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[Amel Yacht Owners] CLIMMA AC on AMEL 54

Ian Townsend
 

Martin:

We installed Webasto brand AC in September 2017 in our SM. Three 10,000 BTU units. We have used them in Florida for a total of five months and in the Bahamas for about one month. They have a good reputation in North America and I am impressed with their performance and reliability so far (bearing in mind, they have only seen six months of service). Let me know if you want any further details.

Ian
S/V Loca Lola II 
SM153
Fort Lauderdale, Florida

On Jul 4, 2018, at 9:32 AM, luvkante@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello everybody,


I am sick and tired of my CLIMMA AC`s on CHIARA. They are constantly quitting their service. I had repaired them so many times since I bought CHIARA new in 2010: electronics defect, fan defect, heater defect, leaks and leaks and leaks........


Does anybody have experience with a new generation of CLIMMA ACs (if there is any) or even better: with a more reliable brand? 

Fit? Installation? Reliability?


I am ready to get rid of them.


Martin

AMEL 54 #149 CHIARA


luvkante
 

Ian,

Yes please , I would be happy to receive some more information!

Anybody with some longterm experience?

Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 04.07.2018 um 15:46 schrieb Ian Townsend smlocalola@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Martin:

We installed Webasto brand AC in September 2017 in our SM. Three 10,000 BTU units. We have used them in Florida for a total of five months and in the Bahamas for about one month. They have a good reputation in North America and I am impressed with their performance and reliability so far (bearing in mind, they have only seen six months of service). Let me know if you want any further details.

Ian
S/V Loca Lola II 
SM153
Fort Lauderdale, Florida

On Jul 4, 2018, at 9:32 AM, luvkante@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello everybody,


I am sick and tired of my CLIMMA AC`s on CHIARA. They are constantly quitting their service. I had repaired them so many times since I bought CHIARA new in 2010: electronics defect, fan defect, heater defect, leaks and leaks and leaks........


Does anybody have experience with a new generation of CLIMMA ACs (if there is any) or even better: with a more reliable brand? 

Fit? Installation? Reliability?


I am ready to get rid of them.


Martin

AMEL 54 #149 CHIARA


 

Sadly, it seems to be a trend that is progressing with the progression of technology. The older Climma Compact units made prior to about 2006 lasted 10-20 years with usually the only failures in Capacitors. There is a major difference in the electronics of a newer Climma Compact...so much so, that you would not recognize the newer electronics as being a progression of the older. It isn't just Climma, it is all refrigeration and Air Conditioning systems. I expect the life expectancy of those Climma Compacts made after about 2006 to be half of the earlier generation. The same is true with other brands.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970






On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 9:08 AM Martin K luvkante@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Ian,


Yes please , I would be happy to receive some more information!

Anybody with some longterm experience?

Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 04.07.2018 um 15:46 schrieb Ian Townsend smlocalola@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Martin:

We installed Webasto brand AC in September 2017 in our SM. Three 10,000 BTU units. We have used them in Florida for a total of five months and in the Bahamas for about one month. They have a good reputation in North America and I am impressed with their performance and reliability so far (bearing in mind, they have only seen six months of service). Let me know if you want any further details.

Ian
S/V Loca Lola II 
SM153
Fort Lauderdale, Florida

On Jul 4, 2018, at 9:32 AM, luvkante@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello everybody,


I am sick and tired of my CLIMMA AC`s on CHIARA. They are constantly quitting their service. I had repaired them so many times since I bought CHIARA new in 2010: electronics defect, fan defect, heater defect, leaks and leaks and leaks........


Does anybody have experience with a new generation of CLIMMA ACs (if there is any) or even better: with a more reliable brand? 

Fit? Installation? Reliability?


I am ready to get rid of them.


Martin

AMEL 54 #149 CHIARA


luvkante
 

Tx very much Bill, I didn`t know that.

What is your recommendation to me? My current CLIMMAs constantly develop new leaks and electric failures.

Thank you very much in advance.

