
Alternator or not. I can not remember 100% but I believe not
as when I was working on the engine one time I turned off
the handles only to discover the cables to all be still
live. 
To summarise what my
questions are:1. Is the excitation
history, i.e. reving to 1500 etc on the 24v alternator
compatible with partial diode failure?2.
Do the red handles shut off
everything? 3. Could a -ve leak as
detected by the masse be compatible with diode
failure?
NickAmelia
(amel 54 hull 019)


Patrick McAneny
 

Since several boats are the same , in that they need to rev up to charge, maybe someone could chime in and say if this normal or not.
Pat
SM#123


-----Original Message-----
From: Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Mon, Jun 18, 2018 4:20 pm
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Alternator and Masse leak detector

 
Was the same on NIKIMAT SM2K #289 (and on a 1976 Aston Martin I owned).

Sincerely, Alexandre

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 6/18/18, John Clark john.biohead@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Alternator and Masse leak detector
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Monday, June 18, 2018, 11:30 AM


 









My SM#37,  with Volvo TMD22 requires a
rev for tach and 12v alternator to fire off.  Not sure if
it is right but it has been stable for last year.
John Clark SV Annie 
SM37enroute to St. Lucia.
On Mon, Jun
18, 2018, 9:46 AM greatketch@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:















 










Nick,
There
are no "partial failures" of diodes.  As solid
state devices they either work--or not.  When they fail
they fail "open" and block current flow in both
directions.
It
is possible, I guess, you could have a short circuit inside
the alternator somewhere, but the chances of it working at
all would then be pretty close to zero.
Bill
KinneySM160,
HarmonieAnnapolis,
MD, USA

---In amelyachtowners@...,
wrote
:

Hello
fellow Amelians,
I have had a great passage
to the Azores from Antigua (14.5
days). 
Some months ago I asked
 the forum about exciting the 24v alternator and was
advised by Bill to check the relay and excitation circuit
 which I did. However I still have the same problem that
the alternator needs 1500 rpm to "kick in". Once
kicked in I can throttle back idle and still
charge.
No big deal right.....well
yes and no I am beginning to think that maybe one of the
diodes is defective and that I might have a small current
drain through the alternator. Does anyone know if a diode
failure is compatible with the general history I have
described?
Why am I thinking along
these lines? I had to return to the UK for two weeks, so
when I left the boat last week I  checked the
"Masse" leak indicator that came up with a leak on
the -ve side. Unfortunately I had to catch my plane so I
only turned off the master red handles for the batteries.
Thinking that the batteries would be
isolated.
Now back in the UK, unable
to check the boat I am worrying. If I am correct, the red
handles do not isolate the chargers or the 24v alternator
from the battery bank. Thus if there is a diode failure on
the 24v alternator the batteries could be leaking despite
the red handles being turned off. This could be bad for my
anodes and prop for example not to mention the battery bank.
Does anyone know if the red handles isolate the 24v
Alternator or not. I can not remember 100% but I believe not
as when I was working on the engine one time I turned off
the handles only to discover the cables to all be still
live. 
To summarise what my
questions are:1. Is the excitation
history, i.e. reving to 1500 etc on the 24v alternator
compatible with partial diode failure?2.
Do the red handles shut off
everything? 3. Could a -ve leak as
detected by the masse be compatible with diode
failure?
NickAmelia
(amel 54 hull 019)








Nick Newington
 

Well on Amelia the Alternator did not need revving up to kick in until a few months ago. So in my opinion it is not correct. 

You can look at the pulley ratio, compare the pulley circumferences of the pulley on the engine v the smaller alt pulley. if it is 2:1 then 900 rpm engine speed equates to 1800 rpm on the alt. Then check the alt specs for output at that rpm.

Nick

On 18 Jun 2018, at 22:27, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Since several boats are the same , in that they need to rev up to charge, maybe someone could chime in and say if this normal or not.

Pat
SM#123


-----Original Message-----
From: Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Mon, Jun 18, 2018 4:20 pm
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Alternator and Masse leak detector

 
Was the same on NIKIMAT SM2K #289 (and on a 1976 Aston Martin I owned).