Martin

Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 04.07.2018 um 17:25 schrieb Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Sadly, it seems to be a trend that is progressing with the progression of technology. The older Climma Compact units made prior to about 2006 lasted 10-20 years with usually the only failures in Capacitors. There is a major difference in the electronics of a newer Climma Compact...so much so, that you would not recognize the newer electronics as being a progression of the older. It isn't just Climma, it is all refrigeration and Air Conditioning systems. I expect the life expectancy of those Climma Compacts made after about 2006 to be half of the earlier generation. The same is true with other brands.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970






On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 9:08 AM Martin K luvkante@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Ian,


Yes please , I would be happy to receive some more information!

Anybody with some longterm experience?

Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 04.07.2018 um 15:46 schrieb Ian Townsend smlocalola@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Martin:

We installed Webasto brand AC in September 2017 in our SM. Three 10,000 BTU units. We have used them in Florida for a total of five months and in the Bahamas for about one month. They have a good reputation in North America and I am impressed with their performance and reliability so far (bearing in mind, they have only seen six months of service). Let me know if you want any further details.

Ian
S/V Loca Lola II 
SM153
Fort Lauderdale, Florida

On Jul 4, 2018, at 9:32 AM, luvkante@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello everybody,


I am sick and tired of my CLIMMA AC`s on CHIARA. They are constantly quitting their service. I had repaired them so many times since I bought CHIARA new in 2010: electronics defect, fan defect, heater defect, leaks and leaks and leaks........


Does anybody have experience with a new generation of CLIMMA ACs (if there is any) or even better: with a more reliable brand? 

Fit? Installation? Reliability?


I am ready to get rid of them.


Martin

AMEL 54 #149 CHIARA


greatketch@...
 

Our boat had the CoastalAir units installed.  The one in the main saloon is still going strong (after 23 years), the aft cabin unit died 2 years ago when the check valve in the compressor stuck.

We replaced it with one from MarinAire.  Pretty much a drop in replacement if you use the 8000BTU unit for the aft cabin.  

Nothing to report, other than it works as needed--when needed.  Price was excellent.  Delivery was quick from Florida.  Engineering looks good.  Time will tell...

No matter which unit you use, it helps to be sure that the system will work on either 50 or 60 hz systems.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


 

Martin,

Your question: The answer is as complicated and long as the progression of technology, which caused many (not all) of your problems. I firmly believe that replacing the units with Climma, or any other brand, will just bring you to a higher altitude in the death spiral toward failure. In other words a replacement will probably give you trouble-free service for 4-5 years before experiencing what you are experiencing now.

Some other things: I have witnessed on more than one occasion a technician hooking up gauges, and invoicing for freon when what he found was a loose wire. Air conditioning and refrigeration seldom needs freon or refrigerant. My guess is that something like 10% of the time that refrigerant is added or invoiced, does the system need actually need refrigerant. I know lots of people who will dispute this, but they cannot change my opinion. The older Climma A/Cs used analog controls which included mechanical switches, thermostats and relays...they also included 5 capacitors. The new Climma systems have digital switches, thermostats and relays...and one capacitor. These systems, like many other things are designed to replace the entire PCB when things don't work. It is another case where the digital system is lasting much less than the old analog systems. It is a BIG thing and it involves so much more than your A/C.

More to your answer: As long as the saltwater heat exchanger (condenser) and the compressor including the sealed refrigerant parts are working properly, I would attempt to repair, rather than replace. If you replace, I am not sure that today it makes any difference as to brand because none will last as long as the older systems. I wish that I could offer more encouragement. I am sure that you will find someone to tell you, "...buy brand X and it will solve all of your problems..."

Reverse Cycle: Think long and hard regarding reverse-cycle heating. I doubt that there is any significant power usage advantage. Your saltwater pump will last half the time if you use heat and cool equally, and there is the barnacle sea chest situation...and, of course, other situations.

I hope my opinions help you.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970






On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 10:57 AM Martin K luvkante@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Tx very much Bill, I didn`t know that.


What is your recommendation to me? My current CLIMMAs constantly develop new leaks and electric failures.

Thank you very much in advance.

Martin

Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 04.07.2018 um 17:25 schrieb Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Sadly, it seems to be a trend that is progressing with the progression of technology. The older Climma Compact units made prior to about 2006 lasted 10-20 years with usually the only failures in Capacitors. There is a major difference in the electronics of a newer Climma Compact...so much so, that you would not recognize the newer electronics as being a progression of the older. It isn't just Climma, it is all refrigeration and Air Conditioning systems. I expect the life expectancy of those Climma Compacts made after about 2006 to be half of the earlier generation. The same is true with other brands.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970






On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 9:08 AM Martin K luvkante@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Ian,


Yes please , I would be happy to receive some more information!

Anybody with some longterm experience?

Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 04.07.2018 um 15:46 schrieb Ian Townsend smlocalola@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Martin:

We installed Webasto brand AC in September 2017 in our SM. Three 10,000 BTU units. We have used them in Florida for a total of five months and in the Bahamas for about one month. They have a good reputation in North America and I am impressed with their performance and reliability so far (bearing in mind, they have only seen six months of service). Let me know if you want any further details.

Ian
S/V Loca Lola II 
SM153
Fort Lauderdale, Florida

On Jul 4, 2018, at 9:32 AM, luvkante@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello everybody,


I am sick and tired of my CLIMMA AC`s on CHIARA. They are constantly quitting their service. I had repaired them so many times since I bought CHIARA new in 2010: electronics defect, fan defect, heater defect, leaks and leaks and leaks........


Does anybody have experience with a new generation of CLIMMA ACs (if there is any) or even better: with a more reliable brand? 

Fit? Installation? Reliability?


I am ready to get rid of them.


Martin

AMEL 54 #149 CHIARA


Ian Townsend
 

Webasto FCF Platinum. Three 10,000 BTU units. 220/40V. 50/60Hz. This is one of the few brands that still have the dual rating.

March brand AC-5C-MD pump. 1000 gph located on floor next to fresh water pump in engine room.

Locations. One fwd cabin (beneath fwd part of the v-berth). One in main salon (aft portside corner of the horseshoe). One in aft head (behind toilet).

Draws about 14-15 amps when all units are running.

Total price for all of the above (not including other supplies) when ordered from Defender and delivered to Florida was about $5800.

To reiterate, it is still early in the lifecycle of these units and Bill Rouse's advice is spot on. It's impossible for me to say when they will begin to show signs of age. But I know that AMEL Martinique does install this brand. And frankly, if they only worked as long as CLIMMA then at least they can be replaced and the total amount spent for two sets of units (here in North America) would only equal the cost of ONE set of CLIMMAs.


Ian
S/V Loca Lola II 
SM153

On Jul 4, 2018, at 10:07 AM, Martin K luvkante@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Ian,


Yes please , I would be happy to receive some more information!

Anybody with some longterm experience?

Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 04.07.2018 um 15:46 schrieb Ian Townsend smlocalola@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Martin:

We installed Webasto brand AC in September 2017 in our SM. Three 10,000 BTU units. We have used them in Florida for a total of five months and in the Bahamas for about one month. They have a good reputation in North America and I am impressed with their performance and reliability so far (bearing in mind, they have only seen six months of service). Let me know if you want any further details.

Ian
S/V Loca Lola II 
SM153
Fort Lauderdale, Florida

On Jul 4, 2018, at 9:32 AM, luvkante@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello everybody,


I am sick and tired of my CLIMMA AC`s on CHIARA. They are constantly quitting their service. I had repaired them so many times since I bought CHIARA new in 2010: electronics defect, fan defect, heater defect, leaks and leaks and leaks........


Does anybody have experience with a new generation of CLIMMA ACs (if there is any) or even better: with a more reliable brand? 

Fit? Installation? Reliability?


I am ready to get rid of them.


Martin

AMEL 54 #149 CHIARA


Ian Townsend
 

I agree with Bill K. about dual cycle and it's one of the reasons we chose Webasto. Before deciding on this brand, I talked or met with many if the major manufacturers and several installers. Many installers say it's OK but most manufacturers are increasingly backing away from marketing or endorsing their products for dual cycle usage. 

Ian
S/V Loca Lola II 
SM153

On Jul 4, 2018, at 12:34 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Our boat had the CoastalAir units installed.  The one in the main saloon is still going strong (after 23 years), the aft cabin unit died 2 years ago when the check valve in the compressor stuck.


We replaced it with one from MarinAire.  Pretty much a drop in replacement if you use the 8000BTU unit for the aft cabin.  

Nothing to report, other than it works as needed--when needed.  Price was excellent.  Delivery was quick from Florida.  Engineering looks good.  Time will tell...