Sincerely, Alexandre

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 6/18/18, John Clark john.biohead@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Alternator and Masse leak detector
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Monday, June 18, 2018, 11:30 AM


 









My SM#37,  with Volvo TMD22 requires a
rev for tach and 12v alternator to fire off.  Not sure if
it is right but it has been stable for last year.
John Clark SV Annie 
SM37enroute to St. Lucia.
On Mon, Jun
18, 2018, 9:46 AM greatketch@...
[amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:















 










Nick,
There
are no "partial failures" of diodes.  As solid
state devices they either work--or not.  When they fail
they fail "open" and block current flow in both
directions.
It
is possible, I guess, you could have a short circuit inside
the alternator somewhere, but the chances of it working at
all would then be pretty close to zero.
Bill
KinneySM160,
HarmonieAnnapolis,
MD, USA

---In amelyachtowners@...,
wrote
:

Hello
fellow Amelians,
I have had a great passage
to the Azores from Antigua (14.5
days). 
Some months ago I asked
 the forum about exciting the 24v alternator and was
advised by Bill to check the relay and excitation circuit
 which I did. However I still have the same problem that
the alternator needs 1500 rpm to "kick in". Once
kicked in I can throttle back idle and still
charge.
No big deal right.....well
yes and no I am beginning to think that maybe one of the
diodes is defective and that I might have a small current
drain through the alternator. Does anyone know if a diode
failure is compatible with the general history I have
described?
Why am I thinking along
these lines? I had to return to the UK for two weeks, so
when I left the boat last week I  checked the
"Masse" leak indicator that came up with a leak on
the -ve side. Unfortunately I had to catch my plane so I
only turned off the master red handles for the batteries.
Thinking that the batteries would be
isolated.
Now back in the UK, unable
to check the boat I am worrying. If I am correct, the red
handles do not isolate the chargers or the 24v alternator
from the battery bank. Thus if there is a diode failure on
the 24v alternator the batteries could be leaking despite
the red handles being turned off. This could be bad for my
anodes and prop for example not to mention the battery bank.
Does anyone know if the red handles isolate the 24v
Alternator or not. I can not remember 100% but I believe not
as when I was working on the engine one time I turned off
the handles only to discover the cables to all be still
live. 
To summarise what my
questions are:1. Is the excitation
history, i.e. reving to 1500 etc on the 24v alternator
compatible with partial diode failure?2.
Do the red handles shut off
everything? 3. Could a -ve leak as
detected by the masse be compatible with diode
failure?
NickAmelia
(amel 54 hull 019)










Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Pat. No it is not normal. I have had the same on Ocean pearl and through my rather practical life on other motors in vehicles of diverse types. The excitation circuit is faulty. This circuit feeds voltage to the alternator from the battery. When it is not functioning, as you have found, the alternator self excites if you rev it. On my tmd22 the excitation was activated by tuning the key on and was routed through a voltmeter. (The voltmeter was incedental, it just happend to be in that ciruit and was a handy way to see it was functional) You may have a different circuit but it will be activated by turning the key on. My 24 volt alternator is excited by a feed from the house batteries activated by a solenoid activated by a feed through the start key from the 12 volt starting battery.

Search from your key looking for a separated wire or a poor connection.

Regards

Danny

SM 299. Ocean Pearl

On 19 June 2018 at 09:27 "Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Since several boats are the same , in that they need to rev up to charge, maybe someone could chime in and say if this normal or not.

Pat
SM#123


-----Original Message-----
From: Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Mon, Jun 18, 2018 4:20 pm
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Alternator and Masse leak detector

 
Was the same on NIKIMAT SM2K #289 (and on a 1976 Aston Martin I owned).

Sincerely, Alexandre

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 6/18/18, John Clark john.biohead@... [amelyachtowners] < amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Alternator and Masse leak detector
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Monday, June 18, 2018, 11:30 AM


 









My SM#37,  with Volvo TMD22 requires a
rev for tach and 12v alternator to fire off.  Not sure if
it is right but it has been stable for last year.
John Clark SV Annie 
SM37enroute to St. Lucia.
On Mon, Jun
18, 2018, 9:46 AM greatketch@...
[amelyachtowners] < amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:















 










Nick,
There
are no "partial failures" of diodes.  As solid
state devices they either work--or not.  When they fail
they fail "open" and block current flow in both
directions.
It
is possible, I guess, you could have a short circuit inside
the alternator somewhere, but the chances of it working at
all would then be pretty close to zero.
Bill
KinneySM160,
HarmonieAnnapolis,
MD, USA

---In amelyachtowners@...,
<kwzy6vgkpvtfohjddjsrotobzwf2pjeafjwalhur@...> wrote
:

Hello
fellow Amelians,
I have had a great passage
to the Azores from Antigua (14.5
days). 
Some months ago I asked
 the forum about exciting the 24v alternator and was
advised by Bill to check the relay and excitation circuit
 which I did. However I still have the same problem that
the alternator needs 1500 rpm to "kick in". Once
kicked in I can throttle back idle and still
charge.
No big deal right.....well
yes and no I am beginning to think that maybe one of the
diodes is defective and that I might have a small current
drain through the alternator. Does anyone know if a diode
failure is compatible with the general history I have
described?
Why am I thinking along
these lines? I had to return to the UK for two weeks, so
when I left the boat last week I  checked the
"Masse" leak indicator that came up with a leak on
the -ve side. Unfortunately I had to catch my plane so I
only turned off the master red handles for the batteries.
Thinking that the batteries would be
isolated.
Now back in the UK, unable
to check the boat I am worrying. If I am correct, the red
handles do not isolate the chargers or the 24v alternator
from the battery bank. Thus if there is a diode failure on
the 24v alternator the batteries could be leaking despite
the red handles being turned off. This could be bad for my
anodes and prop for example not to mention the battery bank.
Does anyone know if the red handles isolate the 24v
Alternator or not. I can not remember 100% but I believe not
as when I was working on the engine one time I turned off
the handles only to discover the cables to all be still
live. 
To summarise what my
questions are:1. Is the excitation
history, i.e. reving to 1500 etc on the 24v alternator
compatible with partial diode failure?2.
Do the red handles shut off
everything? 3. Could a -ve leak as
detected by the masse be compatible with diode
failure?
NickAmelia
(amel 54 hull 019)







 

 


 


 


Patrick McAneny
 

Danny, OK , good to know, its always been like that and I guess with other things to worry about ,I never gave it much thought.
Thanks,
Pat


-----Original Message-----
From: Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Mon, Jun 18, 2018 5:45 pm
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Alternator and Masse leak detector

 
Hi Pat. No it is not normal. I have had the same on Ocean pearl and through my rather practical life on other motors in vehicles of diverse types. The excitation circuit is faulty. This circuit feeds voltage to the alternator from the battery. When it is not functioning, as you have found, the alternator self excites if you rev it. On my tmd22 the excitation was activated by tuning the key on and was routed through a voltmeter. (The voltmeter was incedental, it just happend to be in that ciruit and was a handy way to see it was functional) You may have a different circuit but it will be activated by turning the key on. My 24 volt alternator is excited by a feed from the house batteries activated by a solenoid activated by a feed through the start key from the 12 volt starting battery.
Search from your key looking for a separated wire or a poor connection.
Regards
Danny
SM 299. Ocean Pearl
On 19 June 2018 at 09:27 "Patr ick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Since several boats are the same , in that they need to rev up to charge, maybe someone could chime in and say if this normal or not.
Pat
SM#123


-----Original Message-----
From: Alexandre Uster von Baar uster@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Mon, Jun 18, 2018 4:20 pm
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Alternator and Masse leak detector

 
Was the same on NIKIMAT SM2K #289 (and on a 1976 Aston Martin I owned).

Sincerely, Alexandre

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 6/18/18, John Clark john.biohead@... [amelyachtowners] < amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Alternator and Masse leak detector
To: amelyachtowners@...
Date: Monday, June 18, 2018, 11:30 AM


 









My SM#37,  with Volvo TMD22 requires a
rev for tach and 12v alternator to fire off.&# 160; Not sure if
it is right but it has been stable for last year.
John Clark SV Annie 
SM37enroute to St. Lucia.
On Mon, Jun
18, 2018, 9:46 AM greatketch@...
[amelyachtowners] < amelyachtowners@...>
wrote:















 










Nick,
There
are no "partial failures" of diodes.  As solid
state devices they either work--or not.  When they fail
they fail "open" and block current flow in both
directions.
It
is possible, I guess, you could have a short circuit inside
the alternator somewhere, but the chances of it working at
all would then be pretty close to zero.
Bill
KinneySM160,
HarmonieAnnapolis,
MD, USA < br>
---In amelyachtowners@...,
wrote
:

Hello
fellow Amelians,
I have had a great passage
to the Azores from Antigua (14.5
days). 
Some months ago I asked
 the forum about exciting the 24v alternator and was
advised by Bill to check the relay and excitation circuit
 which I did. However I still have the same problem that
the alternator needs 1500 rpm to "kick in". Once
kicked in I can throttle back idle and still
charge.
No big deal right.....well
yes and no I am beginning to think that maybe one of the
diodes is defective and that I might have a small current
drain through the alternator. Does anyone know if a diode
failure is compatible with the general history I have
described?
Why am I thinking along
these lines? I had to return to the UK for two weeks, so
when I left the boat last week I  checked the
"Masse" leak indicator that came up with a leak on
the -ve side. Unfortunately I had to catch my plane so I
only turned off the master red handles for the batteries.
Thinking that the batteries would be
isolated.
Now back in the UK, unable
to check the boat I am worrying. If I am correct, the red
handles do not isolate the chargers or the 24v alternator
from the battery bank. Thus if there is a diode failure on
the 24v alternator the batteries could be leaking despite
the red handles being turned off. This could be bad for my
anodes and prop for example not to mention the battery bank.
Does anyone know if the red handles isolate the 24v
Alternator or not. I can not remember 100% but I believe not
as when I was working on the engine one time I turned off
the handles only to discover the cabl es to all be still
live. 
To summarise what my
questions are:1. Is the excitation
history, i.e. reving to 1500 etc on the 24v alternator
compatible with partial diode failure?2.
Do the red handles shut off
everything? 3. Could a -ve leak as
detected by the masse be compatible with diode
failure?
NickAmelia
(amel 54 hull 019)







 
 

 

 


Nick Newington
 

Hi Alan,
Thanks
Yes I have checked the belts, no problem there.
The rectifier may be at fault, I think. Will have it bench tested.

Re -ve light leak coming on at the Masse it will be a long process but I guess starting with the bilge pump, wc motors, Bowthruster, windlasses etc etc. 
Thanks
Nick s/yAmelia


On 18 Jun 2018, at 09:40, divanz620@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Nick,

Have you checked the alternator belt tension? If the belts aren't tight enough they could slip at low revs and therefore the alt won't charge.
It could also be a blown rectifier in the alternator...you need an auto electrician to check that.
The red handles only disconnect the batteries from the users on the boat. The alternator output is wired directly to the batteries.
If you have a rectifier failure in the alternator it is very unlikely that would lead to the Masse -ve light being activated. 
Diodes generally fail open circuit not short circuit.
The -ve masse light indicates that you have a connection somewhere between house bank -ve and the bonding system (ground). The most likely cause of that is something that is 24VDC powered and also has metal parts in touch with saltwater. The macerator pumps in the heads are the usual culprit, but beware of AC devices such as laptop chargers which m ay internally have -ve connected to ground and that will feed back through the system if you have the original Calpeda A/C pump...that is where the AC ground is connected to the bonding system.
In summary i don't think your alternator issues are associated with your -ve masse issue.
Good luck
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437,  the Blue Lagoon, Fiji