No matter which unit you use, it helps to be sure that the system will work on either 50 or 60 hz systems.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Jean-Pierre's MacBook Air <jgermain@...>
 

Hi Gang,

We installed Webasto AC in 2015 and are very pleased with the performance… except for the poor installation done by the turkeys in Turkey… works well after a review by Webasto tech.

Don’t ask ….

Jean-Pierre Germain
SY Eleuthera, SM007
Tahiti French Polynesia


On 4 Jul 2018, at 10:13, Ian Townsend smlocalola@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:


Webasto FCF Platinum. Three 10,000 BTU units. 220/40V. 50/60Hz. This is one of the few brands that still have the dual rating.

March brand AC-5C-MD pump. 1000 gph located on floor next to fresh water pump in engine room.

Locations. One fwd cabin (beneath fwd part of the v-berth). One in main salon (aft portside corner of the horseshoe). One in aft head (behind toilet).

Draws about 14-15 amps when all units are running.

Total price for all of the above (not including other supplies) when ordered from Defender and delivered to Florida was about $5800.

To reiterate, it is still early in the lifecycle of these units and Bill Rouse's advice is spot on. It's impossible for me to say when they will begin to show signs of age. But I know that AMEL Martinique does install this brand. And frankly, if they only worked as long as CLIMMA then at least they can be replaced and the total amount spent for two sets of units (here in North America) would only equal the cost of ONE set of CLIMMAs.


Ian
S/V Loca Lola II 
SM153

On Jul 4, 2018, at 10:07 AM, Martin K luvkante@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Ian,


Yes please , I would be happy to receive some more information!

Anybody with some longterm experience?

Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 04.07.2018 um 15:46 schrieb Ian Townsend smlocalola@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Martin:

We installed Webasto brand AC in September 2017 in our SM. Three 10,000 BTU units. We have used them in Florida for a total of five months and in the Bahamas for about one month. They have a good reputation in North America and I am impressed with their performance and reliability so far (bearing in mind, they have only seen six months of service). Let me know if you want any further details.

Ian
S/V Loca Lola II 
SM153
Fort Lauderdale, Florida

On Jul 4, 2018, at 9:32 AM, luvkante@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello everybody,


I am sick and tired of my CLIMMA AC`s on CHIARA. They are constantly quitting their service. I had repaired them so many times since I bought CHIARA new in 2010: electronics defect, fan defect, heater defect, leaks and leaks and leaks........


Does anybody have experience with a new generation of CLIMMA ACs (if there is any) or even better: with a more reliable brand? 

Fit? Installation? Reliability?


I am ready to get rid of them.


Martin

AMEL 54 #149 CHIARA









greatketch@...
 

Actually it was Bill R who commented on the reverse cycle.

Fortunately I mostly agree. I wouldn’t pay extra for reverse cycle, and we have never used it on our units. Of course we tend to stay where it is warm!

I don’t think having the reverse cycle adds a significant failure point however. So I don’t see having it installed is a downside. The biggest risk is that the reverse valve sticks and you are stuck forever cooling.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA

Jean-Pierre's MacBook Air <jgermain@...>
 

Hello Bill K,

We chose the “reverse cycle” and used it often when wintering in SO Italy.  

However, as you state, we rarely use ti.

:-)

JPG, SY Eleuthera, SM 007
Tahiti.

On 4 Jul 2018, at 11:28, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

Actually it was Bill R who commented on the reverse cycle.  

Fortunately I mostly agree. I wouldn’t pay extra for reverse cycle, and we have never used it on our units. Of course we tend to stay where it is warm!

I don’t think having the reverse cycle adds a significant failure point however. So I don’t see having it installed is a downside. The biggest risk is that the reverse valve sticks and you are stuck forever cooling. 

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Ian Townsend
 

Bill and Martin:

For clarity and when referring to my last email on this where I used the term "dual cycle", I was talking about dual cycle in the context of 50/60Hz (not heating and cooling).


Ian
S/V Loca Lola II 
SM153

On Jul 4, 2018, at 5:28 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Actually it was Bill R who commented on the reverse cycle.

Fortunately I mostly agree. I wouldn’t pay extra for reverse cycle, and we have never used it on our units. Of course we tend to stay where it is warm!

I don’t think having the reverse cycle adds a significant failure point however. So I don’t see having it installed is a downside. The biggest risk is that the reverse valve sticks and you are stuck forever cooling.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA